tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post977444078362673254..comments2024-03-25T17:35:02.238-04:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: If God Has A Plan, Free Will Is An IllusionUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger73125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-52602323855694010022008-08-23T01:20:00.000-04:002008-08-23T01:20:00.000-04:00Jeceppe asks, "1) Do you think that such a God is ...Jeceppe asks, "1) Do you think that such a God is "free" to create. However, once He creates He would be acting "wrongly" against one of His creations to remove it's life (regardless of the reason)?<BR/>Or, restated:<BR/>2) In other words, is He free to create but then loses moral sovereignty over His creation (in the sense that certain actions now become wrong for Him) once He creates?"<BR/><BR/>You are still asking loaded questions. You ask if what god does is "wrong"; wrong from whose perspective, though?<BR/><BR/>Remember, you specified that this is the god of the bible we are talking about: the one that made "Thou shalt not kill!" a permanent, unchangable moral commandment. If he thinks killing is wrong then how can he take anyone's life without transgressing against his own moral code.<BR/><BR/>Now, perhaps, this was meant to only apply to us - we aren't allowed to kill but its still ok for him to kill. But if he's not bound by the same moral code that he wants us to live by then how are we to judge whether or not he is morally good?<BR/><BR/>And we must judge the biblical god, otherwise he couldn't hold us responsible for our own damnation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-54658589347650891422008-08-22T07:27:00.000-04:002008-08-22T07:27:00.000-04:00dingodave, rottenarsenal:Thanks for your replies.....dingodave, rottenarsenal:<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your replies...<BR/><BR/>Looks like a "Yes, No" from dingodave and a "Yes, Yes" from rottenarsenal; However, I believe rottenarsenal in his post agrees strongly with dingodave that God is culpable if He removes His hand and so I think really that you both think that He is not "morally" free to do the 2nd thing... So, it's really a "Yes, No" from both.<BR/><BR/>Arsenal: and I understand the distinction you are trying to make about the "rights" being sovereign (or taken away as in humans) and your comments about God doing what He wants...<BR/><BR/>So, to clarify and, again, granting the Christian God:<BR/><I><B>1) Do you think that such a God is "free" to create. However, once He creates He would be acting "wrongly" against one of His creations to remove it's life (regardless of the reason)?</B><BR/>Or, restated:<B><BR/>2) In other words, is He free to create but then loses moral sovereignty over His creation (in the sense that certain actions now become wrong for Him) once He creates?</B></I>Jaceppehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05569840643487354373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-72282031273938535632008-08-21T08:06:00.000-04:002008-08-21T08:06:00.000-04:00While I agree with DingoDave's answer's to Jaseppe...While I agree with DingoDave's answer's to Jaseppe's questions, I would also say this:<BR/><BR/>God is not bound by "rights" since he, according to the theists, created everything. He's got all the power as nothing is greater than him and so there is nothing constricting him to playing by any rules and morality is whatever he says it is.<BR/>So, he is within his "rights" to do whatever he pleases since he answers to no one. If he wants to change the rules in midstream, that's his prerogative. And it would seem that he does. <BR/>But again, if he's making up and changing the rules as he goes and not telling us what these rules actually are, then he's not benevolent, he's a tyrant. And sure, he can "withdraw His life sustaining hand from any of His creations" (which is a fancy way of saying "kill") but that doesn't make him a loving father... that again makes him a tyrant that will end someone's life for reasons know only to him. Why did those people on the bus die? God just "withdrew His life sustaining hand" from them? Sure, but why them and not the others? What did they do to deserve it and the others live? Oh, right... it's all a part of God's plan which again indicates that we are all following his maniacal, sadistic script towards the end of the world.<BR/><BR/>Point is, God doesn't have "rights" because "rights" can be taken away. God supposedly answers to no one so there is no one who can take away his rights. Further, he must not have morality since there is no one to teach it to him (the theist argument for atheists). So God just does what he pleases, unconcerned about whether anybody else thinks it is fair or just. By our standards, much of what he does is wrong, but then, the theists tell us that we don't have the option and luxury of saying God was wrong.<BR/><BR/>God is a big tyrant.Rotten Arsenalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17121549625443719860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-2806271124381428132008-08-21T05:20:00.000-04:002008-08-21T05:20:00.000-04:00Jaseppe asked:-"Given a God as described in t...Jaseppe asked:<BR/><BR/>-"Given a God as described in the Old and New Testaments:<BR/>1) Do you believe that such a Being would be within His rights and freedoms to create? (which would include creating us as well)"<BR/><BR/>Yes.<BR/><BR/>2) Do you believe that such a God would have the right to withdraw His life sustaining hand from any of His creations? (Remember, that God is described as the one who gives us life, breath, and all things; and in Whom we live & move & have our being)"<BR/><BR/>No. <BR/>No more than you would have the right to starve, torture or otherwise mistreat any of your children whom you also 'created' (in conjunction with your wife or girlfriend of course).<BR/>To do so would be considerd a criminal offence in all civilised countries on earth, and considering that the passage you quoted goes on to say "for we too are his offspring", then it should be considered a criminal offence for any god to do so either.DingoDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18386229762871857788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-41621628349642481582008-08-20T21:46:00.000-04:002008-08-20T21:46:00.000-04:00All,The following 2 questions are really for some ...All,<BR/><BR/>The following 2 questions are really for some of you who have been speaking rather harshly against the God described in the Bible; although I am interested in any answers posted:<BR/><BR/>Given a God as described in the Old and New Testaments:<BR/><I><B>1) Do you believe that such a Being would be within His rights and freedoms to create?</B> (which would include creating us as well)<BR/><B><BR/>2) Do you believe that such a God would have the right to withdraw His life sustaining hand from any of His creations? </B>(Remember, that God is described as the one who gives us life, breath, and all things; and in Whom we live & move & have our being)</I><BR/><BR/>This tangentially relates to posts regarding examples of people dying et.al. which some of you have contributed to...<BR/><BR/>I am interested in any an all responses...Jaceppehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05569840643487354373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-76160051683852912352008-08-19T23:20:00.000-04:002008-08-19T23:20:00.000-04:00Yes Marc, and ultimately, since God created evil a...Yes Marc, and ultimately, since God created evil and allows evil to play it's role in his big mystery play, God is responsible for every evil occurrence that ever has or ever will happen.<BR/><BR/>That's why I find it reprehensible when people "Thank God" for saving some people in a disaster, but not others.<BR/><BR/>But this is a little off topic, so I digress.Rotten Arsenalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17121549625443719860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-81371269094861675712008-08-19T21:21:00.000-04:002008-08-19T21:21:00.000-04:00Oh, by the way Rachel, the Bible doesn't even teac...Oh, by the way Rachel, the Bible doesn't even teach the doctrine of freewill, it teaches predestination.<BR/> <BR/>Some of the Bible authors realised the impossibility of reconciling an omnipotent, omniscient god with the doctrine of freewill, and so were forced to abandon the concept entirely. But hey, at least they were honest enough to admit it, regardless of how cruel and injust the concept obviously is. <BR/><BR/>Paul even went as far as to say that what God ultimately chooses to do with us, is in the end, none of our business.<BR/>Can you imagine anything more evil than this?<BR/><BR/>Anyway, here are some relevent texts.<BR/><BR/>Acts.4<BR/>[27] for truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, <BR/>[28] to do whatever thy hand and thy plan had predestined to take place. <BR/><BR/>Rom.8<BR/>[29] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. <BR/>[30] And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. <BR/><BR/>Rom.9<BR/>[11] though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call, <BR/>[12] she was told, "The elder will serve the younger." <BR/>[13] As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." <BR/>[14] What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! <BR/>[15] For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." <BR/>[16] So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy. <BR/>[17] For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth." <BR/>[18] So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills. <BR/>[19] You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" <BR/>[20] But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?" <BR/>[21] Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? <BR/>[22] What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, <BR/>[23] in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory,<BR/><BR/>Well my dear Rachel, I am not an inanimate object, and I do care about whether I am predestined to experience an eternity of unspeakable suffering at the hands of some sadistic cosmic puppet master.<BR/><BR/>As far as I'm concerned, Paul can take his callous and worthless opinions, and shove them where the sun don't shine.DingoDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18386229762871857788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-84531213362864855582008-08-19T18:51:00.000-04:002008-08-19T18:51:00.000-04:00It just sunk in how screwed god is.Even if there i...It just sunk in how screwed god is.<BR/><BR/>Even if there is some logical solution that allows free will to exist with omnipotence, god slams right into the problem of evil.<BR/><BR/>God knows exactly what I'll do throughout my life. He knows before I am born, yet allows me to exist anyway.<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, god knows exactly what information I would need to follow him, yet withholds it from me.<BR/><BR/>And for a finite crime, that he could stop or not have allowed to happen, condemns me to eternal torture. Nice.MHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15700875611169531647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-14380280737604966092008-08-19T17:41:00.000-04:002008-08-19T17:41:00.000-04:00Rachel:It absolutely does matter who fixed the fut...Rachel:<BR/><BR/><I>It absolutely does matter who fixed the future. If I decide that I'll go to the store tomorrow and get some bread, then when tomorrow comes I go to the store and get some bread, was I "forced" into going to the store against my will? However, if someone holds a gun to my head and tells me to go to the store tomorrow or they'll shoot, and I go to the store, did I go to the store of my own free will? Either way I went to the store, but who makes the decision makes all the difference as to whether my going to the store could be considered to be a free will action or not.</I><BR/><BR/>Your gunman is irrelevant. God knew that the gunman would force you to go the store. Omniscient God knows that you will go to the store, why you will go to the store, why the gunman makes you go to the store, and every minor detail leading up to your and the gunman's existing in the first place. If God is omniscient, then he knows the scenario and all the scenarios that lead up to it. Maybe God didn't "fix" the event, but regardless if he is infallible and he knows all and he knew you were going to the store, then he knew why you were going to the store. You never had any real choice in the matter or else God wouldn't know you were going to the store.<BR/><BR/>Again, 2 + n = 4. n can only be one thing... n doesn't have the option of choosing to be anything other than 2. For n to be something other than 2, there must be another variable, but for God, there are no variables for variables are unknown and there is no unknown for God. <BR/><BR/>Are we even arguing the same thing here? I'm arguing about the incompatible nature of free will and God's omniscience. I'm starting to wonder if you are arguing the same thing.<BR/><BR/><I>This just doesn't make any sense. How do you get from "God knows what choices I will make" to "there is no purpose to our actions" and "I have no control"? God's knowledge of my choices doesn't make them any less my choices.</I><BR/><BR/>Sure it makes sense, silly rabbit. If God knows all my "choices", ergo he knows my every move and has known my every move since the bgeinning, then I am simply following the script that God already has. The script is written and I will act out my part to the conclusion of my role. It's already written what I will do so I have no control over it and it holds no reason or purpose for me since I am but pre-programmed character in God's never ending sitcom. Perhaps I have some meaning for God (wacky neighbor?), but there's none for me since my every thought and action has been scripted.<BR/>This is, of course, if God is actually omniscient.<BR/><BR/>Even if God is sitting there in is Laz-E-God, watching the events unfold and says that I'm supposed to do x, but I end up doing y, he still knew that I wouldn't do what he wanted me to do from the get go. I didn't deviate from the script, that's the way God always knew it would happen.Rotten Arsenalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17121549625443719860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-83869369761624443012008-08-19T17:33:00.000-04:002008-08-19T17:33:00.000-04:00I wrote:Rachel wrote,-"I guess you could say that ...I wrote:<BR/><BR/>Rachel wrote,<BR/>-"I guess you could say that God knows every outcome of every possible choice you make, but then that means that God doesn't know for sure which choice you will actually make... that's free will."<BR/>Lee replied:<BR/>-"and nullifies gods omniscience"<BR/><BR/>Rachel replied:<BR/>-"Sorry, but I didn't write that either, that was Rotten Arsenal. Between this and the rest of your comment directed to me, I get the impression you were just skimming, because I've already answered the comments you made. Go back to my analogy about God making the t-shirts for the winning team - if God only makes one set of t-shirts, does that nullify the free will of either team and "force" each team to play according to some script predetermined by some outside agent?"<BR/><BR/>You're quite correct Rachel, you didn't write that. Please accept my apologies. I see now that it was written in response to your statement; <BR/>-"So I'll ask again, if my future is fixed as a result of my own choices, how is that a problem? Someone else knowing what I'll do doesn't affect my actual ability to freely choose in the least."<BR/><BR/>You also wrote:<BR/>-"I've asked this several times and will ask it again: If my future is fixed, but I'm the one that fixed it, how is that a problem? God can "have a plan" by looking ahead to the choices we will make, and planning certain actions or non-actions as a result. Thus, God has a plan, yet I still have free will."<BR/>and,<BR/>-"This still doesn't address my point that as long as the future is determined by me, whether or not it's fixed doesn't change anything - certainly not my ability to freely choose."<BR/><BR/>My point still stands. Are you suggesting that we humans can alter God's immutable plan for the universe, or not? If we have the ability to change God's plan against his will, then he is not omnipotent. If we do not have that ability, then our destinies are fixed and there is nothing that we can do to change it. You want to have your cake and eat it to.<BR/>And it's not true that we fix our own destinies. We may be able to influence them, but in the end, there are so many outside influences and variables which are out of our control, that it is ludicrous to assert that we can in any way 'fix' our own destinies all by ourselves.<BR/><BR/>Your analogy about the t-shirts also fails, because according to the Christian world view, God created the teams themselves, not just the t-shirts for the winning team.<BR/>Either your god is omnipotent and has an immutable plan for the universe, or he does not. Make up your mind which you believe, because as much as you'd like to, you can't have it both ways. If he is omnipotent, and immutable, then we are merely actors on a cosmic stage who are playing out a pre-determined script.DingoDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18386229762871857788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-14064895053900874622008-08-19T17:24:00.000-04:002008-08-19T17:24:00.000-04:00rayndeon:Are you a logical fatalist?Nope. More imp...rayndeon:<BR/><BR/><I>Are you a logical fatalist?</I><BR/><BR/>Nope. <BR/><BR/><I><BR/>More importantly, what makes you think that the only coherent and relevant definition of freedom is libertarian freedom? <BR/><BR/>Frankly, I can't see this being a problem for theists - except those that cling to libertarian freedom, not compatibilist freedom.</I><BR/><BR/>I don't think that the only rational definition is libertarian freedom. I'm just trying to show that God can't be omniscient if we have free will and vice versa. Compatibilist freedom, libertarian, fatalist... none of it is a problem for theists because despite their claims to the contrary, they can rather easily hide logic under the sofa when the need to ignore it to keep selling their dogma.<BR/><BR/>I generally don't much care about the philosophical attributes of fate vs free will. It really makes no difference to me. Either I have control of my own destiny or I don't. Either way, I don't know which it is so it's moot to discuss.<BR/>I don't believe in God, however, and find his followers nagging need to run my life as they run theirs a worthy cause to argue against. <BR/><BR/>BTW, which Dallas school are you attending? I'm in the area.Rotten Arsenalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17121549625443719860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-13738489836108837322008-08-19T02:46:00.000-04:002008-08-19T02:46:00.000-04:00rachel says:Go back to my analogy about God making...rachel says:<BR/><BR/><I>Go back to my analogy about God making the t-shirts for the winning team - if God only makes one set of t-shirts, does that nullify the free will of either team and "force" each team to play according to some script predetermined by some outside agent?</I><BR/><BR/>But rachel, God did not only make the t-shirts: He made the teams too. If He is omniscient and omnipotent, He wrote the script, and made the teams in exactly such a way that they would follow the script. They might think they are free to play the game as they please, but this is an illusion: they have no more freedom than Fred and Barney do in a film that Hanna-Barbera already have in the can.<BR/><BR/>I get the impression that people who insist on God's omniscience and omnipotence, but claim we have free will nonetheless, either think that "free will" is some sort of magic black box that God can grant us that is somehow impenetrable to His omniscience and omnipotence, or they haven't really thought through the logical consequences.zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-558560847718512082008-08-19T02:06:00.000-04:002008-08-19T02:06:00.000-04:00Dave,Rachel wrote:-"I guess you could say that God...Dave,<BR/><BR/><I>Rachel wrote:<BR/>-"I guess you could say that God knows every outcome of every possible choice you make, but then that means that God doesn't know for sure which choice you will actually make... that's free will."<BR/><BR/>Lee replied:<BR/>-"and nullifies gods omniscience"</I><BR/><BR/>Sorry, but I didn't write that either, that was Rotten Arsenal. Between this and the rest of your comment directed to me, I get the impression you were just skimming, because I've already answered the comments you made. Go back to my analogy about God making the t-shirts for the winning team - if God only makes one set of t-shirts, does that nullify the free will of either team and "force" each team to play according to some script predetermined by some outside agent?Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00990773174601680586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-32766177840100492492008-08-19T01:52:00.000-04:002008-08-19T01:52:00.000-04:00RA,Either you have free will and God doesn't know ...RA,<BR/><BR/><I>Either you have free will and God doesn't know what you will do, or God knows what you will do and you are stuck following the script. It doesn't matter who fixed the future.</I><BR/><BR/>It absolutely does matter who fixed the future. If I decide that I'll go to the store tomorrow and get some bread, then when tomorrow comes I go to the store and get some bread, was I "forced" into going to the store against my will? However, if someone holds a gun to my head and tells me to go to the store tomorrow or they'll shoot, and I go to the store, did I go to the store of my own free will? Either way I went to the store, but <I>who makes the decision</I> makes all the difference as to whether my going to the store could be considered to be a free will action or not.<BR/><BR/><I>If God created a universe that holds no surprise for him, and he knows everything that will happen BEFORE HE EVEN CREATES IT, then there is no purpose to our actions and we have already been judged. (snip) it doesn't matter what I do (snip) I would be punished for something I had no control over because it had already happened in God's eyes.</I><BR/><BR/>This just doesn't make any sense. How do you get from "God knows what choices I will make" to "there is no purpose to our actions" and "I have no control"? God's knowledge of my choices doesn't make them any less my choices.<BR/><BR/><I>Crud... I hate debates about time travel.</I><BR/><BR/>"The future is the past, the past is the future... it all gives me a headache."<BR/><BR/>Any sci-fi trivia buffs want to guess who said that? (no google cheating)Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00990773174601680586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-77166557840107257742008-08-18T19:24:00.000-04:002008-08-18T19:24:00.000-04:00Arsenal,What makes you think that the truth of (T)...Arsenal,<BR/><BR/>What makes you think that the truth of (T)<BR/><BR/>(T) S will do A at time t<BR/><BR/>necessarily deprives S of their free will? Are you a logical fatalist? <BR/><BR/>More importantly, what makes you think that the only coherent and relevant definition of freedom is libertarian freedom? <BR/><BR/>Frankly, I can't see this being a problem for theists - except those that cling to libertarian freedom, not compatibilist freedom.Rayndeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14288435564500319699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-23267100172992228262008-08-18T18:21:00.000-04:002008-08-18T18:21:00.000-04:00Rachel,Again, you seem to be assuming that "it's a...Rachel,<BR/><BR/><I>Again, you seem to be assuming that "it's already been determined" by some other agent besides me. This still doesn't address my point that as long as the future is determined by me, whether or not it's fixed doesn't change anything - certainly not my ability to freely choose.</I><BR/><BR/>If the future is fixed, then how do we have choice? If, at this moment, it is "fixed" that you will give a homeless man money, then you WILL give that homeless man money. You might rationalize it that you chose to give him money, but it has already been set into the timestream that you will do this. <BR/>The real question is, when did this event become fixed? Because it's that determination point that really decides this argument. Was it fixed when God created the universe? In which case, God knew you would give the man money millenia before you ever came into existence. Fo God to be omniscient, this MUST be the case. If God knows all that ever is, was, and shall be, then he knew at the dawn of creation that you would give this man money. It was fixed. You can't NOT choose to do it, otherwise, God didn't know you wouldn't do it. Or, God had no idea what you would do in that instance... thus, you have free will but God lacks omniscience. For God to be omniscient, he would no the outcome of all and it can't change. It's one or the other, it can't be both.<BR/><BR/>Besides, even if the future is your decision, it's also billions of other people's decisions. Every little thing has to fall into place for you to even have the decision to give the guy money. The guy has to decide to be at that spot, your parents had to decide to create you, all of your ancestors and the homeless guy's ancestors had to make billions of decisions that put them all in the proper place to cause the chain of events that led to you giving the guy money. <BR/><BR/>So, bringing in that poor piece of Sci-Fi Channel-level fiction, it comes down to one of these:<BR/><BR/>A) You have free will and can make whatever decision you want but God CANNOT be omniscient since every choice directs the future<BR/><BR/>B) God is omniscient since he knows how the future plays out. This means that the future is entirely fixed and regardless of what you "choose", you will always end up making the same decisions that God has foreseen.<BR/><BR/>C) You have free will, to some degree, in that every choice you make begins the paths down multiple "fixed" futures, all of which God knows. God is omniscient in knowing every possible outcome (infinite) of every possible decision of every living thing in the universe for all time. You have free will only in that you decide which divergent timeline you will follow (not create, since the timeline must already exist for God to know it). <BR/><BR/>The first two are all or nothing. Either you have free will and God doesn't know what you will do, or God knows what you will do and you are stuck following the script. It doesn't matter who fixed the future. Either the future is fixed because God has already seen how it plays out, or it's not fixed at all and God doesn't know how it will all play out.<BR/><BR/>The third scenario could be true, but it opens a whole new can of worms. If there are multiple timelines and God knows them all, then there must be some that are more right than others (or more wrong). There must be a timeline where Adam & Eve didn't eat the apple... there must be a timeline where the Jews constantly make God happy and therefore have no need of a Messiah at all... there must be a timeline where Joseph and Mary never existed... there must be a timeline where Christianity DOESN'T EXIST. Besides, this destroys the possibility of End Times prophecy because somewhere, there is a timeline where every human has done exactly as God told them to meaning God has no reason to ever destroy them. There is no evil in the world (by God's standards) and so he would have to change his reasons (from what we're currently told) to bring about the End, making God's will ever changing and not set in stone.<BR/><BR/>Crud... I hate debates about time travel. <BR/><BR/><I>So God should only create a universe that has some surprises for him in it? That's a strange criteria, besides the fact that a "surprise" is impossible for any being with omniscience - and any being w/o omniscience wouldn't be God.</I><BR/><BR/>If God created a universe that holds no surprise for him, and he knows everything that will happen BEFORE HE EVEN CREATES IT, then there is no purpose to our actions and we have already been judged. In God's omniscience, he knew the very day that he seperated the light from the dark that you would be a loyal follower and I wouldn't believe in him. If for any reason I ever start believing in him, he knew that would happen as well and so it doesn't matter what I do. If I die as an atheist, he knew I would die as an atheist and again, it didn't matter at all what i thought I chose during life, God already knew I would die an atheist for all eternity. Since that is the case, I would be punished for something I had no control over because it had already happened in God's eyes.Rotten Arsenalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17121549625443719860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-63928007308120525272008-08-18T18:10:00.000-04:002008-08-18T18:10:00.000-04:00Jason wrote:-"Perfect knowledge doesn't remove fre...Jason wrote:<BR/>-"Perfect knowledge doesn't remove freewill because knowledge can't achieve anything by itself. If, in my perfect knowledge, I know that a mine in China will collapse and kill 100 people in 2048, my knowledge hasn't forced the mine to collapse."<BR/><BR/>You apologists simply can't help anthropomorphising your supposedly omnipotent, omniscient creator can you?<BR/><BR/>If you were the engineer responsible for the design of the mine, and if you had an immutable plan for the mining operation, part of which involved the mine collapsing, then you would definitely be held responsible for it's collapse. <BR/>The other point which you apparently fail to recognise in your analogy, is that if you were certain that the mine was going to collapse, and yet chose to do nothing to help avert the tragedy, then you as the chief engineer would be held DIRECTLY responsible the deaths of all those unsuspecting miners. <BR/>Society would judge you harshly as being an uncaring, or even sadistic wretch. <BR/>You would be formally charged with gross incompetence, dereliction of duty, and criminal negligence. You would no doubt lose your job, and would most probably be condemned to serve a lengthy jail sentence for your actions. And rightly so! <BR/>To further the analogy, it is you who is playing the part of an unscrupulous attorney who is attempting to get the engineer off the hook in this case. <BR/><BR/>Rachel wrote:<BR/>-"I guess you could say that God knows every outcome of every possible choice you make, but then that means that God doesn't know for sure which choice you will actually make... that's free will."<BR/><BR/>Lee replied:<BR/>-"and nullifies gods omniscience"<BR/><BR/>Rachel wrote:<BR/>-"This still doesn't address my point that as long as the future is determined by me, whether or not it's fixed doesn't change anything - certainly not my ability to freely choose."<BR/><BR/>Are you suggesting that we humans can interfere with God's immutable plan for the universe? If the outcome is fixed, then we are powerless to change it, and freewill is merely an illusion. So which is it? Make up your mind.<BR/><BR/>At least Rachel is consistently inconsistent. : )<BR/>She must hail from Jason's school of apologetics i.e. throw God's attributes out of the window when they don't suit the agenda! <BR/>If omnipotence makes God look like an arsehole, then to hell with omnipotence! But only when it suits.DingoDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18386229762871857788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-40894766732512133102008-08-17T17:31:00.000-04:002008-08-17T17:31:00.000-04:00RA,You seem to remain focused on the "what": that ...RA,<BR/><BR/>You seem to remain focused on the "what": that our future is fixed; while I am explaining the "why" or "how": the future is fixed <I>by our own choices</I>. Even your example of the recorded movie fits perfectly with what I'm trying to say, in fact I had thought of using it myself. Every aspect of that movie is fixed, but <BR/>fixed <I>by whom</I>? That's the whole point. As long as the future is <I>my</I> decision, a thousand people could know it and it wouldn't change the fact that *I* am the one who determined the future.<BR/><BR/><I>Explain to me how you are choosing to give the guy money if it's already been determined that you will?</I><BR/><BR/>Again, you seem to be assuming that "it's already been determined" by <I>some other agent</I> besides me. This still doesn't address my point that as long as the future is determined <I>by me</I>, whether or not it's fixed doesn't change anything - certainly not my ability to freely choose.<BR/><BR/><I>Why would God, who knows everything that ever has or will happen, create a universe that has no suprise for him at all?</I><BR/><BR/>So God should only create a universe that has some surprises for him in it? That's a strange criteria, besides the fact that a "surprise" is impossible for any being with omniscience - and any being w/o omniscience wouldn't be God.<BR/><BR/>You might find <A HREF="http://metaschema.blogspot.com/2008/02/freedom.html" REL="nofollow">this story</A> interesting. It helps illustrate my point that the future being fixed isn't a problem if it's fixed by my own choices, i.e. I'm the one that fixed it. It's not a perfect analogy, but it's the right idea.Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00990773174601680586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-30797013228862394422008-08-17T01:00:00.000-04:002008-08-17T01:00:00.000-04:00fishhawk, don't worry about it. I was just trying...fishhawk, <BR/>don't worry about it. I was just trying to avoid a potential misunderstanding.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-86880136071653068782008-08-17T00:59:00.000-04:002008-08-17T00:59:00.000-04:00Hi Jaceppe,thanks for sticking around. I simply be...Hi Jaceppe,<BR/>thanks for sticking around.<BR/><B><I> I simply believe there is an area in each that is not fully knowable to us; whereas you seem to think this is not true or that "unknowable" portion is not relevant (I'm not quite sure)</I></B><BR/>I think we know enough about it to say its logically inconsistent and taken together with the rest of what we know about god, which all comes from the bible, that it all qualifies as folklore.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-4867669367952424792008-08-16T12:23:00.000-04:002008-08-16T12:23:00.000-04:00Lee,Thanks again for your response...Just a couple...Lee,<BR/><BR/>Thanks again for your response...<BR/><BR/>Just a couple quick comments due to lack of time right now...<BR/><BR/>You quoted me then added some text as follows:<BR/><B>me:</B><BR/><I> So then, I assume you would also accept as an argument For God’s existence the fact that there are theists? Seems to offer the same type evidence as yours does… :-)</I><BR/><B>you</B><BR/><I>no Jaceppe, if you stop and think about what you are writing you would come up with a critical question like the following...</I><BR/><BR/>You went on to say why you thought the existence of athiests was stronger evidence <I>against God</I> then thiests evidence <I>for God</I>...<BR/>On it's own, I thought you spoke well and I can see why you reasonably believe that... however, this is not the total story. Scripture also talks about the idea of a <I>hardened heart</I> Eph 4:18, Ro 1:21 (et.al. as there are many such references). In many of these the hardened heart is a major contributor to why they can believe or hardens over time to the point where they can't due to willful sin... etc... I remembered a quote (but unfortunately can't recall where nor has the web helped me find...) by a prominent atheist ... I will paraphrase it as follows, he said "If you Christians could prove this God to me I would be more likely to not believe in Him"... Now, since I can't cite who said that and where I fully expect you to reject it... :-) that's ok... I'll keep looking. But, I do recall it and I beleive it demonstrates that more than mere intellectual appeal is at work... the willfullness of the heart is also involved...<BR/><BR/>Then you asked me if I was agnostic in relation to either GS or HFW. No, I affirm both. I also agree with you regarding certain aspects of our choices though... e.g. your tequila example. Or, another, if I choose to drink 1&1/2 gallons of water in a short time-span then there will be another "choice" I have to make sometime in the future. I may be able to delay it (to a point... i.e.) but, it is almost sure that I must make that 2nd choice (which one could argue is not a choice at all).<BR/><BR/>It seems to me the main place we disagree on this is in how well you and I think the concepts of GS and HFW can be adequately understood. I simply believe there is an area in each that is not fully knowable to us; whereas you seem to think this is not true or that "unknowable" portion is not relevant (I'm not quite sure). However, I think the "unknowable" area is substantial enough to render your attempt to juxtapose them definitively as you are doing open to much uncertainty... <BR/><BR/>I had alot more to say but I'm out of time...Jaceppehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05569840643487354373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-69173831140302815562008-08-16T03:00:00.000-04:002008-08-16T03:00:00.000-04:00To throw another rusty wrench into the christian w...To throw another rusty wrench into the christian works -- what about the free will/sinner equation?<BR/><BR/>If we are all "sinners" by birth, and if "sin" is "evil", then we don't have the "free will" to resist "evil".<BR/><BR/>No Free Will.<BR/><BR/>--S.sconnorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17473671062467783406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-5026268956580865822008-08-16T02:15:00.000-04:002008-08-16T02:15:00.000-04:00My apologies for making any reference unto joking....My apologies for making any reference unto joking. For I do take the discussion here seriously, and it should not have been trivialized in any way, shape or form.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16349087080262856079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-14761946018861965392008-08-15T23:59:00.000-04:002008-08-15T23:59:00.000-04:00Hi Rotten,thanks for fielding Rachel.I want to add...Hi Rotten,<BR/>thanks for fielding Rachel.<BR/>I want to add one thing to what you said.<BR/><B><I>I guess you could say that God knows every outcome of every possible choice you make, but then that means that God doesn't know for sure which choice you will actually make... that's free will.</I></B><BR/><BR/>and nullifies gods omniscience.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-3949110575109930402008-08-15T23:46:00.000-04:002008-08-15T23:46:00.000-04:00Jason,you are banned. I don't know who let you th...Jason,<BR/>you are banned. I don't know who let you through but I just rejected your last comment and will keep rejecting until our policy changes.<BR/><BR/>I didn't read the thread where you got banned, but I assume you got banned because you argue in circles and are therefore disruptive and distracting to the dialogue.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.com