Austin Cline: "Was Hitler an Atheist Who Killed Millions in the Name of Atheism, Secularism?
This post of Cline's was sent today to subscribers.
Myth: Atheism is more dangerous than religion because atheists like Adolf Hitler killed millions in the name of their atheistic ideologies like Nazism. That's far more than have been killed in the name of religion.While this is a good answer I want to inform everyone that Dr. Hector Avalos in chapter 14 of The Christian Delusion titled, Atheism Was Not the Reason Hitler Killed So Many People blows the doors off such a cockamamie idea. You'll want to get that book for this chapter alone, but there are other chapters that stand out as well. It's coming. Spread the word. The end of April. Publication will be on time.
Response:
A popular image of the Nazis is that they were fundamentally anti-Christian while devout Christians were anti-Nazi. The truth is that German Christians supported the Nazis because they believed that Adolf Hitler was a gift to the German people from God.
Was Adolf Hitler an Atheist?
Adolf Hitler was baptized in a Catholic Church in 1889 and was never be excommunicated or in any other way officially censured by the Catholic Church. Hitler frequently referred to God and Christianity in his various speeches and writings. In one 1933 speech, he said that "To do justice to God and our own conscience, we have turned once more to the German Volk." In another he said: "We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."
In a 1922 speech, he said: "My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. ...And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited."
Was Nazism an Atheist Ideology?
The NSDAP Party Program stated: “We demand freedom for all religious confessions in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or conflict with the customs and moral sentiments of the Germanic race. The party as such represents the standpoint of a positive Christianity, without owing itself to a particular confession....”
Positive Christianity adhered to basic orthodox doctrines and asserted that Christianity must make a practical, positive difference in people’s lives. It's difficult to maintain that Nazi ideology was atheistic when it explicitly endorsed and promoted Christianity in the party platform.
Communism and traditional socialism were both intensely hated by the Nazi party which argued that, as atheistic and Jewish ideologies, they threatened the future of both German and Christian civilization. In this, most Christians in Germany and elsewhere agreed and this explains much of the Nazis popular support.
Christian Response to the Nazis
Key to understanding Nazism’s popularity with Christians is the Nazi condemnation of everything modern. The Weimar Republic was regarded as a godless, secular, and materialistic, betraying all of Germany’s traditional values and religious beliefs. Christians saw the social fabric of their community unravelling and the Nazis promised to restore order by attacking godlessness, homosexuality, abortion, liberalism, prostitution, pornography, obscenity, etc.
Early on, many Catholic leaders criticized Nazism; after 1933, criticism turned to support and praise. Commonalities between Nazism and Catholics were anti-communism, anti-atheism, and anti-secularism. Catholic churches helped identify Jews for extermination. After the war, Catholic leaders helped former Nazis back into power. Protestants were even more attracted to Nazism than Catholics; they, not Catholics, produced a movement (German Christians) dedicated to blending Nazi ideology and Christian doctrine.
Christian “resistance” was mostly against efforts to exert greater control over church activities. Christian churches were willing to tolerate widespread violence against Jews, military rearmament, invasions of foreign nations, banning labor unions, imprisonment of political dissenters, detention of people who had committed no crimes, etc. Why? Hitler was seen as someone restoring traditional Christian values and morality to Germany.
Christianity in Private & Public
There is no evidence that Hitler and top Nazis only endorsed Christianity for public consumption or as a political ploy — at least, no more so than political parties today which emphasize their support for traditional religious values and which rely heavily on support from religious citizens. Private remarks on religion and Christianity were the same as public remarks, indicating that they believed what they said and intended to act as they claimed. The few Nazis who endorsed paganism did so publicly, not secretly, and without official support.
Nazi Christians didn’t abandon basic Christian doctrines, like the divinity of Jesus. The actions of Hitler and the Nazis were as “Christian” as those of people during the Crusades or the Inquisition. Germany saw itself as a fundamentally Christian nation and millions of Christians enthusiastically endorsed Hitler and the Nazi Party, seeing both as embodiments of German and Christian ideals.
Link
72 comments:
Once again, Jesus acknowledged and warned that there are those who abuse and corrupt power in the name of divinity. This would be an example of that. Jesus categorized these with nonbelievers.
As a rationalist, I am not only against religion, but I am against all forms of dogma which cause people to act outside rationality and reason, specifically those dogmas that cause us to hurt others, all the while feelings quite justified. Even if it were true that atheism has literally been the reason why people have done terrible things, this is as much the theists problem as it is the atheist's, because the theist has to accept, just like with so many other instances of cruelty and gratuitous suffering, that his supposedly omnibenevolent God allowed this to happen. By assenting to the fact that your God is incomplete controls, and everything he does (and allows) is inherently justified, then the acts of cruelty must be jusified, by extension.
There is no justification for any of it. Dogma is wicked, pure and simple, and should be confronted and opposed at all times. Religion is the most widespread and effective form of dogma that this world has ever known. There will come a day when we as a species are beyond these dogmas, whether religious or irreligious. Perhaps we (atheists) could spend our energy opposing other social evils, but religion is the battle we've chosen to fight, and it has to be fought.
Besides, in opposing religion, many rationalists find themselves opposing other social evils like sexism, homophobia, racism, etc.
I agree that Hitler seems to have been very religious. Even if he wasn't, he certainly knew the drawing power of religion, and the effect it could have over a large population. That is as much a black eye on the face of religion as Hitler having simply been a Christian.
Check out what Wiki has to say on the subject of "Kirchenkampf."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchenkampf
RJ Rummel said the Nazis were atheists also, in his book Democide.
I think they knew that because of passages like Romans 13:1-7 that they could get the Christians to go howling off to war. They just needed to use the right buzzwords.
It looks like the best way for a secular society to get rid of Christians is to draft them. They'll gladly kill each other off, as they did in WWI (check out the Christmas Truce), thinking they're doing the Lord's work, and never stopping to realize that the other side is of the same opinion. Totalitarians come in all flavors, and Christians are taught that the secular State is always right, "unless it tells you to sin" - a minor exception that unfortunately is rarely applied to war.
I wish it weren't this way, but that's about what I've come to realize, after listening to too many God and Country "patriots."
One "my country right or wrong" advocate of unquestioning obedience I asked actually told me that the other side should be following their orders also - nuking American cities, if they have the opportunity, the implication would be.
I don't think he thought this through, but he sure knew how to make his gun go bang, and he was damn proud of it.
"Once again, Jesus acknowledged and warned that there are those who abuse and corrupt power in the name of divinity."
Atheists warn of this too. Looks like we agree with Jesus on this one.
Or what Jesus said wasn't that profound.
Hi Joshua -- you said, "Atheists warn of this too. Looks like we agree with Jesus on this one.
Or what Jesus said wasn't that profound."
When one is told turn away from destructive behaviors and attitudes, they need something of value to turn towards
-- I think I'll stick with Jesus as my default for repentence--no offense, but I just don't think I'll be entrusting you guys with my life.
bye,
3M
In the past decade, the U.S. government has killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims in our name. Many Muslims attribute that slaughter to American leaders' "atheism." But American christians give that mass murder a pass because the victims profess the "wrong" beliefs about god.
if you didn't have your jesus, you'd have no reason to be convinced of your need for repentence.
Goprairie said, "you'd have no reason to be convinced of your need for repentence."
So, you're saying that there really is no need to turn away from the practice of antagonistic, territorial divisions??? That we ought to practice denial instead and 'pretend' as though humanity has no problems while complaining about problems??????? Hmmmmm...I think you're inspiring me to repent back to atheism...sounds like a master plan to me...
I think Hitler was kinda all over the map. Sometimes he appealed to God and other times he said things like "There will be no God but Germany and no gospel but the will of the German people."
MMM, tell me, how is Christianity, or any religion for that matter, actively making this world a better place? I mean, pretty much the second that Christianity became the religion of the greatest empire in the world, it ushered in the dark ages. We all know how that turned out. Then, you Christians are always so giddy to proclaim that this country was founded by Christians, on Christian principles, yet we average a major war every 20 years. In light of that, these Christian principles aren't really getting the job done.
Why should we trust Christianity for our morals, or any religion for that matter? I don't see the world getting much better with the passing of the ages. Secular law and democracy; equality among all people; governmental transparency and accountability...this is what the world needs, and this is strictly what Christianity will not give it. Accountability and transparency are strictly forbidden in Christianity. Equality is also forbidden, since the Bible is quite clear that there is a definite distinction between the elect and the reprobate. Christianity isn't going to usher in a better world. It's failed so far and it will continue to fail. Neither will Islam or any other religion. And, yes, neither will hostile atheism, hellbent on taking over the world.
Only a humanist mentality, recognizing our frailties and shortcoming, necessitating that we work together for a better world, will ever move this world toward a complete morality. Separatism of any kind will never work, and religion is the epitome of separatism. There is no supernatural power above that's going to bail us out. Only we can fix these problems, and once we all realize that, there may be progress.
I agree with MMM. The Bible tells us to love our enemies. People who have killed others in the name of Christ were clearly going against what Jesus taught.
Anthony said:"Only a humanist mentality, recognizing our frailties and shortcoming, necessitating that we work together for a better world, will ever move this world toward a complete morality."
Yea right! Is that before or after you give the police a week off? Your humanist morality needs monitoring constantly and a clear set of goals and rules or else you act like you believe, in the interst of self and to the whims and benefit of the survival of the fittest...
Go to your city hall and petition that the city remove all police offices for 7 days...we'll then see what you think of your humanist answer to all...
John,
You're simply studying Dinesh's argument regarding this as if you'll put a new face on Hitler...you know the truth...this guy was an atheist...didn't believe in a higher power or God (other than himself) and was so powerful that the church was compelled to honor him...he didn't fight for God in any sense or in the name of religion...he was a good ole fundamental atheist like Dawkins and the rotten lot...who by the way claims to be a "spiritual" atheist...whatever the heck that is!
Don't forget Dinesh will ask you to take responsibility for all of your atheist produced tragedy makers such as Pol Pot, Kim Jong Il, Joseph Stalin and even others...you can't hide behind Hitler trying to pretend when the atrocities of atheists (who were CREARLY athesits without question) stand out like a sore thumb.
mmm: "so you're saying that . . ."
not at all, but you never get what I am saying and never really try in your constant circular illogical thinking and talking. and you are fond of ascribing false meaning to what others say. so it would be pointless to try to explain to you what I was saying, tho to many it was obvious.
but your myth does require such circular illogic to support it apparently.
Whether Hitler is a Christian, was a Christian, or just one who used Christians they are all true in one way or another. Regardless if Hitler is a closet atheist or open atheist Germany at 1939 was a Christian nation. The seeds of anti-Semitism ran deep of all European Christians.
The German people at the time were educated, Christian, and had advanced technology of the day, to build itself out of the ruins of WW1 only to follow Hitler to a dismal end that question needs to be answered. Claiming Hitler is evil or Hitler is atheist is longing for a simplistic excuse that only masks the true events on the ground.
Do you really think if Hitler was truly open about his atheism the German people would have followed him or given him the divine devotion he received from 43 million German Christians? Of course not, his rallies were religious in nature. He was able to bring out the emotion of the German people. The frustration of loosing WW1, the endless punishment and abuse by the French and English festered in the hearts of the German people.
The problem is some Christians they need a boogyman like, Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot even though all three men were raised as Christians.
Non-Stamp Collector
Special Investigation - 20th Century Killers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZr-JZYctvA
The problem is Christians need someone to blame other than them selves. The Christian refuses to admit there were part of the bloodbath, they make excuses like: they weren’t real Christians or they are atheists.
Take for example the treatment of blacks as slaves and indigenous people of the Americas. These events happen way before my great grand excreta parents were born. Yet as an American citizen they are part of my history and part of anyone who decides to become an American citizen. Saying that this group of people had slaves, and they were this religion is moot. There were Americans that is the bottom line. I can’t escape that part of being an American. Neither can a Christian can run away from their past either.
So Harvey, Harvey… You can wave your Dawkins voodoo doll all you want. It will get little rise from me as well as your corrupted views on science and history.
Or maybe I am just making this up
http://www.reportcogicabuse.com/
Harvey,
Firstly, I seem to understand that prisons have been in this country since its inception, but weren't the majority, if not all, of the residents of this country religious in some manner? The knife cuts both ways.
Atheists and humanists aren't perfect, and neither are the religious. We all need help, and it starts with coming to grips with just how devastatingly equal we all are, something that religion vociferously denies, since some are chosen by god for favor and the rest, reprobate.
Unfortunately, religion doesn't need to explain its morals, just that they are simply from God. But what makes THEM right. Or is it just 'might makes right'. Another ridiculous philosophy that the world would be better without.
Get back to me when religous morals start making a real difference in this world; when you can point to the religious and show me that they are markedly more moral than the irreligious, because until then, I'm going to hope for a day when religion isn't considered the only source of morality, and certainly not the apex.
Either God's morals stink and aren't getting the job done, or they are perfect and God is doing a lousy job of implementing them. Either way, the whole concept that religion is needed for morality should be wholly discarded.
Anthony said this, "Only a humanist mentality, recognizing our frailties and shortcoming, necessitating that we work together for a better world, will ever move this world toward a complete morality."
Please define "frailties, shortcomings, better world, complete morality" - I'm interested in hearing about this.
GoPrairie - you are by far the superior person here, so if I were you, I wouldn't waste your valuable time in conversation with an obviously inferior being like myself.
Okay, that's all for now - looking forward to hearing how Anthony wants to play the role of 'god'
3M
As for frailties and shortcomings, how about this:
None of us have the absolute answers and we need to respectfully work with one another to be able to coexist peacefully. (How this is done; there are men and women world's smarter than I who work on this problem everyday.) Whenever someone claims they have an absolute moral law, it completely derails that endeavor. Whenever anyone thinks their way of living is inherently better than another persons, strife and incongruence is sure to follow.
As far as a complete morality, I don't know what that looks like, and neither do you. Only once we recognize that we need to work towards acheving this, will we be able to actualize what it is.
And as far as playing "god"; if only I had omniscience and omnipotence, I'd be doing a much better job than your god, without a doubt.
And if I couldn't have done a better job than this miserable effort we're witnessing, then I never would have started the damn thing in the first place. Unfortunately, the only ones playing "god" here are those claiming to be representing his "perfect authority".
Thankfully for all of us, the miserable, exclusivist, jealous, wrathful being you worship, doesn't exist.
Praise God for that.
3M --
Can't speak for Athony, but here's what I would do if I were somebody who might be worthy of the title "god".
Let's assume I have perfect knowledge, perfect creative responsibility and perfect goodness.
In creating a world, I really would have no choice but to create the best world.
I am perfectly consistent, which falls out of my perfect creative responsibility. I cannot pursue creativity for its own sake, because of my perfect creative responsibility. I would have to care about the outcome of my creation, because of my perfect goodness.
Now, turning our attention to this world, it would seem that the creator created a world of necessity and contigency, rather than a creation made out of perfect love.
This is a world where the great brunt of maintaining and expounding the reality of the perfect being's perfectness belongs to people like you, who seem to have a hard time convincing people like me to overlook or discount aspects of this creation, the work of the presumptive perfect being, that do not act as evidence to support the very existence of its creator.
I would not have left you in the lurch, 3M. In my perfect creative responsibility, I would have created a reality where the truth of correct goodness is universally accessible and apparent to all with a minimum of suffering and occlusion. When, in my perfect generosity, I elect to offer other personal beings an experience of reality, I would create cognitive tools that are designed to wholly experience reality (we have to assume that I am creating consciousness to order to share an aesthetic experience of perfect reality, because in a perfect world, the senses wouldn't have to be calibrated for survival, as they are in this world, where you can be eaten horribly by lurking badgers).
Anthony -- "Whenever anyone thinks their way of living is inherently better than another persons, strife and incongruence is sure to follow."
Not necessarily --- that kind of thinking can produce a resistance to receiving compassionate outreach. I don't ascribe to those who reach out to others with the foundation of promoting their own superiority (whether it is secular or religious outreach) but if one has experienced suffering and found a way out then that is good news to be shared. Of course some who view it as a pursuit of egotism are free to reject such outreach.
to be continued..
Then you wrote this Anthony, "And if I couldn't have done a better job than this miserable effort we're witnessing, then I never would have started the damn thing in the first place"
"Impotence in the face of disaster" and a desire to abort creative expression is one of the attitudes that I was rescued from by God. I used to be under compulsion and anything outside my realm of control was approached with fight or flight reactions rather than sensitive, whole hearted and honest compassion.
At any rate, I am running out of time for now, so hope to talk to you later, Anthony - it sounds as though you have a lot of compassion to share.
3M
MMM why does Anthony suffer the kind of OCD you describe simply because he rejects the pat answers you present? Have you ever considered how your intractable hyper-religious (and completely self centered) mindset just looks like another absolute tactic to manage and control all you perceive? It is more benign than the OCD you described but still operates under the assumption that everyone experiences what you have experienced. It is very unattractive and very arrogant.
MMM,
You don't appear to me to be self-centered at all. Rather, I see you as being centered on Christ and others and that makes you very attractive despite what Chuck says. You have alot of good to share from your experiences and I think one could learn alot from you. Keep up the good work.
MMM,
You're a very compassionate lady with alot of good in your heart.
Hi all -- Hey thanks Cole for the words of encouragement here -- I appreciate it although don't forget that I am eligible for God's grace the same as everyone else. And that's good news.
As for Greg: "I would not have left you in the lurch, 3M" Thank you! I am wondering if you could save me from this Chuck Conner fellow who keeps projecting his image upon me?? I think you may have had him in mind when you wrote this,
"because in a perfect world, the senses wouldn't have to be calibrated for survival, as they are in this world, where you can be eaten horribly by lurking badgers)."
Nah, no need to protect me from old Chuck -- gotta love the guy, afterall, I am getting great at practicing cheek turning here! Really!
Thanks one and all,
3M
MMM
Why d you come on this site? I see you seeking an audience you can tell about your particular control belief of why the universe is what it is and then trying to convince us that we need this same control belief. How is this different from what you described as your need to control all outcomes during your atheist days. I contend you've simply transferred your mental illness into a more communally acceptable delusion but the goal is the same -- ultimate control. I am not compelled by your arguments and find your "love" simply another control belief tactic. Your responses contain much defensiveness and therfore don't compel me to see them as anything but self centered arrogance.
Here's Chuck's comment, "Your responses contain much defensiveness and therfore don't compel me to see them as anything but self centered arrogance."
God loves self-center arrogant and defensive ppl - you ought to know that from firsthand experience otherwise He might have struck you down with lightning quite a few comments back....
Postscript: I think you are 'battling confusion' Chuck.....:-)
I am MMM. You are confusing and I am battling you. You might believe what you believe but I don't. I see it as run of the mill control freak emotional sickness. I'd suggest talk therapy to start and then maybe a mild anti depressant. OCD is treatable.
Hi Chuck -- You wrote, "You might believe what you believe but I don't"
There now, that wasn't too difficult, was it? By the grace of God, we are able to reserve the right to hold an opinion differing from one another.
Thanks for the conversation - hope your feeling better soon.
3M
MMM,
I realize you're eligible for God's grace like everyone else. I just meant that for the most part you appear to me to be a very humble and lovely lady. I guess I was wrong. I was just telling you what I saw.
I'd like to repeat Chuck O'Connor's question the Manifesting Mini Me.
Why are you on this site? You wrote "I think you're inspiring me to repent back to atheism" at 9:34 PM, January 19, 2010.
So you were once an atheist. And now you believe in Jesus. Okay. So then why are you on this site? Is your goal to change other peoples minds in the direction yours was changed? Or is there still enough doubt in your faith that you can't help but feel you need to test it to see if it's still strong?
You also say "I think I'll stick with Jesus as my default for repentence--no offense, but I just don't think I'll be entrusting you guys with my life." at 8:14 PM, January 19, 2010
A default position? Maybe that was a bad choice of words, because that sounds like you don't ACTUALLY believe the way Jesus wants you to. You're belief is just backup, which doesn't actually sound like TRUE belief. The second part about how it's because you don't entrust us with your life, well that also seems like a safety reason for "believing" in Jesus, or at least saying you believe. Again though, a safety measure is not true belief.
So because of this, I ask why you're on this site. Maybe you're on this site for a different reason than my suggestions above. I'd just like to know. I'm not asking as a way to trap you. Honestly I am just curious.
To clarify,
My request for wanting to know why MMM was on this site was not rhetorical either. I'd like to know why she is here.
I might ask you the same, Chuck and Magnumdb ---but I believe that some ppl do what they enjoy while others are under compulsion to be involved. There are those who think if they approach others with an interrogative stance that they might succeed in inciting a defensive attitude. I am not intimidated by interrogators nor defensive. Since you are pro at projecting your vision on me, I'll just bypass answering and let you conjure up an answer on my behalf, okay? That way you can reveal more of yourself here with your projections. go for it.....
MMM,
I come to this site because over the last year and a half I've been deconverting from Christianity and want to come to a place that offers entry-level philosophy of religion discussions. I come here to learn and challenge my beliefs.
I'm not intimidated by you. I find your behavior and attitudes offensive but, common-place and frankly have learned little about reality from your perspective. I have learned that you have chosen a fairly standard American control belief within Evangelical Christianity that allows you to mitigate what you desribed as standard OCD (pre-Christian conversion). And I assume you come here because you believe it affords you an opportunity to perform Christ's instruction within the Great Commission.
Okey doke, Chuck, whatever you say.
Good day to you,
3M
MMM,
So are you more of a great commission or great commandment Christian?
MMM seems to think she has a window into the souls of others, and usually I wouldn't take much offense to that, but on another post on this site, she seems to make the rather bold proclamation, that former Christians were never Christians in the first place. This certainly may be true for some people, but as a general rule, nothing could be farther from the truth. And when she, even in a roundabout fashion, insinuates that I truly never believed, I take that very personally, since deconverting from Christianity has been the single hardest struggle in my life (I'm lucky that that's the hardest struggle, but it has been devastating, nonetheless).
Anyway, to dovetail that into Chuck and magnumdb's point, MMM seems to have found the "truth" and is quite certain that the rest of us here are either completely blind or obstinately keeping our eyes closed as we feel our way around the world. If this be her conviction, then I'm curious why we never read of her trying to appeal to us to turn away from our beliefs. Certainly our beliefs are destined to lead us to some kind of ultimate destruction. Why doesn't MMM seem to convey the spirit of love she so vociferously panders on about? As much as I despise hearing it over and over again from Christians, at least those who plead with me to repent and believe are being honest to the teachings of their Scriptures, but we rarely hear that from MMM (or Cole, for that matter).
All I see is a highly religious person who wants the rest of us to know that no matter what we say, she is secure in her beliefs and traditions. While she has every right in the world to bring this to us, I hope she knows that it doesn't do very much to convince us of this eternal love that she professes to have found.
It just reminds me of the close minded, self-congratulatory, self-righteous nature that I once had. There is nothing more troubling to me than the fact that I used to go on witnessing missions and tell people they were lost and headed for hell, unless they turned to God.
The absolute arrogance of it!! How fortunate I am that I allowed myself to be completely overwhelmed by the abhorrently repugnant nature of Christian dogma and exclusivism, opening the door to escape.
My hope is that MMM finds that door, as well as Cole and any other Christian that wanders onto this site. They have talents and a way with words, I feel that they are wasting their lives.
Well said Anthony.
Anthony,
I've told people before that if they don't repent then they will perish. I certainly don't mean to sound arrogant when I do. That's why I just tell people what has worked for me. I try not to be too preachy and that's why I always state what has worked for me instead. I try not to be too dogmatic in my beliefs.
As for MMM, I think you have her all wrong. She's a very humble lady from what I've observed and she has a very good and compassionate heart. I don't always agree with her on everything and I know she's not perfect and I'm sure she has her moments like everybody else. But for the most part she is a very lovely lady who has a heart of gold. That's just what I see in her.
Truth by it's very nature is narrow. The question is have I found it. I don't know. There's alot of things in the Bible I don't like. I think I may be going back to Theism in general but I'm not sure yet. Christ is just too lovely and beautiful to me.
Hi Cole, Anthony, Chuck ---
This is from Chuck, "So are you more of a great commission or great commandment Christian"
Chuck, I have no clue what those terms refer to. I just believe God loves humanity in all its varied stages and expressions of life. But I also acknowledge that not all ppl love Him in return, which is where I came from.
Then, to Anthony and Cole -- Jesus referred to a narrow path -- and I suppose it can be viewed as one that is exclusive in that it is all-inclusive. God's definition of exclusive is all-inclusive. But not everyone is comfortable with that or respects that, ergot, these destructive territorial divides that crop up throughout the history of mankind.
At any rate, I respect that God loves all of you, but would you have a problem with acknowledging that He loves me? Just wondering....
Take care,
3M
MMM,
You know I believe God loves you.
And I care for you as well.
MMM
I'm sure your God loves you but I don't believe your God exists.
I think you have eyes to see and ears to hear Cole --- Chuck, I don't need your affirmation of God's love, but you might be the one to benefit from thinking about who you may meet in the here and now that would keep you out of heaven.
That's all for now -- good night!
3M
MMM
I don't have a clue to your meaning and perceive it as a divisive threat connected to an eternal punishment. I thought you disagreed with the practice of using religious ideas as a means to dividing humanity. Where's the love 3M? Just because I don't believe in your personal God, I don't get into Heaven? That kind of seems like common religion to me. The kind you consider condemning.
Hi again, Chuck! I recognize this attitude,
"Where's the love 3M? Just because I don't believe in your personal God, I don't get into Heaven? That kind of seems like common religion to me. The kind you consider condemning."
So, let me ask you this -- why would you want to spend time with those for whom you hold so little esteem? I do not feel you are condemned, but you would not like to be hanging around with me. Hypocrisy is the practice of double standards -- eg, "I want to condemn, but I won't be condemned" It doesn't work.
God reserves the right to put a boundary on those who insist upon mischaracterizing (very condemning) Him -- I do too. I think there is a parable about servants and talents and one servant was categorized as a nonbeliever because he kept projecting his personality upon God instead of challenging the worldly system of abusiveness. God allowed the man his vision --but in a place where it was appropriate (Jesus did indicate that there is another 'father' - one who punishes those who obey him).
I do not have to adhere to destructive double standards and nor does anyone else. However if someone invites you to a different way, it is sufficient to say that you reject it.
ttyl,
3M
MMM,
You said, "God reserves the right to put a boundary on those who insist upon mischaracterizing (very condemning) Him -- I do too."
You also said, "I used to be under compulsion and anything outside my realm of control was approached with fight or flight reactions rather than sensitive, whole hearted and honest compassion."
I don't see how your gate-keeper mentality for Heaven and your absolute understanding of who God will let in (based on your idiosyncratic theology) is any different than the former compulsions you said you are now free of.
My opinion remains. You've traded one OCD heuristic for another. That's all. There's little goodness, truth or "love" in any of it. There is however, an indestructible belief system that allows you to feel you have mastered all those things.
You speak of the horrors people create by holding fast to their belief systems thereby erecting territorial divides but, because I believe your religion is a fiction define me as one unworthy of Heaven.
Why do you have one set of rules where the world is judged and another contradictory set of rules for your own behavior and treatment of others?
Just wondering MMM.
@Chuck O'Connor
There is one thing for a Christian to tell you that a non-believer is going to hell because he / she is not responsible for putting people into hell God is.
Now MMM what if God asked you to do the dirty work? What if God asked you to separate the Christian from non-Christan and you would have to push them into the pit. You get to watch them as they suffer in hell.
Could you do it? Could you a Christian who believes in Heaven and hell push your fellows in thue pit for not believing in the same God as you
Could you do it?
Hi Chuck - you said, "I believe your religion is a fiction define me as one unworthy of Heaven."
Your interpretation of what I am saying is consistent with nonbelief. I do not think you are unworthy of heaven, but you reject it. You seem to want to corrupt the idea of heaven with hypocrisy and emotional bullying - neither of those are allowed - do you want to surrender those attitudes or do you want to embrace them? I personally think they are heavy loads to carry.
Jonathan asked this, "Now MMM what if God asked you to do the dirty work? What if God asked you to separate the Christian from non-Christan and you would have to push them into the pit. You get to watch them as they suffer in hell."
Jonathan listen --- I have already begun practicing putting a boundary on hell in the here and now -- if someone holds me in contempt and is abusive, and I am not allowed to put up a spiritual, mental, emotional or physical boundary, I will become subjugated by abusiveness and cooperate with it. Believe me, if someone holds you in contempt, you will not be a source of influence to them. But, by putting a boundary and rejecting abuse and walking away from it, the odds increase that the other person may follow you out of it and begin to reject it as well.
I do now put up a boundary on ppl who hold me in contempt and you should as well. Ppl who prefer darkness don't want heaven. They just don't. The kingdom of heaven is within - if you take offense at what you perceive to be condemning, just make sure you aren't coopted by condemnation yourself. victimhood and victimizing roles are surrendered before entering into heaven.
If I am of no influence in inspiring someone to give up punishing and condemning ways, they will reject heaven - so it isn't entirely my or God's descision -- it is a heartfelt preference, that one is not able to surrender. God will love someone even if they hate Him - He isn't corrupted by it --- but He also protects. So destruction is allowed to play itsself out in the lives of ppl who embrace it - just not in heaven.
Okay, that's all for now,
3M
MMM,
You don't know my perspective on Heaven all you know is it isn't yours and based on that limited knowledge you deduce that I, ". . . want to corrupt the idea of heaven with hypocrisy and emotional bullying - neither of those are allowed - do you want to surrender those attitudes or do you want to embrace them? I personally think they are heavy loads to carry."
I reject your particular supernaturalism, that is all. Your responses continue to show that your beliefs allow you a comfortable place where you can quickly judge the morality of others who disagree with you. That is called a control belief.
I again perceive your theology as nothing more than a new version of an old behavior you told us was a problem before your conversion.
I wish you well MMM but don't see the ideas you hold as beneficial to anybody but you and your compulsive need to control.
Hi Chuck - that is fine --- I don't have a problem with ppl simply rejecting what I say, it is the misconstuction that I am trying to reframe.
You also said, "You don't know my perspective on Heaven" I'd love to hear what that is. Would you be willing to share???
Thx,
3M
MMM
I don't have a perspective on Heaven. I develop perspectives on observable phenomenon, anything else is wishful thinking and I don't believe practicing that leads to a mature ethic or intellect.
Okay Chuck - thanks.
3M
You're welcome.
I wish you well and hold nothing against you personally but, believe the ideas you've presented here are hypocritical and dangerous. I oppose them.
I hope that your desire for equality motivates you to base it on our innate abilities to reason and not on ancient theology therefore enabling true justice for all (not those who happen to agree with your religion).
Hi Chuck! You wrote, "I hope that your desire for equality motivates you to base it on our innate abilities to reason"
Actually, faith is the higher call than justice --- the goal is to relinquish the roles of victim and victimizer.
then you continued, "and not on ancient theology therefore enabling true justice for all (not those who happen to agree with your religion)."
If faith were solely the influence
of an ancient theology, I would have remained an atheist, but as it is, there is a God Who, (thankfully!) defies all the human natured projections and misunderstandings we cast upon His image. He continues to love even in the face of enmity.
You also said, "I wish you well and hold nothing against you personally but, believe the ideas you've presented here are hypocritical and dangerous. I oppose them."
I'm glad you wish me well - I do the same for you - we are mutual in this regard. Afterall, I hope not to keep anyone from entering into heaven when they see me! If that is a dangerous and hypocritical idea, then I think that is an interesting standard.
At any rate, Chuck, nice talking to you!
3M
MMM.
It is hypocritical to say you love all but then judge those not agreeing with your idiosyncratic religion and faith as being somehow spiritually inferior.
You say you are humble but hole an epistemology that guarantees you are an elitist.
I'm sure it makes you feel good but seems very insincere when you present it.
Hi Chuck --- after this comment, if you want to continue, I can come over to your blog.
But you said this, "
It is hypocritical to say you love all but then judge those not agreeing with your idiosyncratic religion and faith as being somehow spiritually inferior."
Okay for one thing, I do not, myself, claim to "love all" - I have said before that I do not love all as God does, but I respect that He does and that I hope to increase my capacity to love many more. So, while I personally cannot claim divinity as my own personae, I embrace the One Who is divine and He leads and grows me towards kindness to others. BTW, I feel confident that He does love you, Chuck - I'm warming up to that but it is a process and sometimes I'm slow to mature. Once I reach maturation, would I be willing to be martyred for you? Well, I'm not there yet but who knows? Stay tuned.....
The other part of your comment about me judging others as spiritually inferior is a projection coming from you --- I had to learn this as well, but there is a difference between acknowledging and addressing enmity and judging/condemning it. I acknowledge that there are those who harbor ill will towards themselves and others, but if I love and respect God, I will eventually love and respect your wishes as well. I do not judge but acknowledge that enmity exists--God's enemies are condemners and cloners, intimidated by diversity --- At any rate, thx for the conversation.
Thx,
3M
MMM,
Feel free to come to my blog.
Your explanations are comically circular. You don't condemn anyone you just assert that, " . . . God's enemies are condemners and cloners, intimidated by diversity."
Who told you this absolute truth? God? Or did you come to this on your own? Can you help me out here. I only see in this an arrogant display of your idiosyncratic Christianity and an abundance of judgment.
You say you invite people to come to your god but if one such as me finds your arguments less than compelling you dub me one of "God's enemies". Thanks but no thanks.
Oh and by the way I am not projecting. I don't hold any absolute beliefs that presupposes the knowledge of God. I determine your ideas bad because they look to seize authority with nothing more than wishful thinking and anxious emotionalism.
Chuck, I think I will part ways with you on this convo --the best to you in all your endeavors,
3M
3M,
Would you be so gracious to write a short on your conversion from atheism for my site? I would be glad to feature it in a post.
Wise men and women leave the bankrupt ideology of atheism every day and I'd like to pick up more stories and testimonies to feature.
If so click my link and email me. Thanks.
Harvey
atheism is not the only choice when your form of religion presents itself suspect.
The idea that Hitler was a Christian, or anything even resembling a Christian, is one of those icons of internet atheism, but is false nonetheless. It would seem that anyone who has read anything at all about Hitler would be struck by the fact that he would say or do absolutely *anything* to achieve his ends. Two well-known episodes easily illustrate this, the first being his relationship with SA leader Ernst Rohm. When writing to Rohm, Hitler would use "...my dearest Rohm...". They were known to embrace in public, he addressed Hitler in a more casual fashion than others were allowed to. He was murdered on the personal orders of Hitler himself. The second incident is Hitler giving a speech invoking the name of God and wishing his blessings upon Germany, while at the same time knowing the expulsion of some Poles, including old men, women and children would end in their deaths. Folks, this isn't a hard one to see. He was unbalanced. He was at least as unbalanced as a man saying he loves his wife even though he cheats and abuses her. The really interesting question though, is why are atheists so hell-bent to make Hitler a Christian?
For those interested, John Toland's two volume biography of Hitler is the best I have ever read and is considered by some historians as the best on the subject.
Hello Supt. Harvey!
I am honored by your request. Writing, for me, is not yet a well honed skill as those here will testify and I'm not confident that my time is come yet to share the specifics of what happened to me, but as God enables, I will definitely comply.
Your Friend Who is Forming in Christ,
3M
MMM, I've never understood the idea that people "send themselves" to Hell because they want to be there.
We may as well just survey people, asking if an eternity with Satan appeals to them. If they answer no (as anyone here probably would), they must be saved, right? No one need bother with all this church stuff, if it's not their thing.
And presumably there would eternally exist a Get out of Hell Free option for those already in Hell, since it must always be said that its inhabitants prefer staying there to going to Heaven. (Although Norman Geisler has said that Heaven would be an environment of constant, eternal praise music, so maybe you can answer this dilemma by saying "there are really two Hells." ;-) )
Ismellarat, You said, "We may as well just survey people, asking if an eternity with Satan appeals to them. If they answer no (as anyone here probably would), they must be saved, right? No one need bother with all this church stuff, if it's not their thing."
The thing is this, Smellarat, is that ppl reject heaven, not only in the eternal realm but in the here and now, by cooperating with things that are ungracious and unkind towards others. Ppl speak as though they would not like to go to hell, but then their everyday actions are the very thing that construct its confines. So, I don't judge those who reject God --- I just don't find that all ppl will enter through heaven if they see ppl there that they hold in contempt.
ttyl,
3M
gleaner63 said...
The really interesting question though, is why are atheists so hell-bent to make Hitler a Christian?
The real interesting questions though, is why are Christians so hell-bent to make Hitler a Atheist?
Because some fundamentalist Christians fear that this Atheism is a threat to their normal way of life. If you reject the Christian God then you have no morals, which leads you to believe that you came from monkeys and gives you the right to act like monkeys, thus you have no morals which in the end lead to people like Hitler.
Manifesting Mini Me (MMM)
What I have read regarding your Christianity or the form of Christianity that you profess to practice seem nebulous.
The form of Christianity that District Supt. Harvey Burnett practices is not accepted by main stream Christians either, as if there is a thing called main stream Christians.
Also you have been contaminated by over 2000 years of historical events, cultural changes and experiences that were not option for a person during Jesus time.
We know of the Sumerians, the Incas, and the Dravidian, did Jesus know this as well? We had the Renaissance, Reformation, the Scientific Revolution, and the American revolution. There are tons more that we have experience not directly of course but threw forms of media like books which Jesus didn't have. In fact we had the New Testament, which Jesus also didn't have access.
My Question what kind of a Christian are you? Denomination etc
Because it just sounds to "airy".
Thanks
What about Mao, Pol Pot and Stalin?
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