About one out of every eight adults is an "ex-Christian," a new survey reveals. These include those who left the Protestant or Catholic tradition that they were a part of as a child and who now report being atheist, agnostic or some other faith, according to the Barna Group. Meanwhile, those who switched from a non-Christian faith or non-belief (from their childhood) to Christianity as an adult represent three percent of the American population. Link.
American people are leaving Christianity at 4x's the rate they're joining. ;-) Hat Tip: Ed Babinski.
110 comments:
This piece of news is in the same rag that Randal Rauser posts to. Interesting. He insinuates you have to be a cut above the rest of humanity to be able to perceive the Bible correctly. At this rate, Christianity will one day be comprised wholly of people with superior powers of rationalization. Those of us who left are just not good enough to "get it."
And being morally inferior, we can't resist the temptation to point and laugh at them.
Should this news come as any surprise? Nope!
Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. - 1 John 18-20
@Marcus:
Exactly how long will this "last hour" last? It's 10:20 a.m. PST, guess I've got a lot to clear up before noon!
It has been happening in Europe, Canada, Australia etc for decades...
The "last hour" clock needs a little calibration, I'd say.
Yes, Marcus - "this is the last hour". Wonderful apocalyptic woo - written nearly two thousand years ago, but you guys still cling to that "last hour", by now re-assessed, re-interpreted into some metaphorical insider benefit, just as long as you can continue to cling to the perceived benefits and "special club" that follows from this being the "last hour". A security blanket for the kids in the One True Gang. How special you are.
And becoming more special, at least in the sense of "rare" with each passing year.
Incidentally I think someone needs to do a survey of the 3% who are late converts to see how many are in politics.
Look up governor of Louisiana, ans republican candidate for governor of South Carolina.
What's with all the DM garbage?
Hmmm...noon PST. Well, maybe my watch is off. I'll just give it another minute or so. Dum dee dum...
But clamat, last "hour" doesn't mean an hour by the human clock.
Or doesn't it? The world is 6000 years old. And that does mean years by the human calendar.
OK never mind. If it made sense it wouldn't be called "faith".
And a six "day" creation vs. a "six day" creation vs. "the world was literally created in six 24 hr. days, dangit!" In the Beginning, God said "let there be confusion."
This piece of news is in the same rag that Randal Rauser posts to.
It is a rag, and the commenters are morons - but then, pretty much describes everything they publish.
Guys, this is no joking matter. I think we should take Marcus and the teachings of the church a little more seriously. This is a life and death situation here. Save your selves people. You may only have a few seconds or minutes left. Think not, question not, for in that moment you do, it could be moment you regret ever having a brain.
loftus
add comment moderation to your BS or more people will die with you...
plush safe he think
http://www.christies.com/lotfinderimages/D14781/d1478164x.jpg
http://vimeo.com/13704095
but with recent revelations about James Randi, I think he likes DICKS!
____________________
THE SECOND COMING!
THE END OF ATHEISM
FOLLOW THE WHITE RABBIT...
...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Smwrw4sNCxE
____________________________________________
THE B**BQUAKE - 911
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeblvLoVJCA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpZZ2PPBzP8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvSljPf9on4&feature=related
you are going to pay the price for this….
THE RUBBER DUCKY OF PSEUDOSCIENCE III - JAMES RANDI
http://daddytypes.com/archive/hofman_rubber_duckie.jpg
there is a lot of sh*t to flush!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg2AezJo8aQ
THE HEAD OF THE INFIDEL!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojR-XRt4rrA
Is America burning yet?
Maybe we need some more...
we use the DIVINE against the ESTABLISHMENT... you?
we do better DEMOLITIONS than you, savage...
RENOUNCE YOUR ATHEISM AND JOIN THE SOCIALIST FAITH!
let them know if the MDC continues more people will die...
the WORLD TRADE CENTER PROPHECY - THE DANCE OF DEATH
WORLD TRADE CENTER PROPHECY
FLUSH ATHEISM!
Actually it is a ROYAL FLUSH!!!
Let me show you how ATHEISTS were partially responsible for 911
These ATHEISTS NEED TO BE ON THE TERRORIST WATCH LIST!
You don’t even have SCIENCE on your side…
You’re a perfect example of when PHILOSOPHY becomes an ENEMY OF LIFE...
http://stephenlaw.blogspot.com/2010/06/playing-mystery-card.html
not quite samantha with her *supernatural spit*, eh?
this isn't one of your little WORD GAMES...
blasphemy is a DEATH SENTENCE
you people actually BELIEVE the BS you preach!
GOD 1 - atheists 0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQcNiD0Z3MU
Atheists,
you are ENEMIES OF GOD AND ARE GOING TO BE ANNIHILATED...
Repent and turn to God or be destroyed...
YOU HAVE NO CHOICE...
my interpretation of the STATUE FIRE... it symbolizes the SPIRITUAL DEATH of atheism...
http://www.salon.com/news/2010/06/15/us_lightning_strikes_jesus_statue
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/6/16/1276680110544/The-King-of-Kings-statue--005.jpg
http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2010-06/54332292.jpg
http://friendlyatheist.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/butterjesus-1.jpg
PRINCESS DI IS WEARING A NEW DRESS!
http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/speechesandarticles/a_speech_by_hrh_the_prince_of_wales_titled_islam_and_the_env_252516346.html
______________________________
http://skepticblog.org/2010/04/06/would-i-ever-pray-for-a-miracle/
Shermer, I WANT TO SEE YOU BEG FOR A MIRACLE...
___________________
we do like your music Lady Gaga, but...
The B**BQUAKE - 911
Let me show you the FATE OF TRAITORS...
http://www.loiterink.com/photos/products/182_3424_500x500.jpg
they are incapable of telling the difference between SCIENTIFIC *FACT* AND
RELIGIOUS AND PHILOSOPHICAL *TRUTH*... FATAL ERROR!
they also preach a *VALUE FREE SCIENCE* called *POSITIVISM* that ignores the
inequalities of wealth and power in capitalist civilization...
for a sample taste of PZ Myers' GARBAGE...
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/06/sunday_sacrilege_imagine_no_he.php
HIJACKING IN PROGRESS!!!
http://hawaiiwebgroup.com/maui-design/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/website-hijacking.jpg
HIJACKING IN PROGRESS!!!
how can these HEADLESS IDIOTS BET AGAINST GOD!!!
________________________________________
what happens when you LOSE Pascal's Wager...
http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/pascals-wager.htm
THE BOOBQUAKE - 911!
http://dissidentphilosophy.lifediscussion.net/philosophy-f1/the-boobquake-911-t1310.htm
@ Marcus
Sheesh! The 'last hour'? It's prophetic that you quote from John. And yes I think as you do that the eschaton is coming, but not as you imagine. Rather it is the end of the world as you know it, the inexorable end to the christianities as has been occurring in Canada, Australia and Europe for decades [3g. nursing]; might I add with a far greater improvement as a consequence in law and order, health, social services, consensus governance, equity and social conscience etc etc. The eschatology of the religious on the religious will happen 'in the last hour'.
Cheers
Why is Marcus posting on blogs in his last hour? Doesn't he have a rapture to prepare for or something?
Speaking of leaving the faith(whatever that may be) A Harvard educated classicist named Sarah Ruden (most notable for her rendition of the Aeneid, Yale Uni. Press)Has just published a book on the Apostle Paul. I thought she was going to destroy Paul. However, as I read the book, she seems to think that Paul was one of Western Civilization's greatest revolutionaries. She went from thinking that Paul was an anti-feminine, pro-slavery, anti-homosexual bigot, to thinking that Paul's view of women was revolutionary and liberating, and so on.She is extremely learned in classical thought and provides very convincing evidence. I wanted to argue with her, but it was very difficult. Has anyone read this book? can someone help me debunk Paul, or at least Ruden's book.
Ivan,
Paul was not just misogynistic. He was anitmarriage.
Granted, bilical scholars (obviously not the fundamentalist type) think much of what is written under Paul's name is forgeries. Regardless, that stuff did make it into the canon and we are stuck with it.
I don't need to read the book you mentioned. 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy are all I need.
DM, I suggest you view the video linked elsewhere on this blog entitled "Don't be a dick"
3g nursing,
Yea, that is what I thought, but Ruden is a tough cookie, she knows her shit.I wish I could just throw Paul out of the fucking door and move on.But Sarah Ruden has caused me to doubt, she is also a very learned feminist, so I have to respect her elegance and intellect.I'm just saying that we need someone to debunk this rigorously, instead of rattling off diatribes such as your comment that: "I don't need to read the book you mentioned. 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy are all I need." This sounds like the fucking opposite side of the fundamentalist coin. Read Nietzsche and learn how to respond to weak and groveling christianity by becoming smarter and therefore stronger. Don't sit on your couch and masturbate with your own ignorance. Nietzsche was about destroying christianity from the inside out. He was about the Superman, the anti-christ, amor fati, eternal recurrence, and the revaluing of all values beyond good and evil. He was a giant, a real anti-christ--not a weak minded sniveling atheist who bitch and complain about how they were mistreated by their "love affair" with christianity because they couldn't fuck an imaginary jesus. Get over resentment, as Nietzsche advocated.Resentment ruins atheism.Become a superman.Just read Nietzsche. Sorry for the asperity.Don't take it personal.But come on!!
You know Katy Perry was a fundy growing up, and now she is a sexy beast. How about a post with some maxim or rolling stone pics--hell, maybe you can find a Katy Perry nipple cameo!!!-Talk about liberation from christianity, how good did it feel to have a threesome without feeling guilty! The end of christianity has meant a busy night life for my vagina.Freedom is a great feeling.
I'm not sure what the big deal is. It shouldn't be any surprise that people leave Christianity. It certainly isn't a surprise to Jesus. In His story of the sower and the seed He hints that roughly seventy five percent of those who make a decision to follow Him will sooner or later drop out.
So go. Follow John Loftus and see where it gets you.
Ivan, why do I get the feeling that you are a plant?
Papalinton said...
@ Marcus
Sheesh! The 'last hour'? It's prophetic that you quote from John. And yes I think as you do that the eschaton is coming, but not as you imagine. Rather it is the end of the world as you know it, the inexorable end to the christianities as has been occurring in Canada, Australia and Europe for decades [3g. nursing]; might I add with a far greater improvement as a consequence in law and order, health, social services, consensus governance, equity and social conscience etc etc. The eschatology of the religious on the religious will happen 'in the last hour'.
Cheers"
Hi Papalinton i agree with what you and 3g.nursing have been saying.Like to add its much the same over the ditch here in NZ.
And while on the subject of talking about dooms day prophesy.From past experience with my own fundy Christian family, i know they constantly lived with the idea of a type of "new earth" being created in future, at the time of the return of Jesus and God.
Im a little ashamed to say i cant help feeling this tended to make them a little more uncaring and wasteful of earths resourses.Their opinion was that man who worried about this was controlled by the devil,and only holding onto evil natural thought.And was maybe even going against what to them was considdered all part of Gods divine plan in action.To them part of Gods plan was to see this world fall apart.
In any real honesty they are against any ideas of conservation etc, and dont considder planning for the future of our children on this earth, as being anything worthy or so very worthwhile.
What im suggesting is i dont think my family were the only people of "fundy" type faith groups with this type of thinking.And where ever land was colonized, the faithful arrived and brought much of this type of thinking along with them which then filtered out into society at large also.They mouthed words about money being the root of evil etc,yet with their actions they often also sanctioned! the right! of our societies to plunder and abuse at free will to help gain mega money!.
If anything helped bring some real possibility of some sort of dooms day closer ,it was these type people that often with their "words" warned folks about it.
Thankfully! many more modern thoughtful liberal type Christian these days, are also helping in bringing back some more "balance".So i feel it only fair to be sure to be verbally thankful here for that also.
I fully understand humans do need to earn a living.But in my opinion that dont mean we should need to abuse it.Im for finding a balance if its possible.Or at least try to.
If we are going to simply throw all the dollys out of the pram, and accept future doom and gloom and hopelessness .Then why would we keep having more children.Its the children that need to make do with whatevers left after we adults pass on.
My opinion.
@articulett
I'm ready for the rapture. Are you?
@Ivan Karamazov
I agree with Ruden about who Paul was. He was not Anti-Woman or anti-Marriage.
Read all of 1 Cor 7; 1 Corinthian is one of the eight letters that most scholars will grant was written by Paul.
Also remember Galatians 3:26-29
3g nursing says those things because at the end of the day that's the on;y argument atheists can use. As for Nietzsche, he went insane so I wouldn't advocate following his example either.
Marcus, you are not raptured yet?
I am suprised. It has been a full day since "the last hour".
Gary North, the prominent Christian Reconstructionist, has written about how christian end times beliefs appeal strongly to people with "lower class" outlooks, namely, losers who lack the intelligence and self-discipline to plan for their own futures and therefore perpetuate their failures in life:
Left Behind Culturally
I suspect the Prosperity Gospel appeals to the same demographic, namely, people who engage in magical thinking about becoming successful without doing anything real to make that outcome happen.
Marcus,
From 1 Corinthians 7:
29What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; 30those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; 31those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.
By the phrase "the time is short" did Paul mean "but no shorter than, say, 2000 years or so?"
Sounds like Paul was insane (he was imagining things)--I wouldn't trust him, either.
What is interesting is that Christians see this trend too... their not blind... They know people are starting to notice the holes in Christian Dogma... Barna even wrote an article on this which I posted on my blog recently
Interesting that the reason given for the 3% of people turning to Christianity was because of personal and emotional needs...not facts or truth.
People are starting to see the Bible and Christianity for what it is... myth.
@3g.nusing
Be glad the rapture hasn't happened yet. That means you have some time to get it right before it's too late.
@Mark Plus
I happened to agree with you that the "Prosperity Gospel" is bad news. It should be avoided. Paul agreed with you.
"For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat." 2 Thessalonians 3:10
Paul kept a day job making tents if he was not doing ministry, traveling, or in jail he was earning a living.
@Jim
Paul never claimed that he knew exactly when Jesus would return. He just echoed Jesus that we need to be ready. Why would you expect that "time is short" to mean something Paul did not say. Recall what Peter said: A day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day to the Lord. By that reckoning it has only been almost two days. This thing is on God's time table not yours or mine. Jesus said no man knows the day or hour. Quite frankly I wouldn't be trying to rush God if I were you.
8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:8-9
Marcus,
According to millions of Shiite Muslims, the hidden imam will be back with us any day now, after over 1000 years of occultation. But you can be happy it hasn't happened yet, it means you still have time to convert.
RAmen
(Oooh silly me. They follow the wrong religion, you follow the right one. How could I forget.)
@3g.nursing
(Oooh silly me. They follow the wrong religion, you follow the right one. How could I forget.)
Exactly
That's precisely how they think about your religion, Marcus.
Marcus,
Paul never claimed that he knew exactly when Jesus would return.
Ah, the standard "Get Out of Jail Free" card by apologists.
And, of course, it's B.S. because he also tells people: "From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none;" among other things.
I guess Paul meant for the next several thousand years husbands should live as if they have no wives?
In 20,000 years when the rapture still hasn't happened, should husbands live as if they have no wives?
Jim...you are real good at ignoring context. Bravo.
"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."
Is god on acid or something? He seems to have a disturbingly distorted sense of time.
I am not sure I'd trust such a person with anything. Least of all my eternal soul.
(Alternatively of course, Paul or whoever wrote that was trying to give himself wiggle room, in case none of what he said ever happened. But how dare I think heretic thoughts).
Marcus,
He's not out of context, you are in believing in a wish. Get over it and come out of the closet will you?
What you fail to realize Marcus is that you were an atheist to all religions at one point, until your parents or friends coaxed you into believing in their fairy tale. NOW you're just an atheist when it comes to all the other gods we know about today, excepting your religion of choice's god.
In a world still filled with so much mystery, WHY do you think it is that humans believe with absolute certainty that they have answered the question of the origin of all things?
Why is it that 2000+ year old myths still hold sway over your mind?
Contemplation of ones mortality can addle even the clearest of thinkers. It's a bit like religion in that way... In FACT, it IS religion, and by that I mean that the fear of death gives a LOT of oomph to the god hypothesis.
As Stephen J Gould said in his book "An Urchin in the Storm"
"Ever since we learned of our impending mortality, an unfortunate consequence of evolving a larger brain, we have done our best to mitigate it's doleful message. The greatest works in art, music, philosophy and religion exist either to bewail our mortality, or to argue for the existence of our spiritual continuity. As the lyrics of Bach's Jesu Meine Fruede insist, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the spirit..."
@3G.nursing
God created time...why would he be subjected to it or limited in. Omnipresence just doesn't mean that God is present everywhere simultaneously it means he is preseent every when. We are not. Just because you are so limited and not eternal does not mean that God shares that limitation.
Les,
Another great composer, Randy Newman, put it this way in his “Faust”:
[God is singing the praises of faith and the ultimate reward for “getting on the glory train,” and the Devil interjects:]
In all my life
I don’t believe I’ve ever heard such bullshit
Even from you
A master of bullshit
You know it
I know it
It’s bullshit
Bullshit
All of the faith and prayer in the world
All of your dumb show and circuses
You know it’s a lie
It’ll always be a lie
The invention of an animal
Who knows he’s going to die
Some fools in the desert
With nothing else to do
So scared of the dark
They didn’t know if they were coming or going
So they invented me
And they invented you
And other fools will keep it all going
And growing
Everybody
We’re a figment of their imagination
A beautiful dream, it is true
A figment of their imagination
Me and you
And you know it
Me and you
God created time...why would he be subjected to it or limited in.
Have you ever had a conversation with a Trekkie who's absolutely convinced the science in the show is real...
That's what this is like.
Riiight. Now I get it Marcus.
So god created time. As a result, he has some
difficulty keeping track of it (like can't tell the difference between an hour and a thousand years). And that is why things that were supposed to have happened two thousand years ago still haven't (?). You know, if I can't tell a chair apart from a table, saying I build furniture really isn't a defense.
Best of all, if I see a flaw in that reasoning, it is because...why, because I am so limited!
Most amazing of all, you see no sacrilege at all in that verse.
The scribe was trying to hide his own incompetence. And he did so by calling god himself incompetent! And you explain it all away so nicely.
Marcus,
The "context" problem lies with the apologist on this one.
God isn't saying "the time is short."
Paul is saying "the time is short"
A human talking to another set of humans using the term "time is short" can have only one meaning--and it ain't "perhaps thousands of years."
Keep trying . . . and failing . . .
Marcus, you do realize that there are plenty of your fellow evangelical Christians who would agree with us that when the New Testament said time is short, it actually means the time is short. They also take the words in the gospel attributed to Jesus about "This Generation" and "you will not taste death until you see the kingdom" as meaning exactly what it said. Now, where we atheists, agnostics etc. would depart from these Christians is that they are preterists and believe most of or all of bible prophecy concerning eschatology was fulfilled in 70 AD in the destruction of Jerusalem. Now, I have many serious doubts about preterism, but if I were you, I would better hope that this preterism system of interpretation is right, because if it isn't, then that is strong evidence that Christianity truly is false. Let me repeat. You better hope preterism is true because if it isn't, that is proof that what you believe isn't true.
And the guy, Gary North, who Mark provided an article, is a preterist and pretty smart. Although I no longer agree with his religious beliefs, I really respect him as an economist and a libertarian. I'm not a big fan of his Christian reconstructionism, though.
Dear Dan
Do you know what time is?
@3g.nursing
Nope you don't get it. That is why you thinik there is a flaw. The point is we don't know when the end is coming. God has not told us. Peter's whole argument about the 1000 years is to asnwere people like you who think that because Jesus' return has not happened yet that it weon't ever happen.
@Jim...no the problem is context. Did Paul at any time say that he wasd going to live to see Jesus'return? We know he didn't because he consistently talked of leaving fellow believers behind. He had a perspective of readiness and did not live in such a way where he did not plan or think of tomorrow. He was ready for what ever God wanted to do. The failure is in your understanding not in the Bible. Paul fully expected to be around until either Jesus returned or he died because the Jews and/or Romans killed him or until old age killed him.
Form an eternal perspective time is short we are here for a miniscule of time. Think odf the context. It's not just in terms of the end of time, but your attitude towards life.
@ Mike...I don't dispute at all that time is short. It's been the "last days" for the pasts 2000 years. Peter answered this questions. It's done. God is giving you a chance to come to him before it's too late. You had better get busy because time is indeed short. I do tend to take a preterist view to most of apocalyptic prophecies of the New Testament. I'm just arguing that you can't prove that the first century christians thought they knew when Jesus was returning. Just as we should do today, they lived their lives as thought Jesus was going to return in their lifetime. You are going to have to do better than this to prove that they believed and taught that Jesus was going to emphatically return then. They didn't know any more than we know. It's unwarranted and dishonest. You won't find a preterist who would agree that Jesus should have or did return during the first century or yet. You sill have a chance. Don't miss it.
Dear Dan, Do you know what time is?
lol... I imagine it's Marcus Time... at least in your own mind.
People, why are you still repsonding to him? I didn't understand it before, but now that we know he's Rapture Ready - do you really think you'll get anywhere? Rapturists are the most deluded of fundies. They are like the Fort Knox of the evangelical world; there is no breaking through the walls.
These people have been vaccinated against reason.
Marcus, you are contradicting yourself, right?
"The point is we don't know when the end is coming. God has not told us."
But didn't you say this yesterday:
"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."
So this the last hour, but we don't really know, because to god an hour is like a thousand years?
Ok good, so the second coming will be in the next millenium. We know that because some people are leaving the faith-today.
"I believe because it is absurd"-attributed to church father tertullian.
Actually, cipher, I have my reaon.
Nothing is more entertaining than chatting with someone who has no clue he is a caricature of himself.
But you validate him. You allow him to think he's "ministering" to you.
For my fellow Atheist and Agnostics on this board, we all have to realize that we are not going to best Marcus at this debate because he will give his apologist viewpoint regarding his belief. As deluded as he is in believing that Jesus is a real person, we cannot waste our time on someone who is not open minded. At every step of the way, he will continue to have an answer for every single person who doubt's his belief. I see no reason why people should continue to respond to him.
Dooh... Marcus sorry buddy Your evangelistic enthusiasm doesn't seem to be received well on this blog...
Perhaps if you held a sign "The End is Near" on a street corner you might have better results.
One of my favorite cartoons... shows a guy in a robe walking holding a sign that says "The End is Near" and another guy in robe walks by with a sign that say "The End is Far" and the end is near guy is thinking to himself "Wacko"...
@brosho7
For my fellow Atheist and Agnostics on this board, we all have to realize that we are not going to best Marcus at this debate because he will give his apologist viewpoint regarding his belief. As deluded as he is in believing that Jesus is a real person, we cannot waste our time on someone who is not open minded. At every step of the way, he will continue to have an answer for every single person who doubt's his belief. I see no reason why people should continue to respond to him.
I'm not close-minded at all. It's interesting that you seem to think open-minded = agreeing with you.
@cypher
I find it extremely interesting seeing how completely oblivious to you own biases and presuppositions you truly are. I'm not deluded. i know you are not listening. you made up your minds already. But I know God can change minds. Even minds as obtuse and closed as yours. Jesus specializes in changing those.
@3g.nursing
"The point is we don't know when the end is coming. God has not told us."
But didn't you say this yesterday:
"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."
So this the last hour, but we don't really know, because to god an hour is like a thousand years?
Ok good, so the second coming will be in the next millenium. We know that because some people are leaving the faith-today.
"I believe because it is absurd"-attributed to church father tertullian.
Um no. Read the text. a ay is like a thousand years and a thousand yes is like a day. Where does it say that God does not know the difference. The text is pointing out how God is not on the same timetable as us. He does not have that limitation. That is what it mean to be "eternal". It doesn't make sense to you because you think God perceives and interact with time like we do. That is why you are wrong.
1,I'm ready for the rapture. Are you?
2,Be glad the rapture hasn't happened yet. That means you have some time to get it right before it's too late.
3,Quite frankly I wouldn't be trying to rush God if I were you.
4,Dear Dan
Do you know what time is?
5.You sill have a chance. Don't miss it.
Threats , Threats , Threats and more and more threats.
Christian faith could just as easy be Nazism , Stalinism , Maoism or any other type of nasty abusive dictatorship
These type of threats above could have come from someone like -> Kim Jung-il or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or Saddam Hussein or Mullah Mohammed Omar .
I dont know why some people like this , really think human should agree to bow down to these type of ignorant lowly, sad arse, gutless bully tactics.
Myself, i would far rather perish than ever agree to join them.
The extremity of delusion shows through strongly, when all these dictatorships start trying to use their threats to frighten and intimidate.
We should all pity them.
They are like cave men, stuck fast back in ancient times of barbarians.
Its sad these type peoples charisma devoted brains, simply just cant even start to grasp the fact that many modern humans have evolved away from this type of nasty ancient ignorance .Cant grasp that people see right through it ! ,and now only see it for what it honestly is -> Bullcrap.
Cipher.."These people have been vaccinated against reason."
So very very true Cipher
Gandalf, you sound paranoid. I never made a single threat. Just saying what will happen. A threat has an "or else" clause. What "or else" clause did I use? going to hell? Okay, but in order to be a threat then you must really think that there is a hell. If you do not think that there is a hell and those who set themselves against God are not going there, then why are you offended or take it as a threat? Simple. You know the bible is true.
Simple. You know the bible is true.
Yes, of course. In our hearts we know you're right. The great fundie defense mechanism.
Marcus, the difference between what you don't understand about the human mind and the way it works, and what you think you understand, is staggering.
The Bararic Bully Threats of Christianity have become like Ashes in their Mouths.
Marcus,
Every year that Jesus delays his return results in some 50 million people (and rising year on year) toddling off for an infinity of suffering - according to evangelical fundamentalism.
So why doesn't the goon get a move on to limit this God-imposed torture?
I can't think of an apologetic for the problem. What's yours?
Oh! Oh! I know the answer to that one!
The people who are dying and going to hell would never accept him, anyway. He's tarrying for the sake of the "elect", to give them the time they need to come to him. He's reaping as large a harvest as he can, before the gates of mercy slam shut forever! Dun-dun-DUNNN!
Either that, or he overslept.
I have such shocking spelling.Im very thankful atheists are pretty forgiving types.
My previous comment should have read.
The Barbaric Bully Threats of Christianity have become like Ashes in their Mouths.
Marcus,
One last question:
If you're married, do you follow the teachings of Paul and live "as if you have no wife?"
If you're not married, do you plan to follow the teachings of Paul and live "as if you have no wife" after you have a wife?
Or do you plan on living rationally by ignoring the teachings of Paul and living as if you have a wife when you actually have a wife?
Inquiring minds . . .
Jim,
I doubt you'll get an intellectually honest answer but that being said...
Good question.
I'm an inquiring mind and I want to know. One thing I DO know is that any tough questions you put forward to Marcus will make him squirm though... Until he pats himself on the head after finding a verse in the bible to back him up.
The bible/christianity/religion is like a multiheaded hydra of mythological lore that as you're cutting off the last head of the beast, you look back at the first only to find that it has grown its head back and is ready for more.
@Marcus,
I feel so sad for you. Delusion has nothing to do with the level of intelligence. Today, I know people personally who are working towards their PhD that are more deluded than you. So I am not addressing your intelligence at all.
I really (perhaps naively) wish I could snap my fingers and cause you wake up from your coma... the coma of Christianity. In this one area of your life (probably the only area) you are completely deluded (like I was for 25 years).
One day you will wake up. It may be 5-10 years from now. But you probably will. You see, you are under tremendous peer pressure. Most of us think of peer pressure as being in high school and pressured to smoke or cut class or like/dislike certain people. Yet this is not the worst kind.
The worst kind of peer pressure (at least in America) is religion... We live in a very, very superstitious period of humanity. We actually believe that there are invisible creatures that walk around and control this world. If you were to denounce this invisible and imaginary world you would be persecuted by the very people today that say they "love you".
Your wife, children, and other deluded people will scorn you. By waking up you would be despised by all you believe are close to you. Because of this... you have a dis-incentive for leaving your brand of Santa worship.
@Jim and Les
I am married. And you know your reading comprehension skills are real poor. Is that really what you think that is what Paul was communication. You mean the same man who wrote Ephesians 5 about how a man should love his wife as Christ loves the church also taught that a husband should live as if he doesn't have a wife. You must think that Paul is as schizophrenic as you are. I'm squirming all right - laughing at your exegetical skills.
What is the context of 1st Corinthians 7? Did you happen to read the verses after that one?
"29What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; 30those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; 31those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.
32I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— 34and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. 35I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord. " verses 29-35
What is he saying? MArriage puts a strain on you but it's not a sin to get married. He said let everyone retain the station in life that God gives you. That station could change. Some people are purposed to get married and some aren't. Neither one is more godly than the other. This is the point that Paul is making and you missed it,
@Dude, I'm free
Romans 8:1-4 says
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
Without Jesus you are not free. IF you had ever been free you would know what difference is. IF you feel only conviction and guilt because of what heard in Church and for what you did in life, you need to go back and start over. You were doing it all wrong.
It's funny how christians say God spoke to people in a prescientific way in Genesis because they wouldn't have understood, yet this same God expects these same people to understand his timing, and signs of his soon coming. How does this make any sense? Clearly he is not clear for people of our generation, so how much more unclear was he to them, especially since it's pretty "clear" they were expecting it in their generation. A day is like a thousand years and blah blah blah. What the hell can this mean exactly? How vague and conveniently an even number is this, confusing the poor people. This will only make sense if it comes from the nonsense of man.
Isn't it also so convenient that even "Lord" Jesus himself didn't know the time of his return? That's a little suspect to me. Is it possible that Jesus wants to return now but God hasn't given him the go ahead? Imagine the drama in heaven.
Marcus, if you can't see that you're wrong here as everyone is trying to show, then you are truly deluded. And Trae, if you are lurking, I hope you don't agree with Marcus, as that would be enough to prove your delusion to me.
Oh, I'm sorry! Am I being a "Dick"?
I wonder if Phil Plait was talking about a small "Dick" or a big "Dick". Hmm...
Andre
You know what they say:
Big man, big dick
Small man, all dick
Soorrryy! Am I being a dick?
Cheers
@Ignerant Phool
You have truly lived up to your username
No where does the Bible attempt to tells us when Jesus will return
And if you think that Jesus and the Father could disagree or argue then you obviously don't understand the Trinity.
Without Jesus you are not free. IF you had ever been free you would know what difference is. IF you feel only conviction and guilt because of what heard in Church and for what you did in life, you need to go back and start over. You were doing it all wrong.
I love how the idea that someone could actually wake up to the delusion of Christianity just boggles the mind of the believer.
"How could they believe and then stop believing, that doesn't make sense... I can't acknowledge that perhaps they did at one point believe and they now see it as a delusion and myth... because that would mean that I'm... that I'm... ughhhhh Delusional."
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1st Corinthians 1:18
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." - John 8:24
Marcus,
Trust in the lord your god with all your heart, and lean NOT on your own understanding. - proverbs 3:5
The bible is full of verses like these which the church beats your head with when you think for yourself.
I know, you feel you're being a good Christian and all that jazz. By identifying with Christianity you validate your own kindness and empathy for your fellow man.
That's kind of the point of religion isn't it? To codify good behavior and claim that your god is the source of all goodness... But isn't he also the source of all badness as well?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Epicurus
Marcus, you're dodging the question. The problem is that Jesus, according to the gospels, made specific predictions of his return, when he said "this generation will not pass away...." and "you will not taste death until you see the kingdom." Do you believe this was fulfilled in 70 AD?
Also, why do you keep coming back here? Shouldn't you dismiss us as swine that shouldn't have pearls casted before them? Why waste your time on us?
@Mike I'm not a strict preterist. I don't think all of Matthew 24 was fulfilled in 70 AD. Part of it was. The Greek term in "generation" as in "this generation shall not pass away" can also mean "race". So Jesus could have meant "this race shall not pass away."
No dodge. Jesus was not saying that his second coming would happen in the life times of those who were listening. He was talking about the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD.
I keep discussing these issues because Jesus loves you all and I can't let you go to hell thinking that you have good reasons for what you think. If after you hear the truth of what the Bible is saying and you still reject it...that's on you. IT's not about me. It comes down to you and God. What are you going to do?
Dude, I'm Free said,
"@Marcus,
I feel so sad for you. Delusion has nothing to do with the level of intelligence. Today, I know people personally who are working towards their PhD that are more deluded than you. So I am not addressing your intelligence at all."
If you won't, I will...
Marcus is a friggin' idiot.
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1st Corinthians 1:18
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." - John 8:24"
There you go, quoting the Bible to prove the Bible again, Marcus.
Not good enough!
@GearHedEd
I didn't quote the Bible to prove the Bible. What I did was show that what it says deals with the comments that have gone forth. The fact that you guys can't understand what the Bible is no surprise.
Try to keep up, Ed. You can deny that what the Bible says is true all you want. You can't deny that it say what I have said it says. I don't need to prove the Bible. Your very attitude and responses prove t for me. Thanks.
Oh and by the way, the Bible also says that Jesus loves you.
Marcus -- When the thing you call god speaks to me directly, instead of poorly through you, I'll listen.
Greg, fair enough. Open the Bible and read it.
@marcus
...fair enough. Open the Bible and read it.
Think...
Open the 'Book of Mormon' and read it.
Open the 'Quran' and read it.
Open the 'Sutra' and read it.
Open the 'BLANK' and read it.
You're stuck Marcus... you're Bible quotes will not help you.
You seem to have totally forgotten the original post... people are LEAVING Christianity... not looking to join.
But don't worry... the Bible says people wouldn't listen to Noah either and the Bible is also clear that God kills people who don't listen to his messengers, so we know that you believe we're on your God's hit list... fair enough?
2 Marcus
".... fair enough. Open the Bible and read it."
Papalinton
Marcus, Marcus, Marcus. Sheesh. Which of the 60 odd versions, not translations, but versions of the bible of the christianities should I chose? Which is the one and true version according to your particular stripe of judeo-christian mythology.
Better still, ..."fair enough. Open the God Delusion and read it.
Cheers
Hi Gandolf
You say,..."If we are going to simply throw all the dollys out of the pram, and accept future doom and gloom and hopelessness ...."
Papalinton
Would you say the religiose are the rational ones?
All this mental mush they bleat on about emanates from the despair of having to ritually prostrate and debase yourself before this totally undeserving idiot of a spectral numen every Sunday, declaring yourself as unworthy, born in sin and can only reach salvation through Mr Narcissus himself. That smells so much of sociopathy as to beggar disbelief. How can one belittle oneself in such a manner and not suffer untold psychological and emotional damage? And then to turn around [suffering from Stockholm syndrome] and to eat the flesh and drink the blood of this being in a cannibalistic ritual that stems from bronze/iron age primitives.
Tell me, who are the enlightened ones again?
Cheers
Marcus, you're argument that generation=race is old and tired. Even many Christians, including Gary DeMar, know that it is very unlikely tat generation could equal race in that context. I, myself, used that argument when I was a Christian, and it's complete B.S.
All you do here is quote Bible verses to validate your point. And according to you, how do we know the Bible is true? Well, because the Bible says it is!
Give me a break! You seem childishly insistent on having the last word in every debate here, so feel free to, because I'm done debating with you. You obviously can't be reasoned with. Talking to you is as rewarding as talking to wall.
Oops! Sorry about the typo! I wrote you're. I meant Your.
Marcus -- I've read it, sang it, studied it, acted in skits based on it, stayed up for midnight mass to light candles to it, I've even kissed it.
I think I'd been too harsh above, when I said you represented the word of god poorly. The material you're working from is incomplete and sketchy at best.
It looks and reads remarkably like a book, more specifically an anthology that doesn't hang together that well. I mean, some parts are quite lovely, while other parts are problematic and stomach turning. I simply don't see any thing in that book that is coherently described to the point of being worthy of worship, at least to me. God is a poorly sketched blank that hasn't been filled in any more since AD 325.
@Greg
How dare you say the bible is confusing. Now Marcus will have to come back to tell you that his God is not the author of confusion. He will quote book, chapter, and verse the clearly states the God is not the author of confusion and so there's that argument lost my friend.
Surely I jest.
Emory and Greg
I concede that the Bible is indeed confusing...to both of you! Other people don't agree with you Greg's thoughts on how confusing the Bible is. Maybe you just need to study harder.
..Maybe you just need to study harder.
HaHa... he's still here..
Marcus, and your Brother Benny Hinn says if you prayed for healing and didn't get it.. then you just didn't have enough faith.
You're arguments are empty...it's all in your head.
Or as the great Forest Gump said... Stupid is as stupid does.
Oh I just LOVE that comment. "You need to study harder."
I'm not clear on this yet, Marcus. Are you a Christian, cHristian, chRistian, chrIstian, chriStian, chrisTian, christIan, christiAn, or christiaN? If you don't get what I'm asking then obviously you just haven't thought about it hard enough.
I don't find the bible all that confusing. Where I think the text is lacking is a lot of it is not cognitively meaningful. There are concepts that don't refer to anything outside of the book itself, and theology goes one further and accretes all sorts of cultural gibberish and more self-referential ideas on top of the original gibberish.
Theology is full of sentences that look like they are representing an idea, but the idea is incoherent and so cannot be entertained in thought, which leads to more damn theology, in an attempt to ground the original meaningless assertion in something like cognitive useful language. And after that it's turtles all the way down.
I disagree with Benny Hinn, Dan. If you pray for healing and it does not happen, then God just said "No."
Marcus said: [F]air enough. Open the Bible and read it.
Papalinton said: Which of the 60 odd versions, not translations, but versions of the bible of the christianities should I chose? Which is the one and true version according to your particular stripe of judeo-christian mythology?
Papalinton QFT, QED, FTW.
Give us your textual assumptions, Marcus, and we'll tell you where you spend your Sundays.
Greg, I have no problem in telling you where I am Sunday Mornings. Wanna come by and experience the power of God? You are welcomed. Just let me know.
What do you mean by god, Marcus? And can you experience the power of what you call god, say, while you're doing to dishes, or does it work better on sunday morning surrounded by an intensifying and focusing ritual?
Greg
The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And Yes, you can experience his power anywhere. And since you have not experienced it maybe you need to go church.
An interesting experiment would be for a believing, soul-winning church attending person to remove themselves for a year from their Xtian support network. No churching, no exegesis or instruction, no Mighty Clouds of Joy or Benedictine Monk cds, no hanging out with other Xtians in fellowship, no ritual, no social support of their beliefs.
Just a pilgrim and their bible. Be curious to see how their belief would change when separated from the social network.
So, Gery...you mean disobey God, rightt? Yup, i know how that will turn out.
"The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."
I don't know those dudes so that doesn't help me. What do you mean by the word "god"? Peel away your cultural assumptions. What does the word refer to?
How would you disobeying god?
How would you disobeying god?
doooh... you walked into that one Greg.. now he's gonna quote the bible to you again... Heb 10:25
A better "test" would be for Marcus to plug himself into an opposing faith system for a year with no contact from their previous sect.
Dan --
Well, I'd be interested in seeing if he could do it with out quoting scripture.
"A better "test" would be for Marcus to plug himself into an opposing faith system for a year with no contact from their previous sect."
Like the fella who condescended into the Amazon to help the savages and who came out an unbeliever?
Greg and Dan. Again it would be disobedience to God.
What would be, Marcus? And what is "god"?
Like the fella who condescended into the Amazon to help the savages and who came out an unbeliever?
Ahhh... YES.. Don't Sleep there are snakes- Daniel Everett... Awesome Story!
Papalinton said.." Would you say the religiose are the rational ones?
All this mental mush they bleat on about emanates from the despair of having to ritually prostrate and debase yourself before this totally undeserving idiot of a spectral numen every Sunday, declaring yourself as unworthy, born in sin and can only reach salvation through Mr Narcissus himself. That smells so much of sociopathy as to beggar disbelief. How can one belittle oneself in such a manner and not suffer untold psychological and emotional damage? And then to turn around [suffering from Stockholm syndrome] and to eat the flesh and drink the blood of this being in a cannibalistic ritual that stems from bronze/iron age primitives.
Tell me, who are the enlightened ones again?
Cheers "
Hi Papalinton.
No i wouldnt say so .They are not at all rational ! and specially not the fundies ones .At least some of the more liberal ones have finally woken up to much within their faith being myth.Admittedly one then wonders why they even bother to carry on.But for many id say the habit of faith has become lots like a Cuddly Rug ,and after being with it so long, its just a far to scary! and frightening thought to even "think" of completely losing it.
I hear what you are saying Papalinton, and agree much about its not very enlightened when we think that its already the year 2010 .We should be moving faster.But its a bit like curing heroin addicts,with prolonged use, a "physical dependency" takes control of the body.Despite the negative consequences, faith users feel unable to break out of the prison caused by faith abuse.And so use of liberal faith is like a way of slowly weaning many folks off it.
Even thinking of taking the first step to try not to keep thinking with circular faith thought, can obviously be a very frightening thought for some fundy folk, like our friend Marcus so aptly ! displays.Fearful of ancient mythcal stories of suddenly being consumed by hellfire should he even dare look sideways.With eyes glazed and ears plugged in faith ,he stares straight ahead and stumbles ever forward! off into the mire.Collecting gluggy mud on his feet as he goes.
Where as many more liberal faithful have started to at least try to be willing to learn to use some logic and common sense.So i feel i need to be a little thankful for that.I think you would understand, give a little credit where some credits due.Often goes a long way to helping make a person feel a little stronger and more able to change further and succeed.
Papalinton always do enjoy reading what you write, and its great having you around helping us try fast forward some change of thought surrounding these matters of faith.
Cheers
Hi Greg
You say,...."God is a poorly sketched blank that hasn't been filled in any more since AD 325."
I concur with this. Indeed the christianities as we know it does not have the experience of 1700 years of development. Rather it has 1 year's experience 1700 times over.
Sheesh! How does one fathom their type of logic?
Cheers
@ Marcus
"I disagree with Benny Hinn, Dan. If you pray for healing and it does not happen, then God just said "No."
I pray and pray to a half-empty milk bottle and it also said "No".
Cheers
Marcus, here is some advice for you.
If someone says to him, an hour and a thousand years are the same, the person has a very serious mental problem.
If then on top of that he says he made time itself, his condition is even more serious than initially thought.
And so is anyone's condition who believes this.
@Marcus,
Quoting your imaginary friends does not impress me. You essentially believe in a second rate Santa Clause or Tooth Fairy.
Have you ever wondered why the christian bible commanded people to think like a little child? Only infants and children can believe such nonsense.
Again, I do not attempt to evaluate your level of intelligence, as it has nothing to do with you hosting a virus.
As a comparison, consider the smartest person you know or read about developing Parkinsons disease. No-one would ever think that their level of intelligence had anything to to with the disease.
Your physical brain controls everything about you. Your emotions, feeling, desires, likes, dislikes, how you vote, etc. Please... for your own sake, wake up! There are no invisible goblins. No invisible and imaginary ghosts. What you see is what you get. Your only life is here and now. You directly harm other human beings by your ranting about invisible and imaginary creatures!
You now, like I for 25 years, wasted my life believing in Santa Claus. Wake up, Marcus!
You, Marcus, appear to me as some drunk you beats his loved ones and think it's their fault.
Wake the f$ck up!!!
Marcus. You say that a day to God is like 1000 years.
Isn't it true that God says no such thing anywhere in the bible?
Isn't it true that the quote from peter comes from a mis-interpretation of Psalms 90:4?
That verse reads...
Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night.
This in no way means that a day to God is 1000 years.
A watch in the night is a 3 hour period so why don't christians say that a day to God is 3 hrs?
I have to call bullshit on ya my dude...
Marcus said,
"...Oh and by the way, the Bible also says that Jesus loves you."
Jesus died 2000 years ago, if he even existed in the first place.
Not divine.
Not resurrected.
Not in an imaginary heaven.
Just dead.
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