tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post4455111117151053252..comments2024-03-25T17:35:02.238-04:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: Reasonable Doubt about The Atonement: PsychopathyUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger64125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-20340403522022408962008-09-24T13:15:00.000-04:002008-09-24T13:15:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11609575419370484487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-11522965568068643942007-09-25T14:07:00.000-04:002007-09-25T14:07:00.000-04:00Yes Lee I may not find something in the bible to d...Yes Lee I may not find something in the bible to directly support that view, but it also was in response to how Mormons handle this problem. There are several verses in the BOM and other scriptures we use that do handle this problem. I actually am looking also at how other Christians are answering this problem. Even though they hold similar belief, they stop short of declaring who God may or may not save, leaving judgment to Him. i see some holes there and some things that don't add up so I myself am trying to clear up the belief better.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-72726080439346868082007-09-25T13:01:00.000-04:002007-09-25T13:01:00.000-04:00Lee,No one's saying God will save babies or psycho...Lee,<BR/><BR/>No one's saying God will save babies or psychopaths by default. What's being said is that there's no point in taking a hard line and saying they will be saved or they won't be saved because we don't have enough information to make that call. Hence, we leave the decision with God.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-19835265255844771552007-09-25T09:13:00.000-04:002007-09-25T09:13:00.000-04:00Hi guys,I forgot to mention that the principle tha...Hi guys,<BR/>I forgot to mention that the principle that you are using to justify god saving those that are incapable can be used to show the he wouldn't let evil exist if he existed.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-15003182001903894702007-09-25T05:36:00.000-04:002007-09-25T05:36:00.000-04:00Hi richdurrant,first, I don't think the scripture ...Hi richdurrant,<BR/>first, I don't think the scripture supports your view, and while I haven't seen any evangelistas or fundamentalistas chime in, I don't think they would agree with you, but I can't speak for them. I do believe however, that they would do scriptural gymnastics to somehow save face for god.<BR/><BR/>If I stipulate that god would save anyone he wants to, then I would say that there are a broad category of people that should be saved that are not obvious to us, and I still say that this view devalues the atonement and the crucifixion to the point that we have to wonder why it was necessary. I would argue anyone that doesn't believe in God, if god is real, is crazy (the "fool" in his heart, yada yada) and incompetent to decide. Since that is the case, If god can save anyone he wants to, why not save 'em all? Why not create a policy of remediation and repair instead of punitive. Wouldn't you all say that atheists are incompetent to decide if god exists or not?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-90305846879727973722007-09-25T05:15:00.000-04:002007-09-25T05:15:00.000-04:00Yes Lee, Since you have to have the ability to und...Yes Lee,<BR/> Since you have to have the ability to understand right from wrong before you can be accountable for your sins, those who are not accountable are covered by the atonement and return to heaven.<BR/><BR/>"it’s out of our control no matter how we look at it. Judgment is God’s. Not. Ours."<BR/><BR/>Yes but can someone be judged unable to stand trial by reason of accountability?<BR/><BR/>"He can give it whomever He wants. Babies and psychopaths included."<BR/><BR/>So can he also then decide not to save one who does everything he asks of us? They are baptized, confess Jesus is the lord, follow the commandments, repent, go to church, ect.., and after all of that God can decide not to save them? If this is the case I don't see how you could call such a God just. If this isn't the case then there must be a specific method by which I can be saved, and if that includes accountability then if I am mentally unable to understand the gospel and am not accountable for sin then there must be some kind of exception to the rule. We have a conflict here in that you are apparently able to know when you are saved (I can't remember who said that but it was a Christian maybe in another thread) except for cases like babies and psychopaths we just don't know. It seems that we should either know about who can be saved, or we have no idea and it is up to God to decide regardless of how we act here. Of coarse the later is against scripture because we are told things to do for our salvation. If those who are found without sin at the last day are to be saved, then if someone is not held accountable for there sin then they would be included in the found without sin and should be saved. If not I don't see how condemning them is "doing the right thing."<BR/>Jason your are essentially saying this in your last comment without committing to an answer, just leave it up to God, which I agree with, but if God will do the right thing and these are people who can't be accountable for sin, the right thing would be salvation not condemnation right?Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-63470726925861300572007-09-24T02:23:00.000-04:002007-09-24T02:23:00.000-04:00Hi Lee,“if that is the case then the psychopath, a...Hi Lee,<BR/><BR/><I>“if that is the case then the psychopath, aborted "fetuses" (there are quite a lot of naturally aborted "fetuses"), and the "lost jungle tribes" are all condemned. They can only be saved by Jesus's grace.”</I><BR/><BR/>It's no different then anyone else, Christians included.<BR/><BR/>Eph 2:8 <I>“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: <B>it is the gift of God:</B> Not of works, lest any man should boast.”</I><BR/><BR/><I>“Nowhere is this problem specifically addressed, not even in that "kids made clean" verse you keep pushing. Like I said, I am sure that being made ritually clean is not grounds for salvation.”</I><BR/><BR/>It has been addressed - just not in the way you want: 'God will do the right thing.' <BR/><BR/>Ritual cleansing is done through baptism. Baptism is a requirement for salvation. Mark 16:16 <I>“He that believeth and is <B>baptized shall be saved…”</B></I><BR/><BR/><I>“Scriptural evidence better supports the assertion that they are not saved.”</I><BR/><BR/>Where?<BR/><BR/><I>“They had no idea that the psychopath existed and evidently didn't think about babies.”</I><BR/><BR/>Or, better yet, maybe we’re not told about what God does with psychopaths or babies because in the grand scheme of things, it’s out of our control no matter how we look at it. Judgment is God’s. Not. Ours.<BR/><BR/><I>“So if we are qualified to say that god will do the right thing and save the 'incapable', the right thing by whose standards? Ours or His?”</I><BR/><BR/>His.<BR/><BR/><I>"If we are going to say that we don't know what god will do with babies and the psychopath, then we have fundamentally weakened the concept of the Atonement and Original Sin. It was supposed to be the way to salvation for everyone, a reconciliation with god.</I><BR/><BR/>Original Sin isn’t a Biblically-taught doctrine and salvation, as already mentioned, is a “gift from God”. He can give it whomever He wants. Babies and psychopaths included.<BR/><BR/><I>“If we are going to say that god will do the right thing in principle by saving babies and the psychpath then we have set a precedent to say that we are competent to judge when god would do the right thing.”</I><BR/><BR/>Agreed. But then no one’s said God will save babies or the crazies. What has been said over and over again is that we don’t have enough information, nor are we supposed to, to know how God is going to judge babies or psychopaths. It’s up to Him and Him alone.<BR/><BR/><I>“If we are going to say that god will not save the psychopath or baby..."</I><BR/><BR/>Then it’s a good thing no one’s said God won’t save the psychopath or baby.<BR/><BR/><I>“In any case, I think the problem of unsaved babies, and the psychopath, is an unhandled exception that halts the system.”</I><BR/><BR/>It halts the system only if you ignore the Biblical evidence. Children are covered by their parents until they reach an age of accountability and psychopaths aren’t judged under the law since they’re incapable of understanding the law. By passing judgment in either case, people are denying or forcing the mercy of God. The simplest and most Biblically agreeable task is to simply “Judge not…”. End of story.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-66063237539838847772007-09-23T01:15:00.000-04:002007-09-23T01:15:00.000-04:00Hi richdurrant,I presume you are Mormon. If thats...Hi richdurrant,<BR/>I presume you are Mormon. If thats the case, can you tell us how Mormons handle this problem?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-38992587615093100622007-09-22T22:03:00.000-04:002007-09-22T22:03:00.000-04:00If your not accountable for your sins then how is ...If your not accountable for your sins then how is it possible to be condemned for sins you are not accountable fot? And if you are not held accountable for sin, why are you born accountable for the original sin? I don't see how that is possible, that accountability has one exception, original sin. If we are accountable for original sin, then are we accountable for our parents' sins?Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-6838424778754558232007-09-21T07:02:00.000-04:002007-09-21T07:02:00.000-04:00Hi Jason,I'm really doing my homework on this arti...Hi Jason,<BR/>I'm really doing my homework on this article. Thanks for the challenge. I looked at your website to get a grip on where you are coming from.<BR/><BR/>anyway, in my POV the problem with having the law written on the heart is that it is a kind of universal moral law. Not good enough to save us but good enough to condemn. It comes from being made in the image of god, and being condemned by adams act.<BR/><BR/>if that is the case then the psychopath, aborted "fetuses" (there are quite a lot of naturally aborted "fetuses"), and the "lost jungle tribes" are all condemned. They can only be saved by Jesus's grace. Now with that said, I have been looking at sites that have been bending over backwords to come up with a workaround for the 'incapable' and it seems to all boil down to something link an interpretation about Davids baby and a belief that god will do the right thing. Nowhere is this problem specifically addressed, not even in that "kids made clean" verse you keep pushing. Like I said, I am sure that being made ritually clean is not grounds for salvation. Scriptural evidence better supports the assertion that they are not saved. And in fact I think the originator of this doctrine didn't think it through well enough. They had no idea that the psychopath existed and evidently didn't think about babies. Think about it, they knew about 'demon possessed' people (scizoprhenics?) and only said they could be cast out. They don't get 'cast out' these days.<BR/><BR/>So if we are qualified to say that god will do the right thing and save the 'incapable', the right thing by whose standards? Ours or His? I see this view as contradicting the christian PoE view that even the rape and murder of children work out for the greater good but we can't know how that happens, and also that good is defined by god and we can't understand that either, and that is why so many acts of god look evil to us. <BR/><BR/>If we are going to say that we don't know what god will do with babies and the psychopath, then we have fundamentally weakened the concept of the Atonement and Original Sin. It was supposed to be the way to salvation for everyone, a reconciliation with god.<BR/><BR/>If we are going to say that god will do the right thing in principle by saving babies and the psychpath then we have set a precedent to say that we are competent to judge when god would do the right thing. Using that warrant I will say that raping and murdering children is not the right thing and does not lead to the greater good therefore the POE cancels god out. <BR/><BR/>If we are going to say that god will not save the psychopath or baby, then most people, except maybe michael ejercito, would find that unconscionable, we can add to our list of PoE grievances, and we have fundamentally weakened the concept of the Atonement and Original Sin because it was supposed to be the way to salvation for everyone, a reconciliation with god.<BR/><BR/>In any case, I think the problem of unsaved babies, and the psychopath, is an unhandled exception that halts the system.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-6408722394721587892007-09-21T05:33:00.000-04:002007-09-21T05:33:00.000-04:00Here's another question for those who believe we a...Here's another question for those who believe we are born with the original sin. Why does the atonement not cover the original sin? Does this mean that Adam and Eve were never forgiven of that original sin? If that is true then the atonement may not cover every sin, even if we repent.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-11678758995496482182007-09-20T22:34:00.000-04:002007-09-20T22:34:00.000-04:00Hi Lee,...what exactly is the problem with the 'la...Hi Lee,<BR/><BR/>...what exactly is the problem with the 'law written on hearts' bit...?Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-71428152927867020312007-09-20T20:26:00.000-04:002007-09-20T20:26:00.000-04:00Joseph, no worries, It's hard to offend meJoseph, no worries, It's hard to offend meRichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-42493203944427094402007-09-20T18:03:00.000-04:002007-09-20T18:03:00.000-04:00Rich, no disrespect intended...just idle conjectur...Rich, no disrespect intended...just idle conjecture on my part. Glad to have you engaging in conversation with us! I enjoy reading your thoughtful exchanges with Lee. <BR/><BR/>Jason, you said: "As I've been saying, I don't know and no one knows what the final judgment will be for this subset of people. It's no different then infants. We just don't know." But we do know that murder, rape, theft are all wrong and worthy of some kind of punishment, don't we? The Biblical God can't just overlook it--it is inconsistent with his justice. Yahweh even commanded that innocent animals be put to death in under the Law of Moses if they were mixed up in funny business, even incidentally. Seems like the pendulum always swings in favor of punishment, at least from an OT perspective.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07058424176773515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-38227279882795828902007-09-20T17:59:00.000-04:002007-09-20T17:59:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07058424176773515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-612454278054811682007-09-20T16:31:00.000-04:002007-09-20T16:31:00.000-04:00"I just don't see how you can get around that "god..."I just don't see how you can get around that "gods law is written on our hearts" stuff. That supports the Universal morality that christians talk about."<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure I agree 100% with this so I would have to better understand that principle before I commit to it.<BR/><BR/>"An off the cuff response can land me in trouble, especially with a guy like you."<BR/><BR/>Don't sweat it, I let the red flags from the HG help me know whether you're in trouble or not;)Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-25433842949894515362007-09-20T15:23:00.000-04:002007-09-20T15:23:00.000-04:00Hi rich,thanks for the encouragement. I think I s...Hi rich,<BR/>thanks for the encouragement. I think I speak for all of us when I say this is a labor of love. We deal with a lot of sophisticated people and issues. For both sides, it takes time to think things through, sort though values, beliefs and check for consistency.<BR/><BR/>An off the cuff response can land me in trouble, especially with a guy like you.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-79731788613636510762007-09-20T14:39:00.000-04:002007-09-20T14:39:00.000-04:00Hi Jason, Rich,I just don't see how you can get ar...Hi Jason, Rich,<BR/>I just don't see how you can get around that "gods law is written on our hearts" stuff. That supports the Universal morality that christians talk about. <BR/><BR/>If its not true, where does the Universal morality fit in?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-90947053687441980362007-09-20T14:26:00.000-04:002007-09-20T14:26:00.000-04:00The atonement covers all sin for everyone. Whether...The atonement covers all sin for everyone. Whether you choose to repent and be forgiven of your sins is up to you. Those who are not accountable for their sin are covered by the atonement also. Sin is sin regardless of the knowledge one has. Accountability comes into play once you gain that knowledge, hence the term accountability. Those who don't understand sin, infants, little children, those without sufficient mental capacity, are not accountable to God for sin because of their lack of ability to understand right and wrong.<BR/><BR/>And Joseph, Lee was right, there are other reasons for some believers lack of comments lately. For me it has been time. The quality of posts here is quite good I just can't comment on all of them, I wish I could though.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-55021534829669876852007-09-20T09:51:00.000-04:002007-09-20T09:51:00.000-04:00Joseph said: Then, it would be better for people n...Joseph said: <I>Then, it would be better for people never to hear about Jesus or read the Scriptures, wouldn't it?"</I><BR/><BR/>There is no 'better'. Either you know about God, etc. and are judged (worthy or unworthy) or you don't know about God and aren't judged. Either way, the ultimate fate of the unworthy and the latter is death.<BR/><BR/><I>"From a Christian perspective, do you really think that a psychopath wouldn't be judged by a just God for doing things that are objectively wrong? Murder, rape, theft will all go unpunished because the psychopath simply doesn't recognize them as wrong?"</I><BR/><BR/>As I've been saying, I don't know and no one knows what the final judgment will be for this subset of people. It's no different then infants. We just don't know.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13029527163229375153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-19525700097876241752007-09-20T00:55:00.000-04:002007-09-20T00:55:00.000-04:00Hi Joseph,thats a tempting conclusion, but I would...Hi Joseph,<BR/>thats a tempting conclusion, but I wouldn't commit to it. There could be other reasons.<BR/><BR/>keep up the good work!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-18667318004304555812007-09-20T00:24:00.000-04:002007-09-20T00:24:00.000-04:00"I presume he has a bulletproof argument refuting ..."I presume he has a bulletproof argument refuting it. I'd like to see it." The Christians evangelicals/fundamentalists have been a little silent around here lately. Hmmmm, do you think it has anything to do with the quality of the articles? I'd love to see some thoughtful response to mine on the Messianic prophecies or John's latest on Scriptural inconsistencies.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07058424176773515878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-10509269712239124262007-09-19T23:30:00.000-04:002007-09-19T23:30:00.000-04:00Hi John,thanks for the encouragement, I was wonder...Hi John,<BR/>thanks for the encouragement, I was wondering if I had bitten off more that I could chew.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-62103078692557684112007-09-19T23:29:00.000-04:002007-09-19T23:29:00.000-04:00Hi Joseph,exactly, and it minimizes adams sin in t...Hi Joseph,<BR/>exactly, and it minimizes adams sin in the garden and the atonement. There's doesn't seem to be any way out of this for the christian. <BR/><BR/>I am waiting for IrishFarmer to tell me what it is about this article that led to his <A HREF="http://exposingatheism.blogspot.com/2007/09/debunking-christianity-is-being-demoted.html" REL="nofollow">'demotion'</A> of DC on his blog. I presume he has a bulletproof argument refuting it. I'd like to see it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-12664122372777874832007-09-19T19:56:00.000-04:002007-09-19T19:56:00.000-04:00"So, like I've said before, the unwilfull lack of ..."So, like I've said before, the unwilfull lack of knowledge isn't grounds to condemn. It is however grounds to commit their judgment into the hands of God. We simply don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt what their fate will be."<BR/><BR/>Interesting discussion. Then, it would be better for people never to hear about Jesus or read the Scriptures, wouldn't it? Otherwise, would be held accountable for what they hear and be worse off than they were before. From a Christian perspective, do you really think that a psychopath wouldn't be judged by a just God for doing things that are objectively wrong? Murder, rape, theft will all go unpunished because the psychopath simply doesn't recognize them as wrong? Sounds a little f-d up to me.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07058424176773515878noreply@blogger.com