tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post114666278672035111..comments2024-03-25T17:35:02.238-04:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: There is no Jehovah-Rophi, no CovenantUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-86356394804584540422007-04-19T02:24:00.000-04:002007-04-19T02:24:00.000-04:00Wow, your explanations all have very well-develope...Wow, your explanations all have very well-developed trains of logic, and are able to articulate your messages clearly. You never arrived at faith, for then you would have seen. You only ever arrived at "mental ascent" of the Truth; as is evidenced by the stronghold of your hardness: your intellect, which is now used to hate God, and hate others. You never knew God, for had you known Him, you would choose to die before denying His sweet love. There's so much hurt in your words, you wanted Him so badly, but He didn't prove Himself to your satisfaction. And now you hate Him, because its easier to deny Him, then to suffer the pain of humbling yourself to Him, and the rest of the world. <BR/><BR/>Regardless of what your words try to say, they still cry out for hope, and your desperation for Him. Don't just try Jesus this time. Leave it all at the cross.<BR/><BR/>Love,<BR/>KUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03363428121895472050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1156938719363178352006-08-30T07:51:00.000-04:002006-08-30T07:51:00.000-04:00Henwhisperer,I am a random vistor, having googled ...Henwhisperer,<BR/><BR/><I>I am a random vistor, having googled up Jehovah-Rophi and found a link to your blog.</I><BR/><BR/>Thanks for visiting. Look around, ask questions, join in the dialogue!<BR/><BR/><I>Just want to say how sorry I am that you have gone so far away from the peace of Christ.</I><BR/><BR/>Well, I'm actually more peaceful now that I don't have to deal with so many nagging questions, concerns, doubts, etc. For instance, I don't believe in heaven or hell, so I don't spend all my time chewing my fingernails about whether I'll be in one or the other, or whether those I love will be.<BR/><BR/><I>Without Him I would still be in terrible shape. He has healed me in numerous ways, I can testify to miracles that He has done, including healing from sickness, especially when He was trying to call me back to Himself.</I><BR/><BR/>Do you wish to give details? If you really think miracles occurred, I'd love to hear about them.<BR/><BR/><I>You make too much of study. Jesus said there are only two laws (NT): Love your neighbor..., love the Lord..., and all laws are found in these two.</I><BR/><BR/>But, I can pick out many verses (study to show thyself approved...i have meditated on your word day and night...etc) that say I <I>ought</I> to concern myself with study. Further, I really want to understand what it is that the Bible says, and teaches, so that I can rationally either accept it as concurring with reality, or reject it as disjointed with reality.<BR/><BR/><I>Living with God and Jesus isn't meant to be a high intellectual pursuit. His ways are higher than ours.</I><BR/><BR/>Appealing to the divine inscrutability only works in those cases where we <B>just can't understand</B>, such as how something can come from nothing. It doesn't apply to obvious contradictions, such as the above.<BR/><BR/><I>Can you out think him? Just live it.</I><BR/><BR/>Ah, but see, according to the Bible, God didn't create us just to live. We have to concern ourselves constantly with whether or not we've lavished enough praise upon God, and repented sincerely enough, to make God accept us and give us grace.<BR/><BR/><I>Breath in, God is there, breath out, God is there.</I><BR/><BR/>When I breathe in and out, all I know is there is air. Sorry.nsflhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129382545589470620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1156937322512040362006-08-30T07:28:00.000-04:002006-08-30T07:28:00.000-04:00I am a random vistor, having googled up Jehovah-Ro...I am a random vistor, having googled up Jehovah-Rophi and found a link to your blog. Just want to say how sorry I am that you have gone so far away from the peace of Christ. Without Him I would still be in terrible shape. He has healed me in numerous ways, I can testify to miracles that He has done, including healing from sickness, especially when He was trying to call me back to Himself. <BR/><BR/>You make too much of study. Jesus said there are only two laws (NT): Love your neighbor..., love the Lord..., and all laws are found in these two. <BR/><BR/>Living with God and Jesus isn't meant to be a high intellectual pursuit. His ways are higher than ours. Can you out think him? Just live it. Breath in, God is there, breath out, God is there.Henwhispererhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16126695624933143089noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1155310264101641532006-08-11T11:31:00.000-04:002006-08-11T11:31:00.000-04:00Josh,Your curses are as impotent as your faith. G...Josh,<BR/><BR/>Your curses are as impotent as your faith. Go grow a brain.<BR/><BR/>Be <B>that</B> unto <B>you</B> as I have said, peckerwood.nsflhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129382545589470620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1147680379705774012006-05-15T04:06:00.000-04:002006-05-15T04:06:00.000-04:00Isn't that interesting how you chose to rid the fo...Isn't that interesting how you chose to rid the forum of my posts. Interesting. What are you afraid of . . . people actually learning that a God exists and that He really does desire to lavish His love on them?<BR/><BR/>Really! If I am so worng in what I right, then there really is no good reason to feel such an urgency to remove my posts.<BR/>But since you choose to remain as you are--proud and wise in your own eyes but foolish in the eyes of God(to whom it matters most), you will therefore die in your sins and suddenly sickness will come upon you that will not be removed unless you have a change of heart and seek God wholeheartedly in prayer.<BR/><BR/>The next time I write to you. This sicknes will be upon you.<BR/><BR/>This note also goes out to Edward T Babinski, you are to increase and increase in cancerous disease until you acknowledge God for who He is, humble your heart and seek His face.<BR/><BR/>Be it unto as I have said.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1147475828251795172006-05-12T19:17:00.000-04:002006-05-12T19:17:00.000-04:00Rich,The problem that I can't explain to you is wh...Rich,<BR/><B>The problem that I can't explain to you is why some are healed and some not.</B><BR/>Indeed, and the reason it is so problematic is that the book says, multiple times, that God is no respecter of persons: 2 Chron 19:7, Job 34:19, Acts 10:34-5, Rom 2:11-2, Gal 5:6, 1 Pet 1:17, 2 Pet 3:9.<BR/><BR/><B>God has his own purposes and they are eternal in nature whereas mine are carnal.</B><BR/>And this is the heart of blind devotion to a God who refuses to heal your daughter from her suffering, when all it would take is less than a blink of God's omnipotent eye. Why think that this God exists at all, and that if this God does exist, that this God loves you, Rich?<BR/><BR/><B>If I had my way alot of things would be different, as I think alot of people here would agree.</B><BR/>Indeed, I would never have started in motion a world where children are abducted from their families, raped and tortured over the course of days, then buried alive only yards from their home. I would never sit on my thumbs and watch people rot of cancer and babies die of simple water-borne parasitic infestations and daughters of Christian men who pray suffer. If I had the power to change those things, I would. That is why I know that your God doesn't exist, Rich.<BR/><BR/><B>But since I'm not in charge I have to learn to accept the no answers to prayers as I do the yes answers.</B><BR/>What reason do you have for believing that there is a GOd on the other end of your prayers at all? How would your life be substantially different if you were just praying to the air? What would change?<BR/><BR/><B>I see alot of people who seem to have at least that much faith but no mountains move. There truely are just some things we don't have answers for.</B><BR/>Thank you for your candor. There are many things I don't have the answers for. And therefore, I don't build my entire worldview upon those things. Further, I would say that there <I>is an answer</I>--it's that this covenant is a farce, either because this God isn't there, or this God isn't worth believing in the first place.<BR/><BR/>Let's think about this God and the Abrahamic covenant for a moment: God promises Abe descendents that outnumber the sands of the sea, and in the next breath, tells Abe to take <I>his only son and sacrifice him</I>. Abe was like you, and said, "whatever God's reasons, they are good." I would <B>not</B> have done this, realizing "if this God meant it before, when it promised something, it wouldn't turn around and ask me to kill the only way that its promise could come true."<BR/><BR/>In the same sense, the promises that your God made, and you now blindly trust will come true, have been killed by reality--people suffer and their prayers are bouncing off of the firmament. Wake up. There is no covenant, Rich.nsflhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129382545589470620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1147460122882979302006-05-12T14:55:00.000-04:002006-05-12T14:55:00.000-04:00thank you Daniel, I actually know how to enter i...thank you Daniel,<BR/> I actually know how to enter into the covenant with God it is by baptism. The problem that I can't explain to you is why some are healed and some not. We are suppose to do things in faith and then whatever is ask of God in chrits name that is expedient will come to pass. I wish I had a better explaination but there just isn't one. God has his own purposes and they are eternal in nature whereas mine are carnal. If I had my way alot of things would be different, as I think alot of people here would agree. But since I'm not in charge I have to learn to accept the no answers to prayers as I do the yes answers. We are told it only thakes the faith of a mustard seed to move a mountain. I see alot of people who seem to have at least that much faith but no mountains move. <BR/>There truely are just some things we don't have answers for.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1147425677779917322006-05-12T05:21:00.000-04:002006-05-12T05:21:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1147002423717924912006-05-07T07:47:00.000-04:002006-05-07T07:47:00.000-04:00Alice,Closing thought for you:Man once surrenderin...Alice,<BR/><BR/>Closing thought for you:<BR/><BR/><B>Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such persons, gullibility, which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason, and the mind becomes a wreck.</B> --Thomas Jefferson to James Smith, 1822. ME 15:409nsflhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129382545589470620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1147002332371652942006-05-07T07:45:00.000-04:002006-05-07T07:45:00.000-04:00Rich,A truly touching entry. Thank you for sharin...Rich,<BR/><BR/>A truly touching entry. Thank you for sharing your questions and thoughts. <BR/><BR/>You asked about how you enter into the covenant. According to the anonymous writer of Hebrews 9 [as if the majority of the NT, aside from Paul, wasn't written anonymously], the new covenant<BR/>is administered analogously to the old -- Jesus functions as the High Priest, offering Jesus' own blood as the perfect sacrifice to appease God. Now, according to the OT, the promise was only given to the children of Abraham, and was kept by the following of the Law [to the greatest extent possible]. According to the NT, there are literally dozens of prescribed methods of "salvation", or of receiving the promise of the new covenant. Here is a smattering:<BR/>1) hear the gospel & believe in the Father [John 5:24]<BR/>2) baptism [John 3:5]<BR/>3) grace & faith, not works [Eph 2:8-9]<BR/>4) faith & works [James 2:17]<BR/>5) keeping commandments [Matt 19:17]<BR/>6) belief in the Christ [John 3:16]<BR/>7) belief & baptism [Mark 16:16]<BR/>8) by your words [Matt 12:37]<BR/>9) calling on the lord [Acts 2:21]<BR/>10) grace & baptism (possibly "washing" means with blood) [Titus 3:5]<BR/>11) god made the "wicked" for the "day of evil" [Prov 16:4] -- this would fall in line with predestination/calvinism [cf John 1:29,4:42, 1 Cor 15:29, Heb 2:9, 1 John 4:14]<BR/>12) Predestiny [Matt 7:14,22:14, Luke 12:32,13:24, John 6:37-65,15:16-19, Rom 8:29,9:11-23, Eph 1:4]<BR/>13) just desire it [Matt 7:7-8,11:28, John 3:16-17,5:30,7:37, Acts 2:21, Rev 3:20]<BR/><BR/>Sooooo...your guess as to how to "enter in" to the covenant is as good as mine.<BR/><BR/>;)<BR/><BR/>You said, "If at the end of this life there isn't a God will I have wasted my time? I will be in the same boat as the athiest. But if I am right and there is a God and he has eternal plans for us then I want to know what they are and how to get there."<BR/><BR/>This is a good question, and when posed with honest intentions [as I believe you have] is seriously worth considering. The question is basically identical to what is known as "Pascal's Wager" as a sort of "incentive" to believe in God: <B>If I'm wrong [as a Christian], I lose nothing, if I'm right, you [atheist/non-Christians of all kinds] lose everything</B>.<BR/><BR/>Of course, the immediate problem is that every single religion can say this same thing -- especially Islam and Hinduism and Judaism, in the sense that their religions are particularly exclusionary and have specific requirements for being "saved".<BR/><BR/>The other problem is that if people <I>only have faith</I> to give themselves a sort of "afterlife insurance", this is a weak and sad reason for faith, and their god may not be appeased.<BR/><BR/>I think that some people can have a full and happy life with their faith. I think that most of those people are like yourself, Rich, honest enough to admit to what you don't know, and to the problems that exist that you have no satisfactory answers for. <BR/><BR/><B>God has made the promises you list and he does always keep his end of the bargain, because it doesn't happen right away or on our terms doesn't mean it won't happen. My daughter mentioned could be completely healed in this life, its happened before so why not now, why not her? The answer I will honestly say is I don't have a clue. God has his eternal purposes and they are his, we will never in this life know why. If my daughter dies and is then ressurected to a perfect body without disease, pain and suffering would you say then that God didn't keep his promise?</B><BR/><BR/>I would indeed say that God did not keep the promises to heal your daughter's disease. I would indeed say that you have probably prayed for her healing...thousands of times? And according to all of the NT Scriptures I listed, and Jesus' own words, your prayers will be answered. Rich, when you say, "because it doesn't happen on our terms"...I listed <I>God's own terms</I>. I listed what GOd specifically said that God would do for you if you were in covenant with God.<BR/><BR/><B>I have to tell you I hate the word verification thing to post here, I can bearly spell and I have to recognize wierd looking letters before I can post? Thats the true problem with evil!:) I guess thats to keep idiots from posting? Well it ain't workin.</B><BR/>Hilarious!<BR/><BR/>No, Rich, it's to keep spambots from posting ads for viagra here. It's not meant to discourage our readers. There is a small handicapped icon beside the word verification box that I think makes it easier to see the letters.nsflhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129382545589470620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1146999241506965522006-05-07T06:54:00.000-04:002006-05-07T06:54:00.000-04:00What an intreging post. How do we enter into this ...What an intreging post. How do we enter into this covenant with God? You have pointed out the terms of the covenant but maybe I missed where you pointed out how we enter into this covenant. If it is a contract entered in by two people then where did I sign?<BR/>I have a severly handicapped, from birth, 10 year old girl and has a long list of symptoms for which she takes daily medicine. My entering into the picture was in her 4th year of living and she had spent countless hours in the hospital from siezures(how do you spell that?) anyway she has taken the same medication for years. Acorrding to doctors she shouldn't still be alive but is. She shouldn't walk but does not well but can walk. She shouldn't be able to eat by herself but can, she uses new bits of food to force already chewed food down the hatch. After a box of wipes she is clean again and ready to play. If then Gods plan is to test us here and see if we will be faithful I have to ask you how can she be tested faithfull with no concept of that? When you look into the eyes of that child you see a soul, a apirit that defies logic and confounds the learned as to how she still lives. Is this Gods doing? Is it because we give her the medicine everyday as perscribed? Even doctors say that the medicine won't stop her death, Well what is she here to teach me? Have I learned enough yet? When I do will God take her from me? He took my dad as I have mentioned before. 1000s of people have massive heart attacks and live why not my dad? his brother had 4 heart attacks before he finally died. We have no answers for these questions, athiest and christian alike because there are truley some questions without answers. I only relate this story filled with questions to point out a difference. There are those who suffer without faith and those who suffer with faith and I think the most impoortant thing is the final destination. I mentioned this once before here and I will again, If at the end of this life there isn't a God will I have wasted my time? I will be in the same boat as the athiest. But if I am right and there is a God and he has eternal plans for us then I want to know what they are and how to get there. <BR/>By the way we enter into said covenant by baptism and then our goal is to endure to the end. Endure everything that comes our way. God won't keep me from cancer if I smoke or continually hang around smokers, he won't keep me from VD if I continue to have unprotected promiscuas sex, there are more examples but I think you get the idea. God has made the promises you list and he does always keep his end of the bargain, because it doesn't happen right away or on our terms doesn't mean it won't happen. My daughter mentioned could be completely healed in this life, its happened before so why not now, why not her? The answer I will honestly say is I don't have a clue. God has his eternal purposes and they are his, we will never in this life know why. If my daughter dies and is then ressurected to a perfect body without disease, pain and suffering would you say then that God didn't keep his promise? I don't believe he will always keep every single person free from illness in this life and that the promise has eternal purposes. The reason the Jews don't view Christ as their savior is because he didn't come and destroy all their enemies as promised in the prophisies of the old testament. They missed the part about that being the second coming, not the first. He first had to overcome physical and spritual death, when he comes to to reign then will al the disease and suffering come to an end and peace will reign. <BR/>Enduring to the end means having faith and good works, keeping the commandments and continually repenting and bettering yourself throughout this life. Keeping faith in spite of the horrors of this world. This world is full of it too.<BR/>I have to tell you I hate the word verification thing to post here, I can bearly spell and I have to recognize wierd looking letters before I can post? Thats the true problem with evil!:) I guess thats to keep idiots from posting? Well it ain't workin.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1146998300076035302006-05-07T06:38:00.000-04:002006-05-07T06:38:00.000-04:00You want an objective, rational standard to judge ...<B>You want an objective, rational standard to judge God and his revelation by. It can't be done. By definition: if God is the highest authority, he does not need to be validated by any other authority, ie reason. He created reason, and he created our minds, which are now warped by the fall. Our minds are now no more reliable guides than a bent ruler is an accurate measuring stick. If I tried to use reason to justify God or prove his existence, I would be acknowledging as reason as an authority higher than God.</B><BR/><BR/>If what you say is true, you do realize that this implies that God need be neither reasonable nor moral, in the way that human beings perceive God, and thus defining God as "faithful to the covenant" and as "good" are both nullfied?<BR/><BR/>IOW, Alice, we can only use what we have. If our fundamental truth validation apparatus is flawed, then there is no hope for us to know the truth. But, <I>even this statement is <B>self-refuting</B></I>. I am now not judging God, but judging your own logic [lack thereof]. If our brains are flawed, how can you even know that? If we can trust our minds, how can you trust that conclusion? You are saying, axiomatically almost, that the human mind is flawed and what it <I>can trust</I> are ancient dusty scrolls of completely uncertain origins. You are saying that <I>those</I> are our measure. Unfortunately, <I>those scrolls</I> were distinctly human, and so the minds attached to them were also fallen, and so how do you justify and support your fundamental premises? You can't.<BR/><BR/>We can all believe a number of things, Alice, that may be unprovable. Believing that your own mind is flawed, and that you cannot use it to its fullest capacity, is self-refuting, and in a way "disproves itself".<BR/><BR/>If reason or morality are <I>contingent upon God</I>, then in that sense, using words like "good" are useless. We cannot even identify what "good" is, because "good" precludes infanticide according to every moral and ethical principle in philosophy. According to you, we have to <I>first</I> establish what God does and does not do, in order to know if it was "okay" for the Israelites to carry it out [via divine command]. According to you, we can't use our own faculties to substantiate or predict God's character or actions. God could be flippant, a liar, etc., and it would matter not, according to you, because God can "get away with it".<BR/><BR/>If this is true, then your God is no God at all. Your God may be powerful, and may be all-knowing, but your God would certainly be unworthy of worship.nsflhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129382545589470620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1146943828076957602006-05-06T15:30:00.000-04:002006-05-06T15:30:00.000-04:00Danny - Thanks for the lengthy response. I'm glad ...Danny - Thanks for the lengthy response. I'm glad to hear your father is living. I have to wonder, what is his opinion about God and his sickness? And how can you know that God has nothing to do with his being alive?<BR/><BR/>I see medicine as a tool in God's hands, and I have tried to explain this to some patients who take way too fatalistic an approach. Just as God used the Pharaohs to bring Israel first into, and then out of Egypt; as he used Judas to bring about the crucifixion; he uses medicine as a means to accomplish healing (if that's his plan). <BR/><BR/>Job, Romans, and the Torah were all inspired by God. I don't see any conflict between them. The Old Testament saints were praised and blessed by God for their faith, when they believed in God's promises with even less evidence than the New Testament saints had. That's what the end of Hebrews 11 is talking about.<BR/><BR/>I haven't mentioned this before, because there are plenty of times when God doesn't heal people. But there are also lots of modern instances where he does heal, miraculously. Some faith healers are just quacks. But there are also genuine miracles still occurring. You can't summarily ignore all of them.<BR/><BR/>You want an objective, rational standard to judge God and his revelation by. <I>It can't be done.</I> By definition: if God is the highest authority, he does not need to be <I>validated</I> by any other authority, ie reason. He created reason, and he created our minds, which are now warped by the fall. Our minds are now no more reliable guides than a bent ruler is an accurate measuring stick. If I tried to use reason to justify God or prove his existence, I would be acknowledging as reason as an authority higher than God. <BR/><BR/>btw, you keep saying that you're just as moral after your atheistic decision as before. That's because you were ingrained with a cultural predisposition towards a certain type of morality, and that culture is based on the Judeo-Christian ethic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1146914273867028032006-05-06T07:17:00.000-04:002006-05-06T07:17:00.000-04:00Alice,First, thank you for taking time out of your...Alice,<BR/><BR/>First, thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to <A HREF="http://www.homeschooledmedstudent.blog-city.com/creation_in_general_continued.htm" REL="nofollow">follow-up our prior conversations</A>.<BR/><BR/><B>...it seems that one of the things that contributed to you turning away from Christianity was your father becoming ill with cancer (and apparently dying)....</B><BR/>Yes and no. He'll still kicking, thanks to modern medicine, and no thanks to any action on God's part. See in the post above that I was careful to point out that in the understanding of Covenant, the Hebrews had no concept of "3rd-party, neutral" disease <I>or healing</I>. Sure, they were given a prescribed "cure" for some diseases, using an analogous process to medical practice [ie cleansing lepers with bird blood and ceremony ;}]. However, it was understood that since God handed this down, it wasn't <I>the bird blood itself</I>, but God's method and approval and authority therein, which made it "work". And if they had moved away from the specifics of their prescribed "cures", not only is there no guarantee they would be healed, but it <I>is guaranteed</I> that this would no longer be a part of the "pact" that God made with them, whether or not it worked.<BR/><BR/><B>...So your accusations of broken promises seem to be from a deep personal hurt.</B><BR/><BR/>And this accusation means what? So what if you're right, or wrong? The argument has to be analyzed on its own merits, and cannot be refuted or made invalid by examining my motives. Classic logical fallacy.<BR/><BR/><B>(And thank you very much for the beautiful collection of verses - such an encouraging start to my day. :)</B><BR/><BR/>Funny, since your day is all about mopping up behind God's failed promises by practicing medicine and giving people relief from pain and suffering, which your God doesn't seem to care to do.<BR/><BR/><B>"The Hebrews understood disease and sickness from the perspective that God could and would heal it, if they were in covenant with God."<BR/>I think that's the first gap in your argument. Often God does bless his people. But the Bible clearly teaches that you cannot expect guaranteed health, wealth, and prosperity.</B><BR/>Let's not get sidetracked with wealth and prosperity. In these verses, I have laid out <I>clear and unequivocal promises</I>, from God, and Jesus, regarding keeping those in covenant with God in health, and healing them, and answering their prayers, etc. I have also made the explicit point that sin is invoked as a root cause of disease and sickness <I>throughout</I> the Bible, and so for those who claim God has "removed" their sins from them, and "imputed" them on Jesus, and "washed them in the blood of Jesus", the burden is on you to show how this reconciles with the incontrovertible coincidence of disease.<BR/><BR/><B>Job is probably the arch-example of this. He suffered tremendously - almost unimaginably. And he had done absolutely nothing wrong.</B><BR/>Job was allowed to get boils, and his entire family was killed, because of a bet between God and da Debbil'. If we are to take this story literally, rather than as an allegory [it has some pretty clear marks], we <I>still see</I> that God <B>did not let Satan KILL Job</B>...because they were in covenant!<BR/><BR/>So, if you want to go here, then we can just focus on those people who get cancer...and <I>don't get "double for their trouble"</I>, as Job did, and survive the catastrophe. BTW, was God true to the promises made in those Scriptures for Job? Or was God's "answer" basically the same thing as, "don't question me boy, I'm bigger than you, and I could destroy you in a second!"<BR/><BR/><I>You seem to regard the idea that some promises relate to life after death as ridiculous, and uncomforting.</I><BR/><BR/>Question for you -- the Hebrews, given these promises, and given many promises that God is "no respecter of persons" [I quoted those above too], did <I>not have the Book of Job</I>, Alice. They also didn't have Paul's nearly-identical response [in Romans 9] to the question of how God could forsake people, after such concepts as God's promises and God's faithfulness and God's covenant were taken into consideration. They didn't have those books Alice. What were they to think? Who are we to believe? The writer of Job, Paul, or the writer(s) of the Torah and the Gospels?<BR/><BR/><I> But if you intend to use some Bible verses, you have to pay attention to the others too. Paul clearly acknowledges, "If in this life only we have hope in God, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead. . ." (I Cor. 15:19ff)</I><BR/>First, I used a lot more than "some" Bible verses. I quoted from Genesis to James. Indeed, I made the point that with some serious theology, one can attempt to defendsome aspect of the afterlife being the final fulfillment of the covenant. Of course, this clearly contradicts the plain words and meaning of the OT and NT Scriptures above, and takes those Scriptures completely out of context. This same practice of "twisting the words of the Bible" is probably why you are a YEC, isn't it, Alice? Why don't you just admit that a plain reading of these Scriptures indicates that God promises things that God doesn't fulfill?<BR/><BR/><I>Moreover, there are many examples in the Bible of people who were never healed - Paul, with his "thorn in the flesh" - or the man born blind, who had to wait dozens of years before the reason for his handicap was revealed.</I><BR/>Notice here that both men <I>were healed, and Paul multiple times</I>. Paul did not die of disease, and no one is sure what Paul's "thorn" was. Rampant speculation is all you can give me. Furthermore, and I assume you're referring to John 9, let's look closer at what Jesus said:<BR/><I>John 9:3-5 -- 3“It was not because of his sins or his parents’ sins,” Jesus answered. “He was born blind so the power of God could be seen in him. 4All of us must quickly carry out the tasks assigned us by the one who sent me, because there is little time left before the night falls and all work comes to an end. 5But while I am still here in the world, I am the light of the world.”</I><BR/><BR/>Is the power of God seen in some of your patients, Alice? Who die clutching some magic mantra, a Cross or rosary beads, or whatever, praying out to their God, patiently waiting? Indeed. <BR/><BR/>In v.4, how is it possible you can read that without seeing that Jesus told his disciples [supposedly] to go out and heal the sick? Yet we have no evidence, to this day, that disciples of Jesus are any more capable of healing people, or being healed themselves, than anyone else.<BR/><BR/><B>I have been taught (or brainwashed, as you prefer :) </B><BR/>I was brainwashed too. Don't feel bad about it.<BR/><BR/><B>that there are three possible reasons for any person's disease: 1) as a result of sin; 2) so that eventual healing can glorify God; 3) so that the individual and those around him/her can grow in faith and virtue.</B><BR/>Okay, so the question remains -- if 1-3 <I>are true</I>, let's say, how does it 1) demonstrate forgiveness and repentance, 2) glorify God, 3) induce faith and virtue...if someone rots away of cancer as a 9-year old leukemia patient who has been a Christian their entire lives? Let's look at that one simple case. The kid dies, believing God's promises about answered prayers in the NT and covenant promises to heal in the OT/NT. How do 1-3 apply in this case, Alice?<BR/><BR/><B>So, in your X+Y equation, the Y is faulty: Faith does not necessarily equal complete freedom from disease (or poverty, etc).</B><BR/>First, the argument of a covenant is an "if X, then Y", not an "X+Y". The understanding is that explicitly defined in Lev 26:40-2, 1 Ki 21:25-9, 2 Ki 22:18-20, 2 Chron 7:14, 2 Chron 12:5-12, 2 Chron 32:24-6, 2 Chron 33:9-13, 3 Chron 33:18-23, 2 Chron 32:26-8, Job 22:29, Psa 9:11-2, ,Psa 10:17-8, Psa 34:1-10, Isa 57:15, Jam 4:1-10, 1 Pet 5:5-7...where when people humble themselves, repent of their sins, ask forgiveness, and walk in covenant with God...that God restores them <B>completely</B>, just as God gave Job everything back that Job had lost.<BR/><BR/>Plus, I don't believe I ever said that faith is complete freedom from those things you said. I believe I quoted what God said, which clearly delineates that those in the covenant <I>are free from disease</I>. [it also speaks about poverty, etc., but that's for another day]<BR/><BR/><B>And your last question: Does understanding of the Bible require a 4yr theology degree? I should say that you folks on this blog are a good example of why that might not be a good idea. God's thoughts are far above ours; no man has ever been God's adviser. Don't be so arrogant as to think that you are in a position to accuse your Maker of injustice. (Rom. 9)</B><BR/>Ah, but don't you see, Alice, that retreating into the inscrutable will of God, all the while maintaining God is good, is like admitting defeat? It's saying, "I can't explain how God is still good...but...God still is!" It's saying, "yes, I can't explain that, but I still believe it," <BR/><BR/>None of us here think that a fideist, or theonomist, like you admitted being, can ever be swayed from their clear commitment to the idea that God is good, that God's laws in the OT were good, etc. All we can do is show you that your standard of "good" is meaningless. You can't defend it, you can't define it, and you have to admit that stoning a girl who was raped [Deut 22:23-4] and ordering the killing of infants [1 Sam 15:3, Num 31:17-8, etc.] and other morally bankrupt actions...are <I>somehow, someway, sometimes</I> <B>still good</B>, just because God supposedly ordered them. That the action of killing a baby is not intrinsically and objectively evil, but that it <I>only is, if God doesn't command it</I>. In this way, you erase the boundaries of "good/bad" and simply substitute "God/not God". Every God = good, everything not God = not good. Therefore, you aren't allowed to use the word "good" as we do.<BR/><BR/>We think freedom is good. You think freedom is rebellion. We think rational thought is good. You think it is "arrogant" to "judge" the Bible.<BR/><BR/>What you do, Alice, is give the Bible the standing of unquestionable authority. You do that, then tell me I can't question it. In a way, you boil it down to dogmatic and blind acceptance of your doctrines.<BR/><BR/>The same with morality. The problem, as I linked to with the <A HREF="http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/euthyphrodilemma.html" REL="nofollow">The Euthyphro Dilemma</A>, is you need <I>some objective standard</I> to even describe GOD by. Otherwise, we lose the ability to give God adjectives: good, all-knowing, all-loving. We say that God <I>is those things, and <B>thus God deserves worship</B></I> and our obedience, and etc. <BR/><BR/>If God is not those things, if those things are <I>themselves defined by God</I> (see premises 5,6 of link), we lose the ability to even objectively know what those words mean. It becomes no different than us saying, "God is God" as to say "God is good" or "God is loving"<BR/><BR/>Another issue that this brings up is -- is there "free moral agency"? By this, I don't mean "the ability to make free choices", since you already indicated your Reformed/Calvinist bent. I mean, instead, that though the Bible assures us [eg Psalm 53] that those without God do evil...do they even know that they are doing evil? If they don't know God, and if God is the measure of good/evil, and if there is no objective way otherwise to appraise these values but faith and revelation...how can God hold them culpable for "doing wrong"? In fact, this would render God unjust. How does Paul answer this vexing problem? <BR/><BR/><B>HE DOESN'T!</B><BR/><BR/>He begs it off by declaring us unfit to even pose the question! And that's what happens when your faith hits a brick wall -- it either shatters, or it says "there cannot be a brick wall here!"<BR/><BR/>Now, this is totally off-topic, because the point of this post is to contrast God's promises and covenant with reality. But, if you want to go further with this, read <A HREF="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2006/02/evidentialist-challenge-restated.html" REL="nofollow">places</A> that this very topic has been gone over before -- a critique of "divine command theory" [and/or God as some sort of absolute basis, apart from our ability to recognize, characterize, and know moral and logical truths without God]<BR/><BR/>As Kai Nelson said, in a debate with Craig Nelson [you ought to read the whole thing] <A HREF="http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/craig-nielsen2.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>:<BR/><I>The first thing to see [about this is the fact] that something is commanded doesn’t make [it] good or bad. I could tell you if you were all smoking in here, "Stop smoking," or if none of you were smoking, I could say, "Light up." My command, even if I had the authority to make the command, doesn’t justify the command. There has to be some independent reason for doing the command. It’s not just my commanding it that does it. So [the fact] that something is commanded doesn’t make it desirable or undesirable, obligatory or non-obligatory. Someone will say, "But it’s God’s commanding it that makes all the difference." Fair enough, so far. But it isn’t because God is all-powerful that makes it desirable or good or bad. When God said to Job, "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?" all that God shows there is his power. But power is compatible with evil. That a being is powerful doesn’t mean that you should obey that being except out of fear. It doesn’t give you a moral reason to obey the being.<BR/><BR/>"But God is all-knowing; he has perfect knowledge [whereas] we do not," which is true by definition. If there is such a God, this doesn’t give you any reason for doing it because perfect knowledge is compatible with perfect evil. "Well, it’s because God is all-good." Now I ask you Christians, "How do you know that God is all-good?" I know you believe it, you accept it, but how do you know it? Probably, the most common answer is this: "Well, you read the Scriptures, and you see the kind of exemplar that Jesus was, his death on the cross, and so on." You forget things like "He who is not with me is against me." But you selectively read the Bible, and there are plenty of passages in which Jesus shows himself to be an incredible exemplar. But notice that to see that he is an exemplar already presupposes that you have a prior understanding of what is good and bad. Because you have an understanding of what is good and bad, you see Jesus to be a desirable exemplar. So you have an independent moral understanding and knowledge which doesn’t rest on your belief in God.<BR/><BR/>Suppose somebody says, "Look, God is the perfect Good by definition." Some philosophers used to call this an analytic truth--like "Puppies are young dogs." But if you didn’t know what "young" meant, you couldn’t even know what "puppy" meant. If you didn’t know what "good" meant, you couldn’t even know what "God" meant. You have to have some understanding of "good" to judge that God is the perfect Good. So again, you need a moral criterion that is your own and doesn’t come from God. It may come causally from God, but it doesn’t come in a justificatory sense, which is the relevant thing in arguing about morality.<BR/><BR/>If you think this is too much logic-chopping--or quasi-logic chopping (and the thing is actually more complex than I’ve been able to show), let me give you a far more simple reason to see that belief in morality and making sense of morality is independent of belief in God. Suppose that you believe in God and that you have children; you recognize that your children depend on you, and there are certain things that you owe them--protection, care, and love. You love your children; you want to protect them and care for them. But you’re also a believer. Suppose that--for good or bad reasons--you lose your faith. Have you the slightest reason to stop loving your children, to stop caring for your children, to stop protecting your children? Not in the slightest. If you had reason to care for and love your children before, you’re going to have as much reason after you’ve lost your faith. And that’s a far simpler to show how morality is quite independent of religion.</I>nsflhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129382545589470620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1146910413846959632006-05-06T06:13:00.000-04:002006-05-06T06:13:00.000-04:00WB,I can take up for myself, I'm a big boy ;)If Ch...WB,<BR/><BR/>I can take up for myself, I'm a big boy ;)<BR/><BR/>If Christians don't rely upon the authority of the Bible for their argumentation, they know there is nothing to argue about. This would be effectively the same as Alice demanding of me to ignore evidence that contradicts the Bible and only quote from and argue from evidence that supports the Bible. Sometimes, for this very reason, I ask myself, "why even try to reason with them?" That is why, in posts like these, I just focus on <I>what God supposedly promises</I> and contrast it with the reality of our universe, to give such Biblicists cognitive dissonance, in the hope they'll "see the light".nsflhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129382545589470620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1146860234986193832006-05-05T16:17:00.000-04:002006-05-05T16:17:00.000-04:00Alice,Two things:Frist,I think it is unfair to bri...Alice,<BR/><BR/>Two things:<BR/><BR/>Frist,I think it is unfair to bring Br. Danny's personal experiences into a debate. <BR/><BR/>Second, I am Christian and I can have a conversation without continually quoting verses from the Bible. If you want to be taken seriously it might benefit you to start writing your own actual thoughts, not programed verses.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1146846132691910692006-05-05T12:22:00.000-04:002006-05-05T12:22:00.000-04:00Danny - After looking at your biography, it seems ...Danny - After looking at your biography, it seems that one of the things that contributed to you turning away from Christianity was your father becoming ill with cancer (and apparently dying). So your accusations of broken promises seem to be from a deep personal hurt.<BR/><BR/>(And thank you very much for the beautiful collection of verses - such an encouraging start to my day. :)<BR/><BR/>"The Hebrews understood disease and sickness from the perspective that God could and would heal it, if they were in covenant with God."<BR/><BR/>I think that's the first gap in your argument. Often God does bless his people. But the Bible clearly teaches that you cannot expect guaranteed health, wealth, and prosperity. Job is probably the arch-example of this. He suffered tremendously - almost unimaginably. And he had done absolutely nothing wrong. We, who have been looking behind the scenes, know that there was a much bigger story going on. Job was repeatedly tempted to curse God, since obviously God was no longer blessing his faithfulness. But Job persisted confidently: "For I know that my Redeemer lives, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God." (Job 19:25-26) You seem to regard the idea that some promises relate to life after death as ridiculous, and uncomforting. But if you intend to use some Bible verses, you have to pay attention to the others too. Paul clearly acknowledges, "If in this life only we have hope in God, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead. . ." (I Cor. 15:19ff)<BR/><BR/>Moreover, there are many examples in the Bible of people who were never healed - Paul, with his "thorn in the flesh" - or the man born blind, who had to wait dozens of years before the reason for his handicap was revealed. <BR/><BR/>I have been taught (or brainwashed, as you prefer :) that there are three possible reasons for any person's disease: 1) as a result of sin; 2) so that eventual healing can glorify God; 3) so that the individual and those around him/her can grow in faith and virtue. <BR/><BR/>So, in your X+Y equation, the Y is faulty: Faith does not necessarily equal complete freedom from disease (or poverty, etc).<BR/><BR/>And your last question: Does understanding of the Bible require a 4yr theology degree? I should say that you folks on this blog are a good example of why that might not be a good idea. God's thoughts are far above ours; no man has ever been God's adviser. Don't be so arrogant as to think that you are in a position to accuse your Maker of injustice. (Rom. 9)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1146770642184785132006-05-04T15:24:00.000-04:002006-05-04T15:24:00.000-04:00Brother Danny,I finally had a chance to read throu...Brother Danny,<BR/><BR/>I finally had a chance to read through this entire blog. Very well done! I wish that Christians had responded and provided insight to this exact issue—why aren’t there massive healings today? The sad truth is that the only “healings” we see, like the ones mentioned in the New Testament, are unconfirmed testimonies. <BR/><BR/>Even today, as you aptly point out, we do not see amputee’s re-growing limbs. We do not observe blind people immediately seeing. What we see are people diagnosed with cancer, and then it disappears. Never suspecting a misdiagnosis. Or people with “bad backs” who are able to stand and jump for one evening, and the next day take their pain medication, and rest from the previous night’s exertion.<BR/><BR/>Think of the benefit to our health care system. And to other countries. Christian missionary healers would be welcome everywhere and by anyone. The spread of the Gospel would be like wildfire.<BR/><BR/>Why wouldn’t Christians want that? Why would their God require all this faith? Are they saying that the healings of the First Century made Christianity “too easy”? So God cut it out?<BR/><BR/>As to the New Covenant vs. the Old Covenant, this has always been tricky as to what is changed and what is not. All agree the food laws of Mosaic Law were abolished. Ask, “when?” and you get 12 different answers.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, good blog.DagoodShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04557451438888314932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1146767941161555452006-05-04T14:39:00.000-04:002006-05-04T14:39:00.000-04:00Danny,I'm glad I made you laugh, life needs more l...Danny,<BR/>I'm glad I made you laugh, life needs more laughter.<BR/><BR/>I admire how you (and some others on this site)address your topics so exhaustively. I write in dots, expecting others will connect them, doesn't always happen which is my fault. You make yourself very clear, you're an excellent communicator, you inspire me to be more attentive, which seems like a good thing.<BR/>cheers<BR/>paulpaulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04437206493901034134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1146759593681530182006-05-04T12:19:00.000-04:002006-05-04T12:19:00.000-04:00Paul,I almost pissed myself laughing at the next t...Paul,<BR/><BR/>I almost pissed myself laughing at the next to last sentence. It deserves a highlight:<BR/><B>You're "blinded by the wisdom of this age." Get over it, someone has to go to hell.</B><BR/><BR/>Good stuff!!!<BR/><BR/>I read Hebrews 11, and at this verse I did a "say-wha???":<BR/><B> 13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.</B><BR/><BR/>Abraham saw his son born! He and his descendents were rich! Noah saw the flood and the rainbow! Enoch walked with God! Cain was murdered by his brother, long before an Abrahamic covenant or "new" one was around, so you can't use him!<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry, but these examples are <B>awful!</B> These people got to see God confirm his covenant (supposedly) again and again!!!<BR/><BR/>Anyway, it's not your fault that the covenant is so hard to defend. That's why most Christians don't even bother anymore, and just withdraw into the "in the afterlife" issue, and ignore the <I>plethora</I> of Scriptures about it.nsflhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129382545589470620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1146755334595183522006-05-04T11:08:00.000-04:002006-05-04T11:08:00.000-04:00Danny,I hope I get some sort of prize for taking t...Danny,<BR/>I hope I get some sort of prize for taking the christian side in this discussion!<BR/><BR/>Okeedokee. I'm taking my cues from Hebrews 11. There's this whole list of people who God covenanted with, who never got what the covenant promised (so apparently you're not the first to observe the failed covenants). Yet, they still believed, why? After listing all these unkept promises the conclusion is v.40 "God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect." As best I can tell, the perspective is eternal vs. temporal (aka bait and switch). i.e., you'll get your healing, God will keep his covenant, if you keep the faith, just not right now. It's all very esoteric you see (or don't of course. it's all true, you're just not part of the inner circle). Face it, "the 'way' is narrow and hard and few find it," you're simply not one of the few, the "chosen" of a loving God. You're "blinded by the wisdom of this age." Get over it, someone has to go to hell.<BR/>Sorry Danny, I cannot come up with better...I tried, I even prayed.paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04437206493901034134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1146751778426561462006-05-04T10:09:00.000-04:002006-05-04T10:09:00.000-04:00Paul,So that we don't get sidetracked, let's focus...Paul,<BR/><BR/>So that we don't get sidetracked, let's focus on the premises and conclusions:<BR/>p1: God made a covenant with mankind<BR/>p2: This covenant includes provisions for bodily (and mental health)<BR/>p3: The "old" covenant was given to Abraham, sealed with circumcision, and man's end was kept through the law<BR/>p4: The "new" covenant was given through Jesus, sealed with Jesus' blood sacrifice, and man's end is kept "by grace through faith"<BR/>p5: The "new" covenant supercedes, subsumes, and surpasses the "old", with "better promises"<BR/><BR/>c1: Those who are in the "new" covenant <I>ought</I> to be kept free from disease, but are not, thus the covenant is flawed and/or failed.<BR/>c2: For those who follow the prescribed conditions of the covenant, since a covenant is defined by conditions and clauses, entered into by two parties, the party at fault must be God if the covenant is not kept<BR/>c3: The presence of disease and sickness and the fact of death by horrible, long-suffering illnesses <I>by those within the "body of Christ"</I> evidences that the covenant is not kept<BR/>c4: There is no covenant between God and the parties who claim that there is one<BR/><BR/>Now, please point to the specific premises and conclusions with which you find fault, and detail why.<BR/><BR/>All you have done is retreat into the inscrutable divinity argument: "we can't know what God is doing". <BR/><BR/>This directly contradicts <I>a revealed covenant</I>. That is the major point, which you are moving all around -- either God made a promise or God didn't. The conclusion is either that God didn't make a promise [because God doesn't exist] or that God <I>did</I>, but didn't keep up God's end.<BR/><BR/>What both Job and Paul [Romans 8-9] give us is the same drivel: "how can you question God"..."will the clay say to the potter"...? But, there would be no basis for questioning, for doubting, <I>if a specific contract had not been entered into</I><BR/><BR/>Paul said: <B>The ultimate covenant is that of salvation, which won't be fully realized till death.</B><BR/><BR/>That isn't the point. The point is, both the old and new covenants <I>included provisions, evidences, and specific, falsifiable promises <B>in this life</B></I>. Those promises are shown false by the evidence in reality: Christians [and Jews] die at the same rate of cancer and disease as everyone else. Contrary to the promises of the old and new covenant, contrary to the assertions of Scripture, contrary to the history of the Acts of the Apostles, God does not heal.nsflhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129382545589470620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1146744681374748772006-05-04T08:11:00.000-04:002006-05-04T08:11:00.000-04:00Bro Dan,If I am in pain and suffering...how can I ...Bro Dan,<BR/>If I am in pain and suffering...how can I call this the wrong motive? "...the point of this post, a reliable covenant..." As to the suffering there is the example of Job, he was given the opportunity to question God and concluded: "I know you can do all things, no plan of yours can be thwarted. You asked, 'who is this that obscures my councel without knowledge?' Surly I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. You said,'Listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you will answer me.' My ears had heard of you, but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes."Job 42:1-6 NIV. As to the covenant, it is broken by us not God. The fact that we are not utterly destroyed is mercy on the part of God. It's a matter of perspective...we don't have Gods.<BR/>The ultimate covenant is that of salvation, which won't be fully realized till death. Now we see as through a dark distorted piece of glass, then when face to face with God, just as with Job, it will all make sense. So now we continue on in faith, hope and love.paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04437206493901034134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1146736984854016142006-05-04T06:03:00.000-04:002006-05-04T06:03:00.000-04:00Paul,Obvious miracles don't happen for two reasons...Paul,<BR/><B>Obvious miracles don't happen for two reasons. One: ...'wrong motive'</B><BR/>If you are in pain, suffering, and dying, rotting away of cancer, and you are crying out to the God who promised to save you, make you whole, restore you, etc., to fulfill Its promises...how can you call this the "wrong motive"? That's the point of this post -- a covenant is a reliable agreement entered into by two parties. God doesn't appear to be holding up God's end of the bargain.<BR/><BR/><B>Two: God knows that faith pleases him, so he is giving people the ultimate opportunity to please him by not giving people any good reasons, one has to rely on faith.</B><BR/>That's pretty damn selfish of God, now isn't it? Besides, it goes back to the covenant -- did God promise it, or not? IF God were as you said, more caring about self-pleasure [Divine masturbation?] than the well-being of Its creatures, then:<BR/>1) some "God" you worship, indeed<BR/>2) why did God even make a covenant?nsflhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129382545589470620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1146686949399922292006-05-03T16:09:00.000-04:002006-05-03T16:09:00.000-04:00Jon,It is unhealthy to not doubt/question ones per...Jon,<BR/>It is unhealthy to not doubt/question ones perception of who an unknowable God is.paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04437206493901034134noreply@blogger.com