tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post7210476564946320126..comments2024-03-25T17:35:02.238-04:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: Was Jesus a Witch?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-42437855139930311032009-04-06T15:04:00.000-04:002009-04-06T15:04:00.000-04:00For well documented answers to your questions, Wal...For well documented answers to your questions, <B>Walter Burkert</B> is a master on this subject and the two following books (published by Harvard University Press and sold at a discount by Amazon) are two great masterful surveys to start with.<BR/><BR/><B>Ancient Mystery Cults (Carl Newell Jackson Lectures)</B><BR/><BR/>From the back cover:<BR/>[The foremost historian of Greek religion provides the first comprehensive, comparative study of a little-known aspect of ancient religious beliefs and practices. Secret mystery cults flourished within the larger culture of the public religion of Greece and Rome for roughly a thousand years. This book is neither a history nor a survey but a comparative phenomenology. Concentrating on five major cults. In defining the mysteries and describing their rituals, membership, organization, and dissemination, Walter Burkert displays the remarkable erudition we have come to expect of him; he also shows sensitivity and sympathy in interpreting the experiences and motivations of the devotees.] <BR/><BR/>And <BR/><B>Greek Religion: Archaic and Classical</B><BR/><BR/>Well stated review by a reviewer at Amazon: <BR/><BR/>“I recommend this book as an introduction for everybody who is interested in this daunting subject. Daunting, because it was forbidden for the initiated to speak about the mystery. Nearly everything we know (besides artwork - Athens - architectural sites) came to us indirectly (e.g. the formidable play 'Bakchai' by Euripides).<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, all sanctuaries were destroyed after the imperial decrees (391/392) of Theodosius the Great prohibiting all pagan cults.<BR/><BR/>The author analyses 5 mystery cults : Eleusis, Meter, Isis, Mithras, and the Dionysian and Bacchian mysteries.<BR/><BR/>As we can learn from the work of Karl Kerenyi, the influence of Eleusis on Christianity should not be underestimated. Apparently, through the myth of Demeter/Persephone, the initiated were 'shown' that there was life after death. Plato was initiated (as nearly all Roman emperors) and as Hannah Ahrendt tells us in her book 'The origins of Totalitarianism', Plato must be considered as one of the fathers of the Christian creed.<BR/><BR/>For the mysteries of Mithras, I recommend the work of J. Vermaseren. <BR/><BR/>As Burkert states, most of the mysteries were expensive clubs and the experience was purely individual. That is the reason why they disappeared so rapidly: they lacked any lasting organization as the Christian Church. Another reason for Burkert was the inclusion of the family as the basic unit of piety in Christianity. The Church got the upper hand for demographic reasons.<BR/><BR/>Contrary to Burkert, we know from the work of Kerenyi on Eleusis that the taking of drugs (the kykeon) was important (it was taken after a longer period of fasting).<BR/>Burkert gives us a very good summary indeed.”Harry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-16372987832083090782009-04-06T01:32:00.000-04:002009-04-06T01:32:00.000-04:00I would be curious to know if anyone thinks Christ...I would be curious to know if anyone thinks Christianity arose from mystery religions. I'm familiar with Osiris-Dionysus and the book "The Jesus Mysteries" by Freke and Gandy, which I wrote some commentary on here: (http://schoonmaker.wordpress.com/category/jesus/). However, Christians argue the following: <BR/><BR/>1) Most mystery religions are dated later than the New Testament, making mystery theology and symbolism dependent on Christianity. <BR/>2) There is no evidence of mystery religions existing in 1st century Palestine. <BR/><BR/>If you think Christianity is a rehash of mystery religions, why do you think this is the case?Sarah Schoonmakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14013763189170346618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-67246092455113226692009-04-01T00:49:00.000-04:002009-04-01T00:49:00.000-04:00Harry,Morton Smith??? Wasn't he that homosexual wh...Harry,<BR/><BR/>Morton Smith??? Wasn't he that homosexual who faked a supposedly lost book condoning homosexuality???<BR/><BR/>Anyway, back to the point...Personally I've seen healings Harry, we've gone over this before. I've experienced healings also...Evan told me what a certain condition was that I had some years ago...Those aren't any problems neither is it anything I obsess over...<BR/><BR/>So far as Graham, since you've watched Graham for over 40 years, has he ever once during that time prayed for anyone's healing specifically? Has he ever called anyone or has anyone ever communicated to him that they had an ailment that they wanted healed??? You tell me. That might be why you never witnessed a healing by his ministry.<BR/><BR/>So far as Hinn, he's certainly the exception to the rule in my book. I see nothing there that would make me glorify Christ in my opinion, so he's not tooo sterling of an example...<BR/><BR/>So far as what Jesus did with this blind man's eyes...did he pray for the man at all???<BR/><BR/>LaterDistrict Supt. Harvey Burnetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15315686602819371111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-71853588859761237742009-03-31T22:43:00.000-04:002009-03-31T22:43:00.000-04:00So, Harvey, in the end simply praying to God did n...So, Harvey, in the end simply praying to God did nothing with these two examples. Little wonder no one is healed expect as only Harvey knows of.<BR/><BR/>This figure of Jesus in the Gospels would be more at home in <I>Harry Potter</I> series than what I see as Benny Hinn healing ministry (He never spit in the blind eyes).<BR/><BR/>So why does Benny Hinn heal while Billy Graham can not? I’ve followed <I>The Hour of Decision</I> for 40 years and I NEVER saw anyone “Healed” at any of his crusades. <BR/><BR/>Even Hinn has been studied in long term follow ups where the “healed” cancer believer dies later only to me never mentioned by Hinn again.<BR/><BR/>Again, Harvey, why have you not spit in blind peoples eyes like Jesus did to heal them? Is this too much like magic?<BR/><BR/>As Morton Smith has pointed out: Your religion is another persons magic and vice-versa.Harry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-40192758535501543792009-03-30T17:43:00.000-04:002009-03-30T17:43:00.000-04:00Harry,If you're asking me for the rationale of Jes...Harry,<BR/><BR/>If you're asking me for the rationale of Jesus during healing the blind with spit and mud (clay) There are a host of "types" that are fulfilled in the event and his actions, and as the post is not about that I won't elaborate. <BR/><BR/>I will say however that in neither of the Mark and John texts were the actions of Jesus described as being the acts of a "magician". Not even by the questioning enemy (John 9) <BR/><BR/>They questioned whether he was a "sinner" or a true follower of God and you would think they would run the gambit and include "magic" as a choice. <BR/><BR/>Maybe these "superstitious" persons, as you guys claim, knew that "magic" wasn't real or an option in healing this man confirmed to have been previously blind...This seriously debunks both you and John's argument to the contrary...A "superstitious" people would have claimed "magic" for every event and especially this one...but they don't. <BR/><BR/>That would have been the perfect place to introduce such language as we see said of BarJesus in Acts BUT it's missing...Why? Because "magic" wasn't a viable option for the works of Jesus.<BR/><BR/>What I see is an agenda by the authors of the article no more no less and certainly not less than fanciful conjecture with no support...Should I say Da Vinci Code? <BR/><BR/>Later Harry.District Supt. Harvey Burnetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15315686602819371111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-4849870738756423192009-03-30T16:57:00.000-04:002009-03-30T16:57:00.000-04:00Harvey,I didn't write the article I just posted i...Harvey,<BR/><BR/>I didn't write the article I just posted it. <B>I introduced it as a question and not a fact.</B><BR/><BR/>My point on Josephus is entirely different; I feel the whole testimony is forged.<BR/><BR/>Harvey, based simply on the acts of Jesus in the two passages I quoted (Mark 8 and John 9) have you or your church spit in blind people’s eye to heal them? How about spit mixed with dirt to make mud and them stuffed it in their eyes? Why have you not done this? Are you scared of a law suited?<BR/><BR/>Since Jesus did it himself, why not you and your Pentecostal church? Why didn't Jesus simply heal the or heal them with a simple prayer to the Father?<BR/><BR/><B>My be, Harvey, Jesus could have used the wart of a toad and the eye of a newt to heal with since it as good a spit and mud!</B><BR/><BR/>Stay tuned!Harry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-12481415537770688872009-03-29T21:16:00.000-04:002009-03-29T21:16:00.000-04:00Hey, Harry, if You're atill around, here's a link ...Hey, Harry, <BR/><BR/>if You're atill around, <A HREF="http://arturovasquez.wordpress.com/2009/03/26/finding-folk-orthodoxy/" REL="nofollow">here's</A> a link that might interest You personally ...The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-24562294384935342322009-03-29T19:29:00.000-04:002009-03-29T19:29:00.000-04:00Harry,And I suppose you forgot about the other "Je...Harry,<BR/><BR/>And I suppose you forgot about the other "Jesus" of the bible who lived during the same times that was admittedly a magician or sourcerer? Remember BarJesus? (Acts 13:6-11)<BR/><BR/>I mean you guys make all kinds of fanciful leaps with information when you believe it blosters your cause. Then when the Christian makes relationships with the information (that actually make sense) you give him all sorts of grief...<BR/><BR/>All I'm saying is approach it all evenly. Be as critical with that bowl as you are with Josephus or Tacitus. I might say at that time that these guys have something I should listen to. Until then it's all smoke and mirrors.District Supt. Harvey Burnetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15315686602819371111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-46462717489173547322009-03-29T00:51:00.000-04:002009-03-29T00:51:00.000-04:00Harvey: Harry you've spent so much time trying to ...Harvey: <I>Harry you've spent so much time trying to convince the populous that Josephus never mentions Jesus of the bible that u should be ashamed to suggest that this does.</I> <BR/><BR/>Harvey, I have not finished with Josephus yet and the remarks about Jesus. Stay tuned!Harry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-3402362186110732972009-03-28T22:09:00.000-04:002009-03-28T22:09:00.000-04:00Evan, in my post I didn't commit that double stand...Evan, in my post I didn't commit that double standard. The bowl fits in nicely with the culture of Alexandria at the time.Brad Haggardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14814856985147330634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-15913225339580142532009-03-28T21:08:00.000-04:002009-03-28T21:08:00.000-04:00Harry,"If the word "Christ" refers to the Biblical...Harry,<BR/><BR/><I>"If the word "Christ" refers to the Biblical Jesus Christ, <B>as is speculated</B>, then the discovery may provide evidence that Christianity and paganism at times intertwined in the ancient world."</I><BR/><BR/>Why is it always so "speculated" by the skeptics and atheists that "Christ" refers specifically to the Jesus of the bible when the refrences could be damaging to Christianity, while at the same time, when Christians produce evidence of writings from individuals such as Josephus and Pliny it's always ambiguous or unclear who was being referenced. <BR/><BR/>Harry you've spent so much time trying to convince the populous that Josephus never mentions Jesus of the bible that u should be ashamed to suggest that this does. <BR/><BR/>I believe evan has an correct assessment only in reverse.<BR/><BR/>LaterDistrict Supt. Harvey Burnetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15315686602819371111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-89008017208616589512009-03-28T19:44:00.000-04:002009-03-28T19:44:00.000-04:00I remeber that post Evan: It was great!I wonder w...I remeber that post Evan: It was great!<BR/><BR/>I wonder why, if Jesus is the example, why Benny Hinn does not spit in peoples eyes also...hum(I have yet to see him heal a totally blind person. Mybe spitting in their eyes might help or get him in a lawsuit!)Harry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-594455560239480702009-03-28T18:50:00.000-04:002009-03-28T18:50:00.000-04:00Harry, sounds a lot like some other miracle worker...Harry, sounds a lot like some other <A HREF="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2008/03/historical-reliability.html" REL="nofollow">miracle workers</A> of the time.Evanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14299188458940897810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-29118211607971150642009-03-28T16:41:00.000-04:002009-03-28T16:41:00.000-04:00Evan,This is a great example of how the human mind...Evan,<BR/><BR/>This is a great example of how the human mind invents and defends want it calls religion.<BR/><BR/><STRONG>The fact that Jesus must, at times, spit in blind eyes or spit on the ground making clay to be place in the bind’s eyes for healing has more in common with witchcraft and sorcery than with what we know as Christianity today.<BR/></STRONG><BR/>As a few examples in the Gospels we find these oddities:<BR/><BR/><EM>22 And they came to Bethsaida. And they brought a blind man to Jesus and implored Him to touch him. 23 Taking the blind man by the hand, He brought him out of the village; and after spitting on his eyes and laying His hands on him, He asked him, “Do you see anything?” 24 And he looked up and said, “I see men, for I see them like trees, walking around.” 25 Then again He laid His hands on his eyes; and he looked intently and was restored, and began to see everything clearly. 26 And He sent him to his home, saying, “Do not even enter the village.” Mark 8<BR/><BR/></EM>And again in John 9:<BR/><BR/><EM>1 As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth. 2 And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?” 3 Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4 “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work. 5 “While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.” 6 When He had said this, He spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and applied the clay to his eyes, 7 and said to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which is translated, Sent). So he went away and washed, and came back seeing.<BR/></EM>Harry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-89498598368341752202009-03-28T13:25:00.000-04:002009-03-28T13:25:00.000-04:00X, I find it interesting that when a historical do...X, I find it interesting that when a historical document uses "Chrestus" it's proof of the historical Jesus, but when a bowl uses it to describe a magician who is known before the historical period of Jesus, it's just nothing.<BR/><BR/>Nice double standard.Evanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14299188458940897810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-19580918487382253762009-03-28T10:31:00.000-04:002009-03-28T10:31:00.000-04:00x,That article is interesting, but we have other e...x,<BR/><BR/>That article is interesting, but we have other examples of Jesus' name being used in incantations around that time. We have some magic scrolls where Jesus is listed among a list of all the deities that the writer could think of. It was like they were trying to cover all their bases. So it at least can fit in with the history we have of that area. And also, "Chrestus" could be a mispronunciation of "Christos". It looks like it could go either way.<BR/><BR/>But I don't want to get my info from Discovery, unless it's Survivorman ;-)Brad Haggardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14814856985147330634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-90022790529512934152009-03-28T10:23:00.000-04:002009-03-28T10:23:00.000-04:00Thanks for the link. This is interesting.Thanks for the link. This is interesting.Brad Haggardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14814856985147330634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-17592208398228025462009-03-27T23:07:00.000-04:002009-03-27T23:07:00.000-04:00Holy crap! Sarah Silverman was right! Jesus really...Holy crap! Sarah Silverman was right! Jesus really is magic.Rev. Ouabachehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06750423741735453398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-2301555764087883032009-03-27T22:41:00.000-04:002009-03-27T22:41:00.000-04:00The reference for this article was taken for the S...The reference for this article was taken for the <EM>Society of Biblical Literature Forum</EM>:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.sbl-site.org/publications/SBLForum.aspx" REL="nofollow"><STRONG>LINKS TO ARTICLES IN THE NEWS AND ITEMS OF INTEREST</STRONG> </A>Harry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-51649071514603132252009-03-27T21:39:00.000-04:002009-03-27T21:39:00.000-04:00This is an interesting response to this bowlhttp:/...This is an interesting response to this bowl<BR/><BR/>http://gwynraven.livejournal.com/1063796.htmlUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11634377050739847996noreply@blogger.com