tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post7255398472134912329..comments2024-03-25T17:35:02.238-04:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: The Outsider Test for Faith VisualizedUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-16255556277824562702010-07-27T15:13:14.823-04:002010-07-27T15:13:14.823-04:00Lee,
I don't think that the main point is &qu...Lee,<br /><br />I don't think that the main point is "Why are there sinners?"<br /><br />The point is that there are sinners who are responsible for their actions. The wages of sin is death. Humans are thrown into the eternal punishment of Satan and His angels where they suffer for awhile and then go extinct. I don't see how this goes against justice. Are you saying the punishment doesn't fit the crime?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-3476829232961971432010-07-27T14:49:52.097-04:002010-07-27T14:49:52.097-04:00That's fine Cole. You just keep reasserting t...That's fine Cole. You just keep reasserting the same thing anyway (people sin because they are sinners) and keep avoiding the underlying question and it's implications (why are people sinners?).<br /><br />You've heard my understanding of what christianity teaches on this point, that people are sinners because the disobedience of adam and eve was imputed by god onto all of humanity. Therefore people can't help but to sin, because it's their nature to do so, and so need salvation from their sin and it's eternal consequence, which, according to your version of christianity, god offers to only some of those to whom he imputed the sin of adam and eve.<br /><br />I think that's abhorrent, but you just keep asserting that whatever god does is good no matter how much it doesn't make sense or offends our sense of justice.<br /><br />When god's "wisdom" and "goodness" can't be questioned, he can get away with anything.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-83221470544168229802010-07-27T10:34:09.782-04:002010-07-27T10:34:09.782-04:00Lee,
People supress the truth in unrighteousness ...Lee,<br /><br />People supress the truth in unrighteousness because they are sinners. Sinners left to themselves don't want to have anything to do with God. God is never obligated to be merciful to sinners who don't want to have anything to do with Him. He shows some people grace and passes over the vessels of destruction.<br /><br />Those of us who are responsible for our actions and reject God in the end get destruction. (annihilation)<br /><br />That's all I have time for right now.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-83737260982526255472010-07-27T08:23:28.763-04:002010-07-27T08:23:28.763-04:00Cole,
But again, why do "sinners (supposedly...Cole,<br /><br />But again, why do "sinners (supposedly) suppress the truth in unrighteousness"?<br /><br />According to christianity (one version at least), it's because they can't help it, because they've been born with a sin nature, dead in their sins, or as you put it, an inclination to sin. That being imputed to them by god because of what adam did.<br /><br />If people could help it, if it was possible for anyone to ever live a perfectly sinless life, then salvation would not be necessary, but optional.<br /><br />The point is, no one ever had a choice about being born with a sin nature from which they need salvation. All of humanity is born into the same boat, through no fault of their own.<br /><br />Ah, but you'll continue to assert that we are responsible for our own actions (I agree btw, but not for religious reasons). And yet you'll also assert that no one can avoid sinning "on their own" because they are born with an inclination to sin.<br /><br />All of that to say that we are just back to square one: Adam sinned, that sin was imputed to all of humanity, therefore all of humanity is in need of salvation to get to heaven. Those that are saved go to heaven, those that are not saved go to hell. Again the question: why are only some saved?<br /><br />Would you really say to those destined for the torment of hell: "Sorry, I know you never had a choice about being born into sin by god's decree and thus doomed to hell, but god nevertheless doesn't owe you his grace. Sucks to be you."<br /><br />That's basically what you are saying. These are your words:<br /><br />"<i>I think we are born with an inclination to sin but we can resist. The problem is that left to ourselves we don't want to resist and we end up sinning.</i>"<br /><br />"<i>The fact remains that if Christianity is true then God indeed has a special people that He saves. He doesn't save everyone.</i>"<br /><br />But you're right about saying that if christianity is true (at least the calvinist version) then god chooses some and not others. In fact Paul himself goes beyond that to state that god actually creates some to be saved and others to be damned (from Romans 9):<br /><br />"though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue,"<br /><br />"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."<br /><br />"So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."<br /><br />"You will say to me then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?' But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—"<br /><br />But then Paul supposedly (there is scholarly debate about whether Paul even wrote this letter) says in 1 Timothy 2:<br /><br />"it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."<br /><br />Then why the hell did he ever create "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction"?! It doesn't make sense. I know you've tried to explain away this verse already, but there's absolutely nothing in the text to indicate it's not to be taken at it's simple face value. I submit you've reinterpreted it to fit what you already believe.<br /><br />I also submit that you've watered down the concepts of original sin and hell to make them seem more palatable, if only to yourself.<br /><br />But let me ask you this: As a human being, who understands the experiences of pleasure and suffering, would you have ordered things this way?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-27425562314053626822010-07-27T08:01:54.435-04:002010-07-27T08:01:54.435-04:00When Christians talk about miracles they use verse...When Christians talk about miracles they use verses in the bible that says just ask God what you want in Jesus name and he said that he will do it. Why then when a person ask just that way nothing happens even though they would believe with their whole heart. People like Benny Hinn and Morris Cerullo, well known preachers talk about fantastic miracles but they are not shared with the whole world. They only talk about those fantastic miracles behind closed door meetings with their believers but proof is not given. Why doesn't Time, Newsweek, Life, or other well known magazines or even newspapers show them on front pages if they were real miracles? They would talk about how when they gave money to various ministries how God would miraculously give them such a huge amount of money and they would convince people to give so that they could get their miracles but it never happened to the average person. My own parents gave a lot to various ministries expecting a miracle to happen but nothing miraculous ever happened. It is all crock.napiashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03728722940876277817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-62732019523322750652010-07-26T20:50:57.961-04:002010-07-26T20:50:57.961-04:00Also Lee,
I don't know why God does it for so...Also Lee,<br /><br />I don't know why God does it for some and not others. I just know that God is under no obligation to be merciful to sinners who supress the truth in unrighteousness. Grace is never owed. It's no longer grace if it is. Whether it's common grace or saving grace. If God witholds either then He does nothing wrong. If the Bible is true then we shouldn't expect the whole world to be Christian. God doesn't extend saving grace to everyone only common grace. And even when God witholds His common grace to allow evil and suffering He does nothing wrong. Not only because grace is never owed but because He has morally justifiable reasons for doing so.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-85532321612622855822010-07-26T20:46:41.621-04:002010-07-26T20:46:41.621-04:00Maybe this will prove relevant to the discussion. ...Maybe <a href="http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/frederica/proof_of_miracles" rel="nofollow">this</a> will prove relevant to the discussion. (Or maybe it won't). Anyway...The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-27668584018563883922010-07-26T20:37:12.712-04:002010-07-26T20:37:12.712-04:00"I think we are born with an inclination to s..."<i>I think we are born with an inclination to sin but we can resist. The problem is that left to ourselves we don't want to resist and we end up sinning.</i>"<br /><br />Cole, at 1st glance these two statements completely contradict each other. 1st you state that it is possible for us not to sin. Then you say it's not possible for us not to sin...left on our own. By this, I assume you to mean w/o the intervening grace of god.<br /><br />Or are you simply saying that in theory it would be possible for us not to sin if we didn't have the "inclination" to do so? Well duh. That should be obvious shouldn't it?<br /><br />If that's what you mean, then where does this "inclination" (desire, propensity, whatever) come from? It was imputed to all of humanity by god as a result of adam's disobedience. And since none of us can resist sinning due to this inclination to sin, we are all in need of salvation.<br /><br />And so the question remains: why are some saved and others not?<br /><br />By the way, I think you've greatly watered down the christian doctrine of original sin by merely calling it an "inclination". Like I said earlier, Paul asserts in Ephesians that we are all born "dead in our sins". Nevertheless your softening of it doesn't evade the core problem that we are all equally imputed with a sin nature from which we need salvation.<br /><br />"<i>Just so you know I don't believe in hell as a place of eternal concious punishment for humans. Only for Satan and his angels.</i>"<br /><br />Then how do you explain this from the parable of the rich man and Lazarus?:<br /><br />"and in Hades, <b><i>being in torment</i></b>, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for <b><i>I am in anguish in this flame</i></b>."<br /><br />Or this:<br /><br />"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, <b><i>into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels</i></b>. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' And these will go away <b><i>into eternal punishment</i></b>, but the righteous into eternal life."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-17030895498083610262010-07-26T19:24:44.714-04:002010-07-26T19:24:44.714-04:00The OTF does not have any influence at all at any ...The OTF does not have any influence at all at any of christianity's truth claims. It does not demonstrate anything; all the other religions may be false and the OTF can still fail.John Sfiferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00875271904363363020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-38716081628899006252010-07-26T18:40:03.603-04:002010-07-26T18:40:03.603-04:00Lee,
I would say that most of us adults are respo...Lee,<br /><br />I would say that most of us adults are responsible for most of our actions and that God judges us based on that. I think we are born with an inclination to sin but we can resist. The problem is that left to ourselves we don't want to resist and we end up sinning. We are the one's who are responsible when we sin and are held accountable when we do sin. Just so you know I don't believe in hell as a place of eternal concious punishment for humans. Only for Satan and his angels.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-50621402514770295632010-07-26T18:25:55.442-04:002010-07-26T18:25:55.442-04:00Cole, that is a common refrain of calvinists when ...Cole, that is a common refrain of calvinists when trying to justify why god sovereignly chooses to save some and damn the rest.<br />But here's the thing: According to christianity none of us got a choice about being born into sin. The sin of adam and eve was imputed to all of humanity by god, which in and of itself makes no sense to me whatsoever. Surely god is not bound to some principal higher than himself of federal headship that forced him to impute the sin of adam onto the rest of humanity? It doesn't seem right to me, what about you? God could've made it otherwise no?<br />But even granting that we are all supposedly born "dead in our sins" as stated in Ephesians, then all of humanity is equally helpless to do anything about it apart from the regenerating grace of god. That being the case, why wouldn't god save everyone? I struggled with this question (among others) the whole time I was a calvinist, and never found an answer that satisfied my natural sense of decency and fairness. To say that god is merciful to save anyone at all just doesn't cut it, when no one had a choice about being born into sin to begin with.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-32929093435588004192010-07-26T18:12:24.814-04:002010-07-26T18:12:24.814-04:00"If this is so, nothing prevents god from mak..."If this is so, nothing prevents god from making Christianity very, very compelling and making other religions simply seem like rubbish in comparison. Or more so, providing an inner hunger specifically for Christianity rather than an inner hunger for wish fulfillment, eternal protection, assurance of death not really being death, etc. that seems to be equally satisfied by Christianity as any other religion that gets proposed before it."<br /><br />Hendy,<br /><br />I would say God has done this for some people but He doesn't do it for others. Grace, being unmerrited favor, God is never obligated to be merciful to sinners. If He saves some and not others then He does nothing wrong.<br /><br />1 Timothy 2:4 can be interpreted in a number of ways. One of them being that God desires all types of people to be saved regardless of age , race, or nationality. All people simply means all people groups. Not every single individual.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-85311477705597573812010-07-26T17:59:40.921-04:002010-07-26T17:59:40.921-04:00@Cole:
When you say "...the only way around ...@Cole:<br /><br />When you say <i>"...the only way around this for me..."</i>, doesn't it strike you as odd that you have to go "around" anything when it comes to the creator of the universe?<br /><br />Picking and choosing cannot be universal love. 1 Tim 2:4 also disagrees with you.<br /><br />I find it instructive to imagine ways that god could have done things better. I was just thinking about this today and pondered the idea of god leaving behind a mysterious glowing orb of no known material/composition which when anyone truly believed in god and asked to be healed, they would receive healing or perhaps some other non-materialist blessing (surreal peace for the rest of their lives, specific and actual prophetic abilities, etc.).<br /><br />The sign would be so amazingly improved from what we have:<br /><br />- available to all people in every time vs. coming in an obscure place and time only once<br /><br />- repeatable and testable vs. mysterious and non-falsifiable<br /><br />- truly unexplainable vs. being suspiciously in alignment with natural occurrences (like modern "healings" and such)<br /><br />It still requires "true" belief, as only those who do so will be healed so there is no forcing of the will and still room for faith.<br /><br />Anyway, I have no idea why all religions oddly have their hypothesized timeless, spaceless, disembodied mind completely cripple itself and intersect only one such place and time rather than demonstrating something truly timeless, spaceless, and powerful!<br /><br />Even something as simple as instilling a strong impulse or sense that Christianity is the only true religion would be a start. This desire could be <i>at least</i> as strong as my desire to not kill or to avoid eating poop for surely these are signs of "natural law" and are supposedly planted directly by god or via evolution and they are not said to interfere with my free will.<br /><br />If this is so, nothing prevents god from making Christianity very, very compelling and making other religions simply seem like rubbish in comparison. Or more so, providing an inner hunger specifically for Christianity rather than an inner hunger for wish fulfillment, eternal protection, assurance of death not really being death, etc. that seems to be equally satisfied by Christianity as any other religion that gets proposed before it.jwhendyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03615608336736450543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-33765928399867476772010-07-26T17:39:18.950-04:002010-07-26T17:39:18.950-04:00Oops, I missed the last part of my comment.
What&...Oops, I missed the last part of my comment.<br /><br />What's more likely? That someone can actually survive decades without food, or that they are deceiving others?Mastemahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00906236189147171736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-47800723494830655832010-07-26T16:27:31.422-04:002010-07-26T16:27:31.422-04:00Inedia (latin for fasting) and breatharianism are ...Inedia (latin for fasting) and breatharianism are related to people who claim to not need food to survive (the latter also claims that water is not needed).<br /><br />Whenever these claims have been investigated, they have failed. Their practitioners become very adept at sneaking food and water when others aren't looking. Those that don't sneak food tend not to last long, as they die.<br /><br />http://tinyurl.com/o7mh3<br /><br />What's more likely? That someoneMastemahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00906236189147171736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-29328999598065655932010-07-26T14:54:43.874-04:002010-07-26T14:54:43.874-04:00I actually saw the second video in a documentary o...I actually saw the second video in a documentary on Discovery Channel a few years back.<br /><br />No, I'm not talking about people who put on an afore-prepared show or public spectacle [making sure to put a chair in the ground before anyone else get there, etc] -- let alone demand any money or payment for it; I mean people who practiced such things in groups in normal gym-halls or rented rooms or houses, and who saw others there experience them. (Some of them converted later to Orthodoxy, so there would be no point in them saying that they have witnessed such things happening to others in their former religion..)The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-72914461189072682242010-07-26T14:54:06.766-04:002010-07-26T14:54:06.766-04:00This was very good John. This is the very thing th...This was very good John. This is the very thing that bothers me about my faith. I can see that some people are really commited to their religion and they view my religion the same way I view theirs. The only way arround this for me is to say that God's grace is never owed to anybody. He's never obligated to be merciful to anyone. Therefore if He saves some and not others then He does nothing wrong. The fact remains that if Christianity is true then God indeed has a special people that He saves. He doesn't save everyone.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18342042981695750691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-38943898517147434412010-07-26T14:34:44.535-04:002010-07-26T14:34:44.535-04:00@Lee:
Agreed. I am just finishing up Dubay's ...<b>@Lee:</b><br /><br />Agreed. I am just finishing up Dubay's <i>Faith and Certitude</i> which essentially amounts to 250+ pages of saying: "atheism is a choice. Anyone who loves truth will read Jesus' words and immediately know that he could not be an invention and that he is the most compelling man ever to have lived and will want to give their life over to him." Or at least something along those lines. That makes it very difficult for those who look for hard evidence rather than a presuppositional prophecy that only has two outcomes: 1) Jesus is Lord and hurray you acknowledge it... 2) you are stuck in your hard hearted sins, hate truth and god, and just don't want god to be real. <br /><br /><b>@Lvka</b>:<br />- kind of like <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etSivpBHUmE" rel="nofollow">THIS</a> yogi levitating?<br />- or <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2Kz8FzruvQ" rel="nofollow">THESE</a> amazing deeds?<br /><br />I can't find any references to monks not eating much via google. Perhaps you can provide a link of some kind?<br /><br />As I've stated with regard to the Jordan and descent of the holy fire... it would be child's play to establish some criteria to verify these miracles that more might believe. Without such criteria... who can know for sure.<br /><br />Surely it says something that Jesus is never reported to deny anyone the miraculous but goes even further to say, "...but that you will believe more, let it be done" in several instances; however, modern "miracles" only work under the "right" circumstances.<br /><br />It is the mark of a miracle to be open to any inspection and performed under any circumstance (Moses vs. Baal and the drenched pile of wood); to perform something seemingly amazing behind a veil or unexamined? Well that's just magic.jwhendyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03615608336736450543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-63978968772383595232010-07-26T13:17:20.914-04:002010-07-26T13:17:20.914-04:00"We should apply to ourselves the standards w..."We should apply to ourselves the standards we apply to others"Abukristhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12372219771385753842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-71868858818194626562010-07-26T12:15:39.248-04:002010-07-26T12:15:39.248-04:00they know that they cannot objectively justify the...<i>they know that they cannot objectively justify their own faith.</i><br /><br />Well... if they can't, then please let me have the pleasure: Yogis can and have actually levitated, and some Buddhists are known to have gone for entire decades without any material food whatsoever. (How's this for starters?) -- Do you also want me to tell you the story of the Buddhist monk whom the Communists have thrown to starved dogs, and the beasts wouldn't touch him?The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-2484369007442350432010-07-26T11:50:31.018-04:002010-07-26T11:50:31.018-04:00In light of the old saw about "not able to be...In light of the old saw about "not able to be reasoned OUT of faith because they were never reasoned INTO it in the first place", I think it's reasonable to point out that the vast majority of the people in the videos have NEVER "...evaluated their own religious faith objectively and fairly."<br /><br />These people are swept along by the tides of their respective geographically determined cultures, parentage, upbringing and level of exposure to the things they now believe on "faith", and have a huge likelihood of having never thought about why they believe let alone QUESTIONED their beliefs.<br /><br />You've set yourself a noble and ambitious goal, John, but like the missionaries who ended up in the community cookpot, I don't think the vast majority of the "natives" will tolerate challenges to their faith.<br /><br />But that doesn't mean you should stop, either.GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-76432305486395385272010-07-26T11:32:24.715-04:002010-07-26T11:32:24.715-04:00Sorry, this should read: "the arrogant assump...Sorry, this should read: "the arrogant assumption that billions of people would choose hell <i>over</i> heaven..."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-78514781139334835262010-07-26T10:57:16.608-04:002010-07-26T10:57:16.608-04:00Hendy: exactly. It all comes back down to explain...Hendy: exactly. It all comes back down to explaining why anyone will be in hell.<br /><br />Christians typically fall into 2 camps: One camp asserts that god <i>has</i> made it abundantly clear to everyone that has ever lived that jesus christ is the only way to heaven, and so assume that everyone who goes to hell willingly chose to reject jesus in spite of being convinced of it. In other words they willingly chose hell over heaven. This view is generally referred to as arminianism.<br /><br />The other camp asserts that only those whose eyes have been opened by god's spirit are able to choose christ and go to heaven. These are the chosen. The rest are doomed to hell with no hope. These are the reprobate. That is, god sovereignly chose whom he would save and whom he would not. This is known as calvinism or reformed theology.<br /><br />When I was a christian i started out with the former view, until I could no longer live with it, which was my 1st major crises of faith. It was then that i "discovered" and embraced calvinism. But in the end I couldn't live with it either. Both notions are repugnant to me know. Both the arrogant assumption that billions of people would choose hell or heaven, and the deplorable idea that a loving god would not choose to save the entire helpless human race.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-84120001643481500672010-07-26T10:26:36.834-04:002010-07-26T10:26:36.834-04:00Great idea for a post, John. In watching these it ...Great idea for a post, John. In watching these it seems far easier to perceive religious experiences as near universal human trait rather than something monopolized by those who happen to follow the "right god." Even this is skewed however, as followers of religion x will say that those of y, and z are "closer to truth" than the atheist as they are <i>really</i> experiencing "The One" even though they think it is god y or z...<br /><br />Occam's razor would seem to suggest that we're dealing with a psychological phenomenon rather than an ad hoc interpretation of "god x in disguise"... especially when god x could have made it abundantly clear that only he/she was the true god.<br /><br />I think even if I were a believer right now I would almost be angry at god nonetheless -- to believe in x (say Christianity) should make one furious that others believe in utter sh*t so easily and have no regard whatsoever for the evidence one supposes supports Christianity. Shouldn't that make believers fume? It upsets me as someone trying to seek truth -- if god is god, why make his true form so easily discarded in favor of some radically opposed, mutually exclusive, piece of crap image of god?jwhendyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03615608336736450543noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-16453708388735917522010-07-26T09:51:47.871-04:002010-07-26T09:51:47.871-04:00So who's right? MMM or Breckmin? Does he &qu...So who's right? MMM or Breckmin? Does he "manifest his 'love'" to all people, the implication being that all people should be able to recognize and thus accept it, and so those that do not accept it are simply choosing to reject that "love" which they apparently see in order to indulge their "sin" or whatever. Or is it that people only see the "logic" of christianity and thus see god's "love" once god opens their eyes to it? This of course, begs the question: why doesn't he just open everyone's eyes? Or are you saying Breckmin, that he does open everyone's eyes? If so, then you must assume as MMM seems to that those who reject christianity do so in spite of really, deep down, believing it to be true. Is that the case? Do you really believe that everyone that has ever lived has seen and understood your god's love and understood their need for salvation through christ alone, and that the billions that have never accepted christ did so in spite of that understanding and so rightfully deserve to be in hell forever? Is there any room at all for you to believe that many have lived and died w/o ever being aware of the claims of christianity, and that many, like myself, and have left their christian faith simply because it just doesn't make sense, because we got tired of living with so much cognitive dissonance. And likewise that many have never accepted it for the same reason: that it just doesn't make sense to them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com