tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post7966714780379359261..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: Christian Can You Really Worship a God Who Will Send Your Family and Friends to Hell?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger141125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-39928252384148108762010-01-04T19:18:36.496-05:002010-01-04T19:18:36.496-05:00Hi Steve - thanks for the convo here - for the rec...Hi Steve - thanks for the convo here - for the record, I do think torture is horrifyingly horrible but there is a couple places in scripture whereby Jesus intimated that He is not familiar with minions that perpetuate suffering upon humanity and He also said that there is no relationship between light and dark (although He was willing to encounter and confront it).<br /><br />I know there are ppl that complain, well why did He create humanity or there shouldn't be a place provided for destruction to play itsself out -- But I have come to love His creative expression and don't believe it should be aborted -- Godly love far outweighs the risks and hazards of condemnation and hell especially once you realize how generous God is in allowing ppl to become a part of the heavenly landscape (both on earth and in the eternal). so, on that note, (I know I keep saying I'm retiring from writing) I will remind you not to worry about hell and condemnation - rather, be concerned about who you meet in the here and now that you will encounter in eternal heavenly dwellings. And remember, Jesus assigned the label of 'nonbeliever' to some of the Christians you're trying to help out of idolotry so good job - keep up the good work!<br /><br />ttyl,<br />3MManifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-17944915528953987192010-01-04T16:32:51.549-05:002010-01-04T16:32:51.549-05:00Hello MMM,
First off I apologise for any condesce...Hello MMM,<br /><br />First off I apologise for any condescension. It is not my aim to be so and I do consciously attempt to be pleasant, but have obviously failed in this one. I have had many pleasant conversations with Christians in the past, so I know it can be done. Personally I always read your emails imagining a friendly voice so I don’t too easily fall back on my prejudices!<br /><br />Anyway, I think we have actually improved a little in the way we’ve talked to each other over these posts although I suspect we are both a little frustrated.<br /><br />To some extent complex conversations have a logic and impetus of their own and sometimes we are taken off where we might not have intended initially. You asked why I’ve wanted to know about your beliefs. Actually I have discussed Christians in general, the bible and your beliefs. Christians have a wide variety of beliefs so I have to be able to pin down what particular Christians think if I want to discuss Christianity with them. I’ll admit this has been difficult to do with you, but I don’t have to anyway, as I did say a while back – I am content to discuss Christianity in wider contexts but there too you refused to comment or be drawn on what other Christians believe now or in the past. So the only thing left to comment on is what’s in the bible.<br /><br />My basic thesis for why Christians can accept hell (those Christians who believe it to be torture) is that it is only possible if they have a maladjusted relationship with their deity and this is commonly seen in other relationships of unequal power balance, particularly where there are cruel actions mixed with kindness. I have found it frustrating all along that you have not been able to straight forwardly acknowledge that torture is cruel so we can examine this problem. My basic thesis from the bible (and note this is not just the OT – the NT is worse) being immoral is that it contains clear instances of immorality, such as Jesus’ descriptions of hell as physical torture and Jesus’ belief in the flood being a real event. Hence Jesus believes that global genocide is justice, therefore he cannot be divine (let alone the clanger that he actually believed such a fairy-story!)<br /><br />From my perspective I think my basic problem with our conversation is that I have had trouble getting you to look at this and I think you are making it more complex than it needs be. Likewise I feel you think I have not understood your main thesis. Nevertheless I have found our conversation stimulating. If you want to continue that is okay, but I think I probably have said as much as I have to offer, although I could rephrase or give more examples or expand. <br /><br />I don’t know if anyone else is still signed up to this thread but if so it is interesting that nobody else has chipped in since we started back and forth in earnest – maybe they are either interested in the interaction or (I fear) exasperated! Anyway I’ve found it interesting.<br /><br />If you do want a rest, then you know where to find me if you want to pick up later - <a href="http://sites.google.com/site/leavingxtianity/home" rel="nofollow"> http://sites.google.com/site/leavingxtianity</a><br /><br />Best wishes<br /><br />SteveSteve Lockshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08153017570263816987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-10403507190113965672010-01-04T13:53:05.880-05:002010-01-04T13:53:05.880-05:00Hi Steve, I am always looking to improve my writin...Hi Steve, I am always looking to improve my writing skills as you have suggested the need, so here are some edits to items I previously wrote. For instance, this one should have read (corrections in caps), <br /><br />"As we see later on, even those infected with religious hypocrisy are forgiven so the schism between heaven and hell has been BRIDGED by the grace of God through Jesus."<br /><br />Okay, then another point I wanted to clarify has to do with your trained perspective of scripture. Here is the correction (again, the corrections are in caps): <br /><br />"I'll get back to you about your interpretation on another scripture you referenced, but I SUSPECT that your SCRIPTURAL TRAINING ALLOWED YOU to view the character IN THE PARABLE of the lame man by the healing pool as being 'lazy' and 'making excuses'. If I'm wrong, I am open to being corrected.<br /><br />Okay,<br />hope this is more readable,<br />3MManifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-29183275660492297662010-01-04T11:14:12.745-05:002010-01-04T11:14:12.745-05:00I'll get back to you about your interpretation...I'll get back to you about your interpretation on another scripture you referenced, but I have a feeling that you were taught to view the character of the lame man by the wayside to the healing pool as being 'lazy' and 'making excuses'. If I'm wrong, I am open to being corrected.<br /><br />Just a couple notes of summary here for this conversation before I move on(and this does relate to how I feel about hell and God's salvation for it):<br /><br />At the time I became an atheist, I did not have these words and insight to convey what I am about to write. By faith, I can now tell you that it was much easier for me to "erase" God than to confront and allow Him to abate the toxic and hardened feelings I had become indoctrinated by within my familial relationships. I had been trained to accept some pretty inhumane terms of what it means to 'love'. At the time, I thought they were normal and from what I know, they are not all that uncommon. I was taught to be loyal to familial dysfunction and it was very scary to detach from old ways to embrace freedom. It's the same thing that Jesus did when He confronted the religious elite of His day. The need to intervene still continues to this day.<br /><br />At any rate, Steve, I may retire on conversing about hell for now - I encourage you to continue to run your course and discover what is compelling you to do so. How we respond towards those who are in opposition to us reveals what is harbored on a subliminal basis. That is why Jesus advocated 'going deep' to explore and bring to light the subliminal drives that compel people. While that is also advocated by psychology, psychologists do not necessarily address spirituality or identify God as the culminating source of freedom to connect to.<br /><br />Okay, take care,<br />3MManifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-38126912623410767722010-01-04T09:53:41.148-05:002010-01-04T09:53:41.148-05:00continued, part 2....
Then this: "Isn't ...continued, part 2....<br /><br />Then this: "Isn't it that you don't want to see what is in the bible as cruel;" I wish cruelty were only confined to literary works, don't you? But, I think your point is that you are trying to show me that God is cruel based on your biblical training - I believe you think I am defending and justifying scriptures that portray God as cruel. I follow Jesus - He didn't defend OT scripture, He confronted it -But He offers salvation - He invites the OT ppl (that brought the NT to being) to progress forward in grace. (He also intimates that OT villains are loved by God).<br /><br />I have to agree (and Jesus addressed this as well) that if the divine were solely a religious icon or literary creature, one can and does corrupt and project cruelty upon the nature of God and Jesus - it's true - it happens throughout the history of mankind and currently! We project our own perspective upon the nature of the divine. I see that you do understand this much because you wrote about it on your blog. But, (and this is good news) Jesus reveals and offers a spiritual connection to a loving God who defies our corrupt projections and misconceptions.<br /><br />to be continued....Manifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-69456385401604386182010-01-04T09:49:56.306-05:002010-01-04T09:49:56.306-05:00Hi again Steve!
I am curious to know why on earth...Hi again Steve!<br /><br />I am curious to know why on earth my opinion of what other Christians believe and my take on hell is so important - just a friendly awareness alert here, but your approach comes off as condescending, so why seek the opinion of someone you would need to lower yourself to???? Just wondering....<br /><br />At any rate, I'd hate for you to miss out on something good, so I just want to re-iterate a few points (I need a little practice with honing the virtue of patience anyway so here goes.... )<br /><br />Again, I do not recall (if I have, I do want to correct this!) having used the term, "choice" or "justice" in regards to those who gravitate towards perpetuating 'hell on earth'. God is about faithful salvation and setting us free - ppl demand justice rather than faith and personally, I didn't have free choice until I was saved by connecting to a free spirit. Instead, I feel the term, 'preference' is a more accurate description from scripture that applies in real life. I do believe reality confirms that ppl can and do cultivate a preference and love for lying (hypocrisy, conceit), mercenary pursuits and other 'bloodthirsty' endeavors.<br /><br /> Jesus described God as a caring judge who appropriates in accordance with one's heartfelt nature so while I no longer desire to be coopted by fear or terror, there are those who are very successful and empowered by promoting those confines. <br /><br />You mentioned Luke 16:20-31 - I feel your interpretation is limited to one parable without the advantage of looking at the bigger picture. Jesus is confronting religious pursuits for the purpose of self promotion - He is attempting to intervene on a corrupt vision of an elitist,hypocritical, castigating God. As we see later on, even those infected with religious hypocrisy are forgiven so the schism between heaven and hell has been opened by the grace of God through Jesus. <br /><br />to be continued......Manifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-75956398746221720542010-01-03T16:24:15.885-05:002010-01-03T16:24:15.885-05:00Part 2 of 2
MMM, you wrote before that you are:
f...Part 2 of 2<br /><br />MMM, you wrote before that you are:<br /><i>free from projecting a cruel personification upon the divine</i><br /><br />I don't understand how everlasting physical torment cannot be cruel (if you actually believe in it, but others do anyway and Jesus is portrayed as believing hell contains physical torment). That I think was John Loftus's original point in this thread. You said before of hell:<br /><i>Since I cannot find anywhere where it does say ppl despise being there, what's your point?</i><br /><br />My point is that Christians often excuse anything if they believe it is in the bible. So it is revealing to clarify first what you absolutely would not excuse then see if it is in the bible rather than visa versa. <br /><br />Luke 16:20-31 gives an example of someone in hell (actually burning in flames!) who does not want to be there. Those watching the torments from heaven state as the main reason they cannot relieve the torments as not that those in hell want to be in everlasting torment, but that a physical barrier is in the way. They seem more compassionate than God as they mention those who would help if only they could cross over the impassable barrier. Maybe Jesus (or whoever wrote the story) also had an uneasy subconscious inkling that torment in hell is cruel.<br /><br />So, according to Luke 16:20-31, not only do people not want to go to hell but they do wish to be in heaven, as you can see - because although it is too late for the rich man personally to escape (there is a physical barrier in the way that some would cross - both ways - if they could) he also wants his loved ones to go to heaven and pleads for help in this. This is far from your view that he chose hell. So even from the bible you are wrong about choosing hell, let alone everything else I've already said about hell not being a choice. <br /><br />Okay, maybe you have met some very destructive people, after all some people really are mad and some have a range of mental health problems that may make it look like they would choose to be harmed. You mentioned you yourself were once unable to form intimate relationships .Apparently research even shows that 1% of people are psychopaths. But banishing people to everlasting torment for such problems is not appropriate. Correct medical care and psychological counselling would have been more worthy of a benevolent being! <br /><br />Anyway, the mad aside, do you believe people choose hell because it really makes sense for them to choose it or because they theoretically must choose hell to tie in with the idea that tormenting people for ever is just? Isn't it that you don't want to see what is in the bible as cruel; therefore the only option is that you have to believe people choose to go to hell?Steve Lockshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08153017570263816987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-37667971848734835842010-01-03T16:23:43.990-05:002010-01-03T16:23:43.990-05:00Part 1 of 2
MMM, thanks and I appreciate your lat...Part 1 of 2<br /><br />MMM, thanks and I appreciate your latest posts and some clarification you gave. However, as I said before, most of what is in your posts is not written in a clear way, so you might want to work on that in order to communicate your thoughts better. Have a look at <br /><a href="http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/" rel="nofollow">http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/</a>. Clarity of communication is also an aid to clarity of thought. If you have something important to say then it should be said clearly otherwise it just looks like you are struggling to promote something that doesn’t make sense which fits right in line with my prejudices!<br /><br />I can understand your feelings of your passage through non-belief as a sort of refining fire leading you to a better understanding of God. Indeed this is not unknown in Christian tradition itself where seriously confronting hard questions, even to the extent of loss of belief, has been seen as extremely important spiritual growth. All the way from St. John of the Cross and his "Dark Night of the Soul" to the writings of Dietrich Bonhoeffer and eventually Don Cupitt et al. St. Therese of Lisieux basically lost her belief in God during her last 18 months. She came to "eat at the table of unbelievers" as she put it. She also described how much purer her feeling of love was when unsupported by the promise of future joy and glory. Eckhart famously wrote: "Man's last and highest parting occurs when, for God's sake, he takes leave of God." A few years ago I had some long conversations with a couple of ex-atheists <a href="http://sites.google.com/site/leavingxtianity/feedback/dr-anthony-garrett" rel="nofollow"> here</a> and <a href="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/asym/jordan.html" rel="nofollow"> here</a>. Even more interesting was the very cordial conversation I had with Prof. Tim Larson on his interesting book I enjoyed on high ranking Victorian members of secular/freethought societies and notable critics of Christianity who nevertheless subsequently became Christians. Our discussion on that is <a href="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/asym/larsen.html" rel="nofollow"> here</a>. I am in danger of digressing but it may be of interest to you as a side issue.<br /><br />Anyway back to how can people think hell is just. As you know, many Christians (but not atheists and agnostics) do indeed say that God committed genocide (the flood), killed a baby to punish its father and sends people to everlasting torment etc. I am sure they see these things (and themselves) not as cruel but as justified. I am sure of this because I’ve read many examples of such justifications and they always say so when I’ve asked individual Christians. Many have also directly written to me going to great lengths to justify these supposed actions of God. That after all is the whole branch of apologetics called "theodicy". Milton starts <i>Paradise Lost</i> with the words that the purpose of his epic poem is to "justify the ways of God to men." Indeed the main problem for Christianity is that Jesus himself is described as thinking such things are just. Jesus believed God sent the flood (Matt: 24:38), so Jesus believed global genocide by God was just! So we can forget what "false Christians" believe about God being cruel if we want as even Jesus believed this cruel stuff was just, unless we are to believe black is white and global genocide is justice! So Christianity is totally sunk! Nobody can morally stoop to worship.<br /><br />You’ve clearly stated this time that you do believe hell is a destination after death. I should have included for clarification though, the crucial question as to whether you think those in hell are subject to physical torment. Could you just answer yes or no to that one too? <br /><br />Continued below…Steve Lockshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08153017570263816987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-11619188068323608482010-01-02T15:55:26.158-05:002010-01-02T15:55:26.158-05:00Okay, I am negligent here --- I wanted to respond ...Okay, I am negligent here --- I wanted to respond to this and these issues represent common understandings of the divine:<br /><br />""How much more love does one have to demonstrate by allowing you and me to have free will to decide these things? "<br />exactly contrary to an assertion I had in an email from another Christian that day:<br />"You do not choose what you believe and what you do not. God has chosen that long before the ages ever began. You are destined to live the life God has set out for you and somehow, it brings Him glory. Even if you wanted to believe, you could not until God chose for you to. "<br /><br /><br />These stances represent the notions of complete, free autonomous human will and predestination - polar opposites as you have correctly identified.<br /><br />But, Jesus offered this - He said we are blind and deaf (from my own experience I had the liberty to make decisions but was blind and deaf to the subliminal driving/compelling messages that shaped those decisions) -But He comes to set the captives free! He sees us with compassion and salvation, because we do promote enmity between one another. <br /><br /> I really was not 'free' until I became aware or was enlightened of spiritual freedom and started bonding to God's free (but loving) spirit. God has the insight to recognize the pattern of condemnation (both the subtle and more sensational versions of that) but He is also relational in allowing us to develope a preference.<br /><br />While He can recognize the patterns of destruction, He Himself does not become subjugated or corrupted by condemnation. He doesn't subjugate or dominate or oppress or abuse as human authority can do. <br /><br />This is really lengthy now, but I like reading what you have to say, it just takes me awhile to get through it all thoughtfully. <br /><br />Thx, <br />3MManifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-85029429460904129632010-01-02T13:57:04.939-05:002010-01-02T13:57:04.939-05:00Steve, I wanted to respond to what you wrote here,...Steve, I wanted to respond to what you wrote here, <br /><br />"Finally MMM, you keep asking me (in the form of "when did you stop beating your wife") why I "want" to condemn as if I've got some defect, for which Christianity is presumably the cure."<br /><br />From my own personal perspective, I do not stigmatize the process of illness and the need for seeking relief. Where did you get the impetus for the interpretation of my stance? I myself, do not scorn or otherwise hold in contempt those who need tender loving care.Manifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-76824785495956476862010-01-02T12:04:51.340-05:002010-01-02T12:04:51.340-05:00Steve, I visited your site and it occurred to me t...Steve, I visited your site and it occurred to me that the means of seeking God that you speak of seems to equate to biblical indoctrination. <br /><br />When Jesus spoke about ppl needing to hate their parents, sons, daughters, etc, (eg, familial indoctrination and cooperation with abusive empowerment), who do you think He was talking to? To me He was speaking not only to the Israelites, but to all humanity. <br /><br />I am not anti-semite and Jesus Himself is Jewish, but He demonstrated and progressed away from the OT as being an accurate depiction of God. He challenged religious dogma within His own community and it is somewhat scary, but it is Jesus who set the example for challenging the OT characterization of God, not me.<br /><br />We do not have to be subjugated by cruelty as those who suffer from Stockholm syndrome, but can be saved and lead others out as well. Afterall, we would remain as victims if we did not invite the victimizers out of their victimhood.<br /><br />ttyl,<br />3M<br /><br />Thx!<br />3MManifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-28112662823204441572010-01-02T11:48:29.280-05:002010-01-02T11:48:29.280-05:00Continued...
Steve, in summary, I answered your q...Continued...<br /><br />Steve, in summary, I answered your questions honestly and authentically. Initially, I didn't understand all that Jesus was addressing and saying, but there is a spiritual invitation to become enlightened - Jesus spoke of the seed for that venture as becoming thirsty and hungry and seeking. I've seen Christians stigmatize those ventures, but they are very valuable and worthwhile pursuits. There are spiritual truths that do not conform to the projections of human nature. Divine nature is that way - different than territorial human nature but with Christ, it is accessible and an invitation to share in His approach of lovingkindness and compassionate intervention. <br /><br />I do believe hell can be a present preoccupation (as evidenced in reality and recognized by those who can accurately identify reality - evil is not a myth or a part of religious scripture) and I also believe hell can be a potential after-death destination that ppl have developed a preference for. I mean that whole heartedly about the preference part because I've experienced that. For some, heaven is like hell because they have such contempt for tender intimacy - that was me. I don't care how ppl react to that, but check your own heart before judging - would you really want to spend eternity with unrepentent hypocrites or those who prefer to abuse their power? Who on this Earth would keep you out of heaven if you saw them there in their repented state? Would you be able to recognize that they were free of contempt and hypocrisy?<br /> <br />I do believe hell exists because humanity continues to cooperate with the deceptions that construct it- because we allow fear and offense to keep us perpetuating enmity amongst one another. Condemnation isn't part of God's plan - it doesn't fit into heavenly quarters. But,God confronts and invites those who are empowered by cruelty and unkindness to practice a different way. Some ppl are coopted into using unloving methods as a means of self preservation and refuse to give them up. That is confirmed by reality. <br /><br />But the good news is is that there is also divine intervention in softening hearts to care wholeheartedly and authentically about one another. So I invite you to consider this - instead of worrying about who will be in hell, consider who you will meet in heaven.<br /><br />Take care, Steve,<br />3MManifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-4348491353994282682010-01-02T11:44:33.391-05:002010-01-02T11:44:33.391-05:00Hi Steve! That was a really l-e-n-g-t-h-y respons...Hi Steve! That was a really l-e-n-g-t-h-y response, and I have one as well.<br /><br />I like this:<br /><br />"I think most Christians are the victims of Christianity and need help steering out of their confusion and onwards to a mature understanding of reality. Those who deconvert are very grateful for this and often write to me to thank me for the resources I give and describe how they find a much better mental life is available after deconversion, even if the crisis prior to deconversion is a time of anxiety."<br /><br />Yes, I agree!!I was a deconverted person at one time and travelled through agnosticism and atheism. But I am grateful for those times of clearcut nonbelief, because I needed to realize that my former "belief" was truly idolotry. I needed to confront and get rid of some human inspired toxins in my perspective of familial authority -- Jesus spoke of this process - it sounds pretty intimidating, but once actualized, set me free from being subjugated by cruelty and from projecting a cruel personification upon the divine.<br /><br />From what I am reading and understanding, it seems you have come to terms with the truth that a lot of religion (including some who practice Christianity) uses the image of the divine as a means for self righteous and abusive empowerment.<br /><br />But, if one truly had followed Jesus and actually believed Jesus, then why are they surprised by this??? No one who believes what Jesus said need be subjugated by human cruelty. He already advised and warned about abusive religious authority in Christianity and other fields of humanity. He wrote about it in several places. As a matter of fact, one of my favorite scriptures is about the religious elite who are sitting in the marketplace (making ppl believe they must earn approval of empowered authority when it has already been freely expressed and given in the creation of their own lives), like children, complaining about their followers because the followers can't conform to their narrow minded and cruel expectations/standards of acceptance.<br /><br />I have witnessed Christians (and been condescending myself) behaving with this type of moral conceit - I feel sorry for them - it is a hellhole! And Jesus said it was a symptom of atheism, not belief, to espouse this attitude and condescending behavior. A lot of Christians are obviously hypocritical in proclaiming a Savior God while scorning sinners!!! At least you have come to this junction in becoming consistent with the truth.<br /><br />stay tuned - tbc......Manifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-21943299028570035552010-01-01T16:29:34.219-05:002010-01-01T16:29:34.219-05:00Part 3 of 3
The simple fact is that it is Christi...Part 3 of 3<br /><br />The simple fact is that it is Christians – not atheists and agnostics – who believe in everlasting torture and plenty of other atrocities aside. This is not good. It is no use saying that other Christians interpret the bible wrongly as you did with David Pawson, as there is no consensus on what the correct interpretation is. Let alone 2 Peter 1:20 "<i>no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.</i>" If I accepted yours I would be rejecting many others and visa versa. There are so many different views of central doctrines amongst Christians that there would always be more Christians accusing me of being a false Christian than true if I accepted any particular views of the many discrepant ones I get from all the "true Christians" who write to me.<br />For instance on the same day I had two Christians write to me with two exactly opposite earnest assertions that they wanted me to believe. i.e. Christian 1 wrote:<br />"<i>How much more love does one have to demonstrate by allowing you and me to have free will to decide these things? </i>"<br />exactly contrary to an assertion I had in an email from another Christian that day:<br />"<i>You do not choose what you believe and what you do not. God has chosen that long before the ages ever began. You are destined to live the life God has set out for you and somehow, it brings Him glory. Even if you wanted to believe, you could not until God chose for you to. </i>"<br />So, plenty of Christians believe in a physical hell. Jesus also described it as such, with actual physical torment after death which the dead in hell wish release from and do not wish upon others. (e.g. Luke 16:20-31). How can anyone believe hell is just? It all looks like primitive people’s beliefs that modern people should be beyond now, as many of us are.Steve Lockshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08153017570263816987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-23806169247915356512010-01-01T16:29:02.593-05:002010-01-01T16:29:02.593-05:00Part 2 of 3
I've spoken to many Christians w...Part 2 of 3<br /><br /><br />I've spoken to many Christians who do not see the special pleading in that Christians are not wilfully rejecting Allah, Krishna and Zoroaster or choosing their hells. I am not wilfully rejecting any of these deities or the Christian god, or choosing their hells - as if I don't agree with Zoroastrianism and therefore want to go to the Zoroastrian hell. Rather I do not think these deities are even there to reject or their hells there to choose. I am not in rebellion against Thor, rather I honestly think thunder and lightening are caused by natural electrical discharges, there is no Norse god that needs rejecting. It is not pride or cruelty or an attitude of condemnation that makes me disbelieve in Thor or his punishments.<br /><br /><br />MMM, I still do not know for sure if you think hell is an actual afterlife location. Previously you seemed to believe in actual demons, but maybe you were being figurative? Of course plenty of Christians do believe in literal demons. A Christian at work, who overheard me talking about how at a local church they preach hellfire, started literally shaking, went red in the face and thundered at me that he knows demons are real because he has seen them! One can only imagine the nightmares his children must have suffered. Actually we don't have to imagine - I have collected such child abuse horror stories and I'll post them later.<br /><br />Finally MMM, you keep asking me (in the form of "when did you stop beating your wife") why I "want" to condemn as if I've got some defect, for which Christianity is presumably the cure. Let me spell it out. I think most Christians are the <i>victims</i> of Christianity and need help steering out of their confusion and onwards to a mature understanding of reality. Those who deconvert are very grateful for this and often write to me to thank me for the resources I give and describe how they find a much better mental life is available after deconversion, even if the crisis prior to deconversion is a time of anxiety. See <a href="http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/quotes.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> for some quotes and <br /><a href="http://www.eclipse.co.uk/thoughts/slocks.htm" rel="nofollow"> here</a> for a summary. You may be interested in <a href="http://www.newrational.com/joy/" rel="nofollow"> the joy of disillusionment </a>. However those Christians who perpetrate cruel beliefs onto the innocent and gullible - particularly children and the poorly educated - are perpetrators, all be it often unwittingly, of cruelty. I have received enough stories of the mental anguish some Christian beliefs cause people - in particular hell - to see that these beliefs are cruel and a cause of unnecessary suffering. As I read these stories I thought if only Christians would read these and come to realise what they are doing then they would weep in shame. Unfortunately I was naive to think so as I subsequently discovered that what really happens is that Christians attempt to rationalise the cruel things Christianity makes them do and even see their behaviours as appropriate and just. Christians are quick to say they are sinners and to admit to their sins, but those sins they never confess to are the ones being a Christian may cause them to commit. So I "condemn" all the unnecessary suffering perpetrated because of religion and I am also concerned by the misdirection and extremely confused and complex messy misunderstanding of the world religion causes that makes it so difficult for people to unravel their indoctrination. So yes, I do "want" to make the world a better place and reduce the suffering and misdirection religion causes. If this doesn’t satisfy you then you will have to define exactly what you mean by "condemn" as I don't understand how it can be wrong to condemn cruelty and unnecessary suffering.<br /><br />Continued below…Steve Lockshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08153017570263816987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-26010225701888297652010-01-01T16:26:35.739-05:002010-01-01T16:26:35.739-05:00Part 1 of 3
MMM, it is not cruel to ask Christian...Part 1 of 3<br /><br />MMM, it is not cruel to ask Christians who choose to be on the debunking Christianity blog to be explicit when telling us what they believe. Remember you are here out of choice and it was you who initiated conversation with me and I only keep asking you the same question because you give no clear answer. I noticed on some of the other threads people complained you were completely opaque. Contrast the “cruelty” you feel with children whose parents and pastors tell them that they, their friends and relatives etc. will go to hell unless they accept their parents' or pastor's beliefs. Even without Christians telling vulnerable people about the dangers if hell, the bible itself contains plenty of cruelty and difficult passages both in the OT and NT such that they cause much private mental anguish amongst sensitive Christians, as many ex-Christians have described. It is such as these who suffer cruelty, not Christians who willingly converse on a blog set up to criticise Christianity! As for how you feel about our discussion, you don't have to be here if you feel my questions are "cruel" or the pressure to explicitly state your beliefs is somehow too much (I have no idea how it can be "cruel" to ask for a simple yes or no answer to a straight forward question). As for your complaint of repeated questioning, if you could give me a straight yes or no answer rather than ambiguous responses then I would know what you are talking about and would not keep asking. We could then move on to more interesting points.<br /><br />For example, I thought in your last post that you had at last clearly told me you do not think hell is a place people can go to when they die. You wrote:<br />"<i>No, I do not</i>"<br />That seemed clear enough and I was about to write, "good for you" as I did with Houx and then move on to more interesting discussion, but then reading on I saw you wrote:<br /><br />"<i>I believe it is a very real and present (but potentially eternal) preoccupation.</i>"<br /><br />I thought initially when I started your latest post that you meant hell is a state of mind or spiritual state on Earth. That was pretty much what I thought when I was a Christian (and that non-Christians didn’t have the finer spiritual feelings Christians did), although it troubled me as a Christian that if hell is just an Earthly state of mind then why do so many Christians believe it is an actual afterlife location and why isn't the bible crystal clear about something so important and damaging to believe as a literal hell afterlife with physical torment when it's not? Why did Jesus describe hell as actual physical torment after death which the dead in hell wish release from and do not wish upon others? (e.g. Luke 16:20-31). These are the sort of troubling questions that often crop up in deconversion stories and prevent people from seeing Jesus as humane. So it is a shame if Christianity were true that your answers are so unclear and that you spend your time judging my character rather than answering my direct questions with direct yes or no and intelligible answers.<br /><br />If your writing of "no I do not" literally means you do not think hell is a place people can go to when they die then what does "present (but potentially eternal)" mean? By "eternal" do you mean an afterlife in hell after all? Maybe you mean that there is a hell afterlife but it is a state of eternal confusion, not physical torment?<br /><br />Do you mean some people are currently in Christian (but not in Muslim) hell and will continue to be so after death? Or do you not believe in any afterlife? Or are you a Universalist?<br /><br />Continued below...Steve Lockshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08153017570263816987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-77581226106459840642009-12-29T20:20:49.291-05:002009-12-29T20:20:49.291-05:00Steve wrote, "So please stop denigrating me f...Steve wrote, "So please stop denigrating me for not liking cruelty" Steve, what do you think God's standard for cruelty is? Do you think He discredits ppls' attempts to respond graciously and then interrogates them relentlessly? No, He does not. Do you know why? Because it is......cruel.<br /><br />I certainly hope whomever demonstrated that or infected you with this behavior has confessed their hypocrisy and has repented by now.<br /><br />As for me, I love to converse here and I have written about hell and also about having been a former atheist. I am neither threatened nor impressed by the arguments posed here - I'm never going back to atheism. But I am grateful for my former disbelief - I can recognize the roots of evil and hell and I agree with God, that it originates from the depths of empowered hypocrites. Not a very pleasant lifestyle - So do I believe hell is an eternal destination? No, I do not - I believe it is a very real and present (but potentially eternal) preoccupation - one in which we can be saved and delivered from if we thirst and hunger for a different way. No one likes suffering,but everyone has a different standard for what suffering is and ppl cooperate with perpetuating hell everyday as empowered hypocrites, (otherwise why would people complain about POE???). <br /><br />So, Take care, Steve!Manifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-8081455762156987562009-12-29T19:54:04.686-05:002009-12-29T19:54:04.686-05:00MMM,
You're quite wrong in your assessment of...MMM,<br /><br />You're quite wrong in your assessment of why I'm asking questions. All along I've tried to answer yours but I am afraid it is very unclear as to what your questions actually are! You are not a clear writer I'm afraid.<br /><br />I think Christianity is a mistaken view of the world and so I am critiquing it. However if I am wrong then I would like to know but you are not helping by avoiding efforts to clarify.<br /><br />I have only ever critiqued cruelty and yes I do understand why people might be cruel and I too hold lower standards for the ignorant than I do for the informed. I also forgive and understand as much as possible, but as long as we have functioning frontal lobes then we are able to have some responsibility for our actions.<br /><br />Right, now if you answer "yes" to my question "do you believe hell is an actual place people can go to when they die" then I will say thank you and move on to the next item. If you say no then I apologise but you really have been very unclear if you don't think it is.<br /><br />So please stop denigrating me for not liking cruelty and just answer yes or no - is hell a place where you think people can go when they die? Surely people are allowed to ask Christians questions on the debunking Christianity blog!<br /><br />Or do you mean by "no clear yes or no" that you are undecided if hell is a place people can go to when they die?Steve Lockshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08153017570263816987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-29632037700884392062009-12-29T19:28:57.722-05:002009-12-29T19:28:57.722-05:00Howdy Steve,
The old double standard raises its ...Howdy Steve, <br /><br />The old double standard raises its head once again - you want to demand answers but aren't answering my questions. So I'll just use your words to rebut "Again no clear yes or no"<br /><br />Look, let's face it - you're trying to indict someone - But in God's eyes, we're all guilty of something but instead of punishing or condemning us, He offers salvation and mercy. What do you have to offer someone who is guilty with your double standards? Self righteousness is not a very good way to protect humanity.<br /><br />bye!Manifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-87555800983992610012009-12-29T19:04:54.483-05:002009-12-29T19:04:54.483-05:00MMM,
Again no clear yes or no, but it does look l...MMM,<br /><br />Again no clear yes or no, but it does look like you do think hell is an actual place people can go to when they die. Do you?Steve Lockshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08153017570263816987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-12296960758797375862009-12-29T19:02:20.451-05:002009-12-29T19:02:20.451-05:00Hi again Steve - how are ya?
I'll just addres...Hi again Steve - how are ya?<br /><br />I'll just address your questions here: <br /><br />"1) Does that mean you think hell is an actual place people can go to when they die?"<br /><br />I think ppl cooperate in perpetuating hell. We don't have to but we do.<br /> <br /><br />"2) If it did say in scripture that those who inhabit that place do despise it would that cause a problem for you or does it not matter what is in the bible?"<br /><br />Since I cannot find anywhere where it does say ppl despise being there, what's your point? Don't you want ppl to have a preference or do you want everyone to be a steve clone? I think Jesus gave even the demons a choice - they asked to perpetuate suicidal tendencies. Do you think demons would like to be where they couldn't act upon their preference? Heaven would be "hell" for them!!! You meanie!!!!!Manifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-19067695757371495312009-12-29T18:54:05.987-05:002009-12-29T18:54:05.987-05:00MMM, let's make this absolutely clear before y...MMM, let's make this absolutely clear before you misunderstand again - I do not think the bible says or implies anywhere that Jesus is or was or will be a paedophile. Okay?<br /><br />Have a careful look at what my question actually was, maybe you are just skim reading. I was asking if you have reasons other than what is in the bible for accepting or rejecting things in the bible. i.e. would you accept anything just because you thought it was a teaching of Jesus?<br /><br />You wrote of hell:<br />"I cannot find anywhere in scripture where it says that those inhabiting that place despise it."<br /><br />2 questions:<br /><br />1) Does that mean you think hell is an actual place people can go to when they die?<br /><br />2) If it did say in scripture that those who inhabit that place do despise it would that cause a problem for you or does it not matter what is in the bible?<br /><br />My purpose of writing this is to critique Christianity. This is the debunking Christianity blog so don't act surprised or think I have an ulterior motive. I've been very patient with you, so give me some credit. Read <a href="http://sites.google.com/site/leavingxtianity/home" rel="nofollow">my website</a> if you think I'm up to something underhand, you'll see I'm quite up front and transparent.Steve Lockshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08153017570263816987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-52361621024818661862009-12-29T18:40:06.988-05:002009-12-29T18:40:06.988-05:00Oh dear.
MMM I don't think Jesus said he was ...Oh dear.<br /><br />MMM I don't think Jesus said he was a paedophile, come on now!<br /><br />Answer my actual questions and you'll see why I'm asking. I've answered every one of your questions and you've never answered any of mine. You know it makes you feel anxious to answer my questions directly, but it is not really so scary.Steve Lockshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08153017570263816987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-13878880437498924642009-12-29T18:34:24.569-05:002009-12-29T18:34:24.569-05:00Steve: I'm glad you chose to address these iss...Steve: I'm glad you chose to address these issues as you have done so I can address your motivating interest in targetting one sector for guilt while ignoring another. There seems to be a double standard in your perspective.<br /><br />So, here goes:<br />What makes you think the bible indicates that Jesus is a pedophile? And why do you want it to?<br /><br />Why do you think a pedophile who defends or justifies their actions would like to be somewhere where that activity isn't allowed?Manifesting Mini Me (MMM)https://www.blogger.com/profile/08250513504254425163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-22095167037399479742009-12-29T15:52:10.721-05:002009-12-29T15:52:10.721-05:00Hello MMM,
Just to let you know I am not ignoring...Hello MMM,<br /><br />Just to let you know I am not ignoring you - I have written a long response to your latest 2 posts but on reflection I think my points will get lost if I give them all at once. So rather than post them all together I'll take it one thought at a time and see what you say step by step.<br /><br />You wrote of hell:<br />"I cannot find anywhere in scripture where it says that those inhabiting that place despise it."<br /><br />2 questions:<br /><br />1) Does that mean you think hell is an actual place people can go to when they die?<br /><br />2) If it did say in scripture that those who inhabit that place do despise it would that cause a problem for you or does it not matter what is in the bible? (Like my earlier example - if it said in the bible that Jesus said he is a paedophile would that be okay?) In other words, are some things unacceptable even if they were in the bible - is "those inhabiting hell despising it" one of those things you could not accept? <br /><br />Thanks.Steve Lockshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08153017570263816987noreply@blogger.com