Robert G. Ingersoll's Vow
This is my vow as well!
HT: Andrew Atkinson
When I became convinced that the universe is natural-that all the ghosts and gods are myths, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell, the dungeon was flooded with light, and all the bolts, and bars, and manacles became dust. I was no longer a servant, a serf, or a slave. There was for me no master in all the wide world-not even in infinite space.If you have been freed from religious dogma then join him. "[G]rasp the torch that [he] had held, and hold it high, that light might conquer darkness still." What can you do on behalf of skepticism today?
I was free-free to think, to express my thoughts-free to live to my own ideal-free to use all my faculties, all my senses-free to spread imagination's wings-free to investigate, to guess and dream and hope-free to judge and determine for myself-free to reject all ignorant and cruel creeds, all the "inspired" books that savages have produced, and all the barbarous legends of the past-free from popes and priests-free from all the "called" and "set apart"-free from sanctified mistakes and holy lies-free from the fear of eternal pain-free from the winged monsters of the night-free from devils, ghosts, and gods.
For the first time I was free. There were no prohibited places in all the realms of thought-no air, no space, where fancy could not spread her painted wings-no chains for my limbs-no lashes for my back-no fires for my flesh-no master's frown or threat-no following another's steps-no need to bow, or cringe, or crawl, or utter lying words. I was free. I stood erect and fearlessly, joyously, faced all worlds.
And then my heart was filled with gratitude, with thankfulness, and went out in love to all the heroes, the thinkers who gave their lives for the liberty of hand and brain-for the freedom of labor and thought-to those who proudly mounted scaffold's stairs-to those whose flesh was scarred and torn-to those by fire consumed-to all the wise, the good, the brave of every land, whose thoughts and deeds have given freedom to the sons of men. And then I vowed to grasp the torch that they had held, and hold it high, that light might conquer darkness still. Link.
HT: Andrew Atkinson
29 comments:
Great. Thanks.
Ingersoll's vow take up the first and second pages of text in Victor Stenger's new book, The NEW Atheism: Taking a Stand for Science and Reason which John highlighted in another post.
The vow is deeply inspiring.
Thanks John.
The walls of my prison crumbled and fell...For the first time I was free.
It is a false sense of freedom that this guy is in at the moment usually experienced by those kinds who do not feel this drive toward meaning. Their lives are only built on uncomplicated assumptions about life and takes a great deal of it for granted being satisfied by their naturalistic world-view, and whow...they are really happy about that!
But as I said, it is a false sense of it. Dig deeper and think correctly and you find the realities different. Among some of us, our warm fuzzy dreams were only shattered when our assumptions were exposed to be shallow by the question of the meaning of life in our little box, the Earth.
Edson,
I just have one comment. Have you ever stopped to think about how what you've written might be perceived by someone who doesn't see things the same way you do? If you're trying to build a bridge, you're failing miserably.
You think you have some great truth, and for all I know, maybe you do. But if you do, you sure aren't presenting it very well. Arrogant, authoritarian rhetoric, full of pretense, all crudely disguised as sympathetic understanding is how I perceive your response. It's very condescending and lacking in any respect. Do you think that sort of response is productive criticism?
@edson:
"our assumptions were exposed to be shallow by the question of the meaning of life in our little box, the Earth"
That's only a problem if you think human language has the magical ability to conjure up realities. Why do you believe the word "meaning" has any meaning? Do you really have to answer a question that most probably does not make sense?
Dear Steven,
Have I ever stopped to think about how what I've written might be perceived by someone who doesn't see things the same way I do?
Yes. I'know about it. But I think it should work both ways. Atheists believe believers are deluded and lunatic because we see what they (atheists) do not see. They start blogs, write books, shout in the media ridiculing us about how believers are so creepy and superstitious to an extent of calling us deniers of history. Had they ever stopped to think about how we perceive the issues?
If I'm trying to build a bridge, I'm failing miserably.
I've never thought for a second that this is a business of building a bridge between us. And if it is and that I'm failing, I really don't care. All I care is that I'll expose any kind of falsity pertaining to what I hold dear to my heart, so much, with my whole everything.
Do I think that sort of response is productive criticism?
I was not criticizing. Please check out to my next comment on Piero.
Dear Piero,
That's only a problem if you think human language has the magical ability to conjure up realities.
Now this is strange. So you want to tell us that human language is nonsense and has no role whasoever to convey the realities. Well, may be you didn't want to mean this, and it was a wrong choice of words on your part, may be you need to rephrase this again.
Why do I believe the word "meaning" has any meaning?
Isn't this what I meant to say in my first comment? That atheists lives are based on meaningless foundations? That they are real nowhere men, living on nowhere places, making nowhere plans and knowing nowhere they'll end up? And that's your naturalistic view where meaning has no meaning at all! And for sure you dont have to answer anything about the meaning of life.
But not all people live that way. And as for these, certainly they've to answer about the meaning of all these.
Edson,
Ingersoll lived in the 1800s.
He was an attorney and an orator when oratory was considered an entertainment.
His views were contrary views to some of the religious zealots at the time. These would have included your Christian ancestors who thought it biblically sound to own other humans as chattel due to the scriptural evidence that this distinct race descended from Ham.
Your ignorance of American History seems to indicate that your faith provides you a ". . . false sense of freedom . . . experienced by those kinds who do not feel this drive toward meaning."
Keep up with your superstitions. They do seem to provide you with a nice arrogant writing voice.
They do seem to provide you with a nice arrogant writing voice.
Hi Chuck,
You haven't been commenting for a while and I missed you a lot.
Chuck, I'm not arrogant, I'm just confident. You guys seem to confuse between the two terms. An arrogant person is a bully for nothingness but a confident person lives through a well defined purposeful life. In short, his/her life has got a meaning.
Edson,
I recommend you read a few of Ingersoll's quotes and understand his position on furthering human and women's rights before you estimate the meaning of your life greater than his.
Get to know Mr. Ingersoll, you might like him.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/ingersoll.htm
You might want to remember what the great creationist William Paley said, contempt prior to investigation is a short-cut to ignorance.
edson,
Mr. Ingersoll expresses a very real sense of freedom a great many of us share. To me this reflects a deep understanding of our basic human need to explore and experiment to be emotionally fulfilled, and that the trappings of religions obstruct and confound such explorations. I think, too, it appreciates individual personhood and the fact that we are all unique. It acknowledges that our exploration and experimentation leads us to a better understanding of ourselves, our community and the world.
Mr. Ingersoll's rejection of religious ideas was an insightful extension of the recognition that religions reject each other's claims. He just accepted all such rejections and many of us follow his lead.
Robert G. Ingersoll was a genius in the same way that Charles Darwin was. Both were amazing observers of the world around them. Both used what information they could avail themselves of, made accurate assessments of it, and drew accurate conclusions that still hold today.
As mankind's access to information has increased since the time of Darwin and Ingersoll, we've discovered more and more evidence supporting their claims. Evolution, of course, is both fact and theory, providing broad explanatory and predictive power. Every day the mountain of evidence on which evolutionary theory rests grows higher, deeper and more solid. There is a similar mountain of evidence that supports Ingersoll's rejection of religious claims. Via many convergent paths - the media, philosophy, social science studies, demographics, crime statistics, etc - that mountain also grows higher, deeper and more solid each and every. Religious claims don't match reality and with modern information technology, we can spot and shine a light on the discrepancies.
Ingersoll and Darwin cut away some of the underbrush to show us a better way forward. Both saw religious thinking as an impediment to freedom.
Chuck, I've read the quotes of this guy. He was really an amazing and gifted guy, even by reading his quotes.
But, apparently, he wasn't free or a happy man as it is potrayed in this article-his vow. In most of his quotes he seems to be filled with contempt about God, the Bible and the Church and seemed to be determined to show how worthless Christianity is. This is not a sign of a free man. It is an indicator of an hopless desperate man. And if you idolize this man you are on the wrong track.
Let me post two quotes of purposeful, confident and winning people and one from this man you idolize so much and notice the difference:
Nothing could add to the horror of hell, except the presence of its creator, God. While I have life, as long as I draw breath, I shall deny with all my strength, and hate with every drop of my blood, this infinite lie-Robert Green Ingersoll
I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world - Jesus
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing. - Paul
Do you see the difference?
Edson,
The last two quotes helped empower a false sense of liberty by 11 Christ following states during Ingersoll's life-time which led to the bloodiest war our country has ever known. Ingersoll fought in that war and stared down the good Christian slave-owners who shared your world-view. His experience seems justified in renouncing faith and god when it comes to matters of morality.
Don't let your emotional sentiments keep you from understanding the historical scope and context. Christians in America claiming moral superiority due to scripture and their personal relationship with Jesus have helped engineer some of the worst human atrocities.
Chuck O'Connor said... "Don't let your emotional sentiments keep you from understanding the historical scope and context. Christians in America claiming moral superiority due to scripture and their personal relationship with Jesus have helped engineer some of the worst human atrocities."
But Chuck most likely edson just isnt interested at all in any of the bad bits that personal relationships with Jesus etc have helped engineer.
Whenever confronted with these things maybe the same type of approach of a ostrich always simply seems to work so wonderfully.
While Robert Green Ingersoll talks about some of the real truth he personally feels of these matters.Through use of his actual earthly observations.
Written words in old faithbooks have a much better ring to them and sound so wonderful,even if it might only really amount to little more than superstition and wishful thinking.
Thats faith.And faith would have us hopefully all act like a ostrich if possible when considering whats actually there for us all to be seen.
edson maybe might have been ready to pat Robert Green Ingersoll on the back and even welcome him into his home,should he have been fully prepared to speak only that what folks of faith in this world wish to be hearing.
Any other view is totally unwelcome,and any honesty without a faith backing is to be despised and hated.
Steven said..."If you're trying to build a bridge, you're failing miserably.
You think you have some great truth, and for all I know, maybe you do. But if you do, you sure aren't presenting it very well."
edson said...."Yes. I'know about it. But I think it should work both ways. Atheists believe believers are deluded and lunatic because we see what they (atheists) do not see. They start blogs, write books, shout in the media ridiculing us about how believers are so creepy and superstitious to an extent of calling us deniers of history. Had they ever stopped to think about how we perceive the issues?"
This ostrich type outlook doesnt seem to remind him that surely we are supposed to be actually seeing something a little different from the faithful that are supposedly said to be filled with the power of the holy spirit etc etc?.Though he says hes faithful and follows this Jesus fellow etc,still (only) the tit for tat completely normal basic human outlook remains?.We actually (are able) to see with our (very own eyes) like Robert Green Ingersoll also did,that faith is actually seeming to be worthless in reality.
And yet edson still has the gall to despise Robert Green Ingersoll, for reporting too honestly about that what he feels he actually sees.
Chuck as edson so easily despises those who suggest maybe folks of faith seem to be deluded,do you think he even gives it a second thought that just maybe the actions we actually see coming from folks of faith do actually suggest it?.Just as they have also continued to do now for thousands of years.
Still its good to see edson admit himself that faith makes little difference.That what is expected of atheism is exactly the same we should expect of those with faith belief also.
Don't let your emotional sentiments keep you from understanding the historical scope and context. Christians in America claiming moral superiority due to scripture and their personal relationship with Jesus have helped engineer some of the worst human atrocities.
Chuck,
You didn't seem to notice the difference between the quotes I gave. I wanted you to notice a difference in outlook and worldviews between folks of positive attitude and their negative counterparts. The difference in folks of winning mentality and defeated wimps.
Chuck, even though we are living in the troubled world, and whether you admit it or not, regardless of our religious and cultural affiliations, we are all responsible for creating the mess in the world. The subject of slavery as the worst atrocity of humankind should not make you blind to see the worst atrocities commited by petty atheists dictators as Hitler, Stalin and other communists thugs. They are all equally bad and you should be knowing that.
But the certainty of the existance of the hopeful future which should give meaning to life in this world has a far greater attraction than the knowledge of the evil experienced in this world. And you have no choice and that's where your bitterness and that of Ingressol begin. Confronted with evil, you cry for absolute justice but you deny it because you deny God.
But nowhere to run because God is real.
Edson,
Again I kindly ask you to put aside the propoganda you've been taught in church (or teach others) and learn history.
Stalin although marxist was not hostile to organized Christianity. In 1946 he gave thousands of rubles in support of the Russian Orthodox Church and in 1947 his contribution was over a million. His Marxism and desire for collectivistic property and probably mental instability drove his murderous rampage, not a non-belief in an authorotarian supreme being (he probably could have been more effective in fooling the rest of the world if he married his fascism with Christianity - see Franco).
Hitler never was excommunicated from the Catholic Church, the Vatican signed a treaty with him, American protestants adopted the America First protectionist political platform while Hitler rampaged Europe and Boenhoffer was demonized by main-line churches for his desire to assasinate Adolf. Hitler was not an atheist, he just believed he was god (much like Stalin and only one degree removed from George Bush. The latter wasn't god but he believed he had direct orders from god to liberate Iraq - as told to Bob Woodward.)
When you measure the history of atheism vs. Christendom the statistics of people killing in the name of reason vs. those killing in the name of Christ specifically (the Crusades, Inquisition, Calvin's and Luther's endorsement of burning heretics, and the Salem Witch Trials. Not to mention Hitler's ability to leverage the Good Germans Luther-motivated anti-semitism and Stalin's use of the Russian Orthodox Church) or God generally (9/11, The Hindu-Muslim conflicts in India, and the Hindu-Buddhist wars in Sri Lanka) then you will see the argument you make is laughable.
I don't buy what you are selling and find it to be a dishonest distortion of history and psychology.
You need to bring real facts if you want to be considered honest with me, not just a heart-felt delusion that god lives inside of you.
Chuuuck,
I was too kind to accept responsibility in the mess of this world but you have really let me down. I didn't expect that you'll choose to clench your fists and gritt your teeth in your sheer determination to protect atheists thugs of the 20th Century. It shows you guys are capable of doing anything, no matter how dishonest you become, when it comes to defend your worldviews.
I'm not going to repeat your blabblings of " ...the history of atheism vs. Christendom yada yada" that you seem to be drunken into. I'll only stick to what this thread is all about that you and your ilk have found freedom after you have rejected Christianity. I'm disputing that, that there is no such thing as "freedom" in your simplistic world view of living in this world irresponsibly taking a great deal of what God has gifted us in this world at the same time showing no honor or respect to Him.
It's not the question of bringing you the "real facts". It's the question of you living in this world in a disciplined fashion. I must admit that I'm having a hard time of being into terms with the people of ungrateful mentality.
Edson,
You don't know me and as such prove my points regarding the exclusive morality true believers embrace.
Here are some facts for you.
I am not an atheist, I am agnostic. I don't know what world-view you wish to define me by but, I, philosophically speaking, am a pragmatic secular humanist who finds moral coherence in the ideas of the enlightenment.
I consider the possibility of a deist god and find aspects of religious practice socially edifying (e.g. Social Justice, accountability).
I don't see much of the Prince of Peace Jesus practiced by modern American Christians.
I weekly attend a convervative bible church that practices expository preaching and therefore am exposed to the political beliefs and theological assertions of Calvinist Christians. I do this to balance my interest in agnostic and skeptical thought. It helps me consider others views. Do you regularly attend a similar atheistic fellowship?
I am open to accepting the claims of Christianity but find aplogetic arguments either historically ignorant or logically incoherent.
You might want to consider you don't know all the facts when you aggressively denounce those who disagree with you.
Edson, you can have all the meaning you want but your meaning is based on a myth. A myth just as surely myth as fairies and unicorns. You could find great meaning in the word if you dedicated your life to worship of the great unicorn. Mountain peaks and rose thorns would speak to you of unicorn's great magical horn. Prayer to unicorn would cure your flu after just a few days. But your meaning would be built on a myth. Just as yours is now. Better to be an atheist with none of this 'meaning' that you speak of than a false meaning based on myth.
Whatever you are Chuck, be agnostic, secular humanist, liberal christian or even a full fledged atheist, there is not much difference when it comes to the role you play here at DC. You come here determined to deny God the glory He deserve in our lives.
Tell me, being an agnostic secular humanist, are you any different with John Loftus or Richard Dawkins? Loftus is agnostic atheist and Dawkins is a staunch atheist. Loftus debunks Christianity and Dawkins fights God. And apparently, your role is to be a cheer spectator, see your first comment here in this thread. How different are you?
If you considered the aspects of deistic god who is intelligent enough to unleash such a massive but organized universe and complex life, and appreciate it, you wouldn't be siding with hawkish goons who even denies that he does not exist but rather you would have spent most of your leisure time trying to meditate how he managed to achieve that or even longing for the day he will reveal himself, if he is alive.
The Prince of Peace is not practiced in America? Your observation was also noted by Bertrand Russel, who once said, "Love your enemies is good advice, but too difficult for us". Actually, Chuck, trying to live like Jesus is not just difficult, it is impossible. But then that was the role of Jesus on Earth, to expose human moral weakenesses, so that, after showing us that He is perfect, yet we kill someone who is perfect instead of making Him a King, a Messiah, what follows is to long for the day when God will send us another Jesus Christ.
But we shouldn't only long for that day - when God will send us another Jesus Christ - we should despise also those older days of which we lived a lifestyle that killed Jesus Christ. This advise only for American Christians, but for all people all around the world including you.
Edson,
I find your theology confusing. I didn't crucify Jesus and, if your theology is true then I am the offended one. I did nothing to deserve the stain of sin and find it cruel and unusual that I should be condemned for a crime someone else committed.
We live in a country that sanctioned war against a country based on the personal revelation by our President from God. There is an estimated loss in life from 30,000 - 70,000 innocent people. I grieve their deaths and am offended by the illogical ideas that brought them. Your version of Christianity and it's non-falsifiable morality is consistent with President Bush's "higher father" foreign policy.
Your position serves you and your kind but it doesn't serve anyone else. Please provide some action that your belief motivates that empowers someone other than a member of your religion.
And, I'd appreciate it if you chose not to lecture me.
Chuck,
You have got to learn to rub off individualism on your part when you are discussing about world matters. I guess you are an evolutionist and you should be knowing that nature does not support your selfishness.
You did not do anything to deserve a stain of sin? How does Nature or Evolution support your rant? If you are a human born by a human, then no way are you going to escape human traits.
I understand your point. You mean you dont share the guilt for the crucifixion of Jesus, but then, you have no right whatsoever to accuse President Bush and American Christians.
If there is going to be any objective grounds of which we are required to collectively feel offended of something, we will also be required to collectively share the guilty resulting from such an offensive act. To oppose that is to oppose God and to oppose Nature and if you insist God does not lose.
edson said ...." Bertrand Russel, who once said, "Love your enemies is good advice, but too difficult for us". Actually, Chuck, trying to live like Jesus is not just difficult, it is impossible. "
Really?, even with the suggested honest power of the holy spirit being also involved.
No im not at all surprised having quietly observed many faithful over the years.It actually matches the evidence ive ALWAYS seen.
But one wonders why? faith believers have always made such a big deal of peoples supposed need to join certain special faith groups then.Kinda senseless isnt it?, if this loving of enemies is "too dificult" and even more being "impossible".
What good comes to this world with this shunning and separation and exclusive attitudes etc of faiths which have so often split and devided us,if this supposed holy spirit we are often told about really needing is actually unable to really change matters.
Because its been also said the road to hell is paved with good intentions,so intentions seem to count little.
What good then comes from faith beliefs? if faith believers are really no better.
Brings to mind this story..An Inuit hunter asked the local missionary priest: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" "No," said the priest, "not if you did not know." "Then why," asked the Inuit earnestly, "did you tell me?"
But as always it was really mostly all about power and wealth.
Chuck, Gandalf
You are not going to convince edson he (or is it she?) is wrong about anything. Give it up.
Edson, since the bible is the source of all goodness and mercy and your understanding of god is above that of everyone else here, would you please explain the following verses to me?
*******
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)
Here, I read that God says he creates evil.
*******
"The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." (Exodus 15:3)
Here I read that the LORD is a man of war. People who make war kill other people.
*******
"Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of
Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and
there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." (Numbers 31:16-18)
Here I read that every male child (among the little ones) was to be killed, as was every woman who has had sex with a man, but all the little girls that have not had sex were to be kept alive for the use of the slayers. They said use, and not wives, which means they were to use the little girls as sex toys. If they were just slaves it would have so.
*******
"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to
Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (I Samuel 15:2-3)
I read here that the LORD said to go kill everything and everyone no matter how old they are.
*********
"And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under the axes of iron, and made them pass through the brick kiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. So David and all the people returned unto Jerusalem." (II Samuel 12:31)
I read here that David used all sorts of horrid things to kill people, including axes, plows and saws and cooking them in brick kilns.
********
"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." (Hosea 13:16)
Here I see pregnant women being ripped up and infants being dashed in pieces.
********
Jesus said this too: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household." (Matthew 10:34-37)
Here I read that Jesus has come to send a sword, and has come to set families against each other. I think this contradicts the supposed teachings of a god of peace and love.
******
Thank you for your time. I look forward to your teaching me more about these holy scriptures.
Godless Vagabond said...
"Chuck, Gandalf
You are not going to convince edson he (or is it she?) is wrong about anything. Give it up."
Hi Vagabond.
Yes i do agree.edson actually reminds me of my own religious family quite a lot,so i realize pretty well that these types are very very unlikely to ever admit being wrong.
Its not hard to see edson shuns me, now not even being willing to answer anything i post now ive been excommunicated ..L.o.L..Hell my mother and religious families much the same,ive only been allowed to speak with my mother once in the last 32 years.
It no longer really bothers me if these types wish to be so arrogant and childish,but i sure wont let their arrogance (stop me from discussing these matters further).In fact it only serves to help keep me going.
L.o.L ....these types seem to have such a high view of their own self importance in this world,it seems they think shunning and excommunication etc somehow will end our lives through lack of their personal presence.If it was legal they might still even enjoy to burn us at some stake,but thanks to progression of humanity these days that would only see their butts being seated in some jail where realistically maybe all tyrants deserve to be left to rot.
Yeah sure ill admit life at times has been made a little more tough,but ive still survived (thanks! to the kindness of many non faithful and humanitarian folks help)and come out much stronger for it.
By the way thanks! those quotes you posted plainly show how the hard arsed faithful can often end up becoming the nasty types they so often are.
Hi Gandolf,
I'm so sorry if you perceived that I'm not taking you seriously. It is just that I was concetrating with one person in this thread.
However, I think you also need to learn that if you want really to live a happy life in this life, you must be willing to let your senses detect what Christians detects. Find the nearest credible Pastor in your area and ask your troubling questions there.
Or just read Dr. William Lane Craig's apologetics.
Or just set appropriate time, kneel down to earth and ask God to give you a meaningful life.
Things not to do:
Never spend most of your time with New Atheists stuffs. They are bunch of losers who just want to make scam money out of you. They're not going to offer you anything other than the same old insipid nihillism that has proved through history to be a failure. This world is built on the belief in God and sustained by the real Hope.
I hope you understand what I mean. I'll just interact with you any time in the future.
edson said...
"Hi Gandolf,
I'm so sorry if you perceived that I'm not taking you seriously. It is just that I was concetrating with one person in this thread."
Hi edson.
No i dont mind if you dont take me seriously, specially if im totally wrong.
And my guess/opinion that maybe you were just no longer on speaking terms with me wasnt based on this thread.
More that i mentioned quite a number of things you have said on a number of threads,and it just looked like maybe youve decided ive suddenly become the Devil incarnate or something.
But its all good if i only guessed wrong,i hold no personal hatered of yourself just as i hold no personal hatered of my religious family.Even if ive found it hard to really like some of the things they do.
Just as long as you try to understand my beef is with the religious beliefs,not really the people who sadly have been indoctrinated to follow them.
Like you said ..."They are bunch of losers who just want to make scam money out of you" well thats your opinion of nonbelievers so i dont take it personal.And if im Cheeky to believers its meant as nothing personal also.
Some people will then ask well why be cheeky,and i can only say hell mate i am sorry! but after the mindless madness ive experienced. Trying my best to see the funny side of matters has really become a type of survival instinct ive had to aquire.
But without wanting to sound like im being cheeky edson i find it hard to believe that non faithful folk really are these losers who want to scam money out of me.Hell if there was only believers like my family in this world,in my experience many times i might have really been done for.Up shit creek without a paddle!,so to speak.
Please dont try telling (me) now that there was wonderful mellower faithful folks out there so fully prepared to be helpful,yes ive known them but their kind of kindness was also always at a cost of enclosed expectations of joining them.
A cost i personally see as far to high when i live in a world that i can see all around sure seems to need a whole lot more real (honest) charity.
And no as far as i can tell? charitys really supposed to carry absolutely no expected payment or else it no longer charity.Well in the legal dictionary i looked at it seemed to suggest it as a gift,and do gifts often come with payment attachments?.
Hey im honestly glad that places like Africa receive help, but its that its done with a belief system in tow that worrys me.Specially in a world where if people dont learn very soon to quickly all learn to get on better,many folks are going to keep finding the charitable gifts they receive keep coming in the forms of bloody bombs.
And do you really believe divisive faith beliefs of this world have been such a great role model to help the average joe blogs & crims etc learn to be all more unconditionally loving of each other?.
In a world so long ruled by so many needs of belonging to some special group we end up in somehow,can we really expect the world (over all) to be so totally kind and caring?.
In my opinion, that really would have to be a fair dinkum miracle.But humans have been relying on beliefs in miracles,when maybe more brain use might have been better.
You have just finished prescribing who i should and shouldnt hang out with,with in mind i suppose that peoples actions can effect who we might become.
Well that i agree with, and so choose not to join specialist groups full of exclusive attitudes.Why because they dont bring whats good,smell the coffee and take a real honest good look around you.
So anyway most of all real glad we at least finally had something to say to each other.
Well, well, Gadolf,
How is New Zealand? There are some pretty good familly friends of mine in your little country and they have visited my familly home but we have yet to reciprocate. Hopefully, I'll have to visit NZ one day before I depart my tent to go to my boss Jesus Christ and my high ranking Church leaders, Peter, John, Paul, Jerry Falwell, you know what I mean :)
Almost about everything you wrote above was witty and I really have to respond seriously and carefully.
Firstly, I thought that it is important you know something about what I believe, according to the Bible. You I have read the Bible and I have recognized one character of God that I find so troubling on my part. Throughout the Bible God has presented Himself as someone without showing particular indulgences to believers over non-believers.
So often non believers have used this principle character of God to show that God does not exist, because "why good things happen to bad people and vice versa". Actually I have learnt that on the eyes of God, there is no such thing as a Christian is better than Atheist. To illustrate this, Jesus told His audiences that God loved even His enemies, that's why i rains over non-believers as it does to believers. And even in the Old Testament, there are so many examples showing that God raised certain nations, Babylon, Persia, Roman Empire, etc, to glories, partly to show that Jews were no special to Him and He could have chosen anyone to sing God's glory on Earth.
Therefore, it won't suprise me today if series of bad things happened to me (even though I've spent most of my time longing for God to reign supreme in every part of our lives). I really know I'm no special to God and I'm no better than anyone here. I didn't just learn these through the Bible only, I' ve also learnt them through my life experience.
But Gandy, no matter what, there is one thing that I'm absolutely convinced it is the RIGHT thing. That we are required to GLORIFY God against all odds. It may be a hard thing to do when you are confronted with evil, but still it is the correct and the ONLY correct thing to do. You see in most cases God's rewards our attitude but even if He doesn't, you still have to say "God, you know it is hard, but help me to come over this" and by doing that you are glorifying God.
You know, all this fuss about whether God exist or He doesn't is con be summed to be about the two forces that are opposing each other: One that wants to diminish God's glory(because it can't block it altogether) and the one that wants God's glory to reign supreme ever more.
Try to think about these things.
Thanks edson.
NZ is still NZ a little country far away from most other places.
Hopefully you can visit sometime,because we like visitors and overall most folks here are still pretty friendly.
I have thought about the things you talk about many many times.I still do.
It just doesnt make much sense to (me),thats the difference.And (i) cant see how beliefs that really dont make people any better,can really be thought to be helpful & good for us.
But anyway all the best wishes to you and family and friends etc.
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