tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post116051673168787374..comments2024-03-25T17:35:02.238-04:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: Which is it? You Pick!Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1160760438040352692006-10-13T13:27:00.000-04:002006-10-13T13:27:00.000-04:00Hello John and all,I think Dave has the correct vi...Hello John and all,<BR/><BR/>I think Dave has the correct viewpoint about people blaming the Creator for the actions of deceptive and flawed humans. People have freewill and that means they are ultimately repsonsible for what they do and the resuslts of those deeds. To assert on one hand that religion is error prone and deceptive and then blame the Creator for the actions of human deceivers because they were given the freewill to deceive is logically flawed. I come across this argument regularly from people who think their bad luck or the actions of others should be blamed on "God," while never considering that they have already asserted that the texts and religions they oppose are the result of human deception and error. Consequently, religious leaders and founders are lying about their relationship to the Creator and the true sources and meaning of their canons. <BR/><BR/>To put this into the proper context, if someone tells lies about you, does that make you the liar? Ever heard of false witnesses and false prophets?<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/sevenstarhand/twospirits.html" REL="nofollow">Here is Wisdom !!</A>Seven Star Handhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15707393570093417590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1160595030068679012006-10-11T15:30:00.000-04:002006-10-11T15:30:00.000-04:00By the way Dave, one of my professors at Marquette...By the way Dave, one of my professors at Marquette University was Donald O'Keefe, and he argued that the Vatican Documents also allow for his fideism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1160588936374468782006-10-11T13:48:00.000-04:002006-10-11T13:48:00.000-04:00John W. Loftus wrote:> Oh, "wait just a minute, Lo...John W. Loftus wrote:<BR/><BR/>> Oh, "wait just a minute, Loftus," someone will say. "It's all man's fault." Really? Does God not share any of the blame at all...at all!<BR/><BR/>No, it isn't necessary that God be blamed for this particular difficulty, insofar as there is at least one proposed system (Catholicism - and to a large extent, Orthodoxy) which overcomes the objection. If indeed God intended to set up one Church (which is the biblical teaching after all; Protestants don't deny that but simply redefine it to an "invisible church"), then if certain Christians reject that set-up and go off and form their own little traditions of men and their mini-traditions, I dont see how that casts into doubt the original system which indeed held sway for 1500 years of Christian history.<BR/><BR/>So there is a real sense in which one can blame man rather than God for these things. All systems (even divinely-instituted ones) can be corrupted or rejected by men. It makes no sense to blame that on God. It is like saying that God made Satan a free creature, who then chose to reject God, and blaming God for that rather than Satan.<BR/><BR/>Why is it that you guys have to blame everything on God when it isn't even remotely logical or required in any sense to do so? I undersatand it is your obsession or complex, but at least try to display some semblance of sense and moderation in your excesses and grudges against the God you simultaneously claim does not exist.<BR/><BR/>But I don't expect to see that anytime soon. In the meantime I'll enjoy the humor of the illogical and irrational thinking.<BR/><BR/>Dave ArmstrongDave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1160588382522394232006-10-11T13:39:00.000-04:002006-10-11T13:39:00.000-04:00Precisely. This is one of the reasons (ultimately,...Precisely. This is one of the reasons (ultimately, theological relativism, doctrinal chaos, and ecclesiological anarchy) that Protestantism is far less plausible of a Christian option than Catholicism, and partially why I converted from the former to the latter. Most of these debates are internal divisions among Protestants. There is little question of where Catholics stand (or Orthodox, for that matter), on most of them. <BR/><BR/>Most of our allowed differences are in areas where one would hope and expect that there can still be discussion, because it involves some of the most mysterious, complex philosophical and theological topics, such as on predestination and free will, where Catholics can be Molinists or Thomists (I am a Molinist).<BR/><BR/>Apologetic method can also be a valid area of dispute, since method and approach does not involve absolute categories, but only pragmatic, prudential ones. I myself fall on that spectrum into what is called the evidentialist or broadly Thomist approach, over against the presuppositionalism of Calvinists and many fundamentalists.<BR/><BR/>Yet that is not entirely clear-cut, since my favorite Christian philosopher is Alvin Plantinga, who comes from an analytical perspective which has some affinities to presuppositionalism. He modifies it, however, to make it far less objectionable to my taste (and that of those he opposes, since he is immensely respected).<BR/><BR/>Dave ArmstrongDave Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07771661758539438173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1160585612664701462006-10-11T12:53:00.000-04:002006-10-11T12:53:00.000-04:00I don't see how the answer can't be: Some of these...<I>I don't see how the answer can't be: Some of these things will not be made clear until "End Times", but the ones directly leading to evil acts still have no excuse because: 1) All "four" or however many guesses (or any amount of possibly rational answers) don't lead to evil acts. 2) God says he will always leave a possible way to avoid evil</I><BR/><BR/>1) It's an <I>ad hoc</I> answer<BR/>2) If God is all-good and wants us to <B>know</B> things, why is there so much ambiguity in the source texts? The point sticks with the question of whether or not God does want that.<BR/>3) Will you admit that the Bible is not a "perfect revelation" on these ambiguous doctrines? Did God intend for it to be? If there are multiple views on multiple doctrines, then saying that the evil that results from this (fighting to establish one of those views as the dominant one) is somehow the fault of humans is silly -- if God is all-powerful and all-good, God <B>must</B> make the evil disappear by perfect revelation (rather than imperfect revelation). Therefore, God does not exist.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1160584162611178062006-10-11T12:29:00.000-04:002006-10-11T12:29:00.000-04:00I do think Catholicism totally solves this problem...I do think Catholicism totally solves this problem. Jesus gave us the gospel and it has been taught by His church ever since. It is a huge problem in every other brand of christianity and a major reason why I became Catholic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1160584000578978782006-10-11T12:26:00.000-04:002006-10-11T12:26:00.000-04:00"Either God was not clear in his revelation about ..."Either God was not clear in his revelation about these issues, or the Holy Spirit isn't doing his job in illuminating the truth of the Bible, or God doesn't care what Christians believe...<BR/><BR/>Oh, "wait just a minute, Loftus," someone will say. "It's all man's fault." Really? Does God not share any of the blame at all...at all!"<BR/><BR/>I don't see how the answer can't be: Some of these things will not be made clear until "End Times", but the ones directly leading to evil acts still have no excuse because: 1) All "four" or however many guesses (or any amount of possibly rational answers) don't lead to evil acts. 2) God says he will always leave a possible way to avoid evilAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1160577098925392362006-10-11T10:31:00.000-04:002006-10-11T10:31:00.000-04:00I should temper my previous claim. While the lack ...I should temper my previous claim. While the lack of obvious miracles in modernity is strong evidence that there is no God (assuming God wants us to believe he exists), there are options available to the theist to explain this strange fact. <BR/><BR/>Thinking about it more, I am less convinced I am right in my knee-jerk criticisms of Loftus.<BR/><BR/>I posted this over at Victor's blog to see what he thinks. He is usually pretty thoughtful on this stuff.Blue Devil Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12045468316613818510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1160576003195594892006-10-11T10:13:00.000-04:002006-10-11T10:13:00.000-04:00But BDK, as prup indicated and as I argued, what a...But BDK, as prup indicated and as I argued, what about all of the killing that took place because Christians disagreed? God knew this would happen. Why? And who exactly are the "chosen" you speak of here? <B>Who speaks for Christianity</B>. Here we have a former Catholic who still thinks it represents Christianity better than Protestantism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1160575319165143152006-10-11T10:01:00.000-04:002006-10-11T10:01:00.000-04:00I understand the rhetorical point, but this argume...I understand the rhetorical point, but this argument strategy is weak. People struggling to understand texts that they think God had some role in creating is not evidence that God doesn't exist. Those that struggle are chosen, as they are showing how seriously that take God's word. It doesn't matter which particular number of angels on the pin they end up believing in. They at least work to see the meaning of his words.Blue Devil Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12045468316613818510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1160568420635901342006-10-11T08:07:00.000-04:002006-10-11T08:07:00.000-04:00BDK,I think you're missing the point that whereas ...BDK,<BR/><BR/>I think you're missing the point that whereas people admit they are not infallible, they also claim God is.nsflhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04129382545589470620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1160545190036897932006-10-11T01:39:00.000-04:002006-10-11T01:39:00.000-04:00How does pointing out confusion not help to underm...How does pointing out confusion not help to undermine the claim 'God is not the author of confusion'?Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1160544908040085512006-10-11T01:35:00.000-04:002006-10-11T01:35:00.000-04:00Listen up Blue Devil, this is not a problem for at...Listen up Blue Devil, this is not a problem for atheists, because disagreements are expected. Read the options I gave at the beginning. Which option do you prefer here? Make a decision, okay?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1160544100899895792006-10-11T01:21:00.000-04:002006-10-11T01:21:00.000-04:00Pointing out disagreements to undermine a theory i...Pointing out disagreements to undermine a theory is a Creatinist tactic I hope skeptics don't stoop to. Dawkins vs Gould. Churchland vs Fodor. String theory versus whatever.Blue Devil Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12045468316613818510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1160540716835744682006-10-11T00:25:00.000-04:002006-10-11T00:25:00.000-04:00Reading Four Views of Hell was one of the things t...Reading Four Views of Hell was one of the things that led me out of the church. I figured if four theologians couldn't agree on hell then there probably wasn't any truth to it any way.Theresahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06500963592758243607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1160532398200508822006-10-10T22:06:00.000-04:002006-10-10T22:06:00.000-04:00Excellent. I love this.2000 years of christian his...Excellent. I love this.<BR/>2000 years of christian history, 1000's of denominations and 10's of 1000's of commentaries with different viewpoints are a testimony to the total humanity of biblical authorship or complete ineptness or outright intentional trickery of the divine author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1160517079107329542006-10-10T17:51:00.000-04:002006-10-10T17:51:00.000-04:00Oh, "wait just a minute, Loftus," someone will say...Oh, "wait just a minute, Loftus," someone will say. <I>"It's all man's fault."</I> Really? Does God not share any of the blame at all...at all!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com