Is the Effort at DC Worth it?

Sometimes I wonder. Other times I'm encouraged. Recently cipher wrote:
John...As I told you recently - I can't understand why on earth you want to waste your time arguing with these imbeciles. The evidence now suggests strongly what I've suspected for decades; they're neurologically impaired and are incapable of change. They are, for all practical considerations, developmentally challenged (fundies, let there be no mistake - yes, I'm calling you mentally retarded), and giving them occasion to view themselves as being on equal footing with you is a fatal error. If you want to continue to waste your time - this is America, knock yourself out. I have better things to do. Even when I have nothing else to do, it's still more worthwhile than this.
I understand the sentiment.

Some of the Christians who comment here are ignorant and ignorant of their own ignorance. They cannot be reached by us at this time. A Biblical scholar recently concurred:
Everyone is an expert on the Bible. This is one of the factors that provides professional biblical scholars with generous ulcers. Everyone is an expert because they know what they believe about the Bible. The difficulty is very few people actually know much about the Bible. Link.
Dealing with these type of Christians is annoying and I attract them here like flies because I write so people can understand. I don't use Greek or Hebrew nor do I use symbolic logic or math. I can in varying degrees. I just don't. So any Christian who can read can also understand what I say. I do this on purpose because I want to reach Christians. But most of them cannot be reached. Not at this time, and not by me. That's why I do not respond to some Christians here, because I can see them coming. And that's why I appreciate so much the skeptics who do, because I would get way too frustrated on a daily basis if I had to do so.

But keep in mind one thing; these Christians are reading what we write and that is a good thing. We are planting seeds of doubt. I think one of the goals on this Blog and on other forums should be to plant enough seeds of doubt that Christians will want to read a whole book that expresses these same ideas, and you know which ones I would recommend. ;-) Keep in mind that most people cannot be reasoned out of their faith because they were never reasoned into it in the first place. They were brainwashed, indoctrinated and/or enculturated to believe (however you want to describe it), as David Eller shares in the first chapter of The Christian Delusion. So to skeptics I say, try to keep this in mind. Although, ridicule can be effective and it's a great way to vent.

David Eller recently emailed me that Christians have "a different set of eyes then we do, and they cannot see what we see. Criticizing them, even poking them in the eye, simply does not improve their vision. They are deep inside a Christian box, and until they see the box and the world outside of it, their view is fatally limited." My goal, as frustrating as it is sometimes, is to help them step outside the box and see it for what it is. And I think I'm doing this as best as is possible, so I will continue.

I have found that more times than not it takes a personal crisis before a Christian is willing to consider our arguments. The crisis could potentially be an intellectual one, but most times it is some sort of tragedy. Then he or she will be willing to consider the seeds of doubt we planted. Coupled together with the loss of a loving Christian community and bingo, they can become skeptics. Also keep in mind that since there are many former believers who have become skeptics we know these believers can become skeptics too.

I get emails from readers of this Blog who have never commented here. Many silent people are reading this Blog. And DC is making a difference. That I know for sure. So I keep on keeping on. While changing the minds of brainwashed people is one of the hardest things a person can do, especially by simply typing words on the internet like I do, it's precisely because it's such a big challenge I like to do it. And I have learned quite a bit myself in the process. Learning is it's own reward.

Just so you know, I am dedicated to helping change the religious landscape and I will do so as long as I have breath. I do so for the countless numbers of people who were forced to keep silent their whole lives or risk persecution, torture, and even death. I will not let their tears and blood be shed in vain. I stand on their shoulders. They gave me the freedom to do what I do with only minimum annoyances. I do so for Voltaire, Thomas Paine, Robert Ingersoll and Joseph Lewis who were our fore-bearers and my heroes, as are others like the so-called New Atheists who all pioneered the way for the rest of us. And most of all I do it for the women. Historically they have been oppressed by religion in all parts of the globe down through the centuries. I hate what it has done to them given the patriarchal nature of man-made religions, and I do mean man-made. They need liberated from this pious nonsense, although in our day the women are doing that job on their own without any help from me.

Thanks so much for all of your support. Thanks also to some of the Christians here. Some of you make me think and have actually helped make my arguments better. ;-)

281 comments:

RC said...

yes!

aitmanga said...

I for one, am very thankful for the effort you put day after day at DC. You have helped many of your fellow non-believers with rational and sensitive arguments to help us at least plant seeds of doubt inside christians around us. Or even better, help us take the blinders from their eyes and see the world as it really is.

Keep up the good work.

goprairie said...

To me, there are two reasons that you didn't mention:
1) There are people who already don't believe but don't know anybody else who doesn't and they feel alone, strange, have doubts about having doubts, maybe even feel guilty for not believing - this is a place for them to connect and find support.
2) Your site and others keep the world mindful that religios freedom is not just about being free to have any religion you want but also to not have any religion at all. Sometimes, people accept things like a moment of silence where anyone can pray in their chosen religion, not realizing that discrinminates against those with no religion. Freedom of religion really must be freedome FROM any government sanctioned forced or even suggested religion in order for all religions to have true freedom and in order for those without religion to have true freedom. Atheist sites keep the definition of reliious freedom closer to pure.

Anonymous said...

Yes, goprairie, that and more.

Lazarus said...

My answer is one of those long ones that don't mean much because it says too much.

Obviously you are doing a great job here, and you have established one of the (if not THE) pre-eminent atheist blogs on the web. I suppose that that in itself should buck you up when They come posting.

I am also concerned that you giving up will (as batty as it may sound) be perceived as a "victory" for the forces of um, light. That is of course a very negative type of response, but there it is. "Loftus gives up!!" I can see it now.

On a more personal level - I can never do this as long as you have. It must be mind-numbing to read one more version of Christianity and why it is Troo. One more "Evidence for God" and one more passive-aggressive explanation why there really is no PoE.My nose would start to bleed every time I switch on my computer.

But then, if I can share a little confession (bless me Father John ...) - I sit down with some coffee in the morning, before I touch a stitch of work, and read your blog. I wouldn't want to lose that, it has become something very special to me. That of course does not mean one small rat's rectum to you, but still, there it is, a completely selfish reason for why I am voting that you stay and go on.

Whichever decision you make I will of course accept.

Thanks for what you have done - so far.

Chuck said...

John,

Your blog is my favorite web-site and one of the reasons is because of the religious folks with fixed psychologies, persecution complexes, bad logic and cognitive biases.

They all are object lessons in what I tried to become when I pursued Christianity. I did so with the expectation and hope the emotional appeals it presented could lead to a harmonious world-view. My experience was that the more I committed to the "truth" of Christianity (especially Calvinism and biblical inerrancy) I had to compartmentalize my intellect more and more. The meta-ethics didn't work and demanded that I hate myself to ensure the systematic theology had a workable premise.

You wrote, "I have found that more times than not it takes a personal crisis before a Christian is willing to consider our arguments."

That is my story. The compartmentalization combined with some life circumstances led to a clinical depression. I discovered your blog as I was beginning my recovery from depression as I sought out some facts about William Lane Craig and the Discovery Institute. I was doing this search based on some theories presented by church folk regarding both. I discovered that the assertions I had accepted as fact weren't and I went through a grieving process realizing that the Christian Delusion contributed to my fragile emotional and psychological state.

Your example of critical thought and consistent and calm argument has helped me move from anger to acceptance where I have expanded my thinking process and am free to admit my ignorance while practicing critical thought.

Skepticism, agnosticism and atheism have become the salvation I never experienced within the intellectual compartmentalization Christianity demanded.

I even feel comfortable interacting with friends who were only previously church aquaintances. They know where I stand and we can enjoy each other's company.

Mostly though, I don't feel compelled to co-sign the anti-science, bigoted, special pleading, culturally arrogant bullshit I frequently encounter with Christians because they are my "brothers and sisters" in Christ.

I can have relationships with folks now without having to share a brain. This blog has gone a long way in allowing me that freedom.

Anonymous said...

I'm not going anywhere Andre. Thanks for your encouragement!

Anonymous said...

Thanks Chuck! I appreciate you being here very much. You and others take on some of the ignorant Christians I try to avoid.

Gandolf said...

Hi John .

I think Cipher forgets one thing ,we do have to make a start somewhere.Voltaire, Thomas Paine, Robert Ingersoll and Joseph Lewis and the reast all would have explained,look its gonna be a long hard road! dont go expecting any simple sunday picnic !.And they might have even asked any of those who "quickly" despaired, what did someone tell them this was going to be like some kind of little holiday camp or something??.

You are so correct John most folks have not really been reasoned into their faith ,its often a matter of lengthly indoctrination combined with thoughts of fear of demons and places called hell that are often said to await all those who refuse faith.While some simply got born into it and had no choice.

Think how often we have even seen them here with their fear tatic remarks of ..and whereeeee will youuuu beeeee on judgment dayyyy etc.Then try to imagine just how much and how often its very likely these "cultish" type "fear tactics" and "manipulations" get used elsewhere.

When you considder this its really mind boggling.Is it any wonder its really such a huge job we face?,this world it often seems is really mostly run by manipulative controling cults.

John ive personally experienced the helpless feeling of what its like to be caught up in a really extra abusive christian cult, day by day you can only watch much of your life simply drift slowly by, with little you "alone" can ever do to change it, but you do always wish! maybe things might have been different.But yet wishing or praying is simply useless.

Things will never ever be different if people like you and others give up.And mark my word if people give up i can assure you that sooner or later, again and again, there will always be more and more of the Jonestown type events to come.

Until people finally decide they cant really ever afford to give up.

Maybe Cipher just doesnt really understand this, that folks dont really run these type blogs, because they kinda find it fun, getting another ear ache from bible bashers.No there is other real reasons for it.

Its unlikely you will ever get really rich out of this Job , but still its a dirty job that somehow somebodys gotta try taking care of at some stage.Just take a look around this world even today, and see all the many divisive "undercurrents" of faith at work.Sure they might not be the only bad thing around,but still who was it that said having/seeing more than one bad thing, actually makes anything right?.Religion if its worthwhile and any good, should surely at least be a good role model ...But that its definitely not!.

Thanks again for your time John.And remember this. Money is of little use to us after we leave this earth, but peoples memories of us linger on long after we are gone, and its the actions of "some" people that can create a value thats endless for many.

Kia Kaha John. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kia_kaha

feeno said...

John said "Just so you know, I am dedicated to helping change the religious landscape and I will do so as long as I have breath. I do so for the countless numbers of people who were forced to keep silent their whole lives or risk persecution, torture, and even death. I will not let their tears and blood be shed in vain. I stand on their shoulders. They gave me the freedom to do what I do with only minimum annoyances. I do so for Voltaire, Thomas Paine, Robert Ingersoll and Joseph Lewis who were our fore-bearers and my heroes, as are others like the so-called New Atheists who all pioneered the way for the rest of us. And most of all I do it for the women. Historically they have been oppressed by religion in all parts of the globe down through the centuries. I hate what it has done to them given the patriarchal nature of man-made religions, and I do mean man-made. They need liberated from this pious nonsense, although in our day the women are doing that job on their own without any help from me".

When they make a giant bronze statue of you, this should be the inscription underneath it.

I don't come by a whole lot, and I don't know who Cipher is but I'm glad he has better things to do. Once Christianity vanishes he'd just target the next group that isn't as smart as he is.

"...very few people actually know much about the Bible" OK, so they should take an Atheists advice on what it means?

I would also like to thank you John for dumbing yourself down so little Christian retards like me can enjoy this site.

Did you know that I go to church with about 200 people. And probably 100 of them never grew up in a religious environment, yet they some how managed to get saved. How were those people "indoctrinated" or "brainwashed"? Oh yeah, the catch all, it must have been "enculturated".

We both think however, that it takes a personal crisis for a Christian to leave his faith. Usually the personal crisis is they got their feelings hurt. Not an intellectual matter at all. That comes later.

"Is the Effort at DC Worth it?" Well, your obviously providing a place that is enjoyable for many people. So as long as you can stomach it, I say go for it.

I must be off, I'm teaching the 7th and 8th graders tonight at church and I haven't prepared any brainwa.. er I mean I haven't prepared a lesson yet.

Peace be with you all, feeno

Chuck said...

Feeno,

Do you realize how passive-aggressive you sound?

If you have "the truth" then why are you so defensive?

You sound like an ordinary person whose select social club's status is being challenged and you are reacting. Your type of unwise (and ordinary) response is a common one among chrstians when their religion is challenged and it is one of the greatest defeaters to the doctrine of the Holy Spirit.

Is the god who lives in you and re-birthed your character a petulant child who has the emotional depth of a school-yard bully (e.g. people leave the faith because they got their feelings hurt).

You are a living and breathing example that there is nothing profound or unique in the christian worldview.

Oh, and if you are going to use observational population data to make an argument you might want to add force to it by not making it an anectdotal story.

feeno said...

Chuck

I must learn to be careful around here. Atheists are the most sensitive little guys around. We all get a little upset now and then with the other side, but most of us aren't trying to change the world, we just passing time as we wait for dinner or the game to come on.

Notwithstanding that brilliant speech Mr. Loftus just gave. Maybe he is trying to save the world. And good for him, but I can't read that with out hearing "Glory glory hallelujah" softly playing in the back ground.

How many names can a Christian be called on this site until I can say something, that doesn't then make me a bully?

'Cause I don't wanna be a bully.

Later Holmes, feeno

Gandolf said...

But Feeno i need not even to go no further than your very own blog, to find read stuff written saying something to the effect ,only those playing the "game" will get a chance for a tickeet to the holy ball game in heaven with Jesus ,and ill read where you will "warn" others leaving the faith, that they will supposedly be held responsible etc.

What is this stuff, if its not actually a kind of manipulation and a type of brain washing Feen ?.These are really just some "watered down" versions of what abusive cult leaders use to try to enforce their control on their members.

And you cant honestly try telling me, once you get off your blog you totally stop that shit right there, right?.No i bet you didnt forget to remind those 100 or so "freely" converted types in your Church, that if they dont convert and follow Jesus with you, most likely they will just be reserving themselves this hot seat in hell too,right? .

Good for you, you have 200 pew warmers.What promises can you actually make that some of those pew warmers of yours, wont migrate later out into being a far more abusive fudy cult leader?.You cant promise that right?,and yet you dont see why people worry about faith?

Its sure happened plenty of times already before Feen.

You know maybe if "liberal" faithful folks like you really want to do something kinda special and maybe salvage something for faith ,im wondering if your faith might be better served if you folks actually started putting your "words" into some real "action" ,and did something real to see some real changes actually happen around sorting the problem of unregulated faith freedoms out, that for far to long have always allowed for these abusive faith scurges to become part of faith on our planet.

Because to be quite honest the "sorrys" and liberal church faith "counseling" units, really just dont cut the mustard, when trying to replace the lives and family times , members of abusive cults have to lose.

I often ask myself what it might be, that seems to stop faithful folks like you from understanding this point.But i have been reading some neuroscience tests lately, that seem to offer us a idea .They are suggesting maybe prayer and meditation on supposed gurus and healers ,seems to tend to (shut down parts of people brains) that is usually used for sceptical and reasoning and the ability of planning what to do.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627574.200-brain-shuts-off-in-response-to-healers-prayer.html

http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/122/5/994

http://scan.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2010/03/12/scan.nsq023



Which when you think about would at least go some way, towards helping us find a way, to try to better understand,just how and why it might ever be,seems some people can seem real silly when observed freely following the Jim Jones types.

And maybe it also offers some reason why MANY other liberal faithful, dont really seem to see any reason, why maybe some matters around faith have real need of change.

Just a thought.

Gandolf said...

Feen said..."I must learn to be careful around here. Atheists are the most sensitive little guys around. We all get a little upset now and then with the other side, but most of us aren't trying to change the world, we just passing time as we wait for dinner or the game to come on."

Feen while you personally aint bothering to try changing the world, because you are only waiting on dinner or for game to come on.

Heaps of other folks caught up in many faith abuses everywhere, watch their lives being wrecked and ruined.Feeling helpless and alone to change matters much.

Can you explain why it is you personally feel not bothering to try changing the world, is actually the better way?.

Just trying to understand.

Ignerant Phool said...

I know how Cipher feels, and to an extent, Pat Condell, on "debating dogma". I'm constantly asking myself why I bother visiting DC and commenting the little that I do, when it's efforts and mine seems futile. Yet at time's I wish I had the time to comment more, though I admit ignorance in many area's and so would still not be able to in these regard. But this is just wishful thinking on my part. Personally, I don't know if I could continually engage in a debate with the likes of Harvey, Breckmin, and Marcus (just to name a few). Just so I'm clear, my main focus is with critical thinking skills. The lack of it is in general with humans and not just a religious issue. I see this everyday of my life, especially when I'm interacting with people. So it's nothing personal with the guys I mentioned, my issue is with the thinking skills displayed by them. Arguing with such thinking (specifically Christians in case) is like tying to treat a spreading disease that you're trying to find a cure for but may never develop one.

However, I think we have to keep looking for a cure, and I for one am thankful for the people who take the time to do the research and study needed to help fighting this "disease". It's obviously not easy facing all the frustrations, disappointments, and obstacles along the way. It's not for everyone, that's for sure, which just may be the case with someone like Cipher.

Andre

feeno said...

'Sup G

I sometime say stupid things. I'm sorry. After re-reading that, it does sound a bit cavalier. Maybe Chuck was right and I was a bit defensive?

Truth is tho I do want to change the world. But probably in a way that would be offensive to you and other atheists. I would like to see you and all other atheists come to enjoy a relationship with our Creator.

Mr. Loftus has a web-site and his target audience is Christians. And he wants to put doubt in their little fundy heads. If I was to be forthright I too have a similar agenda, I'd like to plant seeds of doubt in those thick skulls of you guys.

We all have agendas or motives why we do and say things. But I will say this, my intentions any time I write something on Mr. Loftus' blog is to share Christ. So when I screw up and say mean things and piss people off, I truly feel bad.

I'll try better next time.

Peace in Mississippi, feeno

Weemaryanne said...

Feeno said: "...most of us aren't trying to change the world,...."

1) Speak for yourself.

2) I'm pretty sure that's a lie or at least a misstatement because after all, Xians are expected to change the world.

But if you are in fact telling the truth about yourself, then:

3) WHY aren't you trying to change the world?

shane said...

John.

I'll admit, I do feel like im having the same old arguments over and over one way or another here.

I dont believe many christians that visit this blog will change their minds because of our counter arguments....and that really isn't my goal...(they can believe what they want),but I come here and argue for my own peace of mind!

I know I can always come here and read the arguments and comment on them, and it keeps me realizing the absurdity of the christian faith, and gives me the chance to jump in with my own arguments which have bottled for quite some time.

All I can say John, is that, I have been an ex-believer for about 5 years now, and I've been studying the secular view as well as the issues surrounding the validity of the bible for at least the last 3 years. I was well aquainted with Ingersol, Paine, Bc Johnson, Barker, and Packham, and I never heard of you, until I stumbled across this blog site one day.

Since then, I have been commenting here and watching your debates, and Im glad I have!
You offer some of the most straight forward arguments that I have read/heard, that I have personally been holding myself, and I have more then enjoyed my visits here......

John, if you cannot convince all of them of their delusional state of mind, then at least you do your fellow nonbelievers a favor, and give us a chance to bring the absurdity of their theology down on them the same way they tried to impose it on us!

Anthony said...

feeno: I'd like to plant seeds of doubt in those thick skulls of you guys.

Hey Feeno, wassup? (On a side note I'll be at the Reds game on Thursday).

I understand your motivation, but unfortunately so far you haven't planted much doubt in me or any other ex-believer. It's not that I have a thick skull and cannot understand your arguments, it's that you haven't presented any evidence that really would plant such a doubt of atheism. Believe me, I'm open to what you all have to say, but when I see the arguments by people like Harvey against such topics as evolution, I am just unable to take your arguments seriously.

feeno said...

W'dup Homeslice

I'll be there with the wife and kids on Friday night.

Put a dollar in the homeless dudes cup for me. You know the guy that holds up the "why lie, I want a beer" sign.

Dueces, feeno

Grace said...

I've been sharing on these type of deconversion blogs for awhile.

Almost always the people that feel the most strongly opposing any type of faith come from fundamentalist backgrounds.

Usually there has been some type of spiritual abuse, or very rigid, authoritarian type thinking mixed up in their prior religious experience.

As a Christian, I have no problem opposing religious persecution, the oppression of women, the rape of the environment, and promoting freedom of thought.

What mystifies me is why people appear to suppose that the solution to these evils is to simply promote atheism, and "debunk Christianity," in a blanket sense, as if this is going to automatically cause folks to be more open-minded, tolerant, or loving.

Atheism feels like an "empty room," to me. An atheist could be a compassionate humanist like John here, or "Jack the Ripper."

The other day, I noticed a bumper sticker that read something to the effect, "The human race is an infection, and religion is the disease."

Do you think people that sport these type of logos on their cars are heading down to help out at the local homeless shelter, or soup kitchen?? I don't think so.

On the other hand, from my perspective as a follower of Jesus, I think we should be all about loving our neighbors as ourselves, and that every person has intrinsic, and infinite worth being made in the image, and likeness of God.

We are stewards of the earth, and should reverence the creation.

I mean why should this kind of faith be debunked, trashed, devalued?

I realize I"m rambling a bit here, but it simply doesn't make sense.

Chuck said...

Feeno

Your admission of defensiveness while noble is also evidence you don't have a supernatural counselor in the person of god living inside of you. You are simply defending your social club and are really no different than others who identify with a particular clan. It is sad that you can't see that. There is nothing exceptional about your social club and it is offensive that men like you who claim exceptional things like a relationship to a creator being are so freaking unexceptional.

shane said...

Grace.

Try watching the nature channel and tell us what there is to reverence about this world?

I believe some people find a home in christianity/religion, based upon multiple reasons like- belonging, sense of purpose, acceptance, fear, loneliness, brianwashed upbringing, and feelings of hope, and these reasons keep them believing or least hoping!

But for some of us, we simply recognize the inability of christianity to explain real life, and refuse to sacrifice our intellectual inhibitions in order to lie to ourselves!

As far as the personal character of any atheist, that depends soley on the individual, and christianity is no exception to this.
I have experienced a mixed breed of believers in my time, the only difference is that christians hide their true colors.

Luke said...

The answer to your titular question is "Yes."

mmcelhaney said...

If you feel the need to challenge Christianity, and you should. Plain and simple. My question is why assume that people who are Christians haven't looked at the evidence and just reached a different conclusion than you? Are you so threatened that the Bible may be right that you blind yourselves to evidence and come up with alternate explanations that go against the Bible text and provide no proof but vague suppositions twisted and ripped out of context of time and culture? Looks like. You delude yourselves. You propose and define a god that does not exist - alien to the Bible - and then complain that there is no proof for God. Of course there isn't evidence for the god you think you know. I agree with you about that God. If you are going to challenge Christianity, why do you think that believers won't challenge you?

By the way feeno makes good points. He isn't right because he's smarter or has some special interpretation you are too stupid to understand. He is right because he agrees with God.

shane said...

Marcus.

Blah blah, you know as well as we know that everything you just said is exactly what we feel towards you.
And what exactly is all this evidence that we are suppossedly missing?.

If there is so much evidence then why do you continuously keep coming back hear and arguing for God?

Chuck said...

Marcus

Your entire post is circular and seems like it begs the question. If you have god living inside of you in the person of the Holy Spirit shouldn't you ask yourself why he allows you to engage in logical fallacies?

Gandolf said...

Hey Feeno its really no biggy, besides im the first to admit humans are humans, and just aint ever perfect, and have up and down days and sometimes say silly things.

Id hope by now you`d know me enough to believe me when ive tried to explain my reason for feeling different about faith,is meant as nothing personal.Even though i guess maybe to you ,i suppose it could almost feel like im attacking part of your very own family when i seem so opposed to some matters of faith.I guess dont feel that way about atheism so faithful folks dont tend to upset me just because they discuss matters of atheism, i dont feel atheism is a sort of entity that is vunerable an needs protection, i feel like if its a worthwhile thing it will be able to stand on its own merit.And if faith is honestly the worthwhile thing we humans absolutely always do need, then by jingos yes please, so be it!.

But Feen ive spent not so far off 50 years now, caught up in a deathly type silence in the vacuuum of faith in this world.Waiting and hopeing after prayer long proved itself totally worthless, and all that was then left for me was to cross my fingers and wish for the best,knowing the only real chance we had left would be that maybe all the more liberal folks of faith themselves would maybe think to ALL gather together with others such as the atheists, and atleast vote and demand that some "real" changes be made, to the vicious circle of unregulated faith freedoms, that at present allow for certain people lives to be wasted and slowly whitled away, by one of the many nasty abusive christian cults and suchlike.Yet so far, mostly its still only seems its atheists trying to get some more better regulation of faiths.

Feen you say you would like to convert people like me.Cant you understand at present i have enough trouble even having respect for your faith while my life is continually being wasted away through lack of real action of those calling themselves more liberal, and thats way before id even be likely to feel like i had a good reason and could maybe be even drawn to your faith.

Why do you even suppose its going to be so likely your liberal faiths will even keep going, if you guys keep on "pocket pissing" and not being prepared to stand up and be counted for whats right, and see that some matters get changed and more long needed regulation is put into place, so that people like me no longer have need to have our lives wasted, because of the sad existence of septic faiths.

Feen its hard enough being hit with many other raw deals in our lives ,do you even understand for a moment how it might really feel when its a "christian faith" that is the cause of a utter scurge! on your life, that so happens to (last a whole lifetime) and only really ever ceases the hurting when you finally die?.

I tell you Feen i would serriously considder having all my limbs removed and my ribs all broken, if i could swap it for another chance at a normal family relationship that wasnt hampered by faith problems.Yes its real tough without limbs and crackribs hurt like hell each time you cough,but its usually often our families that give us the love and the strength and make these other problems seem like something we can handle.

If i had just been orphaned i know i would learn to understand, but its the "christian faith" that did this to me Feen and to my kids too .And yet it seems you would rather have me and other simply be quiet and happy about you and your faith?.

You tell me sweet little stories about how you visit the sick in hospitals ...Do you ever stop to think i might be keen to do more of that stuff myself if i wasnt needing to be dealing with PTSD that stop me sleeping and functioning right.If i myself could start feel lots more like living,rather than often wishing life would end to finish the pain ive dealt with now for not far off 50years.

You seem to think faith is needed for charity ,i happen to know thats total rubbish ive met many unfaithful who cared and helped me.

shane said...

The bible has many inconsistencies, errors, and superstitious make believe that any intelligent person can clearly see.
Yet Marcus tells us our reasoning is vague supposition ripped out of context for pointing out the obvious failures in scripture?

But no one can argue with Marcus or try to get him to see the oppossing views relevently, because he is convinced he knows everything there is to know about the meaning of each and every scripture!

You cant reason with someone like him!
He will come out with the most left wing answer and insist it is right regardless of how senseless it sounds as long as it agrees with his theology.

mmcelhaney said...

Shane, why do you keep arguing against God?

And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. - Acts 26:14

Jesus wasn't just talking about Paul.

Gandolf said...

Grace said...."What mystifies me is why people appear to suppose that the solution to these evils is to simply promote atheism, and "debunk Christianity," in a blanket sense, as if this is going to automatically cause folks to be more open-minded, tolerant, or loving.

Atheism feels like an "empty room," to me. An atheist could be a compassionate humanist like John here, or "Jack the Ripper."

Howdy Grace .Can you please point me to some links to any news of liberal Christian groups presently involved in "taking action" to vote and campaign to get governments to finally put more regulation into place, to curb this longstanding faith abuse?.

I know of a few atheist/agnostic groups that are always busy publically campaigning and doing what ever they can to try and bring about some change.

You say atheism seems so empty to you ...How do you think faith overall seems to me ,when i see evidence of so little action anywhere aimed at fixing this curse ?.

Atheism might seem empty to you because it dont have the church halls and same knitting groups etc .But atleast its taking action with regards to this real problem.And i suggest if more liberal aint seen to be bother with getting their As into G ! and making a move toward some real action themselves on this problem ...Then the simply fact remains ...It suggests yes its OBVIOUS it far better to simply debunk christianity and faith in general, and get on with promoting more atheism .

This world needs people who are ready for ACTION .Not herds of faithful folk humming hymns and wondering why it could ever be,seems people are not seeing faith as such a valid option.

If you can show me New links where lots of liberal faiths are all coming together to bring action and change on the matter of faith abuse ,i will take back what ive said.I just havent seen it anywhere as yet thats all.

But yet i do often see news of atheist/agnostic groups working at bringing about change on these very matters.

mmcelhaney said...

Chuck...maybe if you explained how the logic is flawed and to what you are referring to, I'd know what to ask him. All I see you do is making charges without evidence.

mmcelhaney said...

@Shane...I'm not claiming to be an infallible interpreter of the Bible. I'm still learning a lot about scripture, just not from you. I disagree with your exegesis and instead of reasonably explaining why you disagree you just start accusing me of being dishonest. At least I think your mistakes are due to lack of knowledge and not dishonesty. The other thing it's not my private interpretation. A lot of people agree with me. I'm not just blowing smoke. The bottom line is that you need the Bible to have inconsistencies so you can discount it. You can ignore what it says about needing Jesus if you are right about inconsistencies. When I find something in the Bible I don't understand, I don't do what you do. You assume that its wrong and use your worldview and experiences to substantiate that claim. That is why I say you are looking at the scripture out of its context. Some of the Bible is written in such a way that it assumes you know somethings you couldn't possibly know living in 21st Century America without study.

Gandolf said...

Shane said..."But no one can argue with Marcus or try to get him to see the oppossing views relevently, because he is convinced he knows everything there is to know about the meaning of each and every scripture!"

Oooh no ...Of course not ...Why even old David Koresh and Jim Jones and all their followers and folks in those doomsday christian cult that went to live in a cave ...Only problem was they was just.... ->"so threatened that the Bible may be right that you blind yourselves to evidence and come up with alternate explanations that go against the Bible text and provide no proof but vague suppositions twisted and ripped out of context of time and culture? Looks like."

See the bible is just so very very clear and simple Shane ..Thats why we have need of so many dominations already and new groups neeing to form each year....Thats why folk had such a need to go and write all sorts of other contextual reference books etc too.

When things are so plain and simple this is the type evidence we will always likely see ..No?

You know like when you go and buy that "clear and simple" car manual , it comes with umpteen dozen other books and manuals and what not, just so maybe with a bit of luck someday you can hopefully get to finally understand it right?.

Repentttttt Shane ...Whereeeee will you be??

Wooooo look out ! Hell woooo

shane said...

Marcus.

How do I persecute you or any christian just because I disagree?
I know from experience what its like to try and discuss issues with you and some of the off base answers you have.

Im not saying every argument of yours is unreasonable or not possible...but your not always right. Infact, I think you sacrifice some of your intellect in order to have an argument at times.

Hear is an example- John left a link to a site called "leaving christianity" in his problem with intelligent design post.
Checking over some of the topics discussed I found an interesting biblical inconsistency which the author points out-......... in Galations Paul says "we were given the law 430 years after Abraham recieved Gods promise"..........yet.....in Exodus we are informed that the Israelites were captive in Egypt for 430 years?.......both cannot be true considering that Abraham recieved the promise many generations before the Israelites were ever captured...tack on the 430 years of the captivity...how can Paul be right in claiming this?

shane said...

Gandolf.

I will hopefully not exist anymore when I die, at least not consciously, I hope I will be oblivious...lol...

mmcelhaney said...

@Shane

I didn't say you persecute me because you disagree. Why do you think my answers are off base because I disagree with you? You bring up an old question about how many years the Israelites were in Egypt. Let's try this a different way. Here is what I'm claiming based on the text:

1. The promises that Paul was talking about in Galatians 3:16 has to do with Gen. 12:7; 13:15; 24:7 - land and offspring through Sarah despite both being well-past the age of fertility and Sarah being barren.
2. When was this promise first given? Abraham was about 75 yrs when he first got the promise and 100 when Isaac was born. That's 25 years. There was only 3 more generations before the Jews went Egypt - Isaac; Jacob; Jacob's 12 sons.
3. In Genesis 15:13 God told Abraham that his descendants would be slaves in Egypt for 400 years. If you count those 400 yrs and from the last time we read of the promise to Abraham getting 430 years from then to the laws given on Mt Sinai would be easy.

Therefore, Paul is not wrong.

If you disagree, take each of the three points I raised and explain how I'm wrong. From there discussion should be easy.

Gandolf said...

shane said... "Gandolf.

I will hopefully not exist anymore when I die, at least not consciously, I hope I will be oblivious...lol..."

WTF ??!@%&?? ...You mean you`d serriously wish to miss a chance to "go another round" with these fine caring faithful folk, squabbling and fighting over who`s right and whos wrong etc ...and who`s in danger of being sent to the fiery blacksmithy to get some sweet knocking into shape ??$%*??.

WTF ??.

Man ... what the hell happened to your great sense of adventure?.

Hell i cant think of any better holiday than seeing some o those grumpy little old faithful ladies again , who as a kid i remember back in my christian curch cult, who used to look down their wee noses at me over their glasses, a glaring and a snarling and frowning at me whenever i dared even move or wriggle a inch in my seat, from having a sore butt! from sitting through all those boring lenghtly! sermons.

The thought of missing reconnecting with all these fire and brimstone breathing faithful types of old ...Leaves me thinking ...ummm ...hmmmm maybe if hell really exists, maybe it wouldnt be quite so bad really the more i think about it .I mean do i decide to choose between risking another meeting with the divils i do know!, or take my luck facing the devils i dont know?.

Im not sure what to think Shane :)

What about the wonderful bliss of having Marcus dailey making sure you stay very righteous and wonderfully correct etc.

Wouldnt you really miss that, if they sent you to that terrible place called "hell" ?

Gandolf said...

Shane at this holiday in the heavenly skyways, there will be Breckmin to cheer us on with many more of his fine examples of spiritual scripturely hyjinks .

And Harvey and Feeno and many others like them, will be there reminding us too, how we supposedly had absolutely no good reason to feel any great dislike of this wonderful invention know as faith, that actually split and devided many of our families and caused many of us trouble and endless pain, and even thankfully provided a safe place for the popes to allow room for priests to kindly keep on molesting some of us.

Think long and hard about what you`ll be missing Shane

Whereeeee will you be? ..Repent!

shane said...

Marcus.

25 years, plus three more generations (unknown length of time), and then add 400.....? I dont know where you get your math from but unless those other three generations were born and all had children within 5 years, we are beyond 430 years Marcus.....?....yet you say it is easy for us to count it up to 430?

Also, it is an unknown length of time from the 12 sons of Jacob (Joseph included) till the Israelites were captured?
Where do you get the information that the generation immediately after Joseph and his brothers were taken into captivity?.....
As far as I know, it had always been an unknown length of time.

Genesis may say they would be slaves for 400 years, Exodus says they were slaves for 430 years.....contradiction?

Chuck said...

Marcus

The fact that you can't see your fallacy yet claim to have a personal relationship with the supreme being causes me to pause and doubt the doctrine of the Holy Spirit. Your type of assertive arrogance fueled by a lack of awareness and ethnocentrism is very common amongst the saved and seems to be the most obvious evidence that Christianity is unexceptional.

Lazarus said...

Marcus

You invite us to look at your three points. It seems to prove some profound point in the structure of your worldview.

If so, regard the following link as a little gift from me, maybe a first step on the road to clarity :

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Israelites-in-Egypt

Please have a specific look at the conclusion, and then tell us what remains of your argument.

Whenever you're ready.

Chuck said...

Marcus,

Here, "My question is why assume that people who are Christians haven't looked at the evidence and just reached a different conclusion than you? Are you so threatened that the Bible may be right that you blind yourselves to evidence and come up with alternate explanations that go against the Bible text and provide no proof but vague suppositions twisted and ripped out of context of time and culture?"

And here; Description of Begging the Question

Begging the Question is a fallacy in which the premises include the claim that the conclusion is true or (directly or indirectly) assume that the conclusion is true. This sort of "reasoning" typically has the following form.

Premises in which the truth of the conclusion is claimed or the truth of the conclusion is assumed (either directly or indirectly).
Claim C (the conclusion) is true.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because simply assuming that the conclusion is true (directly or indirectly) in the premises does not constitute evidence for that conclusion. Obviously, simply assuming a claim is true does not serve as evidence for that claim. This is especially clear in particularly blatant cases: "X is true. The evidence for this claim is that X is true."

Anthony said...

Marcus: My question is why assume that people who are Christians haven't looked at the evidence and just reached a different conclusion than you?

The problem here is that most Christians will not read anything that challenges their faith. The most they will read is apologetics books and websites (like yours Marcus). Most Christians are even in denial that there exists contrary evidence to their believe system.

For example I doubt that most evangelical Christians would read material by Peters Enns or Kenton Sparks or other progressive evangelicals. On the other hand people like myself, John and others have no problem reading the material of people like a William Lane Craig, or a Richard Bauckham.

Are you so threatened that the Bible may be right that you blind yourselves to evidence...

Marcus, this is simply laughable and you should know better. What evidence are we blind to? If you can demonstrate that the Bible is right I'm all ears.

Anonymous said...

I was once a believer, but I was won over by logical arguments. It took time, but it became undeniable.

Your effort is not in vain as long as it presents interesting points and doesn't engage in sheer mockery.

mmcelhaney said...

@Shane and @Andre

You missed the part where I said that I was counting the clock at the last time the promise was made to Abraham not the first to get the 430. The 400 yrs given in Genesis 15, does not include the entire time they were in Egypt because the text says that where mistreated during those 400 years. when they first got to Egypt the Children of Israel had it good. Therefore I've got to say the link Andre provided has problems. The article does have good points however. I agree with author's conclusion. Andre, if you think I've proof texted I'd like you to point out an example and show how i've done so. I think that this link is much clearer in explaining how to understand how long the Bible is saying there was between the promise to Abraham and the giving of the law. http://www.biblecenter.de/bibel/widerspruch/e-wds14.php#809189D2-7517-4af1-BAF0-1A36C3BB8640&numResults=0&command=%20m_objCurrentDocument.getElementById%28%27veohrecs_fr%27%29.style.height%20%3D%20%27107px%27%3B%20m_objCurrentDocument.getElementById%28%27Veoh_SpaceDiv%27%29.style.height%20%3D%20%2712px%27%3B%20m_objCurrentDocument.getElementById%28%27VeohCompass.LoadingDiv%27%29.style.height%20%3D%20%270px%27%3B%20m_objCurrentDocument.getElementById%28%27VeohCompass.LoadingDiv%27%29.style.display%20%3D%20%27none%27%3B

@Chuck
You keep accusing me of using fallacies but you don't give an example and explain why you see it that way. Example, please.


I notice that you quoted some question I asked! How is that "begging a question when I asked questions? I f you want proof of vague suppositions that atheists make how about claiming that Peter put a hit on two people in Acts 5 when you have nothing in the way of evidence that it happened that way? What about about claiming that there are no set and certain core doctrines and christian belief that characterizes what a Christian is? Those ware just a feww examples of what I referred to.


@Anthony

Of course some Christians read and listen to opposing viewpoints and interact with them. Why do you think i read this blog? It is important to do that. That is why I like debates. I said you blind yourselves to evidence because of statements like "Jesus never claimed to be deity in the Bible." "Or there is no evidence of the Exodus outside the Bible." Both of these aren't true. I could go on. But I'll stop there. By the way what is your definition of a "progressive evangelical" verses "most evangelical Christians"? What do they believe?

admin said...

"And most of all I do it for the women."

You get blogger groupies? ;-)

shane said...

Marcus.

I think the link Andre provided was very thorough in its researching and conclusion. I agree with the author.

I will check out the link you provided, but if it is an apologetic answer (which I assume it is) I doubt it will change anything in Andre's link.

I find apologetic views to be relatively dishonest in some aspects of their explainations, because they have an agenda to refute logical skepticism, and try to add concepts to their arguments which really dont a right to be there.

mmcelhaney said...

@Shane, Andre's link is an apologetic. I don't agree with all of it. But that's ok. The author would still tell you to be repent of your sins and put your faith in Christ.

Chuck said...

Marcus

I provided an example and an explanation. I question your comprehension skills as well as your logic now.

shane said...

Marcus.

I agree with the author in his acknowledgment of how christians just delve into the bible without really recognizing issues.

You obviously know I dont agree with his overall standing.

Anthony said...

Feeno: I'll be there with the wife and kids on Friday night.

Here's a picture of me, the wife, and the son watching the game. The Reds won the game, yeah! and we even got to go down to the clubhouse to see today's starting pitcher for the Giants, Tom Wellemeyer, who is a cousin to my wife's brother-in-law.

Grace said...

(((Gandolf)))

I'm sure that most of us here cannot begin to understand your pain. I'm very much grieved that you, and your family are going through all this.

As a Christian, I want to do my best to reach out to people who are hurting, and experiencing any kind of pain, as inadequate as I'm sure my efforts are.

I think there are many churches, and Christian counselors working to help people who have suffered through toxic religion, and abuse.

In the United States, we have laws protecting children against physical abuse, and emotional neglect.

I'm a social worker/counselor, and actually work with a local department of Family, and Children's Services.

Sometimes in the course of my duties, I have reason to have to conduct child welfare investigations.

I have to be honest, and say that this is one aspect of my job that I don't like very well, at all.

My strengths are more in counseling, and helping people with parenting skills, being supportive.

But, I can tell you one thing, Gandolf, there is no way in Hell someone is going to be hiding behind the shield of religion, and using this as an excuse to abuse kids on my watch.

To give one example, as far as I'm concerned, excessive corporal punishment is still wrong, and against the law regardless of how many Bible verse someone can happen to quote. Oh, the devil can cite the Scripture for his purpose.

All that being said, Gandolf, I think there can be a fine line between government addressing religious abuses, and religious freedom. I mean who decides what is abusive, and inappropriate?

In your painful situation, it appears to be pretty clear cut, but in other instances, perhaps not always.

What sort of laws do you feel are needed, Gandolf? Are you able to share in a more specific way?

Guys, when I shared that atheism feels like "an empty room," to me, I didn't mean this so much in terms of just church activities, or experiencing Christian community. Maybe that's part of it.

I meant that it seems to me that there is no objective basis for ethics, morality, or ultimate purpose, and meaning, in this philosophy.

Depending on someone's experience, or temperament, philosophical materialism could easily lead to nihilism.

Can anyone else see this?

Don't get me wrong. I completely understand that there are individual atheists who are wonderful, and compassionate people, who have taken an existential "leap of faith," and created their own meaning.

But, I think this is probably not because of atheism, but in spite of it.


On the other hand, we can all point to mean, and spiteful things that Christians have done.

But, who would disagree that this shows an abject failure to truly follows the teachings and ethics of Jesus Christ, or to truly apprehend the depth of God's love, and grace.

I suppose that I want to ask if anyone else here is able to separate this out?

Chuck, might you share what led you to think that it was necessary to accept this doctrine of Biblical inerrancy in order to be an authentic Christian believer?

All of the scholars here can correct me if I'm in error, but as far as I know, the church did not even mention this doctrine until at least the time of the reformation.

The early church fathers never spoke of this at all, and I honestly don't think that this idea was emphasized at all in the church until recent times with the rise of modern day fundamentalism.

There were people following Jesus Christ as Lord before the New Testament was even penned, or the canon universally recognized.

Guess, I better end here. This post is gettin long.

feeno said...

Anthony

What a great game to go to. I thought about you in the 8th when we started our big come back. It's like we won because you were there. I hope I don't let you down tomorrow night.

Late, feeno

Chuck said...

Grace

First, atheism is not a philosophy but a negative response to a positive truth claim.

Second, a desire to find a coherent rendering of faith beyond emotionalism led me to systematic theology, biblical inerrancy and Calvinism. All leading to a worldview predicated on self hatred rooted in the doctrine of original sin.

Thin-ice said...

There was a post up near the beginning that said something to the effect that it would take something of a personal crisis for the more "in-the-box" kind of christians to ever de-convert. And Feeno (and Grace later on) agreed, saying that's about the only way christians would de-convert, never by rational consideration of the facts.

I would like to posit that a majority of de-conversions by previously faithful, mature christians, is precisely by rational consideration of the issues and facts, and NOT by some personal crisis. Or maybe it's just a majority of the de-converts who actually post their story online.

Because of the implications for themselves, Feeno and those like him have to keep shouting to themselves that no one could ever de-convert because they found christianity to be intellectually untenable. The concept, for them, is just too frightening to contemplate!

Gandolf said...

Grace said...."I think there are many churches, and Christian counselors working to help people who have suffered through toxic religion, and abuse.

In the United States, we have laws protecting children against physical abuse, and emotional neglect."

Howdy Grace.I can tell you really do care so please dont take anything i say to personally ok.

Here in NZ we have counselors too,some are run by churches many are not.But why should society allow faith cults to have freedom to screw with people heads and put them through hell ,and then sort of say ..Oh well we have counselors in place who try to pick up the pieces afterwards ,so that then makes it ok

What can a counselor do Grace about removing the vivid picture i have in my memory,of me being involved in the immediate aftermath of two of my own brothers near suicide attemps.And will the counselor bring back my other two relations to life, after their sucess of suicide?.

Dont get me wrong im thankful for counselors.But there is some much everlasting pain caused by my unchosen association with matters of faith,that thousands of counselors can still never repair.

Why oh why does society feel its ok to allow faith the unregulated freedom to cause harm,and feel the presence of counselors some how makes it ok.I just cant understand this line of thought.

In the USA ,Australia,New Zealand,England and many other places even today .There is children caught up in faith cults having their lives on this earth ripped and torn apart,some subjected to suffering and dispair of faith shunning seperation and often even total excommunication ,a number will finally just give up all hope and simply commit suicide.Others will become emotional wrecks, wracked by feelings of guilt and be forever haunted by thoughts of hell.

And then the liberal folks of faith offer us up, offerings of counselors.

And all this is sanctioned by ancient belief of gods and respect for freedom of faith.

What ever happened to respect of freedom of life? ...What ever happened to a childs right to be protected against bullys who manipulate and invade their young minds with fear and brainwashing THREATS about hell?.

Schools are even held responsible by groups who visit them to make sure their children mostly are saved from harms way and protected from bullys.

Yet churches our countries wide more or less have total freedom ,no groups ever visit them to check up on their children and inquire if any fear bully tactics are being used to FORCE the kids into submission.None.Nobody,Nil,Nada


Im sorry Grace though personally i like you a whole lot, i need to be totally honest here ...This is disgraceful ....Its matters connect to god and faith ! ...If you really believe your Jesus was about caring and love

Then by jove even you liberal christian folk are very far away from his calibre.

Jesus .. i read of a man who even became disgusted and rolled the tables of tax gatherers.

Yet you liberal christian folk stand by saying the presense and availibility of counselors, somehow makes up for all the hurt pain and even suicides ...Caused by unregulated faith ?.

As somebody who lived a whole life of pain caused by faith.Somebody who only got to even see his very own mother,the one time in the whole of the last 35 years.Somebody who has family who have all become withdrawn and heartbroken and riddled with broken marriages and some even with seperation from their own children too.

Your suggestion of counseling seems kinda hollow and worthless, even though i want you to understand!,.. i know you really are honestly a caring person and do mean well.

Society trys not to even allow bullys in our schools or communitys ,so why then do we put up with and allow the abusive cults and west bro baptists?.

What disgusting double standards...What blatant utter ugly disgrace! that also most of all this is allowed when being connected to the name of Jesus!

Gandolf said...

Grace said.."But, I can tell you one thing, Gandolf, there is no way in Hell someone is going to be hiding behind the shield of religion, and using this as an excuse to abuse kids on my watch."

But the problem is they actually still do Grace .Are you in denial that the West bro batists actually do exist? ...If you were in my country would you say to me.."there is no way in Hell someone is going to be hiding behind the shield of religion, and using this as an excuse to abuse kids on my watch."

They dont need to hide from you Grace ..You folks being the major types running all our countrys simple allow it to all keep on keeping on.

((Whats worse)) many folks live in fear! of speaking out! about the abuse they must suffer .

If they dare speak out ...Their families will then just as likely shun and totally disown them!.

And then these abused people will find themselves at the mercy of your freaking worthless church counseling practices.

As if your counselors will ever likely be enough to ever replace a family?.

I tell you Grace its very frustrating trying to explain this to people who were lucky not to get involved in this type of abuse.

If you dont hear or see many complaining ...Its like you simply conclude think its obviously no big problem.

(((You forget to factor in the shunning factor ..the possibility of excommunication.)))

(((The very same thing that even STOPS many people in the USA from even DARING to be disclosing their Atheism)))

Faith can make people very blind Grace....Blind to things they dont what to believe.

These people will only ever be protected from abuse once people of faith decide there is a need for regulation of faith...And start going around each and every faith group from time to time making sure no abuse is happening.Just like what happens with schools.

((People within these groups quite often cannot really afford to complain Grace .Complaints will only get many of them disowned.))

Cant you understand that Grace?.These people really need you to want to start protecting them.They cant afford to try protecting themselves.Often their familys will hate them if they try to.

Gandolf said...

Grace said..."All that being said, Gandolf, I think there can be a fine line between government addressing religious abuses, and religious freedom. I mean who decides what is abusive, and inappropriate?"

Well Grace who gets to decide what emotional abuse is ok in GROUPS in the secular community?.Who gets to decide whats allowable in schools?.Who decides what our road codes and speed limits will be?.

The thing is some regulation needs to be in place.And if to many are still being abused, then the matters need to be addressed again and some stronger regulation put into place.

((But the authoritys would be blind not to realize)), this is not ever going to be anything like a situation at some school,where there wont often likely ever be any disownership by all family, if somebody should dare come forward to complain.

This is a very differnt situation here....We are dealing with groups of people of faith .People with such strong beliefs and convistions they can even be fully prepared to fight with guns ...or commit group suicides.

There members often cannot afford to be the ones to come forward and demand protection or a right to fair treatment in life.

There will need to be people employed to go in find where the problem are.And ways devised to protect people against possibility of any blacklashes.

You said.."In your painful situation, it appears to be pretty clear cut, but in other instances, perhaps not always."

Why of course...but practice makes perfect...And regulation needs to start somewhere....Obviously its not enough at present when plenty of ((GROUPS OF ABUSERS)) still actually do exist.We are not just talking about a pair of parents here and there who are involved in abuse...Grace this is a matter of FAITH GROUPS where many still suffer on in silence

Its bad enough that we have some parents here and there who abuse their children.But very SHOCKING and totally DISGUSTING that FAITH GROUPS still can do so ..Even worse and even more digusting they will still be allowed to continue to do it in the NAME of JESUS .

What kind of world is it, that we live in the year 2010 that sill allows this sort of thing, Grace?

What kind of world faithfully turns a blind eye to such blatant utter disgrace.

One overuled by faith?

Ohh that Jesus still existed ..I do feel there would sure be a few faithful liberal butts, getting a severe swift kicking into gear....Even if at the threat of possible crucifixion !

Why do you think the atheist movement is becoming so very forefront lately? .

Well Grace really, what other hope is there out there?.... when the only other option being the sleepy hollow faithful liberals so totally complacent and well acquainted with turning a blind eye

K said...

As an outsider looking in, I find places like this really enlightening. Even though I grew up in a Christian society, I've never really understood what it's like to believe. One of the things I always found in talking with Christians about the belief is that there was almost an assumption that the belief was true, almost as if the existence of God (the Christian version of God) was presupposed. It's really hard to understand when I get responses with apologetics from that presupposed position rather than building a case from the ground up.

It's books like Why I Became An Atheist that at least give me a chance to possibly understand that mindset. When there are theists branding atheists as "deluded" and that we are "denying reality", how can I possibly understand those objections without understanding that mindset any more than a true believer would upon reading The God Delusion. Meanwhile I loved Dawkins' book because it was able to make the case in a frame of mind I can understand.

That we have psychological biases that make us rationalise away disconfirming evidences, and fail to see things from another perspective makes me sceptical of my own position. Surely if others are biased in such an approach then I must be too! Which is why I think the outsider test for faith is such a good thought experiment, if someone can achieve it then it could enlighten something about what they believe.

So for me, blogs like this aren't so I have ammunition to throw at apologists. I find they are a means to help me understand from another perspective, something I can't get from apologetics.



Keep up the good work John!

Gandolf said...

Grace said.."I meant that it seems to me that there is no objective basis for ethics, morality, or ultimate purpose, and meaning, in this philosophy.

Depending on someone's experience, or temperament, philosophical materialism could easily lead to nihilism.

Can anyone else see this?"

No im sorry i cant see it at all Grace.People without faith in Gods dont all turn into unruly tyrants.There have been tribes who had no faith in the supernatural and they were not nihilists at all see this link for instance http://freethinker.co.uk/2008/11/08/how-an-amazonian-tribe-turned-a-missionary-into-an-atheist/

Grace i do fear maybe! your thoughts and fears are but remnants of misinfromation and old outdated faithful propaganda.

I suggest there is plenty of natural reason for objective morality and such things.

Take the ethic of blatant murder for instance,why would blatant murder be found to be so disliked amongst almost all tribes and all groups of people on this earth?.

If blatant murder was to be considdered as a good ethic ,that would mean people would go around killing each other until finally only one person remained.And yet one person cannot even breed.

Stealing is but a vicious circle and soon enough will always come back to effect haunt and harm any tribe of thiefs also.

I could go on further Grace and explain many reasons why objective ethics likely exist.But i will just point out that all that is written within the bible or any book, (still comes through the mind of man) who also got to decide anyway!, so whats the big difference?, because we obviously are still ,"Depending on someone's experience, or temperament" anyway ! ..What do you suggest there is that we should use that would be any different ?.

In a discussion about the formation of morals, you might ask me the question,: but then who gets to decide ? .To which i would simply ask/reply who do you suggests decides in your bible anyway ,its still people isnt it! even if they might happen to be faithful prophet type people?.They are still people just the same.

So i suggest your argument of worries about dicisions over ethics is realistically very circular, when you do get to think about completely honestly.

In regards to you fears and worrys of the matter of "ultimate purpose",think about it faiths ultimate purpose often seems to be kind of selfish and self centred on people gambling on gaining salvation and their eternal life.They will even willingly gamble with other peoples lives on this earth, if they think it means their personal "wants" will possibly be forefilled .In the past it has been Faith that has caused people to throw their own live babies into fire ,after suggestions by those leading them that it will bring fertility.I could go on about the types of "ultimate purpose" faith has brought upon us but to be honest it sickens me to much.

Why is it you feel family and tribe and living a life on this earth isnt enough of a ultimate purpose? ..When you die and your memories live on and on in the momories of all those left behind, who will remember and be thankful for all the wonderful information and technology etc you thankfully passed on to them before you passed away ...is this not even enough "ultimate purpose" for you Grace?.

It really saddens me that people must want for more than this wonderful life has to offer, but then i suppose that might have to do with my life on this earth, having been badly effected and destroyed, by those in this life who sadly also wish only for something more.

Grace said...

I'm sorry to her this, Chuck, and thank God that you are doing so much better emotionally. You obviously have a very keen, and analytical mind.

My personal conviction is that everything God created is good, and blessed. We are "fearfully, and wonderfully made," as the psalmist writes.

I would agree as a Christian that there is a paradox here. We have become also broken, and fallen, alienated from God, and from each other. I'm able to observe this simply by looking at the world around, and by my own experience.

But, to my mind, this doesn't mean that humans are worthless trash by any means.

It does seem to me that a worldview rooted in the conviction that we are made in the image of God, loved by the creator, and here for a purpose, would be a much firmer base for developing a sense of self-worth than a paradigm which affirms that humans are nothing more than highly evolved animals, here on the earth by pure chance, based in the "survival of the fittest."

But, what do you think?

I do lean more toward theistic evolution by the way, and would not seen Scripture as given to be a science text. But, I suppose, that's another topic.

Off to work now. Will try to respond to all the e-mails in order. Appreciate the conversation, guys. :)

K said...

"But, to my mind, this doesn't mean that humans are worthless trash by any means."
I really don't see how from materialistic naturalism it follows that humans are worthless trash. Yet it's something I see come up over and over again from theists as if they are reassuring themselves that without God it's all horrible.

It really makes me wonder how people can misattribute what they find significant in their own lives as being somehow irreconcilable with a godless universe. Does the feeling of love somehow lose its value? Does the sense of achievement mean nothing without God? Does friendship, experience, pleasure, pain, interaction, striving, achieving only have an intrinsic value if we are more than material and its all commanded by a higher power?

Chuck said...

Grace you said,

"It does seem to me that a worldview rooted in the conviction that we are made in the image of God, loved by the creator, and here for a purpose, would be a much firmer base for developing a sense of self-worth than a paradigm which affirms that humans are nothing more than highly evolved animals, here on the earth by pure chance, based in the "survival of the fittest."

I find to reconcile the competing theologies in the bible one must compartmentalize their psychology to the point of warring with oneself if one is to believe your premise.

I believe I am wonderfully made and wonderful simply because I am one of a kind. No god is necessary for me to attribute that self-worth and, in fact, the sense of wonder natural contemplation provides gets undermined when metaphysical theories on suffering involve external agency.

I suggest you read Jerry Coyne's book "Why Evolution is True" because it seems your cursory dismissal of evolution fails to understand its truth. "Survival of the Fittest" is a misapplication of the wonder that is evolution.

Bronxboy47 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bronxboy47 said...

Worthless trash or expendable material?

I wish some Christian could explain to me just what purpose and meaning they attach to the lives of the countless millions of their fellow humans, those in the past, those living presently, and those in the future who won't be spending eternity in heaven. No matter how you slice it, the bible believing Christian has to bring himself, at some point, to believe those lives to have been acceptable collateral damage in God's pursuit of his holy plan. And yet they have the nerve to accuse Atheists of lacking a moral baseline. What kind of morality allows one to accept the horrific fate of all but a handful of mankind? God's plan for most of us--and whether he is actively or passively responsible for its implementation isn't the point here--would make what Hitler did to the Jews look like child's play. And yet, the average moral Christian find this perfectly acceptable, because God has decreed it. What kind of morality thinks infinite torment for a finite offense equals justice? Just asking.

Anthony said...

Marcus: Of course some Christians read and listen to opposing viewpoints and interact with them.

I understand what you are saying here but honestly most Christians do not want their faith challenged so they do not participate in such discussions. I do not see many believes come here to honestly discuss and debate the issues and be open enough to reconsider their faith. Most come here for apologetic reasons, Harvey is a good example.

I said you blind yourselves to evidence because of statements like "Jesus never claimed to be deity in the Bible." "Or there is no evidence of the Exodus outside the Bible." Both of these aren't true. I could go on. But I'll stop there.

I do not see how this is "blinding" ourselves to evidence. With the two examples that you gave a case can be made for both, although I have no interest in debating them and I believe most scholarship would favor the propositions as stated. But even if it could be demonstrated that Jesus claimed to be deity, this doesn't mean he was. Nor does some collaborating evidence of Exodus equate to the Bible being true, or that Christianity is true.

By the way what is your definition of a "progressive evangelical" verses "most evangelical Christians"? What do they believe?

Most "progressive" evangelicals are open to critical scholarship and science while your mainstream evangelical either is not at all or may concede a little. A regular evangelical holds to inerrancy fully, an example would be G.K. Beale, while a progressive would either deny full inerrancy or would redefine it like Peter Enns and Kenton Sparks. Most progressives would not deny science and are typically theistic evolutionists (or evolutionary creationists as some prefer to be called).

mmcelhaney said...

@Bronxboy47 said:

the average moral Christian find this perfectly acceptable, because God has decreed it. What kind of morality thinks infinite torment for a finite offense equals justice? Just asking.

Who said our offenses are finite? Given that your life is affected by sins committed in the past and your own sins affect others around you - even those not yet born. Also I think you are ignoring how pure and holy God is and how totally offensive our sins really are. God sets the standard. God gets to set the accountability.
When it is all said and done...you will agree that God is right and so will everyone else. All will know why they will be in heaven or why they are in hell. And there will be no excuse.


@Anthony

I agree that not all Christians look at or study other viewpoints. Many don't even know what they believe or why. I see no problem with having my worldview challenged. I say bring it. However if my faith is being challenged I have every right to raise the stakes. I think you look at apologetics differently than I do. I don't think you can really do apologetics without understanding what other people believe or why. I think you misjudge Elder Harvey Burnett.
However you should also acknowledge that some atheists don't know anything about other viewpoints either. Their rejection of the Bible is purely emotional with no reason.

You said With the two examples that you gave a case can be made for both, although I have no interest in debating them and I believe most scholarship would favor the propositions as stated. But even if it could be demonstrated that Jesus claimed to be deity, this doesn't mean he was. Nor does some collaborating evidence of Exodus equate to the Bible being true, or that Christianity is true.

I would say the scholars you read would agree with those statements however there are quite a few scholars who do disagree. That is why debating them is important. And notice that I'm not arguing JEsus' deity is true or that evidence for Exodus proves the Bible. Those are separate question but also worthy of study and discussion. Also I think your discussion of progressive evangelicalism also warrants discussion. Questions such as what does inerrancy mean? would be important to answer before discussion of when and where the Church began to teach that and if we should still hold it today. I would argue that inerrancy goes back to first century Christians and Jesus Himself. I realize that not everyone agrees with me on that but there are scholars who do. An open discussion can only help not hurt.

Bronxboy47 said...

If sin is so offensive to God's holy sensibilities, why create creatures he knows are destined to give offense, especially when nothing compels him to do so?

Bronxboy47 said...

Don't do as I do, do as I say.

God: I say forgive and endure all things, but I have no intention of putting up with sinning S.O.B.'s beyond a certain point. I mean, jeez, after all, there's got to be a limit somewhere.

Again, not to belabor the point, but the core of Christian morality comes down to might makes right. God is God, holy, omnipotent, etc., and what ever he does is by definition right and good, no matter horrific and immoral it might appear to us puny humans.


We are asked to abandon human morality, fumbling and enfeebled as it may be, in favor of a mystic reality that tells us we are to call the most horrifying and immoral acts good as long as they are being performed in the service of a holy God. I really don't see how Christians can accuse atheists of moral relativity with a straight face.

Chuck said...

I agree Bronxboy. Christians of Marcus type simply have elevated unquestioned obedience to an absolute authority as the highest moral good. He speaks as if he knows the mind of god but this certainty would of course be contradicted by his own theology. It seems plainly incoherent.

Bronxboy47 said...

Marcus,

So your God in his blissful, eternal state, dreams up an offensive creature, a creature who had no chance of ever existing if God hadn't thought of him, and then, with nothing compelling him to do so, creates and confronts himself with that nightmarishly offensive creature. And then what does he do? Well, you know exactly what he does, he pretends the responsibility for this creatures existence is not entirely his. This creature must bear full responsibility for the consequences of his entire god-given nature, and all the ills to which it is subject including sin. Come on folks, only someone with repressed sadistic fantasies could find this scenario to be the work of a holy and loving God.

Bronxboy47 said...

Marcus,

According to Christian theology, humans have no intrinsic value of their own. Their only value lies in the fact that they are created in God's image. And yet, we are expected to overlook the absolute ludicrousness of the idea that so awesome a God would bring the full brunt of his raging anger to bear upon creatures of total insignificance, apart from that nasty, nagging resemblance. If humans are F****d up, it's a clear indication that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

mmcelhaney said...

@Bronxboy47 and @Chuck

Who is the better judge of right and wrong? You? Me? OR the one who created everything? And knows everything? Personally, I'd trust God over you. And I sure as heck don't wanna trust my ideas of right and wrong. I know myself too well. God is not asking you what you think. I agree whatever He does is right and you are in position to judge because you don't know what the big picuture is. You don't know all the ways each event affects another. You don't know what final goals God is accomplishing either. Neither do I. What makes you think you are qualified to determine what the greatest good is? Atheist accuse Christians of arrogance but christianity is about humility. Christianity is not about moral relativity. IT's about the highest standard being God himself. Chuck, I sure would like to hear what you consider contradictory in my theology. Do you even know what my theology is?

God is not accountable to us. And God has not absolved himself of responsibility of creating us or allowing us to fall collectively and individually. God is so responsible for us, although we choose our sin. It does not matter that we can't get out of sin ourselves we are still responsible because we do the evil and God does not. God is so responsible for those He has chosen for himself that he condscended and became a man and died to pay for our debt. More than that we are justified by his Resurrection so we can be declared "Not Guilty" because of the Blood Jesus shed for us. You have an advocate you have a way out. You don't have to go hell. No, it's not on your terms it is on God's terms. Don't like it? Too bad.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? - Romans 9:19-22


Oh and where does the Bible say that the only value in being human is to be created in God's image? Books, Chaptersm and verses please.

Bronxboy47 said...

Marcus,

So what your suggesting is that God went out of his way, disturbing his own infinite bliss, to create a creature he knew to be capable of infinite offense. Have I got that right?

Bronxboy47 said...

Marcus,

Right and wrong are human terms to which your God appears to be totally indifferent. They can have no meaning to him in the light of his own holiness. Why should I care about someone who operates under rules which in the end amounts to no rules at all, everything is divine whim. What do rules matter to a God who can't be held to account for his behavior by virtue of his holiness. How could you even bring yourself to trust such a creature. He says he loves you, but he has a divine right to lie to you even about that, and you have no say in the matter. He is certainly within his divine right to withhold information from you which might give you second thoughts about his ultimate intentions for you. Is this the sort of God you honestly feel you can give your allegiance to while turning your back on the rest of mankind?

So, he's made promises and you've chosen to believe him, but even you have to admit he's under no obligation to keep his promises and certainly couldn't be called into question should he change his mind.

But no, you are convinced you know the mind of God, and he would certainly never lie to you or renege on his promises. Your human sense of injustice (right and wrong) doesn't allow for such a possibility. But you've already dismissed the importance of such a human standard of judgment. So where does that leave you, my friend

Bronxboy47 said...

On God Paying Our Debt

God: I'll pay your debt, but only if you are willing to believe six impossible things before breakfast.

Grace said...

Kel,

I was sharing that I don't feel that according to the witness of Christian faith, we are regarded as worthless.

And, Chuck, thanks for the book suggestion. I'm not familiar with this author.

Grace said...

Gandolf,

In New Zealand, are you able to go to the law, and request a child welfare investigation relating to possible emotional abuse?

In the United States, if it is suspected that a child is being emotionally abused in a religious cult, and being driven to self-harm, that concern can be called into a state central registry, and then investigated.

Children can be removed from these abusive settings if the report is found to be substantiated, and there is no other way to protect the child. We do have legal recourse.

I admit that sometimes this type of abuse can be difficult to prove, and it can be hard to address these situations where people are isolated, and afraid to come forward.

But, do we really want police just randomly knocking on the doors of people who appear very religious, or hauling people into court who happen to belong to say the Amish, or Mennonite sects. How can people be forced to associate?

Truly, I'm struggling along with you to find an answer, and balance in this, Gandolf.

I think people whose lives are truly rooted in an experience of God's love, and grace are not going to be doing these horrific things. Perhaps people of faith need to be doing more to reach out, and present a positive alternative.

Gandolf, is there something I can do right now to be of help to you, and your family?

Grace said...

Bronxboy,

Where have you come to the conviction that all the Christians believe that the vast majority of people on the earth are all heading for Hell in a handbasket?

Many Christians are universalists.
Although, this is not my personal view.

I mean, I think it is possible for people to willfully, and knowingly reject God, and deliberately choose evil. If someone wants nothing to do with God in this life, is their mind likely to change in the next??

If Hell is the absence of God, then it seems to me in some sense, it is actually an expression of His love, that people are not made mindless robots, and simply forced into the kingdom.

It's my conviction, that everyone seeking truth and love, wanting God, will be brought to Christ, either in this life, or the next.

Are we more merciful, and loving than the Lord? Not a sparrow falls to the ground without His notice.

I would see it as wisdom to leave who will be "saved," or "lost," to the wisdom, and mercy of the Lord.

Chuck said...

Marcus,

Your theology states that nobody is above god but you feel repeatedly compelled to speak for him. That seems to be an indication that you are at the very least his equal. That seems a contradiction to your theology.

Grace said...

Oh, and Gandolf, btw, I like you too, and I'm not taking your sharing in a personal way. Don't worry. :)

I understand that you have plenty to be upset about.

Now I'm all typed out, and off to bed.

Bronxboy47 said...

Grace,

With every passing century your shape-shifting religion gets watered down to make itself more palatable to contemporary moral sensibilities, while also adjusting shamefacedly and belatedly to scientific advancements.

Come on folks, stick to your guns. Have the courage of your horrific convictions.

Another thousand years or so and your religion will have pretzel twisted itself into a totally unrecognizable shape. That is, if it hasn't by then accommodated itself to scientific advancement to the point of total irrelevance.

How can atheists win the battle if you Christians continue to concede one point after another? Granted, the concession are made with glacial slowness, but they are genuine concession nevertheless.

Your willingness to admit the possibility of universal salvation is touching, but since you yourself are not committed to it, why bring it up? Just to plant the idea that there are Christians liberal enough to accept an idea you can't embrace?
There are Christians who believe Jesus will return at the head of an alien army (and if they don't actually exist at the moment, I'm certain we can look forward to such a cult in the not too distant future). Why should that effect my attitude towards Christianity as a whole?

Gandolf said...

Hi Grace

No neither in NZ, Australia or even the USA are the law presently able to help people involved in this christian cult.This is obvious as they do still happen to exist in all of these countrys and other countries as well.In all these countries both some suicides and quite a number of split and divided familys have quite often been the outcome of this Group.

Grace im honestly thankful for your kind thoughts,i really am.But are you not overlooking something here,doesnt it seem a little strange! to you, that so happens these abusive faiths still happen to even exist,if it actually is as easy to get help, as it seems you would like to imagine it might be?.I mean if good enough help is at hand,why do they still exist like they do?

I tell you my friend its almost impossible.There is just so much running against you.

You said.."In the United States, if it is suspected that a child is being emotionally abused in a religious cult, and being driven to self-harm, that concern can be called into a state central registry, and then investigated."

And yet im sure plenty of kids still suffer emotionally.Do you really suppose kids born to west bro baptists just for a instance ,are born to feel the hate for all people that they later end up with?.Sure i know that cult is maybe at the extreme, but i need to try to get you to imagine and understand that there will be lots of areas of varing faith abuse happening in between the west bros and your own kind caring liberal folks church.

And even when being abused ..We still love em ..For they are our families .The only real family we will ever have.And because of this we find ourselves stuck between a rock and a hard place.

You said.."Children can be removed from these abusive settings if the report is found to be substantiated, and there is no other way to protect the child. We do have legal recourse."

Yes and thats part of the scary part for these kids .What to do what to do.What kind choice is this to have to make?.Save yourself abuse,by having yourself removed from your family?.Your always gonna stick it out for as long as you possibly can ,because you know the only other option society has allowed for you.And what worse is, this stupidity of society plays right into the greasy hands of these cults.They quietly laugh and clap their hands,thinking thank you god! for making your faithful so ignorant and suppling us with such a ready made biological dungeon.

Dont you think for a moment many of these nasty faithful folks dont remember to make sure to warn/threaten their kids, of all the nastys problems likely just awaiting for any disobedient children who should dare try to move outside of their doors?,should they dare not tow the line and learn to submit.

Any storys they can find of children who dare leave, who might end up troubled and disturbed lost sad souls,(even though its kind of somewhat understandable that children having lost family love) are almost always likely to have some real problems ...(These cults will make sure to highlight this unhappiness! and use it as a warning/threat device).

Forgive me Grace but when i read your thoughts and how you seem so sure things are already well undercontrol,and seem to feel maybe matters are already taken care of enough.

I really start to understand just how these faith abuser have been able to keep on down the same road of abuse they been traveling for so many years now.

Even the Amish have their reasons for secluding their children away and then throwing them out later into the wide world in their teens to trial it.They first seclude them away, so they dont get to learn all the social skills needed,then throw them out! amongst it all in their teens,knowing 9 times outa 10,the kids will get in all sorts of trouble!. And get the fright of their lives!, and soon enough just come a running back.Far to frightened to ever think of leaving again.

Grace you need to think like a cult before you`ll really understand how it all works.

Its a jail, without even any need of a prison.

Gandolf said...

Grace said..."But, do we really want police just randomly knocking on the doors of people who appear very religious, or hauling people into court who happen to belong to say the Amish, or Mennonite sects. How can people be forced to associate?

Truly, I'm struggling along with you to find an answer, and balance in this, Gandolf."

Grace i know its a struggle to find a balance.But i wonder why did you think it would need to involve the police?.Did the police need to become involved when christians got together and decided what books would be included in the bible?.Do the police need to be the ones involved in periodically going around schools every couple of years and making sure matters are ok?.

The fact is if this was made a general type regulation that becomes agreed upon,then nobody need feel like they are being specially picked on or personally persecuted.

You said.."I think people whose lives are truly rooted in an experience of God's love, and grace are not going to be doing these horrific things. Perhaps people of faith need to be doing more to reach out, and present a positive alternative."

Well Grace all i can say is its happening ..And still far to much than is acceptable in my thinking as somebody who was on the receiving end.It not just a matter of an abusive couple of parents which is always hard to control,its group abuse!.It often blatant abuse thats well known ..Even been on TV and recorded in newspapers .Doctors records record many many instances of longstanding severe depression associated with these abusive faiths too.

You said..."Gandolf, is there something I can do right now to be of help to you, and your family?"

Thanks for thinking to offer Grace , but no not really .What can you do? can you give us back our life? ..Can you replace those years i never got to see my mum and make it so my kids got to meet her too?.

Grace this is why its so very important to start to tackle the problem at the root source.Because otherwise there is nothing anyone can really do to make that much difference after it already happened.We need to try to do something better to try to stop it before it starts Grace.

Im ok .Ive learned to accept most of it best i can.

The Harvey Burnetts of this world considder people like me as moaners and try to ridicule us for speaking out about it,then so be it ive grown MIGHTY tough skin these days anyway.See if i care what he thinks...I dont expect some harsh C.O.G.I.C pastor to really HONESTLY give a danm anyway.L.o.L

I already know full well! many folks of faith are freaking frauds!..So should his attitude really surprise me?.Presense of God?..yeah right pfffttt!

Godly morals ..ha..pffffttttt

Pastor cant even act human half the time!,acts like freaking a cave man...Waffling about any real influence from Gods s a load o bull then aint it.

Much about my life is a irreparable mess now anyway.So to be honest ive just made it part of my goal to do whatever i can to try and bring about some real changes somehow, so that hopefully it happens to less others in future.If i can achieve that,then atleast it will be something i can feel good about.

You want to do something for me Grace? ..Then please have a word in some big wig folks ears for me if you ever get the chance, there is heaps of other kids out there who would really thank you for it.

Grace said...

Dearest Gandolf,

As I have opportunity, I'll do as you ask.

Thank you for your honest sharing with me too.

Grace said...

Bronxboy,

Are you feeling offended, and angry with the Christians?

Truly, what I'm sharing with you is not a new idea in the church, a modern day concession.

The concept of universal salvation is ancient. Some of the early church fathers such as Clement of Alexandria, and Gregory of Nyssa were universalists.

My own husband is quite orthodox, and evangelical in the faith, but a universalist.

Also, there were early Christians who interpreted portions of Scripture in an allegorical way as well, so it is not without precedent for committed, modern day people of faith to believe that Genesis one was not given to be read as a perfectly literal, scientific account of human origins..

We can agree to disagree, Bronx.

Pax.

Chuck said...

grace

I will try to use analogy as a means of illustrating my distrust of you. An alcoholic gains power in his destruction through the loving support of those who desire a relationship to him. These people are called enablers and in addiction medicine are considered a symptom of the dysfunction. They keep the destruction alive in their apologies for the drunk. Your cognitive bias towards christianity works the same way as the enabler's does towards the addict. You deny the destruction history shows stemming from the false premise of clannish spiritual exclusivity simply because your desired relationship to it makes you feel good. You even miscast alternatives as deadly to keep your denial and enabling alive. I don't hat you or christianity but I don't trust you to be humble, honest, safe or whole.

Bronxboy47 said...

Grace,

Thanks for the gratuitous and totally unnecessary History of Christianity lesson. Nevertheless, I still fail to see how your pointing out the rise and fall and rise again of a heretical idea has any bearing on the gist of my arguments. Christianity has always been in a state of flux, with an endless parade of heresies and schisms effecting its overall shape. Hence, the "shape-shifting" label I applied to it.

In fact, I'd be willing to bet there are bible-believing members of your own Church who have their own private interpretation of various passages of scripture and of church doctrine, which they keep to themselves for the sake of peace. In fact, I'd say this applies to all churches everywhere. Christian uniformity of thought is a myth that allows the Christian to gain the upper hand in a debate by suddenly announcing "Well, that's not something I believe". Most Christians have secret reservations about many Christian doctrines. Even back in the late sixties, when I was taking catechism classes, it was obvious to me that the average young Catholic thought it perfectly acceptable to ignore those papal dictates with which they felt uncomfortable, starting with the prohibition on sex before marriage. Most of those kids are now senior citizens, many have left the Church, but those that remain keep their difference of opinion to themselves. The average Christian has no interest in theological arguments. They come to their religion for peace and comfort, not to engage in theological disputations. They come to be reassured that they, unlike their unchurched neighbors, are good people, and that even when they're not so good a couple of sessions on their knees, or crocodile tears in a confession booth, will set them right again.

Angry, did you say? Of course I'm angry. Religion has always been tied to politics and government. And now the adherents of three primitive desert religions are at each other's throats once again, and this time they are fully capable of igniting a universal conflagration. What's not to be angry about?

Bronxboy47 said...

Marcus,

I'll ask it once again. So what your suggesting is that God went out of his way, disturbing his own infinite bliss, to create a creature he knew to be capable of infinite offense. Have I got that right?

In fact, I'll add a bit: He went out of his way,disturbing his own eternal bliss, to create angels with free will, knowing that some of them would commit an infinite offense for which he would provide no salvation plan. There's that "Can't make an omelet with breaking eggs" philosophy again. Not much finesse there. And it's certainly a rather cavalier attitude about the ultimate fate of the creatures one is about to create.

mmcelhaney said...

@Bronxboy47

I answered your question and posed one of my own. You may have missed it. I'll state it again.

Yes, God chose to create Angels and us despite that fact that He knew we humans would all rebel and some of the angels would rebel against Him. This bring up the inevitable question: Why? You obviously have an emotional response to this and believe that this means that God is cavalier, irresponsible, and uncaring. However I have an answer and it;s not exhaustive but it is a start. You fail to understand the point I have been arguing. Therefore I will restate it: Without everything happening - without every single event happening exactly as it has you would not be the person you are now reading this web site. In some cases you would not even exist. That is true no matter who you and where you live. I'm suggesting that God created everything and placed you in the best possible place at the best possible time with all the life experiences that would best lead you to God. This isn't in absence of Jesus. Jesus was part of the plan from the beginning so that rebellious humanity can be reconciled back to God.(Read Acts 17). Why did God do it? Why did He choose to redeem us and offer no redemption to the fallen Angels. No where in scripture are angels described as being enslaved to sin. They know what they did and the implications. Humanity is decribed differently. We are enslaved to sin and for the most part don't even realize it. The Bible says "The wicked know not why they stumble." God in his mercy has chosen to save some of us from the wrath he must come and yet he not only loved humans enough to create humanity that he chose to make things play out so that every individual who exists would exist. You affect everyone and everyone affects you and even those are in God's ultimate plan that He is bringing forth. I don't know every facet of that plan but we have the promise that all the pain and suffering we go through will be worth it if we trust God. I'm not just talking sbout Heaven I'm talking about the plan being revealed.

So is God responsible? Yes! Now here comes the question that I already asked that you ignored: Who are you to hold Him Accountable?

Bronxboy47 said...

Marcus,

To have emotional responses to the facts of life is what it means to be human. Only sadists and the insane look upon horror and pronounce it good. Let's say I stood in a room and observed Nazi doctors experimenting on children. Would you say what I witnessed didn't merit an emotional response, or that because of my emotional response I wasn't understanding the situation correctly? The provision your fantasy God has made for sinful humanity permits far too many people to end up in a situation far worse than any Nazi medical experimentation. It impossible to permit such a situation while at the same time absolving oneself of any responsibility for it. Especially when there was nothing compelling you to create such a situation.

Your reasoning astonishes me. Are you suggesting that my individual life justifies the the loss of massive amounts of humanity to eternal damnation. If it were possible to wish myself out of existence knowing with absolute certainty that this would eliminate the possibility of anyone ever going to hell, what choice do you think I'd make? It's a no brainer for anyone with any genuine compassion. My individual life and desires or countless humans in hell for an eternity. I know the choice your fantasy God has made. That's why I consider him a monster.

You said:

Jesus was part of the plan from the beginning so that rebellious humanity can be reconciled back to God.(Read Acts 17)

But that's my point, most of humanity has not, and will not be reconciled (unless you are arguing for universal salvation). So at some point prior to creation your fantasy God must have decided that some of his angels and most of humanity were expendable in the execution of his divine plan. And like the Nazi officials who watched those medical experiments without batting an eye, you are perfectly willing to give your ice cold consent to your fantasy God's horrific machinations. I wish you continued success in justifying the unjustifiable. It's proven to be a relatively lucrative occupation for centuries. Especially for those who can't cut it in any other endeavor.

You need to stop offering justifications for God's behavior (his so-called salvation plan), since in your mind he clearly doesn't need to be justified at all. If creation began with all of us roasting on a spit, that would be perfectly okay in your total abdication of human morality. Just tell us all to S.T.F.U! That's what your fantasy God does.

Bronxboy47 said...

Marcus,

you asked: Why did God do it? Why did He choose to redeem us (Hold on, buddy, he didn't choose to redeem "us", he choose to redeem those of us willing to believe six impossible things before breakfast) and offer no redemption to the fallen Angels. No where in scripture are angels described as being enslaved to sin. They know what they did and the implications.

This is what you call an answer? The fact that the angels were not enslaved to sin? Prior to the fall Adam and Eve weren't enslaved to sin either. Both angels and mankind succumbed to sin by exercising God's gift of free will to make the wrong choice, which, given the nature of free will, was an inevitability that God was perfectly aware of. Are those sinning angels now enslaved to sin? And whether the answer be yes or no, what has this got to do with anything?

The fact remains. You fantasy God knew the end from the beginning, the amount of heartless waste involved in his creation plan, yet decided to put it into action and to hell with the consequences. I find it impossible to love a God like that. And if I can't love him, he doesn't get to live with me.

mmcelhaney said...

@Bronxboy47

But that's my point, most of humanity has not, and will not be reconciled (unless you are arguing for universal salvation). So at some point prior to creation your fantasy God must have decided that some of his angels and most of humanity were expendable in the execution of his divine plan. And like the Nazi officials who watched those medical experiments without batting an eye, you are perfectly willing to give your ice cold consent to your fantasy God's horrific machinations. I wish you continued success in justifying the unjustifiable. It's proven to be a relatively lucrative occupation for centuries. Especially for those who can't cut it in any other endeavor.

You need to stop offering justifications for God's behavior (his so-called salvation plan), since in your mind he clearly doesn't need to be justified at all. If creation began with all of us roasting on a spit, that would be perfectly okay in your total abdication of human morality. Just tell us all to S.T.F.U! That's what your fantasy God does.


We have every right to hold Nazis and fellow humans accountable for crimes against us. They are not better nor worse than us. God however is above us. Is He better than you and me? Yes. Is God accountable to you or to me? No God is not. Creation did not begin with us condemned already. I'm not abdicating human morality because without God we have no conception of morality. We have nothing. Without God we have evil without purpose. I'm saying that whatever God does is for the ultimate good of everyone and everything whether I understand or not. Bottom line.

Emotionalism is fine...as long as it does not cloud your judgment as you have allowed yours to do.

And to be clear...I'm not a universalist because the sacrifice was too high for God to redeem His people for everyone to just get a pass.

mmcelhaney said...

@Bronxboy47

I didn't say Adam and Eve were enslaved to sin...We are. I didn't include you in God redeeming us from sin. I was referring to those who trust and believe in God's promises. If that's not you...I wasn't including you is "us".

Bronxboy47 said...

And Christian emotionalism doesn't cloud your judgment? The emotional nonsense that churches get up to every Sunday (especially in Black churches) doesn't cloud Christians' judgment?

Bronxboy47 said...

Marcus,
How is a being who permits atrocities any better than the person who implements them? It's even worse in God's case since his permission amounts to a decree.

Once again, your argument boils down to "God is God, so S.T.F.U.!

Very enlightening.

mmcelhaney said...

@Bronxboy47

hmmmmm...kind of a racist statement about people you don't know right? I said that your emotionalism is clouding your reasoning because you seemed to think that you have the ability to judge God. Set aside your assumption that he does not exist for a moment and answer me this: Do you really think you are qualified to judge God's motives and decisions given that God is all-powerful and all-knowledgeable? How is that not arrogant? Would you let a two-year-old judge you for setting the time his/her going to bed?

Bronxboy47 said...

Racist statement? Wrong! I grew up in the Black church and am fully aware of the nonsense that goes on there-several nights a week.

Bronxboy47 said...

Marcus,

If it weren't for the emotional excitement and cathartic release to be found in the worship services of many Christian denominations , most of those churches (Black churches in particular) would have emptied out long ago.

Bronxboy47 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bronxboy47 said...

Marcus,

You keep harping on the fact that presume to judge God. I'm not judging God. There is no God. I'm judging your fantastic, anti-human notions about a hypothetical God. Those are horses of two entirely different colors.

I reserve the right to critique the details of any fantastic tale presented to me as fact. That's my right as a human with a working brain.

Chuck said...

Marcus I fail to see the usefulness of your moral principle and don't see how it egenders a mature and accountable ethic.

Bronxboy47 said...

Marcus said:

I don't know every facet of that plan but we have the promise that all the pain and suffering we go through will be worth it if we trust God. I'm not just talking about Heaven I'm talking about the plan being revealed.

So is God responsible? Yes! Now here comes the question that I already asked that you ignored: Who are you to hold Him Accountable?

(I've answered that in another post.)

Now it's my turn. I've asked you this before and you've ignored it. Perhaps you will favor me with an answer this time.

If your God is a law unto himself and accountable to no one; if he can drown everyone on the planet except for one family; if he is within his rights to determine who gets saved and who doesn't, why are you so certain he would never exercise his right lie to you and mislead you about his eventual plans for you? Why do you feel God is obligated to be honest with you. It is your human reason that recoils at the thought of such dishonesty and betrayal? But by your own admission, human reason is in no position to judge God. How are you so certain God would never betray you? So many of his actions could just as easily be attributed to an angry powerful demon.

K said...

Grace, sorry for the misunderstanding. Thanks for clarifying.

Grace said...

No problem, Kel.

Guys, it seems to me that more heat than light is being generated here. I like dialoguing, and sharing, but am not about debate, and hurling these insults back and forth.

Here's what I know. Knowing God in Christ has made me a more inclusive, less judgemental, loving kind of person.

There is a huge difference in just gettin religion, becoming enculturated into the institutional church, and becoming part of this
clannish, exclusive kind of thing that you're talking about, Chuck, and actually following Christ, being found in Him.

Jesus ate with outcasts, and partied with people that in His day were despised. He commanded us to love even our enemies.

We're told in the Scripture that nothing in all creation can separate us from the love of God in Him.

What did Paul say?

No power in the sky above or in the earth below--indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Is it enabling to understand the difference, and to be able to seperate all this out?

I'm not excusing or minimizing the abuses. Certainly they need to be addressed.

You feel the answer is to "debunk Christianity" wholesale, and promote atheism. To you all forms of faith must be found evil, comparable to alcohol addiction.

Words can't express how grieved I"m feeling for your pain, and what must have been a horrible experience in the church, to bring you to these views, and your mistrust, Bronx, and Chuck.

I'm sure I'm not the one with the power to change your mind.

But, I think the solution is to promote a healthy, and balanced spirituality, and address the abuse, not to simply "ditch the baby with the bathwater."

Now I"m outta here, guys. Give you all the last word.

Bronxboy47 said...

Marcus,

While you're scrambling to another incoherent response to my last post,here's something else for you to contemplate.

In Genesis God pronounced his creation good over and over again. In the New Testament (Matt 7:18 KJB,) Jesus tells us good trees do not bring forth evil fruit. In other words, there are no hidden evil seeds in good fruit. And yet, here we are, according to Christians, marinating in evil. But Jesus said it was impossible for a good tree to produce evil fruit. And yet God's creation produced so much evil fruit he decided to wipe everyone out, with the exception of one family, headed by a drunkard who found favor in his sight. (A clearer instance of God losing it would be hard to find. And yet this temper tantrum occurred in spite of his determination to sacrifice his son for his elect. For crying out loud! How many more anthropomorphic behaviors can you attribute to you fantasy God before you admit you're making it all up?)

So it appears almost every pronouncement in the bible is equivocal and begins to crumble the minute you put the slightest amount of pressure on it.

With God all things are possible, except for those things that are impossible, like the the creation of a world minus the threat of hell.

Evil cannot come from good, except when it does.

Faith alone will get you into heaven, except for the fact that faith without works is dead.

Faith the size of a mustard seed will move mountains, except for those mountains that remain stubbornly immobile. (Seen any dancing mountains lately? Neither have I.)

I could go on ad nauseum.

Chuck said...

So Grace

I assume that you support Homosexuals right to their 14th Amendment protections and don't seek to marginalize their constitutional protections based on 1st century metaethics.

I suppose you support a woman's right to choose.

I suppose you challenged the policies of torture and preemptive war authored by your fellow christian george bush.

I suppose you define me as someone other than an enemy of god.

I suppose you rail against the Discovery Institute and the christians their who lie to promote their religion via Intelligent Design.

More heat than light? Just because you have a culturally sanctioned numinous experience does not make that designation criticism-free. Your liberal christianity empowers a morality that defines the highest ethic as obedience to invisible authority. You throw out rhetoric to intimate enlightenment but only succeed in exposing your credulity.

Bronxboy47 said...

Marcus,

The acceptance of the Christian God by African-American slaves amounts to nothing more the wholesale outbreak of Stockholm Syndrome in the slave quarters.

We were compelled to completely sever our attachment to our ancestors and their traditions (as if they never existed) in favor of Master's God. Much of this was accomplished with the aid of a whip.

You ought to be ashamed of perpetuating this crime against your own people.

Bronxboy47 said...

And by the way, Marcus, humans are not pots of clay. we are sentient beings. We have feelings, we can be hurt, tortured, tormented--pots can't. It's only you Christians who equate the value of a human being with that of a clay pot.

mmcelhaney said...

@Bronxboy47

Well, if you grew up in a Black church then the statement was ignorant not racist. You claim that you are not judging God because God doesn't exist. However you rail against him for being callousness. You can't claim someone is evil and that He doesn't exist at the same time. You have every right to critique Christianity. However you should also be ready to have your views challenged also. You should also be ready to go beyond your assertion against God's existence by proving He doesn't. The fact that the world has evil in it does not invalidate God's existence. Your whole argument is that there is no God because if there was a God there would be no evil. God allows evil to persist because if he didn't and eradicated all evil He would have to start with you and me. It's in this present world we see God's love and forbearance and long suffering. If He wasn't He would have destroyed us a long time ago. You may think you have the right to critique God's plans and how He does them but you do not.

mmcelhaney said...

@Bronxboy47

You said:
If your God is a law unto himself and accountable to no one; if he can drown everyone on the planet except for one family; if he is within his rights to determine who gets saved and who doesn't, why are you so certain he would never exercise his right lie to you and mislead you about his eventual plans for you? Why do you feel God is obligated to be honest with you. It is your human reason that recoils at the thought of such dishonesty and betrayal? But by your own admission, human reason is in no position to judge God. How are you so certain God would never betray you? So many of his actions could just as easily be attributed to an angry powerful demon.


I know that God is honest with us because truth is a part of His Character. So is Judgment and Wrath. God has never betrayed me and has always kept his promises to me so far. I have no reason to think that will change. There is no proof at all that God lies. God is not obligated to be merciful. "Mercy" cannot be owed only given. Just because you did not understand my response did not mean that is incoherent. God could not create this world minus evil because it would be world without you or me or anyone who has ever lived past Adam and Eve. God has a purpose for each one of us. This is why we are here.

By the way, can you prove Noah was a Drunkard? Getting Drunk at a point in time does not make one a drunkard. Slander? You've got to do better than that. Shouldn't you be glad the Bible is full of flawed people that God related to? It should give you hope. It does to me and shows the value that God places on human life.

I didn't write the Bible. How can you assert that I'm making it up.

I don't understand everything and I do wonder where evil came from because the Bible does not say where the iniquity of Adam and Lucifer came from all I have is the clue of what is in my own heart. And it's not pretty. I'm not better than you just saved by God's mercy.

I take it you claim to have once been a christian? Then why would you write something as silly as:

Faith alone will get you into heaven, except for the fact that faith without works is dead.

Paul did not mean that you don't have to do anything but have faith. We are saved in order that we do good works. (Ephesians 2:10) and James was saying that of you don't do good works you have no faith. Where is this contradiction you are trying dredge up?

and you said: Faith the size of a mustard seed will move mountains, except for those mountains that remain stubbornly immobile. (Seen any dancing mountains lately? Neither have I.) Would a dancing mountain cause you to believe the Bible? Didn't think so. That is why there aren't any. IT would do nothing to fulfill God's purposes. Every miracle in the Bible had a purpose - a reason. It wasn't about pulling a trick just because.

Your appeal to our people's enslavement in America is strange. My great great grandmother was a slave and she gained her freedom because of the civil war and Mary Lucas praised God for her temporal and eternal salvation. She loved Jesus and she and my great great grandfather founded a church when they were freed. She would not agree with you. Her legacy of faith is mine and a gift from God. She didn't believe in God because her masters told her to. She knew God the same way I know Him. He had a relationship with her. And She trusted him and never gave up. That is what I know of the Christian legacy in American slavery. If she didn't blame God for the evil perpetrated on her and her peers why should you?

Compared to the infinitude of God I think "clay pot" is giving us a lot credit.

Bronxboy47 said...

@Marcus,

What exactly is the matter with you, Marcus? You can't possibly be dim enough to believe that when I criticize your imaginary conception of God that I am criticizing someone who actually exists.

Let me ask you this: Is Ayn Rand character John Galt a real individual? And if I criticize his many reprehensible traits, traits the author is trying to pass off on her readers as exemplary and worthy of praise, does that mean I believe he's real?

And now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said one word about there being no God because of the existence of evil in the world. You must have pulled that particular anti-atheist canard out of your moldy bag of tricks without checking to see whose name was attached to it. I think your flailing around, trying the buckshot approach. But you haven't even got me in your sights.

Yours is a combination of ignorance and intellectual dishonesty that, quite honestly, staggers me. I keep responding to your posts because I find it hard to believe anyone could be this dim-witted. But there is a limit, and you are rapidly approaching it.

mmcelhaney said...

@BronxBoy47

You are the one that brought up the problem of there being evil means that God is evil and that there is no God. If you are not saying that the existence of evil proves that there is no God then what point are you trying to make? What is your argument?

If you are tired of the exchange then repent for your arrogance. God forgives but His patience though long is limited. Otherwise come up with a substantive argument. {preferably one I have not heard before without all the anger.

GearHedEd said...

Marcus said,

"...Who is the better judge of right and wrong? You? Me? OR the one who created everything? And knows everything? Personally, I'd trust God over you. And I sure as heck don't wanna trust my ideas of right and wrong. I know myself too well."

Paraphrased, this says:

"I'm afraid to have an opinion of my own because God said X, Y and in the Bible."

You're a coward, Marcus. If you had any balls, you'd REALLY think for yourself, insteasd of not trusting your own brain.

Bronxboy47 said...

Marcus,

Whoops! What happened to your response to the first and most important part of my last post.

You see, that's exactly what I mean, Marcus, you grapple with the least important part of my post, while ignoring my direct response to something outrageously dim-witted you said.

How about responding to my response to your ridiculous assertion that you can't criticize something that doesn't really exist. Do that, and perhaps we can move on together to another topic. I'll wait.

GearHedEd said...

Grace said,

"...I mean, I think it is possible for people to willfully, and knowingly reject God, and deliberately choose evil."

So not believing in God is the definition of evil? Or are you just parroting something that you've heard so many times that it has lost it's meaning?

GearHedEd said...

Grace said,

"If Hell is the absence of God..."

If Hell is the absence of God, then we're all already in Hell, because God certaionly isn't HERE.

GearHedEd said...

Marcus said,

"I'm suggesting that God created everything and placed you in the best possible place at the best possible time with all the life experiences that would best lead you to God. This isn't in absence of Jesus. Jesus was part of the plan from the beginning so that rebellious humanity can be reconciled back to God."

Are you even aware of how ridiculous that story is? Even from the perspective of the non-existent god, it makes no sense.

UNLESS:

we throw out explanations that rely on god, mythologies that hold out hope for and NEED of salvation, and all "metaphysical"
phenomena.

THEN, it looks just like the world we actually live in.

mmcelhaney said...

@Bronxboy47 said

How about responding to my response to your ridiculous assertion that you can't criticize something that doesn't really exist. Do that, and perhaps we can move on together to another topic. I'll wait.

I did respond. I said prove that God does not exist. I'll wait.

Chris said...

Great post guys! This is a fantastic way to try and bring believers to your side.. And please guys; John Loftus does not need his ego stroked, PLEASE!!!!

GearHedEd said...

Marcus said,

"...Creation did not begin with us condemned already."

Bullshit!

God is omniscient, YES or NO. (I won't ask you to answer this, you already have, and you claim that the answer is YES).

Total knowledge includes all the consequences of every choice, past, present and future.

You say that God gave us free will.

IF free will is reality, then God CANNOT be omniscient, as he will never KNOW in advance what anyone will decide.

If God remains omniscient, then Adam and Eve had NO REAL CHOICE but to play the part God KNEW they would,

THEREFORE creation most certainly DID begin with us condemned already.

OR:

It's all a fable, and all your apologetics add up to precisely zero.

Gandolf said...

Marcus said... "Do you really think you are qualified to judge God's motives and decisions given that God is all-powerful and all-knowledgeable? How is that not arrogant? Would you let a two-year-old judge you for setting the time his/her going to bed?"

Though maybe they is powerful, would it be ok for a two year old to judge an abusive adult of being wrong, if so happened the adult was an abusive nasty thoughtless person Marcus? .If a two year had an adult who treated them bad,put them in grave danger, and then beat them when they got hurt...Or even worse, sent them away to some eternal torment in the fires of hell.

Should the two year old have any right, to suggest maybe this treatment seems rather injust?.

You have faith blinker on Marcus.Your faith and fear stops you using any real logic and common sense.

Bronxboy has tried to explain .He doesnt judge God .He just doesnt see its common sense or even any logic that you rude nasty and thoughtless IDEA of a God ...Even exists

Bronxboy is only judging, the wrong thought! of ignorant nasty ancient people, who sadly mostly didnt really know any better.They lived back in harsh times, and so thought up harsh ideas.

By judging that, he aint judging any God at all.He is judging the wrong thinking

Wake up Marcus.Lets keep it real

GearHedEd said...

Marcus said,

"...Do you really think you are qualified to judge God's motives and decisions given that God is all-powerful and all-knowledgeable?"

The problem with this question is the "given".

I do NOT concede that God is a "given", let alone any of his rumored attributed.

GearHedEd said...

uh, "attributes", with an 's'.

Bronxboy47 said...

@Marcus

No, Marcus, you did not respond you sidestepped the issue, one more time.

One last try, Marcus. You said:

You claim that you are not judging God because God doesn't exist. However you rail against him for being callousness. You can't claim someone is evil and that He doesn't exist at the same time.

And I responded by saying (and I'll restate it for you here):

If I speak angrily and harshly about Ayn Rand's fictional character, John Galt, that certainly doesn't mean I believe the character is real. What it does mean is that I disagree quite strongly with the values and ideas Rand's main character embodies, which she is promoting to a gullible public.

I believe the bible to be a work of fiction, not unlike any of the horrendous novels of Ayn Rand. And if I criticize the values, character, and behavior of the bible's main protagonist, that certainly doesn't mean I believe he exists. I am simply pointing out the dangers of allowing oneself to be influenced by the horrific values and intentions of a fictional character.

The question wasn't whether god existed or not--we both know that can't be proven one way or the other, the question was can something be criticized without having to believe in its actual existence. Is it possible to be heatedly opposed to an idea without believing the idea to be true.

Let's put it another way. Is it possible to criticize a person's conception of god without believing that particular god actually exists. You know the answer to that. That why you're not a Buddhist, a Muslim, or a Hindu. Get real. Even better, get honest.

Bronxboy47 said...

Thanks for the support, guys. This is my first series of exchanges with Marcus, and his responses are so off the wall it's like watching an accident happen. I know I should turn away, but I just can't. At least not initially. If he keeps it up much longer, I will certainly kick the dirt off my heels and move on.

All I'm asking is for one single intelligent, intelligible, honest, non-evasive response to any one of my posts. Is that too much to ask?

GearHedEd said...

Marcus isn't capable of "intelligible', Bronx.

You're going to be waiting for a looooong time.

Bronxboy47 said...

GearHeadEd,

I fear you may be right. Still, where there's life, there's hope.

mmcelhaney said...

@GearHedEd.

I never conceded that free will is a reality as you have defined it and I have stated that many, many times. It's a red herring argument that you just won't let go of. Adam and Eve were responsible because they did what they wanted to do just as you and I do when we sin. God knew we were gonna fall but He didn't force us to. That is why I say Adam did not start off condemned.
I'm not afraid to have an opinion of my own: The Bible is right and anyone who disagrees with the Bible is a liar. That's my opinion.
I know the Gospel doesn't make sense to you. No surprise. I just wish that would be more illustrative about what makes no sense to you. Just because you don't get it doesn't make it false. Considering your arguments, I don't think you know the meaning of the word "intelligible".

mmcelhaney said...

@Bronxboy47...the existence of God is important. You can't defend your arguments about the right to criticize God and then when I challenge your criticism as being false assert that God does not exist. You said:

You keep harping on the fact that presume to judge God. I'm not judging God. There is no God. I'm judging your fantastic, anti-human notions about a hypothetical God. Those are horses of two entirely different colors.

I still think you are just railing against me but aren't raising a point. If you don't believe there is a God then what does it matter? If you are saying that you disagree with my characterization of God then prove that what I am saying is not Biblical. So far you have done nothing but assert that you disagree and that you have a right to disagree. That's not a contention I agree with you. You have the right to be wrong and pay for the consequences of being wrong. That's not what this conversation is about. You raised the problem of evil as proof that my understanding of reality is wrong. But you haven't explained why you disagree with my answer for why there is evil.

So what is your evidence and proof that God does not exist? I thought that was the point you were making. If not what was it? You are trying to argue that you have the right to critique an idea or concept that you don't believe exists. Fine. But what's the point? What is the point in wasting the time and thought energy to criticize a fiction with such emotional anger. All I did was tell you that I disagree with your assertion that God is not real and I think you should back up such a baseless assertion. I've been arguing from the viewpoint of this is what the Bible says about God and it's consistent and makes sense given what it reveals of God's character and attributes. If I were to argue that Buddhist, Muslim, or Hindu's conception of God were wrong I'd bring a lot more than what you have brought here to argue that the Bible is wrong. That is what I'm taking issue with. I'm saying I think you protesting too much with way too much emotion about something that you say you think is not real. Do you hate John Galt? I don't think so. Do you hate the very thought that there is one whom no matter what you say or do you are accountable to? I think you do. So you basically want me to just give up and say "You know you are right. The Bible makes no sense and you are right to reject it." Right? Well I can't honestly do that. That's not what the evidence says. If it makes you feel better I'll state things this way: You are not qualified to judge the Bible's description of God's Character and decisions. Better? Didn't think so. This discussion necessitates the discussion about whether or not God exists. Because if God does not exist you are right and I am wrong. If God does exist, I'm right.

mmcelhaney said...

@Gandalf

Your analogy of an abused two year-old does not match humans' relationship to God prior to salvation. God does not abuse us. A better analogy would be a rebellious teen-ager who never listens, curses his parents, rapes and kills people, steals and all kinds of evil, and then instead of killing the son, the a powerful and rich person (God) adopts the teenager as a child, pays the son's jail bail, makes restitution, helps the son to get educated and turn his life around, and then buys him a car and a house, and then gives him an opportunity to help others do the same. That much better describes what God does.

If you wanna stick to the two year-old, A two year-old thinks they are abused when they don't get their way. I know. I have one.
We also fit that definition when relating to God. Not giving your child everything they think they want is not abuse...that is good parenting.

I sure would like to know what is rude, nasty, and thoughtless about what I've written about salvation. What's ugly about what the Bible is saying? Is it offensive that lots of people have and will continue to turn their back on God and go to hell? Why should that bother you? They are getting what they think they want - God out of their lives. Hell doesn't bother me because in Christ there is no condemnation. No guilt. No fear. If you don't feel guilt or fear why all the hatred for my merely expressing what I know to be true?

Gandolf said...

Marcus said..." All I did was tell you that I disagree with your assertion that God is not real and I think you should back up such a baseless assertion."

Bronxboy never made any assertion Marcus.

Until you actually prove God actually exists, it is infact you! thats making all the assertions around here fool.

This is a big part of what Bronxboy has actually been trying to ease into your brain matter,a pretty near impossible task i must admit, when one really needs to start wondering, just how much brain matter actually do even exist in your skull.

If Bronxboys suggestion that God doesnt exist is only an assertion , then so is it only a assertion to suggest pink unicorns,gremlins,talking donkeys and snakes,ghosts,trolls,gold under rainbows,magical tea pots circling mars dont exist either.

You see Marcus you come here asserting your God and his rules evidently recorded in your bible ,and waffle on here as if your fictional fairy tale is already a proven fact.A big mistake.

Dont you see how utterly stupid that is Marcus.Dont you see whos the actual real fool around here who`s the one actually been making all the "assertions", as if they is already proven fact.

Now Bronxboy is well within his right to be questioning your fictional fairytale story even if it has history mixed in with it.Crikey we still make fictional movies today, that have bits of history mixed in also.

No its you making all the "assertions" around here that your God exists and expects what your fairytale book and you "assert" he does .

Bronxboy disagreeing with your mere "assertions" is not any assertion ,its a valid right to observe you have so far provided absolutely no good evidence for any good reason we should see what you suggest as being anything more than what it is ...An unfactual assertion ...and a ignorant pitiful one at that

Now before you start blaming Bronxboy of making assertions ...You need to prove your god and exist and then prove what he wants.

And no! the "assertions" of "prophets" and your "bible" aint proof either.They is just more worthless "assertions" too Marcus.

Me "disagreeing" with a "idea" that nasty troll likely do wait under bridges, to ensnare those who dare to try crossing bridges.Is no more of any assertion, than Bronxboy disagreeing with your ideas of God.

Nobody has proved trolls actually do live under bridges, and neither has anyone yet proved Gods.

Do you really suggest its only an assertion people make when they dont agree with people fictional fairy tales story about Trolls under bridges too?.

What kind of fool are you Marcus.Cant you see how totally absurd and utterly stupid it really is, that its you! around here actually foolishly "accusing" others of making the assertions?.

Get real ... making assertions is about all you ever did so far here on DC.

Just another! bible thumper in a long long line of sad arse lost bible thumpers ..all "asserting" its actually all is a proven fact and is actually true.

Like you already know."Assertions" just aint enough.

For if they are ,then we humans would have need to fear Trolls under bridges too .

Can you totally disprove the existence of Trolls Marcus?.Because my book of classical trollism suggest maybe you have need to repent to Trolls and if you dont sooner or later the almighty Troll will finally have had enough of your disobedience and willful unbelief.And will swallow you up and send you off into eternal pain and suffering for your sin.

My assertion of Trollism, though maybe not as well documented as your God ,none the less is not really so much any more of an assertion than yours.

For neither yet have any real "decent" proof that can honestly be classed as a well proven fact.

Stop this utter shit of blaming Bronxboy, of being the one around here guilty of making the assertions Marcus.

Gandolf said...

Marcus said.."If you wanna stick to the two year-old, A two year-old thinks they are abused when they don't get their way. I know. I have one.
We also fit that definition when relating to God. Not giving your child everything they think they want is not abuse...that is good parenting."

This is whats actually such a worry, that harsh ignorant christian bible thumpers are even allowed to have children in their care.

If you actually think its good parenting to be the "creator" of children and fully (knowingly) bring them into harms way (conceive) ,and then hold them totally responsible for getting hurt, ((even when it is (you) that goes and (knowingly) leaves some very extremely dangerous objects in their way)), and then even much worse you just going to go punishing and totally blaming them! for everything about it?.And then if so happens they dont end up loving you,you then gonna send them off to some eternal place of suffering to top matters off?.

What kind of parent is that? ..A nasty and unkind one thats who.Someone who accept no responsibility even when he`s also played a part in matters.

Grace where are you, are you reading this .You need to go quick to visit Marcuses home too ..Keep a eye on the well being and care of his children ,it might even be best to remove them for safegarding from this faith ignorance.

This man by his faith, says he would create his children, (knowingly full well by his own action he is also putting his children in possibility of harms way),and would then hold them children as being the ones being totally responsible! for absolutely everything!.(When they didnt even ask to be born in the first place.)

You shouldnt have children in your care Marcus, children dont deserve to be born to thoughtless nasty ignorant harsh people like you .It is also a disgusting crime! that our countries even allow ignorant faithful pricks like you to even get to have children in their care.Thinking counseling will likely ever be enough to try pick up the peices afterwards.Forget about the problem abortions for a second,what about some rights! of childrens protection! from the extreme (bad luck) of being dealt the bad blow of the chance of being born to these religious ignorant thoughtless uncaring gits.A child forced into this situation, simply would suffer far less with an abortion.

This is the sort of thing what serriously needs to change Grace.We cant really ever expect to be so likely to have loving caring communitys, while all these nasty "groups" of christian still infest our societies like the cancer it is.

Its just not a good role model.

Gandolf said...

Marcus said.."That is what I'm taking issue with. I'm saying I think you protesting too much with way too much emotion about something that you say you think is not real. Do you hate John Galt? I don't think so. Do you hate the very thought that there is one whom no matter what you say or do you are accountable to? I think you do. So you basically want me to just give up and say "You know you are right."

Does John Galt infest our world like a terminal cancer, with groups of Galt-tians who are extremely bad role models, having ignoarant nasty faiths Marcus ?

No he dont.

Something dont need to be real, to still warrant vigorous protesting.

You think we fear being accountable to Gods?.

Wrong.Very wrong.

What we fear is idiots who have always guessed about Gods, who now infest our world like a terminal cancer.We fear their ancient ignorant thoughts/faiths born back in very barbaric times! when ancient men also did such uncivilized stuff as nailing folks on crosses and stoning people to death.Barbarrians who also once even used to be involved in the ignorant sacrifice of humans and animals too.

Comparing this situation to John Galt ...pfftttt ...Get real

John Galt dont effect us all so much ...Faith does

Grace said...

Chuck, Lord have mercy.

Of course, I define you as so much more than "an enemy of God."

You are significant,and precious.

Why am I hanging out around here, otherwise? God help me. :)

It is not about blind obedience, but love.

I certainly am supportive of gay marriage. IMO, the Scripture is not addressing the issue of people who are constitutionally gay, and involved in committed, and loving relationships. It is speaking of something else altogether.

Chuck, I really do not define myself as a "liberal Christian." I know it must seem this way to you, coming from evidently such a very conservative, and Calvinist background.

But, in truth, I am very orthodox,and evangelical in the faith, completely affirming the Nicene Creed of the church, and confessing Jesus Christ as Savior, and Lord.

Chuck, perhaps it would help if you shared with me more of your church background.

I have to go for now, but will come back and share more of my thinking in some of these other issues. I actually would like to hear your input, and opinions as well.

My political views are more libertarian, and I haven't clarified all my thinking about some of this stuff, so it would be also helpful for me to have this discussion with you.

I would only ask that we respond to each other with respect, and not resort to insults or personal attack, that we could be kind.

Are you cool with this?

I'm out the door for now.

Grace said...

Ah, Gear, I just saw your post.

No, I think there is a difference between people who are open, and searching, but unable to trust in God's love, or believe in Him, for now... and a knowing, and active rejection of God.

What you stated reminded me of a quote by C.S. Lewis. I'll see if I can find it.

Guys, I'm actually starting to get lost in all this posting back, and forth. Please don't think it's deliberate if I don't respond.

I've probably missed the comment.

GearHedEd said...

Marcus said,

"I never conceded that free will is a reality as you have defined it and I have stated that many, many times. It's a red herring argument that you just won't let go of. Adam and Eve were responsible because they did what they wanted to do just as you and I do when we sin."

Adam and Eve never existed. It is a fable, designed to trap weak-minded folks.

Bronxboy47 said...

Marcus,

God may not be real, but Christians who want to see homosexuals executed are. God may not be real, but Christians willing to kill other Christians who disagree with them have been real for centuries. (The soil of Europe is soaked in the blood of religious dispute, and though the bloodshed has abated for the moment, given enough power (which they are now actively trying to accumulate), that whole cycle could start up again in the blink of an eye.)

God may not be real, but Christians who are proud to remain stubbornly ignorant about science and who bitterly resent and resist its conclusions while at the same time being more than willing to take advantage of all the gifts scientific inquiry has brought to the world are.

God may not be real, but Christians who would let their child to die rather than allow a hospital to give a blood transfusion are.

God may not be real, but Christians who force their own child to drink acid and die because they suspect the child of being a witch are.

God may not be real, but Christians who want to impose ancient biblical laws on a modern democratic nation are.

God may not be real, but Christians who won't rest until our entire country has pledged allegiance to their God are.

God may not be real, but Christians who couldn't care less about scientific advancement or human progress, but are more than willing to just wait for Armageddon to solve everything are.

You ask me why I waste my time and energy being angry at a God I don't believe in. And I repeat, it's the notion of God that angers me. It's the notion of a god that wants every knee to bow and every tongue to confess that he is real and sovereign, while his followers execute suspected witches and known homosexuals, allow their children to die for lack of a blood transfusion, refuse to help stop the spread of a disease by using condoms, attempt to take over a democratic government and replace its secular laws with biblical law.

You Christians pose a very aggressive threat to the existence of our secular nation. But you can't see why I should waste my time and energy combating such horrific, ignorant nonsense. And you can't see it because your world view doesn't allow you to respect anyone's view but your own. Everyone else is wrong, except Christians, and not even all Christians, just those who believe what you believe, because quite obviously, if they don't agree with you then they must be under the influence of the devil, because you couldn't possibly be wrong about anything. God speaks to you, and his voice has always been crystal clear, and its impossible that the voice you hear might be the devil deceiving you, although we are told he has the power to deceive even the saints. But God would never allow that to happen to you. You are special. He tells you so. And you, in your pride masquerading as humility, are more than willing believe him.

You have no sense of history or of the vast waste of human lives. Those believing Christians who were killed by other Christian, century after century, aren't even worthy of a moment's reflection. There's nothing to be learned there.

Actually, there's a hell of a lot to be learned there, but I doubt that you will ever be willing to see it.

I'm done with you, Brother.

GearHedEd said...

Marcus asks,

"If you don't believe there is a God then what does it matter?"

It matters because of the Discovery Institute attempting to crowbar their views into science classrooms as science when they have NO EVIDENCE to support their claims.

It matters because of the fundamentalist Christians in this society who mistakenly call America a "Christian Nation", and would introduce legislation that not only abridges my right to freedom FROM religion, but would effectively turn this great country into a putrid theocracy.

It matters because atheists are vilified by the Christian majority as "evil", simply because we don't believe in the fairy tales to which you've devoted your life.

Shall I go on?

GearHedEd said...

Marcus said,

"...If I were to argue that Buddhist, Muslim, or Hindu's conception of God were wrong I'd bring a lot more than what you have brought here to argue that the Bible is wrong..."

I for one seriously doubt that you've devoted anywhere near the same amout of time to what you consider false religions as you have to studying the Bible. In that regard, I also seriously doubt you could (or would even desire to) mount an intelligent rebuttal to any other religion.

You demonstrate over and over that you believe ONLY in the Bible, but like I said before, "consistent is not the same as correct".

We point out inconsistencies in the stories; difficulties with the basic theology; problems with the chronology; paradoxes related to the attributes generously piled upon your god; refutations of obviously mythological and magical passages; and the only answer we ever get is bible verses and apologetics.

You say to us,

"Prove the Bible is not true."

I say to you,

Prove that it IS true. Back up what you're saying with REAL evidence, not self-referential scriptures and the Christian spin called apologetics.

GearHedEd said...

Marcus said,

"...If it makes you feel better I'll state things this way: You are not qualified to judge the Bible's description of God's Character and decisions. Better? Didn't think so. This discussion necessitates the discussion about whether or not God exists. Because if God does not exist you are right and I am wrong. If God does exist, I'm right."

Why did you stop there? Prove god exists, but you can't reference the Bible to do so.

Unfair, you say? If there's only ONE SOURCE and no independent conformation, then you have NO evidence; all you have is claims.

GearHedEd said...

thats confirmation...

GearHedEd said...

Marcus asks,

"...Is it offensive that lots of people have and will continue to turn their back on God and go to hell? Why should that bother you? They are getting what they think they want - God out of their lives."

You still don't get it.Atheists aren't in the business of "separating themselves from an extant god like some petulant teenager who scorns the "gifts" he's been given, nor are most atheists angry at god for having "done something" disagreeable to them in the past.

Like Loftus, (and atheists DON'T worship him; atheists don't worship ANYTHING), most atheists see the fable for the clumsy set of ill-conceived stories without objective evidence to back them up that it IS.

You believe different, and that's really OK with us, but stop the passive-agressive "it's YOU who have separated yourselves from God, so you'll get what you deserve in the afterlife" bit.

No God, no immortal soul, no original sin, no heaven, no hell, no afterlife, no angels, no devils, no divine 'purpose', no omniscience to prevent free will.

No "accountability to a higher authority".

If YOU need godly threats to behave, then fine for you. I can control my own behavior without them, and so can ALL the other atheists I know.

And I do.

GearHedEd said...

Grace,

My problem with your statement,

"...I mean, I think it is possible for people to willfully, and knowingly reject God, and deliberately choose evil."

isn't so much the imputation of evil, but the presumption that god exists in all cases whether we believe or not, and that atheism is thus characterized as a "willful separation from (an objectively extant) God". I'm not speaking for anyone else here, as atheists have a range of thinking on the subject, but for me, I could find no way to believe in those fantastic stories in the Bible. Even as a child, I KNEW the world doesn't work that way.

I know this denies the Bible, the Nicene Creed and everything anyone ever learned in Sunday School; but the best "proof" I've ever seen for God is the cheap debate tactic of having once postulated God, he cannot now be DISproven, because it's impossible to prove a negative proposition in all cases.

Note that debates can be "won" or "lost" despite the facts, based on the strategies and cunning of the debaters.

Bronxboy47 said...

Grace,
What on earth is a " knowing, active rejection of God", other than an unexamined phrase bandied about in sermons and Sunday schools. To adamantly refuse to accept and conform to what you know to be true and in your own best interest is a sign of a deranged personality. That person must be in the grip of forces beyond his control.

This is precisely why I can't believe in the myth of Satan's fall from grace. Christians would have us to believe that God's favorite angel, a being existing in the actual presence of God, looking upon his very face, could be so deranged and self-deceived as to deliberately rebel against what he knows , beyond any shadow of a doubt, to be his only good and the only thing sustaining his existence.

So, Grace, please explain to me how one can actively and knowingly reject what one know to be true with out already being hopelessly deranged.

Bronxboy47 said...

@ Grace,

On Satan's Fall From Grace

To speak of the unprompted emergence out of nowhere of a malice so unfathomably deep as to reject one's maker and attempt to sabotage his creation, is to postulate yet another uncaused cause. We are told the angels have free will. Free will to do what? To reject and rebel against an omnipotent God? That would be sheer and utter folly, and the angels damn well knew it. And yet, we are asked to believe that, nevertheless, some made the choice to rebel. Now I ask you, how brain damaged would you have to be to make a decision like that?

Bronxboy47 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bronxboy47 said...

Grace,

And please don't answer me, as Marcus would, that angels don't have brains!

GearHedEd said...

I'm wondering to what purpose angels might NEED free will... One presumes that before the creation of the universe (or so we're told) there was ONLY God, heaven, and the angels.

What ACTS were in the realm of possibility for such beings, besides praising God for having created them?

Bronxboy47 said...

Has anyone else bothered to visit Marcus' Favorite Fiction site? I was shocked, shocked I tell you, to find the site literally covered with images of half-naked female super hero characters--battling it out in grudge matches no less!!! All the images are of female super heroes with super racks to match.
What utter hypocrisy! And this from the guy who preaches against fornication and pre-marital sex.

Well, at least he's providing his repressed male Christian visitors with free--and to his mind, perfectly innocent--jerk-off material

It certainly comes as no surprise that his favorite fiction doesn't rise above the level of super hero comic books.

Grace said...

Chuck back to answer your other questions, now.

I'm certainly opposed to torture, and personally can't see how a Christian could take any other position. God help them. Who would Jesus torture?

To my sorrow, I did initially support the war in Iraq feeling that Hussein did possess these weapons of mass destruction, and wanting to see freedom from tyranny for the Iraqi people.

In retrospect, I now think this war was a grave error. We should have found other means to deal with this murderous dictator.

As a follower of Jesus, I've mightily struggle with my natural inclination toward total pacifism, and the realization that because we live in a broken, fallen world, sometimes force, even lethal force is needed to protect the lives of the innocent.

I think we live with this tension. But, my heart is always for peace, and above all feel that Christians should be known as "peacemakers," willing to go the extra mile to avoid armed conflict, and then some.

I personally am very pro-life, affirming the sanctity of human life, even to the opposition of the death penalty. It seems to me that we do need to tighten restrictions relating to abortion especially in the later stages of pregnancy. But, I don't feel that we can outlaw this practice altogether especially in the first trimester, and in situations involving the life of the mother, or horrific circumstances such as rape, or incest.

It's an uncomfortable compromise for me, Chuck. This is another one of those difficult issues relating to our brokenness, and falleness. There is no perfect answer to my mind.

Definitely feel that as a Christian believer we need to present more caring alternatives for women caught in crisis pregnancies.

I lean more toward theistic evolution, and do not believe that the evidence is there especially to support the theory of a young earth.

However, as a libertarian, I do feel that people should have the right to explore, and to express their views, and would not want to see this taken away by government control.

How far this should be discussed in the public schools, I'm not certain. I suppose I can see no harm in open dialogue

. It seems to me also a matter of personal, and academic freedom. But, perhaps I"m wrong in this. My libertarian bias is showing.

Well, hope I've covered all the comments. What is your opinion of these matters, Chuck?

All Christian believers will not agree, that's for sure. But, I'm feeling that we need to love, and care for one another through our differences.

Grace said...

Hi, Bronx,

I'm sure I don't know the definitive answer to your question, not having even a passing acquaintance with the "Old Nick," or any of his cohorts. :)

I'm teasin abit.

But, seriously, looking at this in human terms, I think there probably is a level of what we would view as a warped mental derangement there, a pride, malice, and self-centeredness that goes deeper than anything we know, or can fully comprehend.

Gear, the quote I was thinking of relating to CS Lewis, and Hell reads:

“Hell begins with a grumbling mood, always complaining, always blaming others . . . but you are still distinct from it. You may even criticize it in yourself and wish you could stop it. But there may come a day when you can no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticize the mood or even to enjoy it, but just the grumble itself, going on forever like a machine.

It is not a question of God ’sending us’ to hell. In each of us there is something growing, which will BE Hell unless it is nipped in the bud.”

What do you think of it?

Bronxboy47 said...

Grace,

What do I think of it? I think your facile answer proves that you fail to grasp the dimensions of the questions I raised.

Bronxboy47 said...

Could God possibly be suffering from boredom?

Here's the scenario:

God creates man without free will, but fully capable of feeling and experiencing his love. (I, for one, would gladly sacrifice my free will for the chance to spend a safe and blissful eternity in the presence of a loving God. Sounds like something that would be more intense than an eternal orgasm.)

So, obviously, that would be good for man, but not so good for God. Why? Because God doesn't want to be loved by robots, we're told.

Now here's my question: Why would God want to be loved at all? Was there something missing in his home life that sent him searching for love in all the wrong places? Is there some gaping hole in his heart that needs to be filled, and only a non-robotic lover will fit the bill?

Better yet, why would a totally self-contained, blissfully carefree God be in need of anything at all?

On the one hand, blissful quietude, on other, the agonized screaming of millions of bodies in hell. What the heck, let's go for the excitement.

Grace said...

I would not think it good, Bronx.

I wouldn't want to be like a mindless robot, only loving God like a Stepford Wife. It wouldn't be real.

I'm personally don't feel there is a void in God, that He needs our love.

It seems to me that the universe is simply a natural manifestation of His love, and He created us to share in that.

Bronx, do you come from a churched background? Have you been deeply thinking about these spiritual matters for sometime?

Bronxboy47 said...

Grace,

Again, facile answer. You have no way of knowing you'd prefer free will over simply being consumed in God's love. How could you possibly know that without first having experienced the full force of God's love? Apparently you don't put much store by the majesty of the mouth stopping, question killing, presence of God. Under my scenario you wouldn't have any knowledge of robots with which to compare yourself. You would simply be engulfed by endless waves of God's love and probably wouldn't have the wiggle room to do much thinking about anything other than it's incalculable sweetness. But no, you're certain that wouldn't be enough for you. Again, how do you reach such a conclusion?

Bronxboy47 said...

By now it should be pretty obvious that I come from a christian background. Only a ex-Christian is likely to get so pissed off when scales fall from his eye and realizes he's allowed himself to be hustled.

Grace said...

What led you to think you had been hustled? Were you a Christian believer for many years, Bronx?

But, I think you are right, it only seems to be the "ex-Christians," who seem so very angry.

Most secular people I know really don't care one way or the next. It's just something that's not much on their radar screen at all.

mmcelhaney said...

@Gandalf...there is so much hate and fear in you, I pity you. It's sad. You have no arguments just personal attacks on me and my family. Really said. Have you got anything else? Guess not. God Love you. I hope you will someday come to that realization.

@GearHedEd...You claim that you and Bronxboy are not making assertions without proof yet you said:


Adam and Eve never existed. It is a fable, designed to trap weak-minded folks.


That's a claim for which you offer no proof.

And you also wrote:

It matters because of the Discovery Institute attempting to crowbar their views into science classrooms as science when they have NO EVIDENCE to support their claims.

You claim that there is no evidence for creation or intelligent design yet you have yet to bring up any of the things they offer as evidence and rebutt them...this is just another assertion that could easily be evidenced if you were right.


It matters because of the fundamentalist Christians in this society who mistakenly call America a "Christian Nation", and would introduce legislation that not only abridges my right to freedom FROM religion, but would effectively turn this great country into a putrid theocracy.

Another assertion. No proof. Name one law in a single state that does what you claim. However, I dod agree with you America is not nor ever has been a Christian Nation founded completely on the Bible. At least we agree on something.


It matters because atheists are vilified by the Christian majority as "evil", simply because we don't believe in the fairy tales to which you've devoted your life.

I never said atheists are evil. I've always said that all people are evil and deserving of Hell. Without Jesus and his atoning sacrifice we are all doomed. Yet you keep acting as if I;'m saying that I'm better and more deserving of God's grace then you because I believe in God. I never said that. Grow up.


Shall I go on?

You mean go on introducing red herrings and smokescreens? Do you mean to keep railing against me for things I don't even believe and can't be supported in the Bible such as that Christians should seek to turn America into a theocray? By all mean, knock yourself out. You keep saying that God is a fiction. That God is not real and yet run and hide saying that you don't need to prove it. Stop saying that if you can't prove it. I've got evidence for God. I keep presenting it,,,including data from outside the Bible but you ignore it. So instead of rehashing my arguments I'm going to point you to some sources to help you get your head right.

http://mmcelhaney.blogspot.com/2010/03/stand-to-reason-blog-atheists-non.html

http://mmcelhaney.blogspot.com/2010/06/greg-koukl-on-definition-of-atheism.html

http://mmcelhaney.blogspot.com/2010/06/greg-koukl-common-new-atheist-fallacies.html

http://www.truefreethinker.com/articles/prove-%E2%80%9Cgod%E2%80%9D

Look at them don't look at them. Your choice. If you do respond to these I'm expecting more than "It's wrong". You need to show why it's wrong or don't bother. Also respond in kind...so far there has been good evidence presented on this site against God's existence. Can you do better? I doubt it.

mmcelhaney said...

@Bronxboy74

On Satan's Fall From Grace

To speak of the unprompted emergence out of nowhere of a malice so unfathomably deep as to reject one's maker and attempt to sabotage his creation, is to postulate yet another uncaused cause. We are told the angels have free will. Free will to do what? To reject and rebel against an omnipotent God? That would be sheer and utter folly, and the angels damn well knew it. And yet, we are asked to believe that, nevertheless, some made the choice to rebel. Now I ask you, how brain damaged would you have to be to make a decision like that?


Why shouldn't the angels be that stupid? I mean you are.

mmcelhaney said...

@Bronxboy74


Has anyone else bothered to visit Marcus' Favorite Fiction site? I was shocked, shocked I tell you, to find the site literally covered with images of half-naked female super hero characters--battling it out in grudge matches no less!!! All the images are of female super heroes with super racks to match.
What utter hypocrisy! And this from the guy who preaches against fornication and pre-marital sex.

Well, at least he's providing his repressed male Christian visitors with free--and to his mind, perfectly innocent--jerk-off material

It certainly comes as no surprise that his favorite fiction doesn't rise above the level of super hero comic books.


I don't enjoy superhero fiction because of sexual repression. Says a lot about you if you think that way though. Turns out that you have standards higher that God - you think. No wonder you left the church. You obviously didn't read my site because if you did you would have noticed that it is about a video game. Kinda shows your reading comprehension level. Sad really. Looks like I'll need to pray even harder for you.

Bronxboy47 said...

Someone needs to tell Marcus I don't respond to morons.

I'm too busy drooling over the deliberately sexually provocative poses on display at his Favorite Fiction site. These images would be right at home in a comic book version of Playboy magazine.

mmcelhaney said...

@Bronxboy47 said

God may not be real, but Christians who want to see homosexuals executed are. God may not be real, but Christians willing to kill other Christians who disagree with them have been real for centuries. (The soil of Europe is soaked in the blood of religious dispute, and though the bloodshed has abated for the moment, given enough power (which they are now actively trying to accumulate), that whole cycle could start up again in the blink of an eye.)

Truth of the matter is that God had nothing to do with those wars. They were over land, money, and power with religion as a pretext. And I don't want homosexuals killed. Why would I want that. I want all to come to Christ in repentance.


God may not be real, but Christians who are proud to remain stubbornly ignorant about science and who bitterly resent and resist its conclusions while at the same time being more than willing to take advantage of all the gifts scientific inquiry has brought to the world are.


I have two degrees in Engineering and a degree in Computer Science I love science. There is nothing in Bible that tells us to behave that way.


God may not be real, but Christians who would let their child to die rather than allow a hospital to give a blood transfusion are.


Where does the Bible say that medication and blood transfusions are wrong. That's not Christianity. That's Jehovah Witness.

mmcelhaney said...

@bronxboy47


God may not be real, but Christians who force their own child to drink acid and die because they suspect the child of being a witch are.


Nothing in the Bible condones that and neither I nor anyone I know who believes the Bible would agree.


God may not be real, but Christians who want to impose ancient biblical laws on a modern democratic nation are.


Democratic? Right. Again point to where the Bible says this is right.

God may not be real, but Christians who won't rest until our entire country has pledged allegiance to their God are.

All I want is for people to see God as He is. And the entire country will not. IT's not going to go down this way. The Bible tells us it's not.


God may not be real, but Christians who couldn't care less about scientific advancement or human progress, but are more than willing to just wait for Armageddon to solve everything are.


Now that's just stupid. For people who believe that and you who think that is what it means to be a Christian.


You ask me why I waste my time and energy being angry at a God I don't believe in. And I repeat, it's the notion of God that angers me. It's the notion of a god that wants every knee to bow and every tongue to confess that he is real and sovereign, while his followers execute suspected witches and known homosexuals, allow their children to die for lack of a blood transfusion, refuse to help stop the spread of a disease by using condoms, attempt to take over a democratic government and replace its secular laws with biblical law.


Who says I agree that is what the Bible tells us to do? Who says that people who are doing those things are Christians. The Bible does not.


You Christians pose a very aggressive threat to the existence of our secular nation. But you can't see why I should waste my time and energy combating such horrific, ignorant nonsense. And you can't see it because your world view doesn't allow you to respect anyone's view but your own. Everyone else is wrong, except Christians, and not even all Christians, just those who believe what you believe, because quite obviously, if they don't agree with you then they must be under the influence of the devil, because you couldn't possibly be wrong about anything. God speaks to you, and his voice has always been crystal clear, and its impossible that the voice you hear might be the devil deceiving you, although we are told he has the power to deceive even the saints. But God would never allow that to happen to you. You are special. He tells you so. And you, in your pride masquerading as humility, are more than willing believe him.


So. You believe the devil exists but God doesn't? Lots of sense that makes. Grant it I know you are not saying that but that is what your Biblical exegesis is like. The Bible says that all of humanity is special not just those who believe. The Bible tells us that we scarcely make it in - no room for boasting or pride."Christian" means something. you can't just pour any meaning into the word you want. It's not just Jesus in it.


You have no sense of history or of the vast waste of human lives. Those believing Christians who were killed by other Christian, century after century, aren't even worthy of a moment's reflection. There's nothing to be learned there.


You say I have no sense of history but you think that everyone who calls themselves a Christian is a Christian. And you think that the Bible does not have a historic and consistent message. That is real deluded.


Actually, there's a hell of a lot to be learned there, but I doubt that you will ever be willing to see it.


I see that the Bible is exactly right about people who think like you.


I'm done with you, Brother.


I'm praying that God is not done with you. You need help.

Bronxboy47 said...

If Marcus ever becomes the minister of his own flock, it will probably be only a matter of time before we hear that this minister who enjoy looking at cartoon images of deliberately sexually provocative, half-naked, overly endowed females, has overstepped the line with one of the sheep in his care. You know how kinky these repressed Christian are.

I can hear him now: But honey, they're only cartoons, it's not like I'm looking at real females and lusting after them. Yeah, right. Typical Christian justification. Sorry, not buying it.

mmcelhaney said...

@Bronxboy47 said


Someone needs to tell Marcus I don't respond to morons.

I'm too busy drooling over the deliberately sexually provocative poses on display at his Favorite Fiction site. These images would be right at home in a comic book version of Playboy magazine.


Doesn't take much does it to get you off? Repressed aren't we? Looks like it.

Gandolf said...

Grace said.."Most secular people I know really don't care one way or the next. It's just something that's not much on their radar screen at all."

Hi again Grace.

Its kind of lots like saying many folks who`s family havent experienced any drownings in their family, dont seem to have advocating for more life guards on their radar screen quite so much at all.

Naturally folks who have experienced the problems ,will be more likely to discuss it.

We dont see so very many atheist advocates of christianity either, seems its just not on their radar sceen quite the same.I dont tend to see atheists or even Islamists standing in a street waving a christian bible around, seems its off their radar screen.

I think what this idea that its only on certain folks sceen trys to suggest and achieve, is suggesting that maybe the problem is simply purely emotional and some folks are maybe just a little unhappy.

I think this idea may be more about a little false pride and born from a faith that maybe just dont feel so comfortable or want to be facing the very possible existence of some very real problems.

I find it a little kinda sad really.Because to me it feels kinda like how i would imagine, it might feel, for rape victim to be hearing someone say, oh but how come the problem of rape is only on the screens of certain folks radar .I dont hear everyone getting so angry about the problem of rape.

And its so correct, many folks dont care less that other folks get raped do they Grace.But do you think that automatically makes it a good thing?.

And its also so very very true what you said ,faith abuse just isnt on the radar screen of many folks in this world . And thats the exact! reason why folks like me had to have our whole lives ruined by abusive faith.

You know what Grace, i dont think its ever gonna help stop any matters of abusive faith, if folks start finding ways of trivializing the problem if they can .Do you think so?.

Im not suggesting this is actually your intention Grace .Im just being totally honest about matters , and trying to point out to you just how easy it has been for faithful folks to keep finding ways to gloss over real problems.

I do this Grace ...Because like i already explained ...There is absolutely nothing you or anyone else can do NOW to change life much for me or my family or very many other folks in this world, who had their "whole lives" turned inside out and upside down by faith abuse.Its not something that can be repaired like a broken leg.

There is only one way to fix it.Start honestly taking it serriously ,and try to find a real way to nip it in the budd before it even happens.

People like me actually "hate" people feeling sorry for us .We dont wanna hear that shit ,"oh im sorry to hear that" time and time again right throughout our whole lives.We even get sick of explaining the frilly church counseling unit aint doing much to help replace our family Grace.

Do you understand what im saying.Im not here to hear somebody feel sorry for me,im here because of a need to explain a real problem.In hope that folks dont keep trying to excuse it and gloss over the problem.In hope that for other kids in future there life dont have the need to be the same as mine.

Beside Grace one reason im not so keen on hearing peoples words of "sorry" etc, is because life has taught me words are a dime-a-dozen and often simply meaningless.Ive learned to much prefer honest action than words.

Gandolf said...

Marcus says to GearHedEd..."You claim that there is no evidence for creation or intelligent design yet you have yet to bring up any of the things they offer as evidence and rebutt them...this is just another assertion that could easily be evidenced if you were right."

Yeah GearHedEd wheres your evidence that invisible Trolls dont exist either too hmmm ??..What about bringing evidence the invisible pink unicorn aint gonna get ya hmmm??...And how can you be sure and prove there aint some invisible magical tea pot circling around Mars hmmm?? .Got the evidence to prove it have ya hmmmm??? ...If you hasnt got evidence GearHedEd im a calling you out!! on you just making more plurry assertions!! ..Damn it

You naughty naughty man !! tut tut

The possible non existence of all these very omnipresent magical things, could easily be proven wrong too, with evidence if it were right, so this is just another naughty "assertion" saying that all these things dont actually all exist.I assert for sure! monsters do live under childrens beds, even the fact that children are ever afraid! of them, proves the very complexity of the very existence of these magical beings ...Now where is your evidence to disprove my assertion that they do exist.Making an "assertion" my "assertion" is wrong, is simply just not good enough. Cough cough-struts around looking oh so scholarly

Now bring on the evidence GearHedEd or you`ll be in very grave trouble with ALL the Gods and Troll and most likely all the under-bed monsters as well

Grace said...

I understand, Gandolf.

I think that none of us want folks feeling sorry. You are wanting people to look at faith abuse seriously, and take action.

You are a good man, Gandolf.

GearHedEd said...

Grasce asks,

"...What do you think of it? (the C. S. Lewis quote above)

I've always thought that Lewis was a hack. And over-reted as a Christian apologiist.

Bronxboy47 said...

Here's further justification for why we fight:

Christian Fascist Are Growing Stronger

The battle for control of this country is in full sway. We need to wake up.

Grace said...

Well, hey, Gear, an honest answer.

Bronx, are you thinking that by persuading people away from Christian faith that this will somehow combat facism?

Most people of faith that I personally know would not want to live in a theocracy either, and fully support the separation of church, and state.

When you were religious, were you inclined toward the dominionists?

I mean no offense in my question, but am concerned to know what has sparked your anger, and has caused such strong feelings, if you're willing to share.

Bronxboy47 said...

Grace said:

Bronx, are you thinking that by persuading people away from Christian faith that this will somehow combat fascism?


Secular fascism? No. The Christian version? Yes. At least, it's to be hoped.

I do find your brand of Christianity less reprehensible than most (although it has enough holes in it to drive a truck through), as long as it doesn't insist upon Christianising our secular, multicultural society; nevertheless, your liberal version of Christianity , as has already been pointed out, still serves as enabler to those practicing a more virulent form of your faith.

And, Grace, please stop focusing on my anger, as if its cause was a genuine enigma. The earth is soaked in the blood of religious disputes. Religion has been used as a political tool to dominate, and where necessary, to exterminate. This has been going on since the birth of religions.

It is my firm belief that the long history of planet-wide wholesale religious slaughters has been responsible for the coarsening of mankind, setting an example and paving the way for the totalitarian genocides of the twentieth century. With such examples before them, why should godless people be expected to behave any better in pursuit of their goals?

Instead of focusing on my anger, please focus on the points I've raised.

GearHedEd said...

Gandolf said,

"Yeah GearHedEd wheres your evidence that invisible Trolls dont exist either too hmmm ??..What about bringing evidence the invisible pink unicorn aint gonna get ya hmmm??...And how can you be sure and prove there aint some invisible magical tea pot circling around Mars hmmm?? .Got the evidence to prove it have ya hmmmm??? ...If you hasnt got evidence GearHedEd im a calling you out!! on you just making more plurry assertions!! ..Damn it

You naughty naughty man !! tut tut!"

Dang it! You weren't supposed to say that in front of Marcus. Now he KNOWS!...

Grace said...

Bronx,

I would argue just the opposite. I have not known many Christian facists in my time, but the couple I did know seemed to me very angry individuals, completely devoid of the love of Christ.

When confronted by an aggressive atheism, they tend to only retreat further into their reprehensible views, and actually use this as justification that religious people, are really being persecuted, and "under secular progressive," attack.

I would agree that mere religion is not the answer, but I think an ethic rooted in the love of God, and caring for our neighbors as ourselves really is.

There is no one who is truly a follower of Jesus Christ who hates anyone.

As the Scripture states in another place,

"If someone says, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar, for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen."

And, as you've pointed out there have been horrific atrocities committed in totally godless societies. Atheism did not help these people care for each other, let alone love their enemies.

Bronxboy47 said...

Grace said:

And, as you've pointed out there have been horrific atrocities committed in totally godless societies. Atheism did not help these people care for each other, let alone love their enemies.

But that's not all I pointed out, Grace. This is what I find so terribly frustrating. You cherry picked that paragraph and completely ignored its most salient feature. Religion in general has desensitized humanity to the horrors of wholesale religious slaughter, eroding over countless centuries our sense of the value of an individual human life . With the example of blood soaked religious precedent right under their noses, is it any wonder that from the French Revolution(which was in large part a rebellion against religion) onward into the twentieth century, revolutionaries and various political strongmen have felt no compunction in carrying out extermination programs of their own?

I can hear Hitler now: The Jews didn't hesitate to wipe out an entire population in order to establish religious hegemony in Canaan, why shouldn't I do the same here in Germany in name of Aryan hegemony?

How can you deny the importance of religious precedent?

Bronxboy47 said...

Grace,
My emotions and my reason rebel at the thought of worshiping any authority figure that commands me to do as he says and not as he does. I didn't accept it from my parents and I certainly won't accept it from some primitive sky God.

John tells us that God is love, and Paul describes love in great detail.

1 Cor 13:4-7 (NIV):
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast (really? What was that long boastful passage in Job all about?), it is not proud (ditto). 5It is not rude (ditto again), it is not self-seeking (now that's possibly the biggest laugh of all. Haven't we been told repeatedly we exist only to glorify God and to conform to his wishes?), it is not easily angered (tell that to the guy God killed instantly when out of a sense of horrified piety he grabbed hold of the ark of the covenant to keep it from hitting the ground), it keeps no record of wrongs (huh? You've got to be joking! I'd say hell is clear evidence of eternal record keeping). 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects (another cruel joke?), always trusts, always hopes (what is there to hope for when you know the end from the beginning?), always perseveres (tell that to the folks God has washed his hands of and consigned to Hell). God appears to have a faulty understanding of the requirements of his own essence.

In the words of the pop song Alright Now: Love? Lord above, now you're tryin' to trick me in love.

GearHedEd said...

Marcus said,

"...I'm not afraid to have an opinion of my own: The Bible is right and anyone who disagrees with the Bible is a liar. That's my opinion."

That's NOT your opinion; that's you hiding behind the skirt of your invisible sky daddy. You haven't got an independent brain cell with which to HAVE an opinion.

And I don't lie.

You said in another thread that there IS evidence of the Hebrews wandering in the Sinai desert for forty years, and for "proof" you linked in to a webpage that showed a few pottery shards scattered on the ground and a map of where these shards were allegedly "found".

Even granting that the location and dates of the shards places them in the right time frame according to the Biblical account, your source neglected to mention that the map data showed shard distributions only in the vicinity of KNOWN TRADE ROUTES from antiquity. This is a viable alternate explanation, and when combined with the FACT that there is no supporting evidence from Egyptian records relating to some 2 million people leaving Egypt en masse, (nor evidence of a huge group of wanderers later arriving in Canaan) you are left with the very real probabilities that

a) the alleged evidence may or may not show what you think it does (inconclusive), and

b) supporting evidence from external sources for the claims points FIRMLY in the other direction, leads to

the conclusion that you see only what you want to see. Confirmation bias.

You say to me "you don't have good arguments or proof".

I don't have time to waste on you (yes, Marcus, you're a waste of everyone's time here), to the extent that I COULD give you all the evidence you keep saying isn't there; but you wouldn't accept it in any case, because your brain is welded shut.

mmcelhaney said...

GesrHedEx, if you think that discussing matters is a waste of time, then stop. Otherwise there is no need to accuse me of not thinking or hiding. If you wanna deny evidence I present fine, but dismissing it out of hand by saying there are alternate explanations is pretty shallow argumentation if you provide no viable alternative. so what if the pottery shards were found along known trade routes? You'd expect Moses and the Israelites to travel along unknown trade routes? I wouldn't. Why would you? I didn't call you a liar (this time) the Bible is. My mind isn't welded shut, but yours is - blinded to the truths that are just staring you in the face. If I'm such a waste of your time then stop responding to me. For someone who doesn't matter I sure make you angry. I'd laugh if it wasn't so pathetic.

GearHedEd said...

You DID see the paragraph about NO CORROBORATING EVIDENCE for other sources?

I look at the WHOLE picture, you look at the Bible.

How is your approach better than mine?

GearHedEd said...

Again, you pass over the meat of the argument, and say stupid things like

"The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it."

How is that NOT having a mind welded shut?

mmcelhaney said...

@GearHedEd

How do you know I only looked at the Bible. None of the evidence I put forth regarding the exodus depends on the Bible at all. It's just a fact that shards of pottery dating from the time that the Exodus took place have been found. You say that there is alternate explanations. You didn't even give a better alternate explanation. Neither did you answer my question. Where is your corroborative evidence? you didn't provide it. I wanna see it. Where is it? You say naturalistic explanations are preferable, but you didn't offer one. Besides that i didn't offer supernatural evidence either. Don't get mad, just provide your evidence and your sources.

GearHedEd said...

Like I said,

I could show you ALL the evidence, but you wouldn't look at it, because it conflicts with your fragile world view.

And if it turned out that something was absolutely proved which shows parts of the Bible to be utterly false, your efforts in having "educated" yourself in the scripture will be exposed as the waste of time that they ARE, and you'd be forced to re-evaluate your beliefs.

I'm open to being convinced that there's something besides what I can see, but NO ONE (including you) has ever given me anything that even remotely resembles a good argument in favor of "belief".

Just the standards like Pascal's Wager (my mother tried that one on me fer crissake!), the threat of Hell in the afterlife which I don't believe in, etc...

All you've got is the Bible, and some personal anecdotes about being aware of the "holy spirit".

You said,

"... if you think that discussing matters is a waste of time, then stop."

No, I didn't say that. What I said is that discussing matters WITH YOU is a waste of time. Others here are generally not so blockheaded.

Except Harvey.

GearHedEd said...

"How do you know I only looked at the Bible. None of the evidence I put forth regarding the exodus depends on the Bible at all. "

Begging the question!

You KNEW the aanswer BEFORE you supplied the "evidence". And you only gave one page, not the volumes others have written that contradict your pet source.

mmcelhaney said...

@GearHedEd

You said:


Again, you pass over the meat of the argument, and say stupid things like

"The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it."

How is that NOT having a mind welded shut?



I'm not saying that. I don't believe I've ever argued that way. I do believe the Bible is true, but if they were evidence that it is wrong I'd have to discard it. I've looked and search and found none. You have provided none. You have managed to show how woefully inadequate your knowledge of the Bible is, but nothing more. No surprise. Your attitude is:

"the Bible is wrong; Anyone who believes it is true is a moron and that settles. There is no God."

Does that make you more evil or dumber than me? No. I'm saved by what Jesus did for me not because of any merit or act of mine. I've been given Grace. But it does show how closed minded you are.

GearHedEd said...

And that's uttely typical of your strategy:

You KNOW what you want the evidence to say, so you find some Christian apologist hack that says things you want to hear out loud and paste them in here as if they're "Evidence".

GearHedEd said...

"You said:


Again, you pass over the meat of the argument, and say stupid things like

"The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it."

How is that NOT having a mind welded shut?



I'm not saying that. I don't believe I've ever argued that way."

-------------------------------

Holy crap, that's the ONLY way you've EVER argued!

mmcelhaney said...

@GearHedEd

How can you accuse me of not putting up volume of sources that disagree with me? Do you know how silly that sounds? There are volumes of sources that agree with me also and contradict you. I'm challenging you. Provide those and let's look at them. For and and against.

GearHedEd said...

That, and the evasiveness that Bronxboy accused you of.

mmcelhaney said...

@GearHedED

Where is your evidence? I've seen tons of evidences both side and i find your side wanting. you are biased against the Bible. How do you know you aren't letting your biases blind you? I'm asking because that is exactly what you are doing. You can't see it.

Further if you think I've been arguing that the Bible is true because I say it is, then your reading comprehension is truly horrible.

GearHedEd said...

This is Loftus's blog.

I read his comment policy, even if YOU didn't.

And you know before I do any of that, that you're not going to read any of it, nor consider the evidence with an open mind.

Similarly, I'm not going to read Aquinas or William Lane Craig, because these are men who have devoted their lives to rationalizing the invisible and unproveable. In other words, considering the amount of time WLC has spent "educating" himself, I'd be shocked if he came out and said,

"You know, I got to thinking, and I discovered this is all bullshit, and here's why..."

He's NEVER going to do that. He has TOO MUCH invested in the myth. But what does he REALLY believe? Does he KNOW that it's bullshit, but keeps on writing his books because he knows there's a huge market out there hungry for his "products"?

YOU don't know if that's true, and HE'S not telling.

GearHedEd said...

Marcus said,

"...Further if you think I've been arguing that the Bible is true because I say it is..."

Not at all.

What I've been saying is that YOU BELIEVE that the Bible is true, therefore all arguments to the contrary are false.

There's a world of difference there, amigo.

GearHedEd said...

And again, you misconstrue the statements others make.

There's nothing wrong with my comprehension.

Grace said...

Bronx,

I understand what you're sharing, but from my perspective the problem runs deeper than toxic religion, but is rooted as much in the reality of human brokenness, and fallenness.

We've become alienated from God, and from each other. We walk this out individually, and culturally in differing ways.

Often times these religious disputes actually reflect even deeper political, and social divides.

I actually saw this first hand in Northern Ireland years ago. I went there to explore working with a peace movement, called Corrymeela.

I expected to see this religious conflict.

But, in reality, a lot of the folks at odds were not even particularly religious. They were culturally Catholic, or culturally Protestant. And, there were all sorts of dividing, inflammatory issues far beyond any spiritual differences.

As to whether these various religious conflicts have helped paved the
way, and set a precedent for the secular atrocities, and dictatorships of the twentieth century, or for the French Revolution, I don't know, Bronx.

I would have to think about this more deeply.

I suppose what it all says to me in a deeper, and more profound sense, to use theological terms, is that we are desperate sinners in need of a Savior.

Hey, I'll be back later to respond to your other comment. It's a beautiful evening, and my husband, and I are going for a motorcycle ride.

GearHedEd said...

The difference between you and I Marcus is this:

If you changed your mind about all this, it would expose your ealier beliefs to be a huge lie. You're STUCK in your theology, for good or ill.

If I was to change my mind, I could shrug and say, "Oops. I was wrong".

GearHedEd said...

I'm not invested in a myth.

GearHedEd said...

So why do YOU bother, Marcus?

You realize that you're not changing anyone's minds in here, right?

So what's the point?

GearHedEd said...

Not only

"If I was to change my mind, I could shrug and say, "Oops. I was wrong"."

but I'd be SAVED as well. What a bargain! How could I NOT desire such riches and rewards as are promised by the Gospels to those that BELIEVE?

I'll tell you.

Because the Bible is unbelievable. I CANNOT believe it, even knowing what it allegedly offers.

GearHedEd said...

And don't misunderstand me here.

When I say CANNOT, I mean I'm mentally unable to wrap my brain around so much magical nonsense, NOT that I choose to disbelieve.

And the more apologetics I hear, the more it sounds like that "Pathological Liar" character from Saturday Night Live:

"Jesus sucked all the sin out of everyone and took it to hell where he dumped it off in the lake of fire....Yeeeaaaah, that's the ticket.".