tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post114534071267015276..comments2024-03-25T17:35:02.238-04:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: The Bible Not Fit For Today (II)Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger62125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-78098940243465921022007-03-08T06:18:00.000-05:002007-03-08T06:18:00.000-05:00I hate to ask this, since right now it seems to su...I hate to ask this, since right now it seems to support the Christian side of things (forgive me if this has already been addressed, since I haven't read each and every post)<BR/><BR/>I am agnostic, and pretty much agree with the anti-religious sentiment in this blog, I am just curious - I can't imagine any way to completely eliminate human perception from any study, or experiment. Since that is the case, isn't all truth subjective? Just curious if there is an answer to this, as it seems to be the main reason to me that there isn't a slam dunk for either side.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1145788214866260032006-04-23T06:30:00.000-04:002006-04-23T06:30:00.000-04:00You dismiss miricle stories as lies and fairy tale...You dismiss miricle stories as lies and fairy tales yet readily seem to believe these tales that describe a horrid vengeful, rotten, nasty God. While I'm not saying anything about wether or not those things happened, although I don't recall a rape threatning story, lets not ask for any bad consequences for anything we do, please don't punish me for wrong doings. Maybe those are exagerated stories also, seems pretty fair to me to say that since the miricles and other stories, creation are dismissed as only stories or exageration.<BR/>Now to me you are at some sort of presupposition, if there is no God there is plenty of evidence against his existance, if there is a God there is plenty of evidence to support his existance. A whole universe as far as the hubble can see full of evidence. As for the rest you have to ask yourself why are we here? What is the purpose of our existance? If we have a purpose for our existance then where does it lead us? Is the hell spoken of a place where those who reside there lament not having listened to Christ and learned of Gods plans for us then reject those teachings then spend an eternity wishing they hadn't? Seems to me we can have hell on earth, I certainly went through that with the passing of my father and then later older sister, and then worse of all divorce from lucifers sister(kidding). So maybe the hell spoken of is not always a particular place but a state of existance? You certainly describe what would seem like a personal hell to me while deconverting. My particular faith is hammered pretty hard by evangelical faith and according to them I will join you in hell, so I guess at least we'll have a few things to talk about there eh?<BR/><BR/>"The test is for those who are brave enough to stand against any "god" who would do such things and who leaves no evidence of his existence in the face of eternal torment in hell. Those who would refuse to serve a god (or believe he existed) would prove that they were more moral than anyone who would follow such a god."<BR/>If that makes you feel brave as you say I wish you luck but if your wrong here what would be the eternal cost of that mistake? If Christ attoned for our sins then we can obtain redemption from them through him. If we don't repent we pay the price ourselves for our own sins, which made Christ, fathered by diety with a mortal mother, the greatest of all as he says bleed from every pore and beg for the cup to be passed from him before he went through the suffering for our sins. If that was his reaction knowing full well what he was doing and what it was going to be like then I don't want to pay the price for my sins. While I don't understand exactly what that will entail, he did and tried to find a way around it even knowing there wasn't any. I realize all this is based on what a person believes but if I'm right it would really suck to be on the wrong end of that. I would rather err on the side of following Christ and find it was wrong than the other scenario. If you're right and there is no God then all anyone does won't make any difference in the end, be that OJ simpson, Billy Graham, Sadam, Bin Laden, Oral Roberts, Joseph Smith, Moses, Paul, Cain, just picking a few extremes. If I'm right and there is a God then everything we do will make a difference in the end. While I don't believe you guys are bad people in any way at all and I truely believe you are living great productive lives full of happiness for yourselves, I want all that good going to something in the end. If I do good like you and in the end there is no God then we'll be on the same page anyway right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1145742367872967022006-04-22T17:46:00.000-04:002006-04-22T17:46:00.000-04:00Rich,Same premise, different scenario.Lets just sa...Rich,<BR/><BR/>Same premise, different scenario.<BR/><BR/><I>Lets just say we all lived with God prior to life on this earth. In that existance we were spirit children of God and he wanted us to become like him, a perfected being with flesh and bone. So he devised a plan for us to do just that. We were to come to earth and not be in his presence. He could then test our loyalty to him by</I><BR/><BR/>making up religions in which he is said to do things like dash infants against stones, order armies to kill babies and animals, condoning slavery, threatening rape for disobedience, etc. Also, this god would give us great ability to discover and answer many things, but leave no evidence of his existence.<BR/><BR/>The test is for those who are brave enough to stand against any "god" who would do such things and who leaves no evidence of his existence in the face of eternal torment in hell. Those who would refuse to serve a god (or believe he existed) would prove that they were more moral than anyone who would follow such a god. <BR/><BR/>That seems a better test than yours.<BR/><BR/>Back into retirement for me.exbelieverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04821290397922309515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1145721620225837332006-04-22T12:00:00.000-04:002006-04-22T12:00:00.000-04:00Bro Danni"Well, considering God must've made a uni...Bro Danni<BR/>"Well, considering God must've made a universe before becoming "flesh and bone", aren't you getting your chronology a little off? IOW, God only recently supposedly became flesh and bone, whereas the universe, and the precursors to people within it, go back much further."<BR/>Not when considering God created the universe. I missed where God recently got his flesh and bone body, unless you are refering to Christ? <BR/><BR/>..kind of a dumb story. Let's go back to that "we're in perfection with God," part, and think, "why would God screw all that up?"<BR/>We didn't have a body as we were spirits. we needed this life to gain a body. The paradise isn't screwed up as you say its still there waiting for our return.<BR/><BR/>Will we do the same in heaven if we should return there? Is our identity and freedom taken away once we return?<BR/>I suppose it could happen I can't answer that for sure but since it apparently happened once it could probably happen again.<BR/><BR/>And why do we need some person to be our intermediate?<BR/>Christ had his twelve apostles with while he was on the earth and they were asked to spread his gospel to the world. He organized a church and asked that they convert people to that church. We need certain things to be able to return to their presence on being babtism for the remission of sins. Christ was babtized even though he was without sin, why? To be our example in all things. We still need a prophet and apostles, ect.. today just as we did then for an organized religion to help everyone we can return to live with God.<BR/><BR/>How am I to blame for something I never set in motion?<BR/>I never said you personally were to blame for anything and please don't take it as such. Are you implying that God should never allow anyone to suffer at all? What part is he personally responible for? Just because he created the universe he is now responsible for all that is bad? I'm not sure what you are asking here.<BR/><BR/>I didn't get to finish with the last post yet so I will back up a little too.<BR/><BR/>Hmmm. Interesting opinion, but religious adherents of each of those would love to sit you down and point out the differences, I'm sure. Not that it matters to me, since I discount all gods.<BR/>I didn't say there weren't differeces in how people percieve God because there are hundreds, but regaurdless of those differences they are the same person.<BR/><BR/>Why is it no surprise? The 3 blind men in a room with an elephant analogy? You know where that breaks down? The elephant can't talk, but God can, and supposedly does, and contradicts itself. Indeed, God may exist, my friend, but if It does, It doesn't care to give you a few hints as you blindly grope and guess, "snake! [trunk] wall! [broadside] tree! [leg]"<BR/>Its no surprise because even when God does speak not every one listens. I'm not saying its an easy task either and certainly it doesn't help with all the contradictions that seem to abound.<BR/><BR/>No, my friend, we don't ask for much. A believable God, with a reliable message and way of knowing It.<BR/>Well its there you just have to find it. We are back to a living prophet now who could maybe help shead light what God wants us to do. He has consistantly spoken to prophets throughout history and asked us to read about their teachings and follow, it still continues today sir with a living prophet who can talk face to face with God. His gospel has been given to us to follow and he has set up his church to help us along with a prophet at the head. Could I be right? I think so and I try my best to follow but yet I still struggle continually.<BR/><BR/>I said, sure, you don't have to, but what did you stop by for?<BR/>Actually I hit this site from a link on another blog BABlog to be exact as your site had a story that used a couple of his blog entries. I started readin more because I am always curious about others beliefs. I chose to try and answer some questions as well as pose some of my own and here we are<BR/><BR/>Ok. I would bet it's because, even though the Bible records such things do/can/have happened, and even though the Bible says that God is no respecter of persons, the Bible is wrong and God doesn't show up because God doesn't exist.<BR/>That could be of coarse but it also could be that he expects us to follow him in faith and not see him as this would change our free will to some extent, much like how we act when a boss is present as to when he isn't. Not that everyone has that problem but most do.<BR/><BR/>While I understand, I have to ask you to look at this objectively -- if everyone asked God the same question, and had different "feelings", what would we conclude?<BR/>I should expound a little and say that we study something out and come to a conclusion then ask if we have reach the right conclusion. That way there us yes or no<BR/><BR/>And tell me if I ought to try to be wise, seek wisdom, and think wisdom is a good thing, or not? Eccl 2:26 suggests wisdom is a gift that God gives, which the Reformed/Calvinists aboard this merry pirate ship immediately nod and bob along with. Could wisdom lead me to pride? Does knowledge puff up [1 Cor 8:1-3]?<BR/>Prov.10:14<BR/>Prov.19:20<BR/>Dan.12:3<BR/>2Tim.3:15<BR/>As is always how you gain wisdom and what you use if for matter.<BR/><BR/>And a promise is made that whatever is asked in Christ's name, Christ will do, right? Want to go to bat for how many people have died uttering that very prayer?<BR/>Qualify whatever? What do you mean go to bat for? Sure people have died for christ. How does this make God non existant or non caring? You are back at the act of a person, while God can and sometimes does sove people from death that doesn't mean everyone does or else he doesn't care about us. If someone puts a gun to my head and says see if your God can save you and hten pulls the trigger, chances are I'm dead. Is that Gods fault? I mean in that itme I asked him to save me and did it in christs name so he should save me right? My best friend tried to commit suicide at least 20 times including the last time when he actually pulled the trigger on a shotgun to his head, the gun misfired. Sure the story has every evidence that something went wrong with the gun but you can't say for sure that he didn't have an intervention. I'm just using an example here I am not saying I know God intervined but at the same time he certainly could have. I've shot that gun with him a few times and it works pretty good.<BR/><BR/>As a human being, maybe. As a selfish and limited human being. But if you are a perfect and all-good God...then...it's about the kid's needs, right, and not your own ego or self-importance?<BR/>I disagree here, you seem to mean that we should have our needs be met regaurdless of our thankfulness or demeaner in asking. God is bound to give us blessings when we do what he asks of us but when we choose to disobey we have no such promise.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1145710635704471132006-04-22T08:57:00.000-04:002006-04-22T08:57:00.000-04:00Rich,There are a great many things that Are in the...Rich,<BR/><B>There are a great many things that Are in the bible that are really confusing which is why I don't put my whole trust in it.</B><BR/>That's pretty wise of you.<BR/><BR/><B>Lets just say we all lived with God prior to life on this earth. In that existance we were spirit children of God and he wanted us to become like him, a perfected being with flesh and bone. So he devised a plan for us to do just that.</B><BR/>Well, considering God must've made a universe before becoming "flesh and bone", aren't you getting your chronology a little off? IOW, God only recently <I>supposedly became flesh and bone</I>, whereas the universe, and the precursors to people within it, go back much further.<BR/><BR/><B>He could then test our loyalty to him by giving us guidlines to live by and a means to know of his will and plans for our future with him.</B><BR/>So let me get this straight -- we're in a perfect paradise of shimmery apparitions glowing and bouncing and God decides to screw it up by creating matter, knowing beforehand we're going to sin, which presupposes that God creates a "free will" [or the equivalent of moral agency] and sets out what "sin" is, and requires "blood" for the "remission of sin", painting the Big Guy into another corner, so that now this God has to provide perfect blood (not just any blood) to atone/redeem...<BR/><BR/>...kind of a dumb story. Let's go back to that "we're in perfection with God," part, and think, "why would God screw all that up?"<BR/><BR/><B>Scince we were to come here and not be able to see, walk, and talk with God he knew we would make mistakes. </B><BR/>WHy is the "spirit realm" perfect, but the "physical realm" had to be screwed up? After all, angels fell from God's own presence. Will we do the same in heaven if we should return there? Is our identity and freedom taken away once we return?<BR/><BR/><B>The heaven/hell teachings throughout christianity I don't believe to be<BR/>completely accurate.</B><BR/>That's pretty wise of you. You ought to check out the origin of the word "hell" and how the Greek conceived of an aftelife, versus how the Jews did [and still do], and you'll find a perversion of original doctrine.<BR/><BR/><B>That prophet would recieve revelation for that church as a whole to guide us towards our goal of returning to live with God.</B><BR/>And why do we need some person to be our intermediate?<BR/><BR/><B>How much of that suffering is at the hands of mankind? answer is all of it, God is not to blame for this.</B><BR/>Wait. You said earlier we were in this paradise with God, but <I>God was the one who decided to create the universe and all that would follow</I><BR/><BR/>How am I to blame for something I never set in motion?<BR/><BR/><B>Will my telling you why you should believe matter to you?</B><BR/>I don't know that you've yet done that. You've told me what <I>you believe</I>, but I'm not sure you justified the speculations and opinions, eg being in heaven with God and God wanting to test our "loyalty" [as if there was anything else to pledge allegiance <I>to</I>]<BR/><BR/><B>I watched my dad die in front of my eyes when I was 15, not easy on anyone and it sure brings alot of doubt and emotion to anyone who experiences such things. It ain't easy to get over some things.</B><BR/>I'm sorry, and I'm sure you're right that it isn't. A theist I respect very much, Swinburne, admits that the most convincing argument for God's nonexistence is the problem of evil. The presups we spend a lot of time arguing with try to make the problem go away by telling us we cannot determine what evil is [of course, this is in direct contradiction to their own Bible, cf Gen 3 -- man acquires "the knowledge of good and evil"]nsflhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129382545589470620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1145702329693127002006-04-22T06:38:00.000-04:002006-04-22T06:38:00.000-04:00I should start by saying I do agree with the scien...I should start by saying I do agree with the science findings about our universe, I myself find no conflicts with my beliefs and science. You can relate findings of the singularity and it is an event that most certainly happened. I never just throw my hands in the air and say well God did it. Although finding out how something happened doesn't necessarily take away Gods hand in the event. I think we are suppose to learn all we can. I don't stop at "God did it" I want to know how. I believe string thoery is starting to pick up the slack so to speak for a new model. I'm no scientist but I try to keep on top of all I can to better understand what is seen physically around us. While God is All powerful I still believe he would function within the laws of the universe. I think the big quetion to answer is why are we here? There are a great many things that Are in the bible that are really confusing which is why I don't put my whole trust in it. It has been through too many hands of men who could have, and probably did, change alot and leave out alot that they pressumed to not be important. If the creation of the universe took place over 13 billion years and was covered in a few verses i suspect alot is missing. For religious purposes the fact that God created everything is sufficiant to begin with and you don't need to know how it happened to be saved. That doesn't mean we should not learn about it though.Is that enough circles? Sorry about the wandering. On to why are we here.<BR/>Lets just say we all lived with God prior to life on this earth. In that existance we were spirit children of God and he wanted us to become like him, a perfected being with flesh and bone. So he devised a plan for us to do just that. We were to come to earth and not be in his presence. He could then test our loyalty to him by giving us guidlines to live by and a means to know of his will and plans for our future with him. Scince we were to come here and not be able to see, walk, and talk with God he knew we would make mistakes. He wants all to return to him so he provided us with a savior that would conquer both Physical death(resurrection) and spritual death(attonement) to make it possible for us to return to his presence. The first death or physical death is the gift given to all regaurdless of what is done while here on earth. the second death or spiritual death can only be overcome by following Christs example and partaking of his attoning sacrifice. Just because a person doesn't believe in God or follow his teachings doesn't put him in hell, that takes an outright rebelion against God like cain. The heaven/hell teachings throughout christianity I don't believe to be <BR/>completely accurate. To say someone is going to hell for something is judging a person which we have no right to do. <BR/>How do we know what God wants us to do? He has always communicated through prophets to us and had one as the head of his church. In the time of christ he was the head of his own church with twelve apostles below him. The point I want to make here is that why would God change all of a sudden and not have a Prophet? Isn't he unchanging? So he should have a prophet at the head of his church here and now just like he always had before. That prophet would recieve revelation for that church as a whole to guide us towards our goal of returning to live with God. We individually can pray and recieve answers to guide us and help us along the way. If we can follow Christs example and be the best we can be then we can return to live with God after this life. I also believe that we will be with our friends and family that did the same. <BR/>It is very hard to look and see all the suffering and destruction in the world and see a loving caring God. How much of that suffering is at the hands of mankind? answer is all of it, God is not to blame for this. <BR/>I wasn't trying to offend anyone by calling someone "so called chistians" its just that some who claim to be christian sure don't act like it. I cetainly wasn't refering to you. Will my telling you why you should believe matter to you? Not sure thats up to you, you've obviously been through plenty and have come to this point and I may never be able to give you enough reasons to change your mind but I am explain ing my reasons for believing and yes they are good enough for me and make me plenty happy. I watched my dad die in front of my eyes when I was 15, not easy on anyone and it sure brings alot of doubt and emotion to anyone who experiences such things. It ain't easy to get over some things. <BR/>I will finish answering in a minute I am at work and I need to do a few things.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1145546249549596352006-04-20T11:17:00.000-04:002006-04-20T11:17:00.000-04:00DP,The time I've spent on blogging has caught up w...DP,<BR/><BR/>The time I've spent on blogging has caught up with me so I must be brief and then retire for a while.<BR/><BR/><I>I'd like to ask you again about the reason(s) for your "deconversion".</I><BR/><BR/>David I can't really point to any one event. This may sound pretentious, but my deconversion can best be thought of in Kuhnsian terms.<BR/><BR/>I was a very conservative Christian. I noticed anomalies that were not explained in my conservative worldview. Eventually, the anomalies outnumbered that which was explained by my worldview. I found that mainstream Evangelicalism explained everything I believed before and better handled the anomalies. Soon, I noticed more anomalies. The anomalies outnumbered what was explained by Evangelicalism. I shifted paradigms to liberal Christianity. I noticed more anomalies. <BR/><BR/>At this point in my life, physicalism best explains what I see in the world and accounts for most of the anomalies. I'm not as solidly physicalist as I was Christian (I'm a lot more skeptical of the idea that any one worldview explains everything), but, for now, it explains the world better than any other worldview that I know about.<BR/><BR/>I'm sure this isn't what you were looking for, but that's the best description I can give.exbelieverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04821290397922309515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1145545792257769402006-04-20T11:09:00.000-04:002006-04-20T11:09:00.000-04:00centuri0n,The time I've spent on blogging has caug...centuri0n,<BR/><BR/>The time I've spent on blogging has caught up with me so I must be brief and then retire for a while.<BR/><BR/>Nothing you said above makes me feel the need to do anything other than, again, point out the fact that whenever Christians give an "attribute" to god, they mean the word in a totally different way than it is used otherwise. This means that the term is not defined at all. "Good" is not "good" in a way that we can understand. "Merciful" is not merciful in a way that we can understand. Etc.<BR/><BR/><I>| By the way, would you be willing to <BR/>| justify the first premise of TAG for <BR/>| me? Or respond, in any way, to this <BR/>| post. It's getting lonely here. <BR/><BR/>It seems a little absurd to ignore my own statement that I would not argue TAG. Is there a reason that I must defend TAG? It’s Paul’s argument, and I’ll leave it to him to defend.</I><BR/><BR/>It seems a little absurd to say that I am "ignoring" your statement that you would not argue TAG when I made the statement you quoted above at 5:26 PM, April 17, 2006 and you made your statement that you "wouldn't argue TAG or Kalaam," at 5:00 PM, April 18, 2006.<BR/><BR/>Are you suggesting that I knew what you would say 23.5 hours later about TAG and I intentionally ignored that? I apologize, I guess, for "ignoring" you.exbelieverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04821290397922309515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1145538978681622632006-04-20T09:16:00.000-04:002006-04-20T09:16:00.000-04:00centuri0n:If you care to peruse, I dealt with the ...centuri0n:<BR/><BR/>If you care to peruse, I dealt with the concept of justice <A HREF="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2006/03/mercy-vs-justice.html" REL="nofollow">here</A> and the idea of love <A HREF="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2006/03/wwjd.html" REL="nofollow">here.</A> No reason to go over that again.<BR/><BR/>I define Justice in a way that is easily actionable, and demonstrable, and determinable. A difficulty the Christian cannot get around. You use the definition of “treating sin as sin and virtue as virtue.” Can you apply that to David’s Baby? What was the sin of the Baby, how was that sin to be treated, and why did it require 7 days for the treatment to take effect? What was the sin of David, how was that sin treated, and why did he receive mercy? <BR/><BR/>I did not follow your analogy of the speeding police car. The law allows police (in certain circumstances) to exceed the speed limit. The law does not allow civilians to do so. To give a policeperson a ticket for speeding within those circumstances would be unjust. To give a civilian a ticket for speeding is just. We read the law, apply it to the facts, and see what the result would be. How is that difficult to apply?<BR/><BR/>At least I can read the law, and see, “Aha. That is when the exception applies.” With your God, we have no clue what exceptions are there, when he is being just, when he is being merciful, what the law says, and how often the law can or did change. This is why God’s “justice” is nothing like our human idea of justice.<BR/><BR/>The Bible uses prophecy to validate its claims? So other Christian writings that also use prophecy (say 1 Clement) are also inspired? Where does the Bible claim validity through prophecy?DagoodShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04557451438888314932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1145538926213091802006-04-20T09:15:00.000-04:002006-04-20T09:15:00.000-04:00David Poehlein –You may have had faith in God, fir...David Poehlein –<BR/><BR/>You may have had faith in God, first, but no one has faith in a Man/God appearing in the First Century Palestine, being crucified and resurrected first and later finds out the facts. Those facts as to that particular God, always come before faith.<BR/><BR/>Is <I>Gone with the Wind</I> historically correct? It has the Battle of Atlanta, and people that certainly reasonably could have lived. Did the author think, “I will make it historically accurate, and then add untruths about Scarlet O’Hara and nobody will ever know?” Of course not. It is fiction, it is designed to be fiction, and it uses the Civil War as its backdrop.<BR/><BR/>But we can research and determine the author’s intention as to the fact it was fiction. We can’t do that with the authors of the New Testament. Was it fiction? Was it historical? Was it a combination? Was it apologetic writing to promulgate a particular brand of theism? We can review it, in light of how people wrote and believed at that time, what other writings looked like, where it conforms to other historical events, and where it does not. But in the end, there will always be a matter unknowing speculation. The arguments for it not being historically accurate are very convincing.<BR/><BR/>Many times, in having these discussions over the Bible, Christians respond with “Oh, so you think it is ALL made up” or “Oh, so you think the authors are lying.” Please, I beg you, stay away from dualistic dichotomies. That it must be “either…or.” Just because I do not hold to it as not being literal history, does <B>not</B> mandate that I must therefore fly to the other end fo the spectrum and hold to the whole thing being a pack of lies.<BR/><BR/>There are many, many, many places to fall in-between those, and you will find Biblical scholars landing in various places in that scale. Ask what events in the Gospel of Matthew are factual, or not, or unknown of 20 different scholars, and you will 20 different spots on the scale. It does not have to be deceit, the authors could have really believed what they were writing, and still be just as wrong. At the time, it would have been acceptable to add or subtract to a historical event, as the story warranted. The authors were using the writing style of the time.<BR/><BR/>Paul was clearly writing apologetic support for his new brand of theism. He would write in a bias fashion. Does that mean he was lying? Of course not, he thought he was right, so why bother writing about things he thought were incorrect!<BR/><BR/>The evidence convinces me, though, that the author of Mark was writing primarily fiction. It may have been based on a person that actually lived, and roughly framed about Him, but the literary style, the Elijah-Elisha cycle, the conformance to events in the Tanakh all appear to be tools of fiction.<BR/><BR/>I agree that witnesses will disagree. But what we have is the equivalent of one witness testifying that the room was lit by a candle, and another testifying that all the windows were open and gale-force winds were blowing the contents of the room about. Then all the apologists come out and attempt to rectify this with candles under glass, or winds that miss candles, or that the witnesses went into the rooms at different times, or (if all else fails) miraculous candles that do not blow out.<BR/><BR/>Yet these very same apologists scoff at such claims of other religions. What I see is a human mistake in the witnesses, human justification for that mistake, and nothing divine at all about resolving such difficulties.<BR/><BR/>Does the Bible say that Israel would be fought over for all of history? Has Israel been fought over for all of history? Again, you make positive assertions, and if I dare ask for a demonstration of this, you are caught in a quandary—if you provide it, then it is no longer faith-based, but proof-based. If you don’t, then you have no argument against anyone else saying that their faith says Israel will NOT be fought over for all of history.<BR/><BR/>No, David Poehlein, I think most of the contributors here most certainly feel that you believe what you are saying. You believe it with every ounce of your brain, and would gladly die for it, based on that belief. See the funny thing is—we did too at one point. We were willing, though, to look at the claims upon which our faith was based. And realized it was not solid ground, but a veneer, covering much greater problems.<BR/><BR/>And, no, I have no longing to know God. As people discuss, I certainly look at their proofs of their God concept, and research, and investigate and inspect, and discuss myself. But there is no God. Do you long to know Allah? Of course not. You believe that description of a God is inaccurate. Human made. There is no desire, because it is not real. Do you long to know the Mormon God? Again, not real to you, no desire.<BR/><BR/>I spent many years asking and begging to know more about God. The invitation always remains open. If he wants to know me, he knows where to find me. Instead, all I get are humans that tell me about their God, and how He can’t know me, because I am doing something wrong. Not enough faith. (Which he provides.) Not elect. (Which he provides.) I question too much with my intelligence. (Which he provides.) Somehow God does everything, in this concept, and I get the blame for not believing what other humans tell me. The same humans that tell me not to believe in other humans’ concepts of God.<BR/><BR/>Have a good few days off.DagoodShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04557451438888314932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1145529995479800592006-04-20T06:46:00.000-04:002006-04-20T06:46:00.000-04:00centuri0n,I'm not nitpicky about spelling.You pres...centuri0n,<BR/><BR/>I'm not nitpicky about spelling.<BR/><BR/>You presented a false dichotomy: the Bible was either/or regarding spirituality and the natural world.<BR/><BR/>Why could God not have added any one sentence, [the boiling water being but one of millions possible] considering the fact that it would've prevented so much pain and suffering and death, especially on the part of children? To be honest, I think you are smart enough to know that you presented a false dichotomy, but you did it anyway. The point is, God <I>didn't</I> restrict the Bible [granting your premise that God exists and inspired it] to information concerning a Savior.<BR/><BR/>Must I list thousands of inane dietary restriction laws, and miscellaneous other absurd items to prove my point? The reference you made to <A HREF="" REL="nofollow">Job 26:7</A> is mighty funny, considering the verses before and after, and the references to "stretching out" the sky -- which was called "the firmament" in the ancient cosmology. Do you really want to go there? Want to go into detail about the Hebrew words used, and the thousands of clear references (as here, in v.11) to "foundations" or "pillars" of the earth, and how it is "not moved, shaken, etc."? As I said, I'll answer this more in detail with a post on supposed Biblical "scientific foreknowledge" [lack thereof].<BR/><BR/>While science is <I>purposely restricted</I> to questions of natural philosophy, no such restriction exists upon the God you believe in. In fact, a God who cares about us would want to help us spiritually <B>and</B> physically, and you pretend to believe this yourself when you read about the healings and miracles done by God to alleviate pain and suffering [from Elijah with the Shummamite woman to Jesus to Peter and the mat-lain paralytic]...<BR/><BR/>You pretend that as a loving father, I cannot sit down with my child and explain how I am limited in money and must work, to spend hours away from them each day, but hug them and tell them if I only <I>could</I> stay home, that I would...<BR/><BR/>In this case, poor Sky Dad doesn't even apparently have the time to tell us this, and apparently Sky Dad's resources are finite and He can't stay home with His kids. He has a choice imposed on Him by lack of resources, like the father leaving for work...[eye roll] Tommykey already made this point.<BR/><BR/>Sorry, centuri0n, but I leave my words as they are -- your God's silence on how to prevent so much pain, suffering, and death, yet your God's choice to tell us how to influence goat heredity with sticks, and how to cleanse leprosy with bird blood, and how there are "four corners" of the earth [yep, if you quote the <I>one passage</I> that suggests the earth is a <B>circle</B>, I will cite the <I>dozens</I> quoting the earth as flat, you may just want to admit the poetic language here], somehow this was the "wisest and most loving choice" our Sky Dad could make?<BR/><BR/>...nah.nsflhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129382545589470620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1145486063042995492006-04-19T18:34:00.000-04:002006-04-19T18:34:00.000-04:00Just to be clear, I meant that the child's father ...Just to be clear, I meant that the child's father in my version of the analogy is either dead or just ran off somewhere and is not involved in any way in the child's life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1145485982818221872006-04-19T18:33:00.000-04:002006-04-19T18:33:00.000-04:00Centurion writes:"But that view of God is exactly ...Centurion writes:<BR/><BR/>"But that view of God is exactly like an infant’s view of his parents. Why does Daddy have to go to work – doesn’t he love me? If he loved me, he’d play with me right now. Any adult can recognize that the greater love is exhibited by the parent who goes out and serves the child’s greater needs over and above the child’s perception of its needs."<BR/><BR/>That analogy doesn't work Centurion. A child who has a father knows that who is father is. His or her father is a real, tangible person with whom the child can interact. A more correct analogy would be if a child did not have a father, but his mother hid this fact from him, telling the child "your father wants you to dress this way", or "your father does not want you to eat sugary foods" etc. The mother instills the belief in the child that he or she has a father in order for the mother to get the child to do what the mother wants.<BR/><BR/>And I look forward to you and Dave Pohlein responding to my post above wherein I ask on what basis I should even believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of the creator of the universe.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1145483442449535622006-04-19T17:50:00.000-04:002006-04-19T17:50:00.000-04:00One thing my bible doesn;t have is a spell-checker...One thing my bible doesn;t have is a spell-checker.<BR/><BR/>I wrote:<BR/><I>Science didn;t end slavery in the wets: Christianity did.</I><BR/><BR/>I ought to have written:<BR/><BR/><I>Science didn't end slavery in the West: Christianity did.</I><BR/><BR/>Thank you. I'm going to hand in my resignation now.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1145483330293230852006-04-19T17:48:00.000-04:002006-04-19T17:48:00.000-04:00BroDanny replied:| Are you just asking questions t...BroDanny replied:<BR/><BR/>| Are you just asking questions to hear <BR/>| yourself talk, or are you serious? <BR/><BR/>I’m serious. I just don’t take much of what has been said here seriously. When someone is willing to argue against God by saying he can’t imagine what a creator who starts with nothing and comes up with something has done or is doing, but is willing to assert that science is in search of a “better answer”, it’s hard to keep a straight face.<BR/><BR/>| So, in your opinion, has, say, <BR/>| "revealed truth from God" served us <BR/>| better in understanding the natural <BR/>| world than "discovering natural law <BR/>| through the toil and sweat of <BR/>| science"? Since science only attempts <BR/>| to answer questions about the natural, <BR/>| we should compare vis-a-vis, no? <BR/><BR/>In answer to your first question, I think revealed truth from God <I>has</I> served us better than science. For example, science didn’t invent modern republican democracy: theists (particularly Christian theists) did. Science didn;t end slavery in the wets: Christianity did. Science didn’t invent poverty relief on a global scale: Christian ethics did.<BR/><BR/>As for science only attempting to answer questions about the natural, why is science always invoked to subdue God? I think you’re fudging your on views pretty badly here, but I could be wrong about that. We’ll see how many times over the next month you invoke Modernist, scientific criteria to demand that God doesn’t exist, and then we can come back to your plea to be easy on science because of its scope.<BR/><BR/>| Perhaps if God had boomed down <BR/>| from Sinai, "Write THIS on those <BR/>| tablets: thou shalt boil thy water to <BR/>| kill parasites and micrboes, so that thy <BR/>| children do not die of dysentery and <BR/>| parasitic disease for the next <BR/>| thousands of years, thou shalt ferment <BR/>| alcohol via [X] method to use as a <BR/>| cleaning agent for your bodies and <BR/>| medical instruments to prevent <BR/>| disease, thou shalt..." <BR/><BR/>Wow! You didn't even make it one day! Let's see: if God had given us a <I>medical science text book</I> rather than 10 commendments or a savior from sin, <I>then</I> he’d be reputable in your book. But because God didn’t give us <I>science</I> at Sinai, He’s a flop.<BR/><BR/>What were you saying above about cutting science some slack? It seems to me that unless the metaphysical immediately renders the practical in the way you would grasp it immediately – that is, unless it renders science – it’s useless to you.<BR/><BR/>I suggest that if science cannot answer questions like “What is the greatest commandment?” it is second rate. And it cannot, so I think you had better use it for something else.<BR/><BR/>| Would it look like that? Maybe even: <BR/>| "Even though thou thinkest the earth <BR/>| is flat, it is an ellipsoidal solid <BR/>| orbiting the star that gives you light -- <BR/>| the sun, and there are no "monsters" <BR/>| out there, no "dragons", no "magic", <BR/>| no "psychic powers"...only I, God <BR/>| have those powers..." <BR/><BR/>You mean something like Job 26:7?<BR/><BR/>“He stretches out the north over the void and hangs the earth on nothing.”<BR/><BR/>| I mean, God could've neatly saved us <BR/>| millions of agonizing deaths via <BR/>| sepsis and parasitic infection and etc. <BR/>| and etc. and ad nauseum, but for <BR/>| whatever reason, not eating shellfish <BR/>| and rabbits was more important for <BR/>| us to "write down and keep the law" <BR/>| of... <BR/><BR/>What is interesting to think about is that God <I>intended</I> for all those deaths to happen. See: in the atheist box, God has the problem of having to be just like man, working inside a finite timeline for only immediately-tangible goals.<BR/><BR/>But that view of God is exactly like an infant’s view of his parents. <B>Why does Daddy have to go to work – doesn’t he love me? If he loved me, he’d play with me <I>right now.</I></B> Any adult can recognize that the greater love is exhibited by the parent who goes out and serves the child’s greater needs over and above the child’s perception of its needs.<BR/><BR/>But, of course, you guys are the ones who can’t decide if "better" and "greater" are valid conceptions of reality. Sure, they are for science, but for God it’s a little loopy to think that He could be a greater kind of provider than one who merely heals all the sick people right this very second.<BR/><BR/>| I will work on a post which will be an <BR/>| argument from God's silence <BR/>| concerning the working of the natural <BR/>| world, insofar as it would have <BR/>| prevented agony and pain, and yet <BR/>| God's divinely big flapper was shut <BR/>| concerning these "mysteries" and we <BR/>| had to wrestle them away from mute <BR/>| Nature through our own toil and <BR/>| efforts. Biblical scientific <BR/>| "foreknowledge" [lack thereof] is <BR/>| always a fun topic. Not likely to <BR/>| convert people either way, but just <BR/>| one more argument to pile up that <BR/>| God either does not exist or does not <BR/>| care about us.<BR/><BR/>In which case, I’m going home to play with my kids and never come back to my job. I am sure they would much rather that I play doll house and Legos with them right now -- perpetually right now, which is the only tangible moment -- than provide for greater needs which they either cannot conceive of or have wrongly prioritized. Thanks in advance for making me a better father.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1145480894593699712006-04-19T17:08:00.000-04:002006-04-19T17:08:00.000-04:00| I love that old reformed saying about | babies s...| I love that old reformed saying about <BR/>| babies sitting on father's lap slapping <BR/>| them in the face; we can only do the <BR/>| act because he is supporting us. Now <BR/>| the puppet playing arguing with the <BR/>| puppeteer. Good stuff. Would be a <BR/>| little better if you could give a reason <BR/>| or two to believe that a puppeteer <BR/>| existed, but I guess I'll settle for you <BR/>| non-answers. <BR/><BR/>Covered that. Sorry for the confusion.<BR/><BR/>| Definitions are meant to tell you <BR/>| about something you know nothing <BR/>| about. So let's look at yours and see <BR/>| what we discover about god. <BR/><BR/>I realize that your view is that God does not exist. We would agree that, for example, Zeus does not exist. But neither of us argue against Zeus by typing “zeus” as if that was making a point. I ask in this discussion that you accept the convention (not the philosophical fact, nor make a concession which is unreasonable) that “God” is a proper noun.<BR/><BR/>| creator--all creators I know create <BR/>| something from something else, right? <BR/><BR/>I would say that certainly all creators create something different out of something else. I’ll bet that I can come up with an example, however, that challenges what you mean by “something else”, and it will be one which involves you personally as a creator.<BR/><BR/>| Are there any other ex nihilo creators? <BR/>| No. So what you are saying is that this <BR/>| thing "God" is a creator, but unlike <BR/>| any other creator. So the adjective <BR/>| doesn't really mean any thing to me <BR/>| because I have no experience with ex <BR/>| nihilo "creators." <BR/><BR/>Well, since you bring it up, I think you have fudged the definition of ex nihilo here. What the Christian theist means when he says “ex nihilo” is that God, on the first day, didn’t create the heavens and the earth out of some other dilithium crystals and warp fields: he means that God spoke the universe into being. In that, there was something prior to God’s creation: God’s will, and God’s purpose. God substantiated His will and His purpose in creation.<BR/><BR/>Thus, I place my sock puppet on <I>my</I> hand so that the word “HANES” is in his mouth, and I make him say, “but cent: even if that’s what ex nihilo means, there are still no examples of ex nihilo creators since that moment. You’re talking about something that doesn’t have any referent in the universe because nothing else happens like that.”<BR/><BR/>Personally, I think that’s an interesting position for someone who thinks he is creating a meaningful stream of information which is being transmitted through the internet. I assume you’d agree that your objection exists, and that the reason it exists is because you made it, and that its existence is primarily propositional and not physical – you know, we can’t measure how many angstroms of logic you used, or how many grams of facts you employed.<BR/><BR/>You’re not God, and neither am I. But sending messages via the internet looks suspiciously like something coming from nothing but the will to express meaning or purpose. You might have a different take on that, and I’d be willing to review your response.<BR/><BR/>| sustainer of all things--sustains every <BR/>| atom in the universe? Is that what you <BR/>| mean? What do you mean that god is <BR/>| a sustainer? <BR/><BR/>I mean that everything depends upon Him intending it to still exist. You understood that when you thought I was calling you a puppet – I wonder how you have forgotten what it must mean so quickly?<BR/><BR/>| holy--literally "set apart." So God is <BR/>| unlike any thing that I have ever <BR/>| experienced. What is this supposed to <BR/>| tell me again? <BR/><BR/>The literal meaning of “holy” is certainly “set apart” – but apparently you missed the context of almost every use of that word in both Greek and Hebrew in the Bible: set apart <I>for a purpose</I>.<BR/><BR/>I’m not a fan of Rick Warren, but when in Lev 11:44 God says, “be Holy as I am Holy,” God is saying “be set apart for my purpose, as I have set myself apart for My own purpose.”<BR/><BR/>“Set apart from what?” asks the sock puppet. Why Hanes, my boy, set apart <I>from sin.</I><BR/><BR/>| just--but in a way that says it is okay <BR/>| to kill Amalikite infants because of <BR/>| sins committed 400 years earlier. Oh, <BR/>| just in a way unlike any justice I <BR/>| understand. <BR/><BR/>I submit to you (as an atheist) that you cannot define justice in a way which is actionable. That is to say, I’ll bet that any definition of justice you would advance as what you mean by the term does not give you any logical warrant to take action on “justice”.<BR/><BR/>However, the Christian view of Justice is <I>all actions which support the distinction between sin and virtue.</I> Justice treats sin like sin, and treats virtue like virtue.<BR/><BR/>| merciful--but can threaten to send an <BR/>| army to rape women if they disobey. <BR/>| but must have blood for offenses. So, <BR/>| you mean "merciful" in a way that is <BR/>| different than any other being. <BR/><BR/>The refrain “different than any other being” is an interesting one because you seem to think that nobody else has attributes that someone else might try to usurp. For example, nobody else can legally drive over the speed limit except police and rescue vehicles with their gum-ball machines running. So when you speed and you get a ticket, is it unjust and immoral, or is it human justice based on human authority and human law?<BR/><BR/>If the executors of human law can do such things and not be called unjust, I suggest to you that God himself has at least as much latitude in providing justice.<BR/><BR/>“But cent, you fool!” says the sock puppet, “EB is talking about <I>mercy</I> and not <I>justice.</I> You have changed the subject!”<BR/><BR/>My dear Hanes: the definition of “mercy” is “compassion or forbearance shown especially to an offender or to one subject to one's power”. There is no mercy without justice. EB sadly misses the point that mercy is not “giving everyone the same shake” but in fact, “showing patience and compassion when <I>none is warranted.”</I><BR/><BR/>| loving--but loving in a way that <BR/>| creates an eternal hell and laughs at <BR/>| the wicked who are sent there. Loving <BR/>| in a way that I don't understand. <BR/><BR/>I suggest you ask your wife how loving it would be for you to go and marry a second woman. She will probably not tell you, “Love isn’t love until you have given it to every single person you can possibly give it to.” In that, I’ll bet you do understand that Love must be exclusive in some way in order to be Love at all.<BR/><BR/>| revealed in creation--how again? <BR/><BR/>In the same way you are revealed in your posts to this blog.<BR/><BR/>| through special verbal revelation--the <BR/>| Qu'ran or the Bible or both? <BR/><BR/>Through the Bible, EB. I assume you have read the Qu’ran: can you tell me where in the Qu’ran it attempts to justify its claims to being revelation from God? There’s an interesting difference between the writings of Mohammed and the texts of the Bible: the latter provides prophecy as a basis for validating its claims, while the Qu’ran – like all other religious writings – doesn’t do anything to substantiate its origin.<BR/><BR/>| Jesus--the guy who through evil <BR/>| spirits into a bunch of pigs causing <BR/>| them to run off a cliff, causing their <BR/>| unnecessary deaths and a farmers <BR/>| financial loss? <BR/><BR/>Yes. That’s the one. Although I can’t seem to find any substantiation that the farmer suffered a financial loss. The herdsman was certainly scared, but which ancient record shows you that the farmer was never compensated?<BR/><BR/>It’s an interesting thing about evidence: once you set a standard, it becomes real obvious when you apply a second standard.<BR/><BR/>| Doesn't help much. <BR/><BR/>Most of your argument against the definition is that God is a different kind of “X” than I would mean if I called you “X”, but that’s not any more of an argument against God being any of there things than when I would admit that when I say I can play soccer, I mean that in a much different way than I would mean when I say that Mia Hamm can play soccer. If the new atheist position is that God can’t be God because we can’t really understand “better” or “greater” concepts, or because we can’t be one like that, I wonder why atheists like science so much?<BR/><BR/>See: Science is about having, as EB has said elsewhere, “a better explanation.” The presupposition of all modern science is that we have <I>one</I> explanation of the phenomenal world, but <I>a better explanation exists.</I> The argument EB has posted against God is that because God is described (for example) as the ontologically-first creator and there are none like Him, we ought not to believe in Him. I suggest to you that, in that case, you had better abandon science today. The answer you are seeking in science does not exist because there is no answer like it today. For example, there is no better explanation regarding the cure of AIDS than we have now (which is that it is incurable), so to image that one exists is foolishness.<BR/><BR/>Does that throw you off science? Then why should it throw you off God?<BR/><BR/>| By the way, would you be willing to <BR/>| justify the first premise of TAG for <BR/>| me? Or respond, in any way, to this <BR/>| post. It's getting lonely here. <BR/><BR/>It seems a little absurd to ignore my own statement that I would not argue TAG. Is there a reason that I must defend TAG? It’s Paul’s argument, and I’ll leave it to him to defend.FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1145479768890955502006-04-19T16:49:00.000-04:002006-04-19T16:49:00.000-04:00Lord Timothy said... "To which passage will you re...<I>Lord Timothy said... <BR/>"To which passage will you refer me in an effort to show me that life begins at conception?"<BR/><BR/>I don't think there is a verse that proves it does or doesn't but since we don't know when life begins isn't it our responsibility to look for the earliest possible landmark, and until we know for sure assume it begins there? The alternative of course is to commit what could very well be avoidable murder justified on ignorance alone.</I><BR/><BR/>Life does not begin or end at conception. It is just one stage in a long transition process (hint:the sperm is already alive).<BR/>Unfortunately, it seems like you are taking a "pro-life" stance, which is morally relativistic.<BR/>I can't intellectually justify that position but if you want to, that's your call.<BR/><BR/>For more info, please go here:<BR/>http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/03/black_white.phpAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1145477890402760052006-04-19T16:18:00.000-04:002006-04-19T16:18:00.000-04:00Rich,I'll grant you that statement but my question...Rich,<BR/><B>I'll grant you that statement but my question is does that mean it [matter/energy] has always existed? If not when did matter/energy come to be? It can have no beginning because it cannot be created? How can there be no beginning?</B><BR/>The universe we live in, and the matter we interact with, photons, baryons, hyperons, etc., originated from a mathematical "singularity" approximately 13.7 +/- 0.2 Bya. Hawking and others in the sixties extrapolated the equations of general relativity into this singularity [which is not philosophically justified] and determined that time and matter itself originated in the singularity. If the equations of general relativity hold (if there is no conflict with quantum gravity, which there is) past the Planck length, this would actually mean "something came from nothing". But they don't. The singularity is a mystery to us, because the very laws of physics we use to describe the universe <I>emerged from</I> the singularity, and not <I>vice versa</I>. Thus, it is ridiculous to posit that the 2nd law, or the 1st law, have to be applied to the singularity itself, when <I>de facto</I>, that is <I>why</I> it <B>is a singularity</B>. The singularity boggles the mind, and is called "unphysical" because we cannot physically describe it. Try. Try to describe mass without volume. <BR/><BR/>It is <B>here</B>, at the singularity, that we do not throw up our hands and say, "Therefore, God did it!" Instead, we say, "General relativity, and the Big Bang cosmology, breaks down at the quantum level, and thus is unreliable and we need a new model to describe this."<BR/><BR/>In the nineties, Shapiro showed that a naked singularity could exist inside each black hole (versus being masked by an event horizon). This would be akin to producing the same physical state of the pre-universe inside a collapsed star. What does this mean? Is it possible that all the matter in the star is now "gone"? Was the singularity that started our universe "from nothing"? <BR/><BR/>This is why, logically [in my opinion], I side with a cyclic universe. The common objections, based on the 2nd Law and the accelerating expansion, have already been dealt with by <A HREF="http://www.physics.princeton.edu/~steinh/dm2004.pdf" REL="nofollow">Turok and Steinhardt</A>, and those are ignorant extrapolations of general relativity to conditions under which they need not apply. Steinhardt also has a <A HREF="http://www.physics.princeton.edu/~steinh/Discover0204.pdf" REL="nofollow">preprint</A> of an article about the pre-BB worth reading.<BR/><BR/><B>I can creat light, a formn of energy by running electricity through a filament made of tungston. That is created energy isn't it?</B><BR/>No. That is the conversion of electrical energy (moving electrons through a "band gap") into light as the excited electrons in the higher-energy orbitals of W fall down to the ground state, and as they do, the energy lost is emitted as a photon (hv) with a frequency equivalent to somewhere between 200-700 nm in wavelength.<BR/><BR/><B>A fetus becomes another person at what point?</B><BR/>Good question. We all have different opinions about abortion. Mine is simply that late-term abortions are unnecessary [except in rape, incest, and medical cases] and come after the development of brain tissue which incontrovertibly senses pain. I object to them on that ground. Get an abortion while it is a clump, before it develops a brain, and to me, it is little different than destroying a rat fetus or yeast, or etc. But opinions are like...***holes, right?<BR/><BR/><B>So my argument remains intact even for an athiest site.</B><BR/>I never saw you make one. You just asked questions.<BR/><BR/><B>When does it cross from doing to your own body and doing to another body?</B> <BR/>The question is -- if it is inside your body, are you free to do with it as you wish, regardless of whether you recognize it as separate?<BR/><BR/><B>We certainly have labels for different stages of developement, but then comes the problem of when does it become another person?</B><BR/>Define person.<BR/><BR/><B>...it's all actually the same being.</B><BR/>Hmmm. Interesting opinion, but religious adherents of each of those would love to sit you down and point out the differences, I'm sure. Not that it matters to me, since I discount all gods.<BR/><BR/><B>That people have a different perception of this beings traits, desires, personality, ect... is no suprise at all but it is the same person.</B><BR/>Why is it no surprise? The 3 blind men in a room with an elephant analogy? You know where that breaks down? The elephant can't talk, but God can, and supposedly does, and contradicts itself. Indeed, God may exist, my friend, but if It does, It doesn't care to give you a few hints as you blindly grope and guess, "snake! [trunk] wall! [broadside] tree! [leg]"<BR/><BR/><B>You ask for the immpossible in proof for everything from the bible and gloat when no one can meet the task.</B><BR/>No, my friend, we don't ask for much. A believable God, with a reliable message and way of knowing It.<BR/><BR/><B>You want my reasons for believing? Fine.</B><BR/>You came here. I asked you if you had a specific point or question or argument. You even said:<BR/><B>don't have to prove to you or anyone that God does exsist, if you so choose to not believe so be it.</B><BR/><BR/>I said, sure, you don't have to, but what did you stop by for?<BR/><BR/><B>I was certainly brought up in a religion and what I learned from such was to question even what those church authorities said and take the matter to God through prayer.</B><BR/>Well I agree with that. In fact, that resonates quite strongly with me. i got very tired of other people telling me about a God who didn't seem to care enough to tell me Itself.<BR/><BR/><B>He didn't show up in my room and talk to me but then thats not how prayers are answered.</B><BR/>Ok. I would bet it's because, even though the Bible records such things do/can/have happened, and even though the Bible says that God is no respecter of persons, the Bible is wrong and God doesn't show up because God doesn't exist.<BR/><BR/><B>I first study the matter out in my mind and make a decision as to wether I accept what I am told or not</B><BR/>Good first step -- if God gave you a brain, you ought to use it.<BR/><BR/><B>then ask through a prayer with faith. I recieve an answer through feelings given to me.</B><BR/>While I understand, I have to ask you to look at this objectively -- if everyone asked God the same question, and had different "feelings", what would we conclude?<BR/><BR/><B>Of coarse this sounds whacked to not only athiest but also many so called Christians.</B><BR/>It's not very nice to call people "so-called" anything. if you come here with the presumption that "they were never Xians to begin with", I suggest you read <A HREF="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2006/04/to-david-and-all-others-who-so.html" REL="nofollow">this very recent post</A><BR/><BR/>We give you guys the credit for your faith. We don't say, "oh, you know there's no god, you're just deluding yourself to comfort your hopes and fears." To do so is a fallacy of presumption. If we don't give each other the right to present their position without defining the position for them [eg, you were never really a Xian to begin with], then this debate is futile.<BR/><BR/><B>So I have studied a graeat many things out and decided for myself if I believe them to be true or not and I then take the matter up between me and God an he lets me know through feelings if I am on the right track or not.</B><BR/>Well, if it's good enough for you, and you're happy, then great! If you want to tell me why I should believe, then fire away.<BR/><BR/><B>This will certainly not satisfy you quest for proof in the scientific world but it isn't about that anyway. Aas for bible scripture to back that up try James 1:5-6.</B><BR/>Ok, and juxtapose this against:<BR/>Eccl 1:18<BR/>Eccl 7:24-26<BR/>1 Cor 1:17-27<BR/>1 Cor 3:18-21<BR/>1 Cor 2:5-7<BR/>And tell me if I ought to try to be wise, seek wisdom, and think wisdom is a good thing, or not? Eccl 2:26 suggests wisdom is a gift that God gives, which the Reformed/Calvinists aboard this merry pirate ship immediately nod and bob along with. Could wisdom lead me to pride? Does knowledge puff up [1 Cor 8:1-3]?<BR/><BR/><B>Many times throughout the bible we are taught to pray, it means to ask God in Christs' name.</B><BR/>And a promise is made that whatever is asked in Christ's name, Christ will do, right? Want to go to bat for how many people have died uttering that very prayer?<BR/><BR/><B>I believe we are Gods children and as our father his is concerned for our well being and will help if asked. Is this so different from us? Do you not help your child if he asks and sometimes even when he doesn't?</B><BR/>Exactly. In fact, since God knows what we have need of before we even ask [Matt 6:8], God's response is about God's desire to help and lack of response is not due to God's ignorance of our need for help. In fact, if I was a perfect father, I would meet my child's needs in such a way that they knew it was me meeting their needs and they would love me more for it.<BR/><BR/><B>And doesn't it depend on how he treats you when he asks?</B><BR/>As a human being, maybe. As a selfish and limited human being. But if you are a perfect and all-good God...then...it's about the kid's needs, right, and not your own ego or self-importance?<BR/><BR/><B>You certainly aren't specific in what hope I have when you asked the question but based on the premis of you entry I assumed that to be hopew in the existance of God, am I wrong?</B><BR/>Not sure what you meant by that last sentence. I asked you if you came to make a point or argue or ask a question. You seem to have done just that. Good. Let's see what you think of my response. Regards, Dnsflhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129382545589470620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1145473373002262092006-04-19T15:02:00.000-04:002006-04-19T15:02:00.000-04:00To Exbeliever: I only put those other references ...To Exbeliever: <BR/><BR/>I only put those other references there, as previously, to show that there are multiple accounts of the same event which, generally speaking, agree on the basic happenings of the time of Jesus' resurrection. I don't believe that ANY of them will ever offer concrete proof that It happened. Otherwise, why would we need faith? There will never be a smoking gun. <BR/><BR/>As far as faith being based on fact, I can only speak for myself. I did not ask for faith, it found me and worked within me. I truly believe that. I'm no great shakes that God just had to come down and grant my wish to have strong faith. I believe that I'm a tiny, little, almost insignificant pawn, but I'm ok with that. If you were to say to me, you know, I really associate with Islam, I would say GREAT!!!!! You believe in God, now, let's start talking! I believe you should choose Christianity because my soul tells me this. Every fiber of my being tells me that it is truth. Again, I understand that this really doesn't mean as much as a hill of beans in southeast China to anyone here, but it means everything to me. I don't believe in Jesus' resurrection because The Bible tells me it is so. I believed first, then found out the details. Even a lot of Christians don't believe this, but as I've previously said, my faith is my own. <BR/><BR/>I'd like to ask you again about the reason(s) for your "deconversion".<BR/><BR/>By the way, if it's difficult to think of me as a positive influence here, maybe this will help. You have had almost 50 hits on this particular blog, and 28 on the last one. I think that if this continues, you could begin advertising here and make a profit. See, I'm not so bad after all. God works in mysterious ways through miserable sinners like me.<BR/><BR/>To DagoodS:<BR/><BR/>As I was saying to Exbeliever just now, the historical evidence of what took place back then is just window-dressing. It's not what I base my faith on. I had my faith first, then started delving into history later (honestly, doubt and humanity were the reasons for a lot of my research). Even though I always knew I believed in God, I still had my weaknesses and questioned a lot. <BR/><BR/>As far as the viability of not believing in God, I completely agree with you. I wish it were not so, but I cannot argue that point. Your faith against God is your faith just as mine is mine. <BR/><BR/>As far as determining what is historical, as if some people were in a room saying something like "OK, let's make it historically correct so people will believe it. Then, let's add the untruths about Jesus and God and nobody will ever know." I just don't buy it. Get two different people who saw the same thing and you'll likely get 2 different answers. The details will be fuzzy. As a believer, though, I don't worry about that stuff anymore. I don't feel compelled to try to prove my faith to myself. I know I believe, and I know why. I'm ok with that. <BR/><BR/>As far as the locale thing, who's to say that God chose certain people in a certain area? Does not The Bible say that Israel will be fought over through the history of the world? Is this the place where He was to make His stronghold? I don't pretend to know God's plan and why it reaches to certain areas more than others. Nobody knows. All the demographic studies ever done could never come to a conclusion on that. I believe it's God's plan and realize you do not. We just disagree on all these faith-based decisions. Christians are called forth to evangelize and we do. Many parts of the globe have many missionaries in them. However, The Bible states that the road to Heaven is narrow. The number of people getting there will be small. <BR/><BR/>As far as my faith needing a factual basis, or reading The Bible, then stating "I believe this" or "I don't believe this", it's just not so. The more study of The Bible I do, the more I know ABOUT God, but my beliefs were already there. This may be the hardest thing for people here to accept. The need for factual or empirical data is all over this blog. The fact that I deny this need for information is shunned and I think most of you believe that even I don't believe what I'm saying here. The problem is that I do. I lived this life and look back on it. I see how faith has done things in my life and what it is currently doing. I believe my faith keeps bringing me back here to talk with you. If not for your salvation, then for mine. I have learned many lessons here, including a good one on being more humble. <BR/><BR/>All I can say, in conclusion, is look deep into the depths of your soul. Is there a longing deep in there to know God? I have that longing. I don't feel like I need to know every fact in order to maintain my faith. I just need to do God's work and live as best as I can as He instructed me. <BR/><BR/>Okay, you all have to give me a couple of days to rest. My wife is getting mad at me for the time I've spent here.David Poehleinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15552219773575528023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1145468673895210822006-04-19T13:44:00.000-04:002006-04-19T13:44:00.000-04:00When you get right down to it, the real question i...When you get right down to it, the real question is: why should I believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of the Creator of the Universe? Why? <BR/><BR/>The ancient Israelites or Hebrews or whatever one wishes to call them, were a semi-nomadic confederation of tribes who knew little of medicine, engineering, agriculture, astronomy and the sciences, and yet an all-powerful entity that created this essentially infinite universe filled with galaxies, stars, planets, comets, asteroids etc. picks one guy on one planet in this vast universe and makes a pact with him and his descendants who become the ancient Israelites. When it comes right down to it, this is what Bible believers are asking us to believe.<BR/><BR/>I know the standard response "well, we mere mortals cannot fully grasp the reasons why God does what he does." That's a nice copout answer because it relieves the person who utters it of having to offer any proof to back up what he says. <BR/><BR/>Again, if the Bible is the inerrant word of the Creator of the Universe, why is it that civilizations were able to thrive around the world who never had any contact with the ancient Israelites and develop moral and cultural traditions of their own? If God wanted all of humanity to follow the 10 Commandments, why not make it known to all of humanity at the same time? <BR/><BR/>The laws of the Old Testament of the Bible belong to that of a tribal Bronze age culture, whose priests invented an angry and jealous God as a means of enforcing a sense of cohesion on a fractious people who had endured repeated conquests and dislocations at the hands of their neighbors.<BR/><BR/>That's why it also cracks me up when fundamentalists Muslims in Southeast Asia start wearing Arabic clothing and growing beards in imitation of Arab muslims. What these knuckleheads are doing is adopting Middle Eastern desert clothing in a tropical Southeast Asian climate! That is probably how most Arabs of the desert dressed even before Islam ever arrived on the scene. But the SE Asian muslims have this stupid idea that wearing Arabic clothing makes them more holy or something.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1145464997952041392006-04-19T12:43:00.000-04:002006-04-19T12:43:00.000-04:00Not just stopping by after all and here are some q...Not just stopping by after all and here are some questions.<BR/>Aaron Kinney said" We have proof that matter/energy cannot be created nor destroyed."<BR/>I'll grant you that statement but my question is does that mean it has always existed? If not when did matter/energy come to be? It can have no beginning because it cannot be created? How can there be no beginning? I can creat light, a formn of energy by running electricity through a filament made of tungston. That is created energy isn't it? <BR/>I'm not making a political statement and I realize what the site is for, it is very well spelled out, not hard to figure out what the site if for. While we of coarse have rights to our own bodies we have restrictions about what we can do to others. When does life start then? A fetus becomes another person at what point? So my argument remains intact even for an athiest site. When does it cross from doing to your own body and doing to another body? We certainly have labels for different stages of developement, but then comes the problem of when does it become another person?<BR/>EB: I never said I believed in a christian God by the way you implied that. I just said God. Wether you call it supreme being, great spirit, Christian God, Hindu God, or what have you it's all actually the same being. That people have a different perception of this beings traits, desires, personality, ect... is no suprise at all but it is the same person. You ask for the immpossible in proof for everything from the bible and gloat when no one can meet the task. You want my reasons for believing? Fine. I was certainly brought up in a religion and what I learned from such was to question even what those church authorities said and take the matter to God through prayer. He didn't show up in my room and talk to me but then thats not how prayers are answered. I first study the matter out in my mind and make a decision as to wether I accept what I am told or not then ask through a prayer with faith. I recieve an answer through feelings given to me. Of coarse this sounds whacked to not only athiest but also many so called Christians. So I have studied a graeat many things out and decided for myself if I believe them to be true or not and I then take the matter up between me and God an he lets me know through feelings if I am on the right track or not. This will certainly not satisfy you quest for proof in the scientific world but it isn't about that anyway. Aas for bible scripture to back that up try James 1:5-6. Many times throughout the bible we are taught to pray, it means to ask God in Christs' name. I believe we are Gods children and as our father his is concerned for our well being and will help if asked. Is this so different from us? Do you not help your child if he asks and sometimes even when he doesn't? And doesn't it depend on how he treats you when he asks? You certainly aren't specific in what hope I have when you asked the question but based on the premis of you entry I assumed that to be hopew in the existance of God, am I wrong?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1145462623214533342006-04-19T12:03:00.000-04:002006-04-19T12:03:00.000-04:00David Poehlein –Thank you for your response. I do...David Poehlein –<BR/><BR/>Thank you for your response. I doubt you would like to discuss with me in person. I type at 30-40 words per minute, but speak in excess of 300 wpm when excited. (Court reporters clock me.) I define the ability to talk your ear off. And you write quite a bit—a coffee between us would turn into a weekend!<BR/><BR/>Let me grab two sentences out of your post to hopefully demonstrate what I am talking about:<BR/><BR/><I>The Bible, along with countless other sources, document history from that time period.</I> This is no longer a faith statement—it is a positive assertion that requires proof. Focusing on just the New Testament, we have a variety of documents from that time period. Satirical plays. Are they historical? In one aspect, no, they are a farce. In another, yes, because they are demonstrating what is happening in that time. We have documents that purport to be historical. Yet history was written differently. Facts were not explicitly necessary, if words were placed in a person’s mouth, and the author <I>felt</I> it was something they would say, but may not have, this was acceptable.<BR/><BR/>Josephus did this with Moses. I would agree that the New Testament records cities (like Corinth) and people (like Pilate) that are historically correct. But to claim that everything the Bible states is history takes us out of faith and into proof. Otherwise, someone else could say “The Bible contains NO history whatsoever and I take that solely on faith” and you cannot argue with that position. You both use the same methodology to get completely different results.<BR/><BR/>What if I told you I take it solely on faith that Jesus never existed? You would have to agree that my position is just as viable as your own, as we both use the same method (faith) to reach our conclusion. If you say, “what about the Bible, the historians, the establishment of the church?” I reply, “I take it on faith. Faith has nothing to do with proof.” What contention could you have with this position?<BR/><BR/>How do we determine what is historical in the Bible or not, or is it all in the guessing world of faith?<BR/><BR/>Another statement:<BR/><BR/><I> …Either you believe in The Resurrection or you don’t.” </I> What Resurrection? How would you even know of this thing, if you didn’t have some source? Your faith <B>starts</B> with some knowledge—what if that knowledge is wrong? Do you have faith in Osiris’ resurrection? Tammuz Resurrection? Mithra resurrection? <BR/><BR/>No, you have limited it to just Christ’s resurrection. Isn’t it peculiar that you happen to have faith in what happens to be the most popular resurrection of your time? If you were in Egypt, you would have had faith in Osiris. If in Hellenized Greece, in Mithra. You have deliberately chosen the most common religion of your locale, I suspect.<BR/><BR/>If God gives faith, and the Resurrection is true, not on proof, not on word of mouth, not on books, why is it that we have never encountered anyone that has had this faith in a Jesus of first century Palestine resurrecting, before they ever hear about it? Why is it that in Muslim countries, there is no springing forth of this faith? In Aztec cultures—unheard of? In African nations—nothing?<BR/><BR/>Dave Poehlein, you may want to remove the basis of your faith as being a fact question, but it simply must be. Have you EVER heard of anyone having faith in the Resurrection BEFORE hearing about it? No, we can review what people are hearing, and if it is contrary to the evidence, point that out. If they cannot help but believe it anyway, all I can do is keep pointing it out. Just like others did for me, at one time.<BR/><BR/>Finally, you said, <I>You can mold history accounts into whatever you wish, so can I.</I> Why bother molding historical accounts? You have faith, so molding or not molding is irrelevant. I do not have any agenda with what history states, so I am free to say, “I don’t know, but the evidence of this, this, this and that would have me believe these events happened. Upon new information, I may change.”<BR/><BR/>Can a Christian say that? Can a Christian find out that archeology 100% supports the notion that an Exodus did not occur, and say, “Fine, that fits within my historical scheme.” Can a Christian review the Testimonium Flavianum, and agree that it is an inserted, and modified text, which was not in the original? Careful, if one starts to argue, this takes us out of faith!<BR/><BR/>If tomorrow, somehow a great discovery was made, and DNA of the person of Jesus was demonstrated, would that change my history? Sure, I could put away any of the problems presented by a mythical Jesus, and confidently declare Jesus was a historical person. But if a discovery was made tomorrow that placed the Gospel of Mark written in 135 C.E., would a Christian likewise modify their historical outlook?<BR/><BR/>Just thinking about these things seems to take us out of faith. DNA, Dates, history, books, all of these items are evidence(s)—the opposite of faith.<BR/><BR/>Maybe you and I are truly on opposite sides of the planet. You have no interest in these proofs, and I can’t tear myself away from them. Still makes me wonder why your God is so one-dimensional, He can only convince those that need no convincing. Notice that you actually spend more time convincing us than your God will.<BR/><BR/>Makes you a better person than your own God.DagoodShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04557451438888314932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1145460440825995242006-04-19T11:27:00.000-04:002006-04-19T11:27:00.000-04:00centuri0n,Are you just asking questions to hear yo...centuri0n,<BR/><BR/>Are you just asking questions to hear yourself talk, or are you serious?<BR/><BR/>So, in your opinion, has, say, "revealed truth from God" served us better in understanding the natural world than "discovering natural law through the toil and sweat of science"? Since science only attempts to answer questions about the natural, we should compare <I>vis-a-vis</I>, no?<BR/><BR/><B>what would...look like</B><BR/><BR/>Perhaps if God had boomed down from Sinai, "Write THIS on those tablets: thou shalt boil thy water to kill parasites and micrboes, so that thy children do not die of dysentery and parasitic disease for the next thousands of years, thou shalt ferment alcohol via [X] method to use as a cleaning agent for your bodies and medical instruments to prevent disease, thou shalt..."<BR/><BR/>Would it look like that? Maybe even:<BR/>"Even though thou thinkest the earth is flat, it is an ellipsoidal solid orbiting the star that gives you light -- the sun, and there are no "monsters" out there, no "dragons", no "magic", no "psychic powers"...only I, God have those powers..."<BR/><BR/>I mean, God could've neatly saved us millions of agonizing deaths via sepsis and parasitic infection and etc. and etc. and <I>ad nauseum</I>, but for whatever reason, <I>not eating shellfish and rabbits was more important</I> for us to "write down and keep the law" of...<BR/><BR/>I will work on a post which will be an argument from God's silence concerning the working of the natural world, insofar as it would have prevented agony and pain, and yet God's divinely big flapper was shut concerning these "mysteries" and we had to wrestle them away from mute Nature through our own toil and efforts. Biblical scientific "foreknowledge" [lack thereof] is always a fun topic. Not likely to convert people either way, but just one more argument to pile up that God either does not exist or does not care about us.nsflhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129382545589470620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1145460014058518662006-04-19T11:20:00.000-04:002006-04-19T11:20:00.000-04:00I didn't think we were doing the "DebateBlog" thin...I didn't think we were doing the "DebateBlog" thing.<BR/><BR/><I>In what way has the scientific method served us well?</I><BR/><BR/>It's yielded medicines that keep babies from dying, etc.<BR/><BR/><I>What would "truth [yielded] more effectively" look like?</I><BR/><BR/>I don't know. I only said that it might be possible. I'm thinking in the Khunsian sense--i.e. another method might answer anomalies better.<BR/><BR/>I'm not a scientist.<BR/><BR/>***<BR/><BR/>Anyway, like I said, I'm not interested in your method of supporting your assertion that the Christian God exists. I already started at you starting point and it led me here.<BR/><BR/>If you wanted to make a less emotive/more rational case it might be different. As my last few posts indicate, I am specifically looking for a presuppositionalist who is willing to support TAG. I thought that maybe you, as a Calvinist, held this position. You don't, however.exbelieverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04821290397922309515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1145459259547356302006-04-19T11:07:00.000-04:002006-04-19T11:07:00.000-04:00EB said:No. Though the scientific method, as it is...EB said:<BR/><BR/><I>No. Though the scientific method, as it is traditionally stated, appears to have served us well (and, therefore, inspires a good deal of confidence in me), this does not mean that it is infallible. There might be another method that yields "truth" more effectively than the scientific method.</I><BR/><BR/>In what way has the scientific method served us well?<BR/><BR/>What would "truth [yielded] more effectively" look like?FX Turkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16798420127955373559noreply@blogger.com