Does modern cosmology supply the materials that can fill gaps in the traditional arguments for the existence of God?

by Jonathan Pearce, enjoy:
In view of the belief that there has been a shift in the landscape of modern philosophy, with regards to the respectful position now adopted by theists, it is important to reassess this landscape at regular intervals. This is not particularly due to new philosophies being developed ex nihilo, but more in light of the nature of modern physics, and the constant change involved in the discipline. The assumptions that underlie most premises in cosmological arguments are often open to debate, and they depend, in no small part, on present physical and cosmological understanding. Since these are shifting sands of understanding, then philosophers must be cautious when making truly assertive and dogmatic claims. Though there are very good arguments indeed for remaining agnostic on many theories (to adopt a truly Pyrrhoian[1] sceptical approach), there is still an attractive quality about holding a definite position, whether as part of a cumulative case, or in isolation, in order to inform a worldview. That being said, all too often, worldviews inform people’s interpretation of evidence, rather than the opposite.

One of the issues with looking at gaps in theistic arguments is that, in reality, there aren’t many clear gaps. There aren’t many because of the nature of God. If God is omnipotent, then, theoretically, there is nothing God cannot do short of logical impossibilities. Therefore, God can be manipulated in such a way as to be able to weather most criticisms, especially since God is mainly seen (for those who have not had experiential evidence at least) as a theoretical entity, and he can be postulated in many situations that are outside our ability to get empirical evidence to support that postulation. Arguments for naturalistic atheism simply can’t afford this sort of explanatory potentiality. As such, there aren’t the holes in theistic arguments that may exist in naturalistic arguments. For example, the creation out of nothing of the universe can easily be explained by God, and yet not by naturalistic methods because naturalistic methods always seem to require a mechanistic explanation, whereas God simply gets away with being omnipotent. Although there might not be many gaps in theistic arguments for the existence of God, there are certainly weaknesses: chinks in the armour. In this light, then, does modern cosmology act as a smooth plaster to coat over these cracks?

Theistic philosophers and theologians such as the ubiquitous William Lane Craig have made a habit of re-polishing tarnished old arguments such as the Kalam Cosmological Argument (KCA), the Argument from Design and even the Ontological Argument so that they gleam anew, and carry good weight. So how does it leave the playing field? Can these arguments be formulated from a non-theistic point of view to conclude antithetically? Can the gaps in causality only be filled by God and can cosmology come to God’s help? In this essay, I hope to show that the cosmology involved in cosmological arguments can actually lead to different conclusions from those of Craig and theists who seek to use cosmology for their own ends; that multiverse theories do provide issues for fine-tuning theories; and that time in a four-dimensional sense leads to a potentially deterministic understanding of the universe. With these assertions in mind, and considering the ever-changing grounds of cosmology, I maintain that being dogmatic either way, whether one posits God or a naturalist explanation of cosmology in the gaps, one should indeed remain, at least in view of these arguments, strongly agnostic.

Let us begin by looking at the Kalam Cosmological Argument (KCA). The KCA, as Craig would establish it in its simplest form, is as follows:

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause of its

existence.

2. The universe began to exist.

3. Therefore, the universe has a cause of its

existence.[2]

The first point to make in regard to this argument is with premise 1. It seems somewhat presumptuous to make a generalised rule about something that has only happened (to our knowledge, and that is itself open to challenge) once, and in such a way that we do not know the causal process, and therefore cannot make a generalised rule. What Craig is doing here is making a statement based on observations within a system to create a rule that supposedly governs the system itself. On face value, it may seem true that everything within this cosmos that begins to exist, has a cause. However, on closer examination, one can see that nothing ‘comes into existence’ in our cosmos, not in any material sense, anyway. All things that begin to exist, already existed in a different or re-arranged form. For example, one might think that there is a preceding cause to a radio coming into existence: the company that designed and manufactured it. And yet, the radio already existed, but merely in different atomic structures: the plastics as oil; the metal in their respective ores etc. In fact, looking at the finite matter of the universe, the only thing that has ‘come into existence’ has been the universe itself. Therefore, it is incoherent to claim that all things that come into existence have a (preceding) cause, when the only thing that has come into existence is the very thing whose existence we are trying to fathom.

This argument, though, is not as simple as meets the eye. Someone in Craig’s position may claim that the abstract idea of a radio did, indeed, come into existence at the point of it being manufactured, or even the point of being first thought of. The argument then becomes a matter of whether abstract objects and ideas exist objectively. This is known as the Problem of Universals. Are ‘strength’ or the ‘quality of redness’ objective realities? Is William Craig, himself, an objective reality, or is the only reality that exists the atoms and energy that make up his corporeal personhood? When does a beach become a beach, objectively? The slippery slope fallacy (theory of the beard) would hold that there is an arbitrary point (number of granules of sand) at which we can label the beach a beach. Craig, to hold to the KCA must adhere to realism. That is to say, he must believe that abstract thoughts and ideas have objective realities in order to ‘come into existence’. We know this because, as stated, the only things that can be argued to come into existence, since all matter (energy) already exists, are abstract ideas. And if premise 1 is to have any sort of meaning or coherence, then abstract things must exist (i.e. come into existence). Remember, “whatever begins to exist has a cause of its existence”. Personally, as a nominalist, I find it impossible to grant that universals have objectively real existence. It appears that abstract ideas have no objective reality, that seeing the redness of a new car is a reaction that my brain has in the situation of seeing the car, but that quality is not objectively existent.

Let us look, then, at nominalism. Do I have any basis to allow myself to be a nominalist, to deny the objective existence of abstract ideas? Plato was probably the first philosopher to deal with the problem of universals, the existence of abstracts. He believed that there was another realm, another dimension, aside from the physical world, where abstracts exist. With our modern understanding of the world, this seems (to me, at any rate) a little far-fetched. Naturalism[3], as a worldview, would deny such an existence outside of space and time. The locus of existence for universals remains a problem that realists fail to be able to answer. Another possibility is that the abstract ideas do exist in the mind, and not as an external reality. This is a position to which I could logically hold, and is known as conceptualism. However, if abstract ideas can exist, but only in the mind, the argument then devolves to one of dualism against monism (or some kind of physicalism). In other words, does the mind exist in a realm outside of the natural world (dualism) or can the mind be explained within the context of the physical world (monism through physicalism)? Occam’s Razor[4] can be called in here to the defence of physicalism, and nominalism (or conceptualism). Need we rely on the existence of another, as yet empirically unevidenced[5], dimension to explain minds and universals? The debate about consciousness will no doubt rage on for some years to come, though it seems that little evidence has been added to the Cartesian[6] argument for dualism, and much progress has been made in understanding consciousness in terms of physical explanations, or physical dependency.

So, it seems, abstract ideas could exist in the mind alone (as conceptualism suggests), but if the mind is physical in nature, then the abstract ideas themselves become physical phenomena. Universals are simply the rearrangement of pre-existing physical matter within the confines of the physically explained mind. Therefore, nothing, not even abstracts, has come into existence. That which came into existence was already there, it was just reformed. A physicalist (naturalist) worldview implies that abstracts are material in foundation.

However, even granting that Craig is correct in his assumptions of the truth of realism, can he use the notions of the existence of abstract ideas to infer a quality about the material universe at the Big Bang? Here, I would again have to say that the position is untenable. At the Big Bang, the universe was an infinitely dense bundle of matter or energy. This is a purely material ‘coming into existence’ and remains the only material ‘coming into existence’ up unto this very day. Apples and oranges. Craig is using characteristics of one idea of reality (abstract ideas) and transferring them across to something else (the only material form that has come into existence). Craig is claiming that abstract ideas come into existence. He claims that these need a cause. He then claims that the universe came into existence, and, therefore, it needs a cause. However, just because abstract ideas (in Craig’s view) come into existence and require causes, it does not follow that the universe (a dense bundle of matter and energy at the singularity) came into existence and required a cause. This is analogous to saying that plants need roots to gather nutrients and, as such, all living things need roots to gather nutrients. Therefore, animals need roots to gather nutrients. This clearly does not follow logically.

Thus, whether one is a realist or a nominalist (which, on its own, can make the KCA incoherent), the implications for the first premise of the KCA are seemingly terminal.

Let us now look at the KCA again. Craig posits, to support his second premise with scientific credibility, the following:

These purely philosophical arguments for the beginning of the universe have received remarkable confirmation from discoveries in astronomy and astrophysics during this century. These confirmations might be summarized under two heads: the confirmation from the expansion of the universe and the confirmation from thermodynamic properties of the universe.[7]

Essentially, he, and many cosmologists such as Paul Davies[8], claim that the cosmos started with a singularity, implying a beginning. The universe is almost universally believed to be expanding and has been for some 13 billion years or so, when it was, in its totality, condensed into a size smaller than a speck of dust.

If we look past the issues that were just exhibited with regards to premise 1, then let us look at the notion that the cosmos had a definite beginning. In one fell swoop, Craig dismisses or ignores many good alternative explanations, with apparent ease. But I would be a little more cautious than that.

Stephen Hawking, ubiquitously quoted on this subject, has now retracted his previously held belief in an initial singularity. Hawking, and many others, have misgivings over the science underlying singularities, and possible explanations for observed phenomena[9]. Hawking has proposed several alternatives, most famously with Jim Hartle, the most notable of which is often called the No-Boundary Hypothesis which posits that time loses characteristics of spatiality and therefore “the concept of a beginning in time become meaningless”[10]. Time has ‘no boundary’, such as like the planet earth (or a ball) has no boundary – no beginning or end in a linear fashion.

This sort of theory is not universally accepted, by any means, but new theories rarely are to begin with. Heliocentrism was originally a hard sell. The area that we find ourselves in when talking about the conditions around the ‘creation’ of the cosmos is the area of quantum mechanics, and its attempted unification with general relativity[11]. Without getting too bogged down with science, one such theory that offers to unify the two is Loop Quantum Gravity, which seeks to reappraise either gravity or geometry. This mathematical and predictive theory is at the forefront of modern cosmology. The core characteristic, for the point of this argument, is the idea that it replaces the Big Bang (and its singularity) with a Big Bounce. This theory has received recent (2007) mathematical correlation from Martin Bojowald at Pennsylvania State University, by ‘solving’ time before the Big Bang (a notoriously problematic noltion), thus supporting Big Bounce theories[12]. Big Bounce theories assert that the universe operates cyclically, that every Big Bang is preceded by a collapse of the previous universe.

My point here is to make it clear that it is simply fallacious to state with any kind of certitude that the Big Bang singularity was the beginning of this one and only universe, and the beginning of time (created ex nihilo by a Creator). To invoke cosmology as a saving grace in this context is a little selective. Though I have only mentioned two, there are plenty of other alternatives. Furthermore, there is no way of being able to apply a probability of one alternative over another. In effect, agnosticism should constrain us from being able to assert premise 2 of the KCA, especially considering the weakness of premise 1. I would also tend towards the notion that, even given God’s supposed omnipotence, it is still incoherent that God could produce anything ex nihilo. There is something inherently, and intuitively problematic about the whole process of creation ex nihilo that I find hard to swallow[13]. Adolf Grünbaum, writing in the journal Philosophy of Science, masterfully sums up this dilemma:

Therefore, if creation out of nothing (ex nihilo) is beyond human understanding, then the hypothesis that it occurred cannot explain anything. Even less can it then be required to fill explanatory gaps that exist in scientific theories of cosmogony. Indeed, it seems to me that if something literally passes all understanding, then nothing at all can be said or thought about it by humans. As Wittgenstein said: Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. Dogs, for example, do not bark about relativity theory. Thus, any supposed hypothesis that literally passes all understanding is simply meaningless to us, and it certainly should not inspire a feeling of awe. To stand in awe before an admittedly incomprehensible hypothesis is to exhibit a totally misplaced sense of intellectual humility! It is useless to reply to this conclusion by saying that the creation hypothesis may be intelligible to "higher beings" than ourselves, if there are such. After all, it is being offered to us as a causal explanation![14]

However, as philosopher Wes Morriston states[15], given that the ‘Greatest Conceivable Being’ would be one that could create ex nihilo, the idea of whether God can possibly create anything ex nihilo becomes an argument over conceivability

God is often planted into the First Cause gap as an axiom at which all regression can safely come to rest. Causality implies that an event, as Premise 1 of the KCA would suggest, has a (preceding) cause. The preceding cause would need its own preceding cause ad infinitum; and we cannot have an infinite regress. Enter stage left God, who, being eternally existent, bypasses all rules of causality. However, for someone who is agnostic, it seems no more implausible to posit an eternally existing universe (in one form or another) to bypass this kind of causality, than an eternally existing God. Moreover, we could invoke Occam’s Razor again to suggest that God is a further, unnecessary explanatory layer, and a more complex one at that[16]. Bojowald and his Big Bounce theory postulates that time ‘restarts’ at every Big Bang, and thus terms such as ‘preceding cause’ and ‘infinite regress’ become incoherent. As Bofowald himself says in Scientific American:

The universe, in short, has a tragic case of forgetfulness. It may have existed before the big bang, but quantum effects during the bounce wiped out almost all traces of this prehistory.[17]

The explanatory gap that was once filled by God in an answer to problems of infinite regression can now plausibly be filled with modern cosmology, it seems. Rather than coming to the support of theistic arguments, it appears that cosmology can equally be employed by those of atheistic persuasion.

Many theistic scholars propose the idea that the universe we live in, irrespective of its beginning, appears to be finely-tuned for life. In the last century, with our scientific advancements, it is claimed that the many physical constants that inform the fabric of this universe are so precise and particular, that it seems incredibly unlikely to have happened by chance, or without the guiding touch of a designing Creator. As Craig states:

When one mentally assigns different values to these constants or forces, one discovers that in fact the number of observable universes, that is to say, universes capable of supporting intelligent life, is very small. Just a slight variation in any one of these values would render life impossible.[18]

And yet, given that this is true (and there is much to be argued about this), the point is rendered impotent in light of the possibility that this universe, with its highly unlikely combination of physical constants, might be one of an infinite number of universes, with different physical laws. Given an infinite number of universes, it then becomes likely that there will be (at least) one bearing life-permitting physical constants. An infinite number of universes (sometimes call the Ultimate Ensemble) is a theory that has been gathering momentum. Although evidence (in the case of Max Tegmark[19]) for a multiverse is predominantly mathematically theoretical, there are some glimmers of tangible evidence. The National Geographic[20] reported Kashlinksy et al[21] as claiming that the sinister sounding ‘dark flow’ in the universe “can't be explained by current models for distribution of mass in the universe. So the researchers made the controversial suggestion that the clusters are being tugged on by the gravity of matter outside the known universe.” What they are suggesting is that other universes may well be having a gravitational effect on our universe, particularly with regards to dark flow. Dark flow is a phenomenon found in 2008 that describes the motion of clusters of galaxies in the context of cosmic background microwave radiation. These clusters of stars are moving both directionally and at a speed that cannot be accounted for within our current understanding. In an interview to Discovery News, Kashlinsky said of his discoveries, “At this point we don't have enough information to see what it is, or to constrain it. We can only say with certainty that somewhere very far away the world is very different than what we see locally. Whether it's 'another universe' or a different fabric of space-time we don't know.”[22] This data has since been further supported[23]. Cosmic gaps, dark flow, and other cosmological anomalies that are pushing the boundaries of science and understanding offer many opportunities for theories such as multiverse theories to hold credibility. Again, we see that rather than adding credibility and authority to theistic arguments, modern cosmology is potentially creating a headache for theists who seek to use it to their advantage.

One of the more recent adaptations to a traditional argument[24] has been the argument from fine-tuning. This argument states that the combination of incredibly precise constants, and the supposedly tiny probability of life existing, infers that the universe has been fine-tuned for life by a Creator. It is true that there are many physicists, such as Paul Davies, who believe that the incredibly delicate balance of physical constants do indeed point to fine-tuning for life, and even for the existence of matter at all. The argument, though, is not so simple. It can be argued that the probability of a non-divinely created universe is 100%. If one assumes that there is no God, and we do have life, then the probability of life in the universe is 1. As Victor Stenger, American particle physicist, points out:

… we can empirically estimate the probability that a universe will have life. We know of one universe, and that universe has life, so the "measured" probability is 100 percent, albeit with a large statistical uncertainty. This rebuts a myth that has appeared frequently in the design literature … that only a multiple-universe scenario can explain the coincidences without a supernatural creator (Swinburne, 1990). Multiuniverses are certainly a possible explanation, but a multitude of other, different universes is not the sole naturalistic explanation available for the particular structure of our universe.[25]

One of the next points to make is that it is fallacious to assume that our type of carbon-based life is the only type of life that can exist. This “carboncentrism” is debated amongst physicists, with many, such as Victor Stenger, insisting that silicon-based life (or similar elementally-based life) are theoretically viable[26]. The existence of life is a very different ballgame to ‘life-as-we-know-it’, especially when concerning the construction of probabilities. Moreover, in June 2010, two reports based on data from a NASA spacecraft (Cassini) claimed that a likely explanation for complex chemical activity on Titan, a moon of Saturn, was that there was methane based life, rather than oxygen based life[27]. If this is the case, what other types of life might exist in the far reaches of our massive cosmos? The probabilities of life existing in our cosmos are then drastically reduced.

Next, it is impossible to know that, with a combination of constants with different values, life would not exist. The very adaptability of life could mean that a very different sort of life might exist in a very different sort of universe / existence. Atomic nuclei, for example, could react in a very different manner under changed constant values, and could be able to assemble into molecular structures, which they struggle to do so easily in this universe.

One methodological contradiction often exhibited by theists revolves around the congeniality of the universe to life. Theists will argue that the universe is so finely-balanced to afford life that it clearly shows that the universe is designed with life in mind. The earth, for example, is just right for life – not too hot, not too cold (why we are called the Goldilocks planet at times). The earth, and thus the cosmos, seems congenial to life, and as such, has all the hallmarks of a Creator. However, on the other hand, the universe seems a very unlikely place to promote life, that it is so extraordinarily hostile and improbable in terms of a naturalistic explanation, that God must surely have been responsible. There is an uneasy contradiction existing with the two approaches here.

Furthermore, if the universe was fine-tuned for life, especially if humans were the apex of creation, then it seems irrational that we are living on a knife-edge, that life seems to be so unlikely, and conditions so inhospitable, that our very existence hangs in the balance. We are one big meteorite away from lights out. This, then, does not make a finely-tuned universe by God a likely scenario. If it is a fine-tuned universe, then with common understandings of God, one would expect it to be the best possible universe. And yet, evidence would suggest that it is not, with our knife-edge existence, the amount of suffering and death, the ease with which viruses and bacteria and predators can exist, and the scarcity of important resources. For these reasons, it seems appropriate to think that cosmology doesn’t necessarily support theistic arguments for the existence of God.

One incredibly interesting (and oftentimes confusing) subject within the sphere of physics is time. It is worth mentioning these modern approaches to the theory of time, and how they relate to physics (due to the repercussions they have on theology) and, in particular, notions of a personal god. Time is a concept that falls under the auspices of cosmology, and, as such, is a welcome contribution to this essay. Recently, there has been growing support amongst physicists for an interpretation of time that is somewhat counter-intuitive, and yet that works more coherently with the existing laws of physics than our traditional notion. Traditionally, we see time as a linear idea, such that it is “represented by a single, straight, non-branching, continuous line that extends without end in each of its two directions. This is the “standard topology” for time.”[28] On the standard interpretation (such as by Craig) of the Big Bang, the line would start at the initial singularity, and would progress in a linear fashion from thereon. Most people would then see, at any point in time, events in the past as past facts, events in the present as fact, and events in the future as potential facts, such that the only objects that exist are present ones (a position also known as presentism). This interpretation, with everything in relation to the present, is called the A-Theory of time[29] as according to J.M.E. McTaggart in his famous 1908 paper The Unreality of Time. The B-Theory of time only sees time as a positional relationship between two events, such that X happened 2 days before Y. It is the B-Theory of time which is seemingly becoming more attractive to philosophers and physicists alike[30] where time does not really pass, but that one event is earlier than another, and any idea that it does is simply a factor of human perception. Commonly, this argument can be summarised as one of tense, with B-Theorists believing that there is no such thing as tense, as past, present and future.

Physics enters the fray in the form of special relativity which dictates that no two events can be absolutely simultaneous, which means that the ‘arrow of time’ that we perceive cannot objectively be true. This arrow of time that is part and parcel of the A-Theory is often re-interpreted under the B-Theory, in conjunction with modern physics, to be understood as a real dimension, such as space, and thus the universe can be seen as a ‘Block Universe’, and we have ‘Block Time’. Space-time is seen as a four-dimensional block in and of itself, rather than being a three-dimensional block modulated by time. Under block time, all moments of time are considered equally real. Thus, future events are as real as present ones, which means that they are determined: set in stone. As Vlatko Vedral, Professor of Quantum Information Science at the University of Leeds, says:

According to Einstein the universe actually exists all at once, and everything that has happened and will happen is already there in what we now call the “block universe”. All the future instances of time are already laid out on a line in a four-dimensional block-like reality, as far as general relativity is concerned. Einstein is famously quoted as saying that any change with passage of time is merely “an illusion, albeit a persistent one”. This is full determinism at its best.[31]

Granted that quantum physics itself gives many a scientist the opportunity to throw uncertainty or randomness into the equation, but it really depends on what interpretation of quantum physics you adhere to (and ironically, in this, there is a large amount of uncertainty!). The Bohm interpretation, for example, is entirely deterministic (of which Einstein himself was a proponent).

Why is this view of the block universe important in the context of this paper? If one posits God as an explanatory mechanism in areas for which we presently have little or no explanation or enough understanding (in a God-of-the-Gaps fashion), then it is important that the God posited is seen in the light of what we do know, or at least think we know. And if the universe in which you might be able to shoehorn God happens to be a deterministic one (here defined by the qualities of a four dimensional block), then the notion of the theistic and personal God which is so often evoked becomes either meaningless, or at the very least, entirely different.

After all, it is one thing to position God into the equation, and another to claim that he possesses the characteristics that are so often claimed of him (omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence) or that we possess qualities that are necessitated by this personal God (free will). Although this may not seem relevant to the question at hand, since we are debating whether God can and should be used as an ontological explanation, and not what characteristics God has, I think that it does play an important part. Firstly, if one is to use science, such as special relativity, to argue for God in the context of fine-tuning of the universe, then they must be ready to accept its consequences when considering time.

Secondly, many people who weigh up the arguments for God start off with the notion that God has (usually at least) these three core characteristics. These add a certain plausibility and attractiveness to the cumulative argument for God, and often (given the choice of God or no God) act as a persuasive carrot dangling down in front of a would-be agnostic. However, if we know that God is not omnibenevolent, or that we do not have free will, does the persuasiveness of theistic arguments become somewhat diminished? I can’t help but think that the position becomes weakened, that knowing these characteristics as being incoherent, or knowing that we effectively have no free will, means that the plausibility for a naturalistic cosmological explanation to fill these gaps becomes all the greater. For example, to return to issues of a First Causer for the universe, if we were to have a choice between and eternally existing God being the initial causer of the universe, or an eternally existing universe, then one may be more inclined to settle for God creating the universe. This might be done, for instance, on the grounds that one might find the standard Big Bang singularity more convincing. However, if science is telling you that were live in a deterministic universe, and that this is essentially incoherent with (most) notions of God, then it suddenly becomes more plausible (cumulatively) that the eternally existing universe is the correct explanation of causality.

As an analogy, imagine a local horse went missing, and we had two theories to account for this. One was that it had simply run off by itself, and the other was that it had been eaten by an escaped animal from the local zoo. Now, given that the horse was well loved, and loved its owners, one could find it more plausible that the escaped animal had devoured it. However, if we then found out that the characteristic of that escaped animal was that it was vegetarian, and all members of its species were clearly vegetarian, then plausibility straight away swings back to the horse having run away. Thus, the characteristics of entities have a huge impact on whether they can be utilised as explanations for phenomena.

Therefore, to conclude, I would say that the certainty with which theists wield cosmology and physics is not only ill-placed, but also highly selective. To return to the musings of Wes Morriston:

…since almost everything connected with the Big Bang theory is highly speculative, it would be a grave mistake to draw from it any firm conclusions about the cause(s) of the Big Bang. Deriving any conclusion from the Big Bang theory about the truth or falsity of classical theism is premature at best.[32]

I would certainly agree with that opinion in light of what I have mentioned here. What I have shown is that there are understandings of physics that render a theistic God both unnecessary and incoherent. I claim that, instead of being an ally of theists, modern cosmology can just as easily be pitted against theism. It should not be a case of using science when it best suits you, and cherry-picking theories, but a case of looking at the spectrum of theories, and seeing them in a holistic context. For example, special relativity may work for a theist in the argument from fine-tuning, but how does it cohere with notions of time? Rather than filling the gaps in theistic arguments, cosmology can exacerbate them. I am not claiming that any of the theories that I have mentioned are true, but that it is very “premature” to have a worldview that rests on cosmological theory when deciphering the truth value of any given theory is a risky business. Putting your money on theism seems as risky as putting your money on atheism. At the very least, I would declare that agnosticism is a wise (and should be the default) choice in this ever-changing and fascinating field.

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[1] Pyrrho of Elis was one of the first proponents of scepticism, later to be heralded by the likes of Sextus Empiricus. In its most radical of forms, such as Sextus Empiricus would claim, it advises one to refrain from making any truth claim, that one should remain agnostic about anything and everything. If one adopted the position that truth itself is impossible, the position would become untenable in light of the self-refuting truth claim.

[2]William Lane Craig, http://www.leaderu.com/truth/3truth11.html (6/6/2010)

[3] Naturalism being the worldview that all of reality can be explained by nature, or science, and it does not call upon the supernatural as an explanation for anything (whether this be the paranormal, the spiritual, or God).

[4] whereby the simplest most plausible explanation is preferable that does not posit unnecessary assumptions or explanatory layers

[5] Admittedly, there is a difficulty of finding physical evidence for a mental dimension. However, there are other issues that can cast doubt upon a non-physical dimension, such as how the mental interacts with the physical (interactionism), what the mechanisms in the brain are for this, and where they are located, and how the non-physical dimension can ‘energise’ a physical dimension, thus contradicting the law of conservation of energy.

[6] Réné Déscartes famously proposed his version that the mind and body are separate entities, separating the mind (consciousness) from the brain.

[7]William Lane Craig, http://www.leaderu.com/truth/3truth11.html (6/6/2010)

[8]“If we extrapolate [back in time], we reach a point where all distances in the universe have shrunk to zero. An initial cosmological singularity therefore forms a past temporal extremity to the universe… For this reason most cosmologists think of the initial singularity as the beginning of the universe. On this view the big bang represents the creation event; the creation not only of all the matter and energy in the universe, but also of spacetime itself.” - Paul Davies, “Spacetime singularities in cosmology” in J.T. Fraser (ed.), The Study of Time III, pages 78-79.

[9] Many criticisms are too complex for a paper such as this, but such examples would include: spacetime not necessarily being infinitely divisible (if it can be quantised into discrete units, then Davies’ assumptions are invalid);

[10] “Imaginary Time” from The Routledge Companion to the New Cosmology. ISBN: 0-203-16457-1. Published: 2003–03–27. ©2009 Taylor and Francis, http://www.bookrags.com/tandf/imaginary-time-tf/#p2000591e8830223001 (11/06/2010)

[11] Many physicists are devoting their efforts to find a way of unifying quantum physics, the behaviour of matter in the microscopic world, with general relativity, the behaviour of matter on the macroscopic world, as matter does not seem to be regulated by the same rules in each situation.

[12] Bojowald, Martin (2007). "What happened before the Big Bang?". Nature Physics 3 (8): 523–525 (http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/v3/n8/abs/nphys654.html 28/-6/2010)

[13] Some theologians are starting to doubt the Judeo-Christian God creating the universe ex nihilo from biblical exegesis. There is evidence within Genesis that a primordial chaos pre-existed, and God manipulated this matter and energy to reform the universe and create life. This radically alters notions of ex nihilo creation within this context, and turns it into a transformative creation.

[14] Adolf Grünbaum, “The Pseudo-Problem of Creation in Physical Cosmology,” Philosophy of Science vol. 56, no. 3 (1989): 373–394

[15] Wes Morriston, “Creation ex Nihilo and the Big Bang”, Philo Vol. 5, No.1, ,http://www.philoonline.org/library/morriston_5_1.htm (03/07/2010)

[16] Assuming that something that is responsible for creating the universe is more complex than the universe itself.

[17] Martin Bojowald, Big Bang or Big Bounce?: New Theory on the Universe's Birth, http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=big-bang-or-big-bounce (02/07/2010)

[18] http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/teleo.html (28/06/2010)

[19] Cosmologist Max Tegmark has proposed four levels of mutliverse that could exist. http://space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/multiverse.pdf (08/07/2010)

[20] The National Geographic, Published March 22, 2010, http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/03/100322-dark-flow-matter-outside-universe-multiverse/ (28/06/2010)

[21]A. Kashlinsky et al, (2010), The Astrophysical Journal Letters, Volume 712, Number 1 http://iopscience.iop.org/2041-8205/712/1/L81 (28/06/2010)

[22] http://news.discovery.com/space/dark-flow-universe.html (03/07/2010)

[23]This phenomena has since been observed to operate at twice the initial speed thought in 2008, so that entire clusters of stars are moving at an astonishing million miles an hour. This data (2010) has actually answered the criticisms levelled at the initial 2008 data. (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100310162829.htm 05/07/2010) reporting from A. Kashlinsky, F. Atrio-Barandela, H. Ebeling, A. Edge, and D. Kocevski. A New Measurement of the Bulk Flow of X-Ray Luminous Clusters of Galaxies. The Astrophysical Journal, 2010; 712 (1): L81 DOI:

[24] Teleological Argument or Argument from Design

[25]Victor Stenger, University of Colorado, “Is The Universe Fine-tuned For Us?” http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/Cosmo/FineTune.pdf (08/07/2010)

[26] A philosophical discussion about what denotes life, and whether Artificial Intelligence, being silicon-based, could be construed as life might be a worthwhile aside here.

[27] Clark, R. N., et al. Detection and Mapping of Hydrocarbon Deposits on Titan. Journal of Geophysical Research, 2010; (in press) DOI: 10.1029/2009JE003369

[28]As the Stanford Encyclopaedia of Philosophy would have it. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/time/ (25/06/2010)

[29] Or A series, A properties, A relations and other such dynamic labels.

[30] http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/time/ (25/06/2010)

[31] http://www.qi.leeds.ac.uk/~vlatko/articles/determinism.pdf (28/06/2010)

[32] Wes Morriston, “Creation ex Nihilo and the Big Bang”, Philo Vol. 5, No.1

54 comments:

John said...

Wow! What a post! I would agree with alot of what you have written here. I agree that our assumptions do color the way we look at the evidence and that physics changes over time. I think we can test our assumptions though with science to see if they are correct. Moreover, while physics doesn't give us absolute proof it can give us evidnce that is highly likely. It's my scientificaly testable prediction that as time goes on the already overwhelming evidence for the standard Big Bang will grow stronger and hence the need for a Creator of somesort.

Every effect has a cause (self- evident principle of science that is true by definition)

Our universe is an effect (It came into existence with the big bang)

Therefore, our universe has a cause

GearHedEd said...

"...It should not be a case of using science when it best suits you, and cherry-picking theories, but a case of looking at the spectrum of theories, and seeing them in a holistic context."

Theists have no qualms about cherry-picking when it comes to their favorite 'historical document'; why should we expect any different from them when they attempt to interpret science (which many of them are utterly ignorant about in the first place)?

GearHedEd said...

@ Cole,

You ARE aware that the whole paper just demolished Craig's Kalam Cosmological Argument?

GearHedEd said...

Oh, yeah...

Physics doesn't change; our understanding of it improves over time.

John said...

Yes,

That's why I offered a different version.

John said...

Thanks for the correction. That's really what I meant to say.

matt the magnificient said...

cole, are you serious? 30 minutes ago you were spouting off about jesus. now your ready to throw Theism to the wind in exchange for agnosticism, as long as you can hold on to a creation scenerio. you do realize the implications of what this article does to the entire Christian Belief system, don't you?

you are truly the Wind Sock of the universe, I think. any stiff breeze changes your direction

John said...

Matt,

When did I change to agnosticism?

matt the magnificient said...

cole.

Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable. Agnosticism can be defined in various ways, and is sometimes used to indicate doubt or a skeptical approach to questions. In some senses, agnosticism is a stance about the similarities or differences between belief and knowledge, rather than about any specific claim or belief.

you said " It's my scientificaly testable prediction that as time goes on the already overwhelming evidence for the standard Big Bang will grow stronger and hence the need for a Creator of somesort."

"a Creator of somesort."
sounds like Agnosticism to me. or deism. certainly not the definitve arguements youve been expousing about christianity lately.

John said...

Matt,

This is only one argument. I said that because I don't think this argument ALONE gives us knowledge of Christ.

Shawn said...

So much effort to argue logic against 2000+ year old Middle Eastern fairy tales.
There is no logic, no formula, no science, that will convince someone willing to suspend rational thought in favour of ancient mysticism, which quite openly admits it's central tenents all have to be taken on "faith".
Anyone with an ounce of intellect focused on this matter would have already reviewed the foundations of theism and the extent of human intervention in it's historic and modern forms, and concluded that all religions are entirely humanly constructed myths and ideaologies designed to give the promise of cheating death, man's greatest fear. They might ask themselves a simple question like - "Why are all Gods silent and invisible (with the exception of brief appearances in the middle east millenium ago)"?
The current debates about the nature of the universe (or universes)are simply personal opinions (on both sides)on a subject noone is qualified to take conclusive positions on.
Makes you look smart to non-physicists and non-cosmologists though, I suppose.

GearHedEd said...

The REAL problem is that the God-O-Meter(TM) has been tipping ever closer to the bell on the "NOPE." side for the last 500 years, and theists just refuse to give up their cherished security blanket.

GearHedEd said...

It takes WAAAAAY too much self-deception to truly believe in that stuff; that's why I don't believe it.

Jayman said...

Johnathon Pearse:

The assumptions that underlie most premises in cosmological arguments are often open to debate, and they depend, in no small part, on present physical and cosmological understanding.

The KCA pre-dates modern science. It is noteworthy that pre-modern proponents of the KCA concluded the universe has a finite past before the development of the Big Bang theory.

Occam’s Razor [4] can be called in here to the defence of physicalism, and nominalism (or conceptualism).

Parsimony is used to determine the simplest theory that explains all the data. As you seem to admit, there is not a materialist account of the mind that explains all the data. If dualism provides a better explanation of the data then physicalism cannot be defended by appeals to parsimony.

Universals are simply the rearrangement of pre-existing physical matter within the confines of the physically explained mind.

If this is true, in what sense is any premise in the KCA true or false? For example, how is the brain matter that represents the proposition "the universe began to exist" true or false? Is brain matter special in that it can contain true and false proposition whereas, say, a rock cannot?

In one fell swoop, Craig dismisses or ignores many good alternative explanations, with apparent ease.

To be fair, he does deal with alternative scientific hypotheses at length in other places (e.g., Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology). Plus the second premise is supported by philosophical arguments in addition to scientific arguments.

However, for someone who is agnostic, it seems no more implausible to posit an eternally existing universe (in one form or another) to bypass this kind of causality, than an eternally existing God.

If the combination of philosophical and scientific arguments rules out an eternal universe then this is not a viable option.

And yet, given that this is true (and there is much to be argued about this), the point is rendered impotent in light of the possibility that this universe, with its highly unlikely combination of physical constants, might be one of an infinite number of universes, with different physical laws.

Isn't positing the existence of one deity simpler than positing the existence of an infinite number of universes (all else being equal)?

Given an infinite number of universes, it then becomes likely that there will be (at least) one bearing life-permitting physical constants.

Given an infinite number of universes, what are the chances that one of them has a deity?

Firstly, if one is to use science, such as special relativity, to argue for God in the context of fine-tuning of the universe, then they must be ready to accept its consequences when considering time.

Not necessarily. If one takes an eclectic approach to the realism/anti-realism debate in the philosophy of science one may accept a scientific theory in one field as reflecting (approximating) reality while denying that a scientific theory in another field reflects reality. It is my understanding that Lorentz's theory is observationally equivalent to Einstein's theory. We don't know if Einstein's position reflects reality or is merely compatible with our observations.

GearHedEd said...

"The KCA pre-dates modern science. It is noteworthy that pre-modern proponents of the KCA concluded the universe has a finite past before the development of the Big Bang theory."

Big deal. Flip of a coin.

"Parsimony is used to determine the simplest theory that explains all the data. As you seem to admit, there is not a materialist account of the mind that explains all the data. If dualism provides a better explanation of the data then physicalism cannot be defended by appeals to parsimony."

The dualist approach is just as speculative and has no hard evidence backing it, either.

"If this is true, in what sense is any premise in the KCA true or false? For example, how is the brain matter that represents the proposition "the universe began to exist" true or false? Is brain matter special in that it can contain true and false proposition whereas, say, a rock cannot?"

Thought isn't brain matter, Einstein. Thought IS a function of the energy patterns dependent on a LIVE brain.

"To be fair, he does deal with alternative scientific hypotheses at length in other places (e.g., Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology). Plus the second premise is supported by philosophical arguments in addition to scientific arguments."

There's nothing conclusive scientifically supporting the KCA. And don't cite Borde-Guth-Vilenkin. Been there, done that. It's not as airtight as supporters of the KCA want it to be. And the Philosophical arguments amount to speculation.

"If the combination of philosophical and scientific arguments rules out an eternal universe then this is not a viable option."

See directly above. There's no refutation out there, or we wouldn't be having this chat.

(more)

GearHedEd said...

"Isn't positing the existence of one deity simpler than positing the existence of an infinite number of universes (all else being equal)?"

Yeah, if you're into making guesses.

"Given an infinite number of universes, what are the chances that one of them has a deity?"

If one has a deity, then ALL have a deity. So the probability of 1/infinity = exactly ZERO.

"Not necessarily. If one takes an eclectic approach to the realism/anti-realism debate in the philosophy of science one may accept a scientific theory in one field as reflecting (approximating) reality while denying that a scientific theory in another field reflects reality. It is my understanding that Lorentz's theory is observationally equivalent to Einstein's theory. We don't know if Einstein's position reflects reality or is merely compatible with our observations."

Cherry-Picking, anyone?

Jayman said...

GearHedEd:

The dualist approach is just as speculative and has no hard evidence backing it, either.

Dualism has the ability to explain things like qualia and intentionality that materialism cannot explain. Moreover, dualism is supported by things like near death experiences that should be impossible if materialism is true.

Thought isn't brain matter, Einstein. Thought IS a function of the energy patterns dependent on a LIVE brain

Neither Pearse (in the section I quoted) nor myself mentioned thought. He asserted that universals (not thought) can be reduced to a brain state (not a function of the brain). But even your approach fails to explain how any preposition can be true or false. The failure to answer this question renders materialism incoherent.

There's nothing conclusive scientifically supporting the KCA.

And my point is that trying to undermine scientific arguments supporting the KCA does not undermine the KCA as a whole.

And the Philosophical arguments amount to speculation.

I'll await your arguments to that effect.

If one has a deity, then ALL have a deity. So the probability of 1/infinity = exactly ZERO.

I see no reason why we have to assume that if one universe has a deity than all have a deity. Perhaps there is a Zeus on a Mt. Olympus in only one.

Cherry-Picking, anyone?

No, it's a critical approach to scientific theories. I don't assume that a scientific theory is a perfect reflection of reality. You do the same thing, at least with older scientific theories. Do you think Newton's ideas perfectly reflect reality? No, you believe they were only partially correct. Likewise, I believe current scientific theories may be only partially correct or useful fictions. Lorentz and Einstein can explain all our observations, but one of them has to be a useful fiction and the other may not be the whole truth. In light of this fact, it is erroneous to rely on Einstein's views to support a B theory of time.

Jeffrey A. Myers said...

I have to say I think the only intellectually honest answer to any question relating to 'What Caused the Big Bang?' is who knows. I'm a soft atheist. I'm willing to admit that, eh, you know what, some supra-advanced entity or civilization could have caused the Big Bang for some unfathomable purpose. Or it could have been simply a result of some random slapping together of branes in some multi-dimensional hyperspace or some other equally wild and metaphysical process. No one knows. No one can ever know. And ultimately the question is almost certainly irrelevant.

Most atheists are willing to admit that we don't know. It is the theists that claim to KNOW that God created this World. Moreover, that they know his personality. They know his Will. They claim to know this based on tattered fragments of old tribal legends written down by ancient peoples who claimed divine revelations, likely in order to secure their own local dominance.

To be sure, the Greatest Conceivable Being COULD take an interest in our species. But why? Because we think carbon based life is swell? Because we think we are a neato species? I just brought this up, but it bears repeating. We are not important in any cosmic sense. Even assuming that the Universe was an act of conscious authorship, the idea that such a being would give a rats ass about us is like expecting me to spend my time adjudicating disputes and righting wrongs between the bacteria living in Matt the Magnificent's bathtub. And the difference between the Creator of the Great All and us is MUCH greater than that. The arrogance in assuming that you know God's will, that we are SO important is staggering and stultifying. Get over yourselves.

And before you start claiming that I claim to know God too and that I'm projecting our lack of importance, I want to reiterate that certainly, if the entity or civilization that caused the Big Bang WANTED to, it COULD spend its time as our interplanetary handmaidens, absolving us of our petty, immaterial sins and granting our petty little prayers.

I just find that idea insulting to your God and imagine He has better things to do with his time than spending it making the Universe look like he isn't there.

The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvka said...

You (as a group) are pretty much refuting your own ideas. On one hand, you want somebody's amputated hand to grow instantly in place, so that you might believe in God. (Limb-creation ex nihilo). On the other hand, when you find out that the entire universe appeared from nothing, you still don't believe. And you honestly want God to take you and your lame, sorry excuses seriously.

Jonathan MS Pearce said...

Hi there guys,

My name is Jonathan Pearce and I wrote this essay, so thanks to John for posting it (though my name is spelt differently!).

I'm glad it' sparked off a little conversation.

@Lyka
"when you find out that the entire universe appeared from nothing, you still don't believe"

EH??????

the whole point of this essay is that you CAN'T claim this with any certitude!!! Did you read it? Since you can argue an eternally existing God, which theists do, there is no paradigm shift to argue an eternally existing universe(s).

@Jayman

As for dualism, don't get me started. Qualia can either be eliminated as an issue, or even existing, or changed to something else, or be explained by materialism. See the many good deconstructions of Mary's Room to show that qualia do not prove to be an issue. (see also synaesthesia and pain asymbolia). Actually, using Occam's razor, dualism is hugely more improbable. You have to posit an entire other dimension for crying out loud!

Incidentally, one criticism of dualism is that it can no better explain qualia, if they exist, than materialism. That's ridiculous, you don't even know how dualism works - there is no known mechanism - so how can you posit that it mechanistically explains qualia!!! Nuts.

i think all the other points have been answered. It seems that you claim because brains elicit abstract ideas such as truth and falsity, that it is illogical to call the KCA true or false. This doesn't have any bearing over whether there is an absolute truth or not.

Jonathan Pearce

Jonathan MS Pearce said...

thanks for changing that John! Good man!

Adrian said...

Johnny,

You write:

However, on closer examination, one can see that nothing ‘comes into existence’ in our cosmos, not in any material sense, anyway.

Under all formulations of the BB that I'm aware of, matter did arise in a process after the initial BB event (or "origin", whatever that means). So even if you accept the physics, wouldn't you say that all of the matter did "come into existence"? Am I missing something?

It seems to me there are good responses but I'm not sure I agree with yours. In some ways, the observation that matter can come into existence does give us a case to test the claim that it needs a cause so we can look at it directly without relying on pure reason or metaphysics. I think you may be missing an opportunity here.

Jonathan MS Pearce said...

@Tyro

that is the entire point of the essay:

if you believe that matter arose (ex nihilo) from the BB then this is the one and only time that things came into existence - everything else is what is known as a transformative coming into existence (the making of a radio out of already existing matter).

craig uses laws about transformative causality to make a logical argument about ex nihilo creation. this is apples and oranges. he cannot use laws governing tranformative comings into existence and use these laws in cases of the only ex nihilo creation we know. this is bad logic.

and yet, in eternally existing universes (big bounce etc) matter can also be eternal, and so the KCA is also undermined by there being NO cases of ex nihilo creation.

premise 1 states that everything that comes into existence has a cause for its existence.

either this is nothing. or the only thing that has come into existence is the universe itself. you cannot make a generalised law about a unique occurrence to prove that the unique occurrence happened in that way in the first place. it is supreme circular reasoning!

does that make sense?

Adrian said...

and yet, in eternally existing universes (big bounce etc) matter can also be eternal, and so the KCA is also undermined by there being NO cases of ex nihilo creation

From reading your essay, I get the impression that you're saying that all of the matter in our universe was somehow present at the time of the Big Bang and was just redistributed and these cyclic universe models do not have to account for its creation, is that a fair statement?

If so, I think that you're misunderstanding these theories. As far as I can tell, all of these different theories are there to account for the appearance and unfolding of our dimensions. At this point, our universe is essentially free of matter but as the dimensions unfurl and the universe expands, matter is created. This is a facet of all of the modern cosmological theories.

Again, I'm not saying this to undermine your argument, rather saying that we do have examples of where matter is being "created" and there is no causal agent responsible. I'm saying that by examining the theories closer we aren't so much negating the first statement as flipping it around 180 degrees as the only cases where we believe anything has come into existence, there is not thought to be any cause (nor any need for one). I'm saying that I think you have some details wrong but that by fixing them, you actually strengthen your argument.

Jonathan MS Pearce said...

@Tyro

i did mention, fleetingly (i only had 5000 words) that matter could exist eternally, and equated it with energy.

essentially, energy is the axiomatic 'substance', and i probably should have used the term energy.

matter is the transformative outcome of energy. matter is not created ex nihilo, but comes from the originally 'infinitely dense bundle of energy'.

so, really, it is energy that could have existed eternally, through big bounces. this would fit in with thermodynamic laws, though i know these seem to break down at such times. i simply can't get my head round the notion of anything being created ex nihilo. i'm not even sure an omnipotent god could do it!!!

Jonathan MS Pearce said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7iAnaYG5rE

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxIcYKEHAig

i've also set this out in 2 short youtube videos, if anyone gives a rat's arse.

Jayman said...

Johnny:

See the many good deconstructions of Mary's Room to show that qualia do not prove to be an issue. (see also synaesthesia and pain asymbolia).

Can you point me to what you consider the best decontruction of Mary's room?

Incidentally, one criticism of dualism is that it can no better explain qualia, if they exist, than materialism.

It may not be a full explanation but it is necessary to explain the immaterial aspects of the mind.

That's ridiculous, you don't even know how dualism works - there is no known mechanism - so how can you posit that it mechanistically explains qualia!!!

I never asserted that dualism mechanistically explains aspects of the mind. In fact, a purely mechanical explanation of the mind seems absurd.

It seems that you claim because brains elicit abstract ideas such as truth and falsity, that it is illogical to call the KCA true or false.

No, I'm saying that if abstract ideas are simply brain states then I don't see how truth can exist at all. What does it mean for a preposition to be true on this view?

Jonathan MS Pearce said...

@Jayman

hi there. mary's room. a nice easy place to start is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary's_room
but the awesome stanford encyclopedia of philosophy is great:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qualia-knowledge/

we could get onto a full dualism debate here, but it probably isn't the place. i am much more convinced of materialism / monism. not necessarily brain = consciousness but possibly, or similar since one supervenes on the other.

truth statements are human constructs, but there is still the absolute truth - ie actual state of affairs, which is what we are really talking about.

to quote my writing elsewhere:


One problem with this thought experiment is the premise that all can be learnt without experiencing. This is simply a dubious premise. As Daniel Dennett would say, Mary would simply not have the full knowledge of visually seeing red. A complete understanding would simply allow Mary to know how and why she would experience qualia. In this way, we can state that someone in Mary’s position would not be able to ski in that room, that the act of skiing gives over new information and ability . This is like fishing with a three-inch holed net and then claiming that 2 inch fish don’t exist because you have never caught any. We have in no way established that knowledge can be entirely learnt discursively – through reason and theory alone. We must remember that memory is a physical function within the brain, and it is memory that is involved so much in this process. If she has no memory of red, then she does not know all there is to know about red. Having the memory of going to the restaurant, for Mr. Scelta, is a different physical situation from being told what it is like. Moreover, the thought experiment itself is often critiqued as being a thought experiment with severe limitations and with several doubtful logical issues . Qualia are a veritable battleground of philosophical forays, flanking manoeuvres, frontal assaults, and defensive trench lines that philosophers have commanded. There are a whole host of philosophers who believe that these subjective experiences can either be described in physical terms, or that they do not actually exist as we perceive them.

Jonathan MS Pearce said...

and:

Either way, dualism is not necessitated by the idea of qualia.
Additionally, there are some physical phenomena that contribute to a physicalist understanding of qualia. Firstly, pain asymbolia is a condition that occurs when there is damage to specific parts of the brain. This causes the victim to lose all subjective responses to pain, so that they might know the difference between hot and cold, or when a needle pricks the skin, but have no subjective experience of the pain. In other words, they have no qualia of pain and this is resultant from a physical condition in the brain. Nerves in the brain can be severed to cause this exact phenomena, and patients can still feel the pain, but not have the experience of that pain – painless pain!
Another physical condition, known as synaesthesia, also defends qualia as physically rooted phenomena. This is a neurological condition whereby stimulation of one sensory pathway leads to involuntary stimulation of one or more other sensory or cognitive pathways. In other words, synesthetes can, for example, smell or hear colour, experience colour with letters or numbers, experience time in three dimensions (such that 1986 seems further away spatially than 1994), experience sound with visual stimulation and so on. There are scores and scores (over 60) of different manifestations of this condition, and it can be a naturally existing condition, or be brought on by drugs, stroke or temporal lobe epilepsy, among other things. Therefore, the extra qualia experienced by synesthetes are entirely grounded in a physical condition, and strongly points towards qualia being physical phenomena, not necessitating dualism.
Perhaps telling in the debate is that dualism itself doesn’t actually offer an explanation in the knowledge debate of qualia, as dualists spend most of their time trying to undermine physicalist arguments, rather than providing decent ones of their own. As The Stanford Encyclopaedia of Philosophy says:

There has not been much discussion of the knowledge argument from a dualist perspective. This is unsurprising given the small number of contemporary philosophers who defend a dualist position.

Adrian said...

Johnny,

matter is the transformative outcome of energy. matter is not created ex nihilo, but comes from the originally 'infinitely dense bundle of energy'.

It is a common misconception to think that because many theories start with a singularity that somehow it must have contained a vast amount of mass (or energy), and it was this mass which was later distributed via some sort of explosion, like shrapnel.

Things are much stranger than that.

The total energy of the early universe wasn't extremely large as many people mistakenly think, but extremely small. Zero actually. And little has changed since then - the net energy content of our universe is still zero.

The matter we see did not arise due to some large latent pool of energy being transformed into matter but rather as a reaction to the expanding universe. It's extremely counter-intuitive but it's well-accepted cosmology and is a part of all of the theories you cited.

Larry Krauss gives a talk on the subject aimed at educated laypeople: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo

i simply can't get my head round the notion of anything being created ex nihilo. i'm not even sure an omnipotent god could do it!!!

Depending on what you mean by ex nihilo, the matter in our universe really did come from nothing, not even a large pool of energy.

There are books which will go into this in more detail while still being accessible to motivated laypersons that should help get your head around it. But yes, in a strange twist, matter really did come from nothing but did so without the intervention of any causal agent or creator but just through natural processes.

Jonathan MS Pearce said...

Tyro

if that was the famous krauss video from last year about ex nihilo creation, he was a bit crafty in his definition of nothing. as i remember, nothing still included quantum wave functions, or something of the sort.

only this week, an article in the new scientist detailed how inflation fits better into a framework of the big bounce, using loop quantum gravity.

the point of the essay is to state that we do not know what happened at the big bang, we do not know whether there was a singularity, we do not know all osrts. and thus, agnosticism is sensible, and resting a pyramid of further theories and worldviews on the shaky pinnacle of 'dogmatic' cosmology.

as far as i understand it, high density energy expanded and cooled, and with baryogenesis, caused matter (and antimatter) to arrive.

the problem is establishing that the initial energy came out of nothing. from then on, its all fairly straightforward (!!!!).

the law of the conservation of mass-energy also indicates that there has been an unchanging amount of energy / matter since the big bang.

the essay stated that we can't make generalisations about what has happened WITHIN the system since the big bang, to make a rule ABOUT the system.

this still remains the case.

Adrian said...

Johnny,

as far as i understand it, high density energy expanded and cooled, and with baryogenesis, caused matter (and antimatter) to arrive.

High density possibly, but energy, not so much. If there was some net amount of energy at the start of the universe it was minor. The last I heard, the upper-bounds is somewhere on the order of the energy contained in 10-20kg of matter. When you compact that into a singularity then it will still be infinitely dense but not infinitely large, do you see?

Of course as you've also pointed out, many theories do away with this singularity and some even modify the inflation period but the large sweep is the same - the inflation of the universe results in a large amount of negative energy via gravity which is balanced out by the appearance of matter (positive energy).

the problem is establishing that the initial energy came out of nothing.

Again no, since the "initial energy" is zero in many models.

the law of the conservation of mass-energy also indicates that there has been an unchanging amount of energy / matter since the big bang.

Yes - the universe contains no net energy.

nothing still included quantum wave functions, or something of the sort.

That's not trickery, it's pointing out that all of the "things" - namely matter - came out of nothing, not even any net input of energy.

Quantum fluctuations are not the *cause* of matter, they're actually another complementary *description* of matter. You've heard something of quantum uncertainty I assume, where we can't know the position and momentum of a particle with arbitrary accuracy, there's a limit so as we learn more of one the uncertainty varies in the other. Well the same uncertainty applies to other quantum values, in particular the energy of a region of space cannot be known to arbitrary precision and will always fluctuate. These fluctuations in the energy take the form of the creation and annihilation of particle/anti-particle pairs. Under some circumstances the particle and its antiparticle don't annihilate and new matter results. This requires a corresponding decrease in energy elsewhere which is what happened when the universe expanded so the total energy remained constant - zero.

You may say that this is semantic games but you're wrong. All of the mass in the universe came into existence through this process - uncaused and without any external or pre-existing source of energy or matter. What it means is that everything we see and touch came from nothing (where "thing" is again matter or energy) and without a causal agent.

It is a very important point that pt 1 in the OP argument isn't merely incomplete or wrong but totally backwards. Everything which we know had a beginning we also know did NOT have a cause. We can ask questions about the universe but if we are to apply induction as the argument invites us to do, we would conclude the universe did NOT have a cause.

Adrian said...

Just to add - some people fallaciously claim that quantum uncertainty *causes* particles. Balderdash. Quantum uncertainty like all other theories are descriptive, they aren't some magical agent which acts in the same way there is no Gravity Beast which acts to apply the gravitational theories.

Jonathan MS Pearce said...

Tyro

you are presenting loads of things as if they are fact. they are hypotheses.

the zero-energy universe is a hypothesis that relies upon the copenhagen interpretation, that, though i am no expert, i don't hold to. i prefer the bohm interpretation. alos it requires a perfectly flat universe etc etc.

softpedia says: "Similarly, the flat universe has a zero energy and expands until it stops at some (yet to calculate) point. Einstein's theory indicates that the universe's curvature is associated with the gravitational energy of the objects it carries during its expansion. But if the universe is flat, then its energy is zero, so it could have been born from nothing. Recently, experts indicated that we do live in a flat universe, but dark energy is responsible for it, not dark matter, which means that the universe's fate is not determined by its geometry."

i am not saying i disagree with zero energy - i don't know enough about it, but there was and is still energy, positive and negative, though the sum may be zero.

rapid cooling still caused matter to be created from the energy / photons at the time. i still see the issue revolving around whether you believe the singularity happened as clasically thought - ex nihilo - infinite density, zero volume.

Adrian said...

Johnny,

Yes I am but it does have a lot of evidence supporting it and as your source indicated it is the accepted consensus. Based on observations, it appears that the universe is flat and yes, it does bring in interesting things like dark energy which is still a mystery. However the flatness itself seems supported and agreed upon meaning the energy of the universe is zero.

i am not saying i disagree with zero energy - i don't know enough about it, but there was and is still energy, positive and negative, though the sum may be zero.

If the question is how do we get a universe with all of this energy then "god" may be invited as a mechanism for violating the conservation of energy. However once we realize the energy of the universe is zero, then the question practically answers itself - no god is necessary because no external source of energy is needed. I'm not saying that we'd support a theory because it gets rid of God, but if the evidence shows there's no god necessary then why not single it out?

"Dark Matter, Dark Energy" by Sean Carroll is good, as is "The Elegant Universe" by Brian Greene. The concepts behind the theories aren't difficult but they aren't intuitive and a book helps.

i still see the issue revolving around whether you believe the singularity happened as clasically thought - ex nihilo - infinite density, zero volume.

I would disagree with you there. To me, the biggest mystery is where all the matter came from and given the phrasing of the challenge, the apologist is clearly asking where all the stuff (matter) came from as well.

As well, by covering how matter arose, we see that every thing (matter) in our universe arose without a cause. That's a huge rhetorical point and I'm surprised and disappointed to hear you say it's not interesting or important.

Jonathan MS Pearce said...

i'm not sure i did say it was neither important nor interesting!

for the point of the essay, it is not essential to the point. i am personally happy that the universe COULD be causeless. however, i was picking craig up on using rules about what happened IN the system (based on GR) to derive what happened to the system (or where GR has broken down).

of course, a causeless universe breaks down the KCA theory too, but that was not my tack.

Adrian said...

Johnny,

i was picking craig up on using rules about what happened IN the system (based on GR) to derive what happened to the system (or where GR has broken down).

Don't take that crap!

You should know full well that he's only saying that because (1) has failed so spectacularly! Where was this complaint when this argument was first proposed? Where were the apologists who said "but wait, maybe we shouldn't extend our intuition of what happens in the universe to the universe itself?" Nowhere, that's where. Lets face it, they still do it and they still do it in this very argument!

It very explicitly tries to use our own observations an intuition about what happens in our everyday world and extend it to the origin of matter and the universe as a whole. As long as Craig or whomever says "anything which begins to exist has a cause", then you know they are going against this very rule they're chiding you on.

It's total crap. You know it, they know it and if you thump on it then your audience will know it. And when pt 1 is taken out and with you hammering out pt 2 then nothing is left.

*breathe*

But yeah, dishonesty and double standards in apologetics is totally cool with me. Doesn't bug me at all. Nope, not at all.

Jonathan MS Pearce said...

quite. breathe deeply. get that paper bag.

it'll be interesting to see where our cosmology goes, and what we will understand of our universe's origins. i am still dubious about true ex nihilo creation, and am much more comfortable with some kind of eternally bouncing universe. that was another point of the essay - don't put your eggs in one worldview basket, coz it'll only get thrown away in 10 years of cosmological research. abiogenesis is another really fascinating one.

i am going to keep an eye on zero-energy universes, for what it's worth.

although the issue i have is what is mentioned by krauss himself:
"The idea of a zero-energy universe, together with inflation, suggests that all one needs is just a tiny bit of energy to get the whole thing started (that is, a tiny volume of energy in which inflation can begin). The universe then experiences inflationary expansion, but without creating net energy.
What produced the energy before inflation? This is perhaps the ultimate question. As crazy as it might seem, the energy may have come out of nothing! The meaning of "nothing" is somewhat ambiguous here. It might be the vacuum in some pre-existing space and time, or it could be nothing at all - that is, all concepts of space and time were created with the universe itself."

Jonathan MS Pearce said...

another interesting idea about the causality with regards to god causing something to exist. there is an argument that some people have that would state that there is no causality between god, that exists (arguably!) and a universe that doesn't exist. ie, within logical statements, god cannot logically have a causal relationship with a not yet existing universe. it can be summed up as follows:
P1 - Nothing which exists can cause something which does not exist to begin existing
P2 - Given (1) anything which begins to exist was not caused to do so by something that exists
P3 - the universe began to exist
Given (2) and (3) the universe was not caused to exist by anything which exists
P4 - God caused the universe to exist
C - Given (4) and (5) God does not exist.

Now, there is lots to debate here (premise 3), but P1 is fascinating. How can you cause something to exist that does not exist - you cannot have a causal logical relationship with it. the above argument does give some difficulty for the theist, as seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD9MtIma5YU

it's good.

Anonymous said...

That essay was awesome, and so was that back and forth between you and Tyro.

Adrian said...

Johnny,

As you might guess, I have more than a few problems with this style of argument :)

As you so rightly pointed out, what the author of this argument imagined was the creation of an object was nothing more than the rearrangement of pre-existing atoms. When we push the argument into the sub-atomic realm to ask where matter comes from or into the cosmic to ask where the universe came from then our mundane hand-waving terms like "thing" need far more precision.

The big question is what a "thing" is. When an electron collides with a positron then two photons are created. They didn't exist before and then they did, so maybe that's a counter-example? Without knowing what a "thing" is, who can say if it's right or wrong, who can say what it really means at all?

Which brings up the obvious flaw. God is said to be "spirit" or some such other immaterial substance so depending what "thing" is, I imagine most Christians would say that this could at best show God is not a "thing", something they have been saying all along.

(Of course this leads to the reply that, according to the first formulation, things don't come from not-a-thing and since God is not-a-thing, then nothing can come from it. And so it goes, more silly language games that are only possible because no one knows what the hell anyone is saying.)

Jonathan MS Pearce said...

@Hez

thanks for the kind words. makes it all worthwhile.

@Tyro

did you watch that linked video? it really argues for that first premise, and makes some good points.

would not your 2 photons be a transformative coming into existence. e just attach the abstract label of photon o give it the impression of a real coming into existence.

when talking about god, it is generally accepted that god entered spacetime at the creation of the cosmos. he is definitely now a 'thing', otherwise he could not causally interact with the world. before that, well who knows?

although there are criticism of it just being merely language games, there is still an issue with the laws of causality. something to get my head round.

Adrian said...

would not your 2 photons be a transformative coming into existence. e just attach the abstract label of photon o give it the impression of a real coming into existence.

Whereas something like "radio", "chair" or "tree" is an abstract label we attach to a particular configuration of pre-existing components, photons, electrons and positrons are all elementary particles and are not composed of anything other than themselves. When a positron an electron collide, two elementary particles are gone and two completely different things (the photons) are created.

At the quantum level there are some qualities which are preserved (energy, charge, lepton number, etc) but unlike at a macro level where the molecules and material going in remain unchanged but are just placed in a new configuration, a process may destroy and create entirely new particles.

re abstract label of photon - I don't think so. Photons are as real as any other elementary particle. If I'm missing something, perhaps you can clarify.

Jonathan MS Pearce said...

depending on what theory you adhere to (string theory etc), the elementary particles would be the finite stuff of the universe. the way i understand it, photons fall under a transformative creation:
"An electron has a natural orbit that it occupies, but if you energize an atom you can move its electrons to higher orbitals. A photon of light is produced whenever an electron in a higher-than-normal orbit falls back to its normal orbit. During the fall from high-energy to normal-energy, the electron emits a photon -- a packet of energy -- with very specific characteristics. The photon has a frequency, or color, that exactly matches the distance the electron falls"

but truly fundamental particles, or strings in string theory would be the, obviously, fundamental stuff of the universe that is used to create all other things, which are therefore 'not created' in an ex nihilo, kalam sort of way.

Adrian said...

Johnny,

Your example of an electron emitting a photon as it drops to a lower energy orbital is perhaps even a better example than mine, thanks. The system started with one electron and a proton and ended with on electron, a proton and a photon. All of the quantum values are conserved but it isn't like an electron is composed of a bunch of photons and one just slipped out.

but truly fundamental particles, or strings in string theory would be the, obviously, fundamental stuff of the universe that is used to create all other things, which are therefore 'not created' in an ex nihilo, kalam sort of way.

I would caution against relying on string theory (or rather M Theory) just yet. It still a whole class of theories at best and has not made any qualitative predictions. It certainly has not passed any of the milestones we'd need to say it was even provisionally confirmed.

That said, you're right that string theory may help explain photon emission/absorption, however I was responding to your revision "P1 - Nothing which exists can cause something which does not exist to begin existing". Even under M Theory wouldn't photon emission be an example of how an electron caused a photon to exist through the mechanism of splitting? Superstrings are strange things and cannot exist in arbitrary configurations so it's not like cutting an actual piece of string where you can cut arbitrarily and just end up with two smaller pieces of string so it's not clear that this is merely a transformation. Then of course is the timing - electrons emit photons probabilistically and not as a result of some external (or internal since there is not internal!) interaction so the event itself was uncaused. The whole thing gets very confusing and our macro-level intuitions are of little use.

Adrian said...

Let me try to wrap what I'm saying lest we drift even further down a rabbit hole.

The classical statement of Kalam is, on the surface, wrong on its points and possibly backwards, we both agree. I am arguing that it was devised in a world of classical mechanics and is meaningless garbage in a quantum world because we can't tell what the hell any of the words mean. A critic can point this out and an honest apologist (or anyone who proposes any variation) needs to be far more rigorous in their definitions. "Thing" and even "cause" and "create" are so loose and ill-defined as to deserve scorn and ridicule as transparent attempts to hand-wave through an argument.

Anyone - apologist, sceptic, scientist, agnostic - who wishes to understand the origins of matter and our universe and the role of causality needs to be very precise, far far more precise than anyone here has been and that includes me.

We haven't even begun to explore the role of causality but that is another huge kettle of rotting fish. How can we tell if something "caused" another to exist? What would it look like on the subatomic level? How would we know if there was no cause? Remember that particles do not have fixed positions so any discussion of interactions or proximity quickly become very complex. Particles also lack intent and our theories are purely descriptive despite all the creeping anthropomorphic language. If the theory states that there is no external agent and no internal cause and all attempts to falsify it have failed, do we say it is uncaused? What if experiments tested the fact there was no cause were confirmed (and yes, this has happened - see Bell's Inequality for a start)?

I tried to argue that Kalam is so vague that it can easily be interpreted to mean the exact opposite. And because it's so vague I gave a shot at shooting down the counter-Kalam as well. For any future formulation, an honest presenter should specify what a "thing" is (electrons, protons and neutrons only, everything with mass, all sub-atomic particles or something else entirely?) and preferably not use the word "thing" at all, what a "cause" is with some precision, and present some evidence in the form of supplemental writing on the origin of matter and its behaviour today and how this supports with his theory. Without this, we can only ask "what would people 200 years say about this". Our view of nature has changed fundamentally and if truth and knowledge is our goal, we must learn and adapt lest we appear fools.

Yes fellow children, this means that important questions like the existence or non-existence of god (and corollaries like whether 100 years of cosmology can be thrown into the trash) can no longer be presented as a three-line syllogism. Awww.

Jonathan MS Pearce said...

Bugger, I just wrote a massive post and it got lost as my chrome went awol.

Right, what did I say? Broadly, I agree with most of what you say. I think we are in danger of anthropomorphising too much of the physical world around us. There is mileage in looking at the philosophy of science with regard to the ontology of physical laws and the fact that they are descriptive as opposed to prescriptive.

With regards to the elementary particle subject, the world, to me, is made up of a) elementary particles / matter / energy, and b) things made out of the elementary particles. WRT the photon situation, they depend upon the electron in such distinct ways that it seems that they undergo a transformative creation to become photons. Without the electrons, there ain’t no photons (in this way) That said, the real debate is where truly elementary particles come from. I would posit (very simplistically indeed) that there is a finite amount of elementary stuff, from which everything else is created in some way. However, we know not nearly enough about the subatomic world to be able to make concrete assertions. I favour the idea that the universe has its finite elementary matter, which disperses from the big bang, and then recombines in a big bounce, and so on ad infinitum. This gets around the whole notion of ex nihilo creation which defies all sorts of norms.

You are right, m-theory and many other notions are in their infancy, and cannot be relied upon, and so making assertions about ex nihilo possibilities is a risky business. In fact, hanging your worldview on the coat hook of cosmology is an altogether premature thing.

What the essay set out to state is as follows:

1) the KCA is debatable in its opening 2 premises.
2) Time is nuts and probably deterministic
3) The big bang is not set in stone, and is open for debate (big bounce, singularity etc)
4) Cosmology is too young and unknown to rest a worldview on with any certainty


You are right, the language of these ideas is a tricky business. Oh, and kalam schmalam (in my most scholarly opinion).

Breckmin said...

"However, just because abstract ideas (in Craig’s view) come into existence and require causes, it does not follow that the universe (a dense bundle of matter and energy at the singularity) came into existence and required a cause. This is analogous to saying that plants need roots to gather nutrients and, as such, all living things need roots to gather nutrients. Therefore, animals need roots to gather nutrients. This clearly does not follow logically."

A cause for origin, however, is NOT the same thing as how living systems acquire nutrients for themselves. This example is incongruous to Craig's assertion regarding big bang. As much as I may disagree with Craig's presentation of the KCA, I can still identify where your example is not tantamount a cause for actuality of existence of matter or ideas.

Breckmin said...

"it is still incoherent that God could produce anything ex nihilo. There is something inherently, and intuitively problematic about the whole process of creation ex nihilo that I find hard to swallow"

It is philosophically problematic with "ex nihilo nihil fit" and the idea that nothing comes from nothing and even nothing is still "something."

Not every Christian agrees with the nomenclature of creation ex nihilo. Creation ex Deo is better understood as "ex infinitus ordo quod potentia."

An infinite 3 dimensional existence that is non-effectual until finite existence experiences motion is quite different than Craig's model. At creation...matter, energy, finite spiritual existence, etc. possibly enter (come into existence) into God's infinite domain (but even this can NOT be isolated at infinite 3 dimensional existence).

Breckmin said...

"infers that the universe has been fine-tuned for life by a Creator. It is true that there are many physicists, such as Paul Davies, who believe that the incredibly delicate balance of physical constants do indeed point to fine-tuning for life, and even for the existence of matter at all."

hello....wake up and smell the reality of precisions with respect to natural laws....

"The argument, though, is not so simple. It can be argued that the probability of a non-divinely created universe is 100%."

but you have to ASSUME that such a thing is actually POSSIBLE. It is utter nonsense to start with the assumption that there is no Fine Tuner and no Creator to prove that there is no Fine Tuner or no Creator.

"If one assumes that there is no God, and we do have life,"

but we wouldn't have such life if information for such life requires Intelligence so this is in your face circular reasoning with NO valid justification for concluding that there is no Creator.

"then the probability of life in the universe is 1. As Victor Stenger, American particle physicist, points out:

… we can empirically estimate the probability that a universe will have life. We know of one universe, and that universe has life, so the "measured" probability is 100 percent,"

Yes.. this is real brain power at work. It reminds of an author debating on the radio once who said "we know abiogenesis happened because we are here..."

No better example of circular reasoning than what we see in this ridiculous assertions.

Bad assumptions = Bad (ridiculous) conclusions

Breckmin said...

"if creation out of nothing (ex nihilo) is beyond human understanding, then the hypothesis that it occurred cannot explain anything.....
It is useless to reply to this conclusion by saying that the creation hypothesis may be intelligible to "higher beings" than ourselves, if there are such. After all, it is being offered to us as a causal explanation!"

The problem is that this "ignores" evidence FOR agnostic theism and special creation which does NOT depend on creation ex nihilo. The fine tuning of the universe, for example, does NOT depend on creation ex nihilo any more than the creation of life or the origin of templates of information.

"might be one of an infinite number of universes, with different physical laws. Given an infinite number of universes, it then becomes likely that there will be (at least) one bearing life-permitting physical constants."

You are assuming that such a thing as alternative universes (other than THIS observed reality) are even possible. You are employing circular reasoning to ASSUME that such a thing as possible universes is actually even "possible."

Romans 1:22 is blantantly obvious.

Breckmin said...

if the universe was fine-tuned for life, especially if humans were the apex of creation, then it seems irrational that we are living on a knife-edge, that life seems to be so unlikely, and conditions so inhospitable, that our very existence hangs in the balance."

Unless we live in an infinite 3 dimensional existence by which there will ALWAYS be an infinite area that is unsuitable for carbon-based life. The fact that we are fragile is a demonstration to us of our logical weakness. It should bring us to a greater degree of logical humility before our Creator (who is concluded based on such Fine Tuning, and logical conclusions regarding information, mechanical systems and IF-THEN algorithmic programming based on our uniform and repeated experience).

"We are one big meteorite away from lights out."

assumptions + observation = conclusion

One could easily conclude that Something has been protecting us from such distruction. It all depends on your basic assumptions that you start with (how you interpret the universe).

This, then, does not make a finely-tuned universe by God a likely scenario."

How in the name of all that is reasonable do you assess likelihood and probability here? Where is the mathematical equation for this? That we are surrounded by an infinite amount of danger should fully demonstrate the utter LACK of our probability of ever existing without Intelligent causation and protection.

"If it is a fine-tuned universe, then with common understandings of God, one would expect it to be the best possible universe."

If it is a temporary creation dealing with the REAL problem of evil and how choice is a danger to us (because of our potential to create evil against of Holy Creator with our choices - that will eternally taint us), then one could still conclude it is perfectly the best universe for the present state of humankind - even if there are things in the creation which are logically 'cursed' due TO the evil that humankind has created (with their choices).

If you ignore the moral implications of right and wrong here..and the fact that we go against our own consciences with our behavior... then nothing will make sense to you.

Perhaps we are not answering the correct questions because we are not starting with the logic that the Creator would be PERFECT and we are clearly NOT. Question everyting.

Choice and the reality of disobedience brings a completely different dynamic to the universe.

Jonathan MS Pearce said...

@breckmin

touched a nerve!

"A cause for origin, however, is NOT the same thing as how living systems acquire nutrients for themselves. This example is incongruous to Craig's assertion regarding big bang."

This was an analogy to show the logical parallels. it would probably be more obvious if i presented it in letters. don't concentrate on the content of the analogy, but the logic. you have not shown how the logic is dissimilar.


"Not every Christian agrees with the nomenclature of creation ex nihilo. Creation ex Deo is better understood as "ex infinitus ordo quod potentia."

yes, people like tabor talk about a reinterpretation of genesis, whereby god is reforming that which already exists. to me, this is more logically coherent an interpretation of the bible.

"hello....wake up and smell the reality of precisions with respect to natural laws...."

er, not sure what you are jumping around at here, i am stating both sides of the argument.

"but you have to ASSUME that such a thing is actually POSSIBLE."

yes i do, as you assume it isn't, no doubt.

"but we wouldn't have such life if information for such life requires Intelligence so this is in your face circular reasoning with NO valid justification for concluding that there is no Creator."

in my face??!!! that's hilarious, and confrontational for someone that has never talked to me before. it contains a massive assumption in its premise, and succeeds in circular reasoning in the same sentence as accusing me of such.

Jonathan MS Pearce said...

@ Breckmin

as for evidence for multiverses, there is growing evidence theoretical and otherwise as mentioned in the essay. for example, http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/03/100322-dark-flow-matter-outside-universe-multiverse/
or for theoretical:
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0712/0712.2454v1.pdf

so on and so forth.

"One could easily conclude that Something has been protecting us from such distruction. It all depends on your basic assumptions that you start with (how you interpret the universe)."

this and your other points are weak. since 2/3 of all foetuses perish in the womb, then god permissively wills that evil. plus tsunami, plus earthquakes plus plus. god has NOT protected us from these. we live on a knife-edge - not just for the whole species, but for large swathes easily wiped out by the next disease or natural disaster.

"That we are surrounded by an infinite amount of danger should fully demonstrate the utter LACK of our probability of ever existing without Intelligent causation and protection."

not at all, given the billions of galaxies out there. you are trying to have your cake and eat it at every conceivable moment!

as for your theodicy, goodness where to start? bizarre and totally unevidenced or even revealed by god. god should not need you to justify all the evil in the world and for you to claim we live in the maximally perfect universe. he should damned well come down and tell us himself and stop all this second guessing. your theodicy is totally different from the next theist.