tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post1846579974736732117..comments2024-03-25T17:35:02.238-04:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: Bayesian Background PriorsUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-61076118408570588022010-11-19T12:23:51.836-05:002010-11-19T12:23:51.836-05:00Note: It appears that I was partially wrong in som...Note: It appears that I was partially wrong in something I said in this forum about another poster: <br /><br />¨Angry Atheist" aka Ken?) A guy who, when confronted (not just by me) with the absurdity of his arguments, those he is willing to show, that is, laspses into fantasies about the death of his opponent, pornographical posts, and obscurity of the kind we all know and love -- I'm right because no one is going to follow me to THIS web site and prove me wrong?¨<br /><br />Ken tells me he is not ¨Angry Atheist.¨ If so, then he is not the one responsible for the pornographic hate mail. (He was, however, responsible for that other stuff I described.)<br /><br />There were reasons for thinking it was him, but I accept his word, and apologize for my error. I am glad to know Ken did not make those posts.David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1822375513955645032010-10-13T12:48:40.757-04:002010-10-13T12:48:40.757-04:00John: The only one of those passages I mentioned, ...John: The only one of those passages I mentioned, in response to your OP, was Psalm 22. I do think it fits the Gospel account remarkably well. Most of the conversation has been about Isaiah, though, and being pretty busy myself (I have a seminar for my dissertation coming up in a few weeks, am flying to Iceland tomorrow, and am putting together an anthology of my own, as well), I'd rather not skoot off to another part of the Bible right now.David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-15040393134365429822010-10-13T09:45:20.282-04:002010-10-13T09:45:20.282-04:00BTW, Rebel1 who has been ignored has posted precis...BTW, Rebel1 who has been ignored has posted precisely a point that I have made. You can speak of probability, but when you do, unless do some real statistical math, it is a subjective appeal.<br /><br />Hey, we really do have a subjective sense of probability. I suppose some people who are succesful gamblers have this going on, but here, as is the common problem with what is subjective, it isn't necessarily translating.<br /><br /><br /><br />John, bringing up the psalms is all good and well, but whether the same thing with the psalms can be demonstrated as with Isaiah 52-3, it doesn't skirt the issue of Isaiah 52 and 53 as fitting Jesus.<br /><br />I certainly don't depend upon all fulfillment claims in the New Testament to refer to fulfilled predictions. I see no reason why my suggestion can't serve, that what they highlighting was not predictions that were successful but rather how Jesus life echoed the old testament in many places.Rob Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08937716910001145836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-68775858355405559052010-10-13T07:22:49.098-04:002010-10-13T07:22:49.098-04:00...and Psalm 69:
1 Save me, O God,
for the......and Psalm 69:<br /><br />1 Save me, O God,<br /> for the waters have come up to my neck.<br /><br /> 2 I sink in the miry depths,<br /> where there is no foothold.<br /> I have come into the deep waters;<br /> the floods engulf me.<br /><br /> 3 I am worn out calling for help;<br /> my throat is parched.<br /> My eyes fail,<br /> looking for my God.<br /><br /> 4 Those who hate me without reason<br /> outnumber the hairs of my head;<br /> many are my enemies without cause,<br /> those who seek to destroy me.<br /> I am forced to restore<br /> what I did not steal.<br /><br /> 5 You know my folly, O God;<br /> my guilt is not hidden from you.<br /><br /> 6 May those who hope in you<br /> not be disgraced because of me,<br /> O Lord, the LORD Almighty;<br /> may those who seek you<br /> not be put to shame because of me,<br /> O God of Israel.<br /><br /> 7 For I endure scorn for your sake,<br /> and shame covers my face.<br /><br /> 8 I am a stranger to my brothers,<br /> an alien to my own mother's sons;<br /><br /> 9 for zeal for your house consumes me,<br /> and the insults of those who insult you fall on me.<br /><br /> 10 When I weep and fast,<br /> I must endure scorn;<br /><br /> 11 when I put on sackcloth,<br /> people make sport of me.<br /><br /> 12 Those who sit at the gate mock me,<br /> and I am the song of the drunkards.<br /><br /> 13 But I pray to you, O LORD,<br /> in the time of your favor;<br /> in your great love, O God,<br /> answer me with your sure salvation.<br /><br /> 14 Rescue me from the mire,<br /> do not let me sink;<br /> deliver me from those who hate me,<br /> from the deep waters.<br /><br /> 15 Do not let the floodwaters engulf me<br /> or the depths swallow me up<br /> or the pit close its mouth over me.<br /><br /> 16 Answer me, O LORD, out of the goodness of your love;<br /> in your great mercy turn to me.<br /><br /> 17 Do not hide your face from your servant;<br /> answer me quickly, for I am in trouble.<br /><br /> 18 Come near and rescue me;<br /> redeem me because of my foes.<br /><br /> 19 You know how I am scorned, disgraced and shamed;<br /> all my enemies are before you.<br /><br /> 20 Scorn has broken my heart<br /> and has left me helpless;<br /> I looked for sympathy, but there was none,<br /> for comforters, but I found none.<br /><br /> 21 They put gall in my food<br /> and gave me vinegar for my thirst.<br /><br /> 22 May the table set before them become a snare;<br /> may it become retribution and [a] a trap.<br /><br /> 23 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,<br /> and their backs be bent forever.<br /><br /> 24 Pour out your wrath on them;<br /> let your fierce anger overtake them.<br /><br /> 25 May their place be deserted;<br /> let there be no one to dwell in their tents.<br /><br /> 26 For they persecute those you wound<br /> and talk about the pain of those you hurt.<br /><br /> 27 Charge them with crime upon crime;<br /> do not let them share in your salvation.<br /><br /> 28 May they be blotted out of the book of life<br /> and not be listed with the righteous.<br /><br /> 29 I am in pain and distress;<br /> may your salvation, O God, protect me.<br /><br /> 30 I will praise God's name in song<br /> and glorify him with thanksgiving.<br /><br /> 31 This will please the LORD more than an ox,<br /> more than a bull with its horns and hoofs.<br /><br /> 32 The poor will see and be glad—<br /> you who seek God, may your hearts live!<br /><br /> 33 The LORD hears the needy<br /> and does not despise his captive people.<br /><br /> 34 Let heaven and earth praise him,<br /> the seas and all that move in them,<br /><br /> 35 for God will save Zion<br /> and rebuild the cities of Judah.<br /> Then people will settle there and possess it;<br /><br /> 36 the children of his servants will inherit it,<br /> and those who love his name will dwell there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-710281211109211782010-10-13T07:21:32.157-04:002010-10-13T07:21:32.157-04:00David do Psalm 22 too:
1 My God, my God, why have...David do Psalm 22 too:<br /><br />1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?<br /> Why are you so far from saving me,<br /> so far from the words of my groaning?<br /><br /> 2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,<br /> by night, and am not silent.<br /><br /> 3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;<br /> you are the praise of Israel. [a]<br /><br /> 4 In you our fathers put their trust;<br /> they trusted and you delivered them.<br /><br /> 5 They cried to you and were saved;<br /> in you they trusted and were not disappointed.<br /><br /> 6 But I am a worm and not a man,<br /> scorned by men and despised by the people.<br /><br /> 7 All who see me mock me;<br /> they hurl insults, shaking their heads:<br /><br /> 8 "He trusts in the LORD;<br /> let the LORD rescue him.<br /> Let him deliver him,<br /> since he delights in him."<br /><br /> 9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;<br /> you made me trust in you<br /> even at my mother's breast.<br /><br /> 10 From birth I was cast upon you;<br /> from my mother's womb you have been my God.<br /><br /> 11 Do not be far from me,<br /> for trouble is near<br /> and there is no one to help.<br /><br /> 12 Many bulls surround me;<br /> strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.<br /><br /> 13 Roaring lions tearing their prey<br /> open their mouths wide against me.<br /><br /> 14 I am poured out like water,<br /> and all my bones are out of joint.<br /> My heart has turned to wax;<br /> it has melted away within me.<br /><br /> 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,<br /> and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;<br /> you lay me [b] in the dust of death.<br /><br /> 16 Dogs have surrounded me;<br /> a band of evil men has encircled me,<br /> they have pierced [c] my hands and my feet.<br /><br /> 17 I can count all my bones;<br /> people stare and gloat over me.<br /><br /> 18 They divide my garments among them<br /> and cast lots for my clothing.<br /><br /> 19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;<br /> O my Strength, come quickly to help me.<br /><br /> 20 Deliver my life from the sword,<br /> my precious life from the power of the dogs.<br /><br /> 21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;<br /> save [d] me from the horns of the wild oxen.<br /><br /> 22 I will declare your name to my brothers;<br /> in the congregation I will praise you.<br /><br /> 23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!<br /> All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!<br /> Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!<br /><br /> 24 For he has not despised or disdained<br /> the suffering of the afflicted one;<br /> he has not hidden his face from him<br /> but has listened to his cry for help.<br /><br /> 25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;<br /> before those who fear you [e] will I fulfill my vows.<br /><br /> 26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;<br /> they who seek the LORD will praise him—<br /> may your hearts live forever!<br /><br /> 27 All the ends of the earth<br /> will remember and turn to the LORD,<br /> and all the families of the nations<br /> will bow down before him,<br /><br /> 28 for dominion belongs to the LORD<br /> and he rules over the nations.<br /><br /> 29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;<br /> all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—<br /> those who cannot keep themselves alive.<br /><br /> 30 Posterity will serve him;<br /> future generations will be told about the Lord.<br /><br /> 31 They will proclaim his righteousness<br /> to a people yet unborn—<br /> for he has done it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-48553937664692331482010-10-13T07:19:16.292-04:002010-10-13T07:19:16.292-04:00David, do that analysis with Micah 5 while you'...David, do that analysis with Micah 5 while you're doing such things. Show me how this chapter has an astounding fit to Jesus. Stay focused: <br /><br />1 Marshal your troops, O city of troops, [a]<br /> for a siege is laid against us.<br /> They will strike Israel's ruler<br /> on the cheek with a rod.<br /><br /> 2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,<br /> though you are small among the clans [b] of Judah,<br /> out of you will come for me<br /> one who will be ruler over Israel,<br /> whose origins [c] are from of old,<br /> from ancient times. [d] "<br /><br /> 3 Therefore Israel will be abandoned<br /> until the time when she who is in labor gives birth<br /> and the rest of his brothers return<br /> to join the Israelites.<br /><br /> 4 He will stand and shepherd his flock<br /> in the strength of the LORD,<br /> in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God.<br /> And they will live securely, for then his greatness<br /> will reach to the ends of the earth.<br /><br /> 5 And he will be their peace.<br /> <br />Deliverance and Destruction<br /> When the Assyrian invades our land<br /> and marches through our fortresses,<br /> we will raise against him seven shepherds,<br /> even eight leaders of men.<br /><br /> 6 They will rule [e] the land of Assyria with the sword,<br /> the land of Nimrod with drawn sword. [f]<br /> He will deliver us from the Assyrian<br /> when he invades our land<br /> and marches into our borders.<br /><br /> 7 The remnant of Jacob will be<br /> in the midst of many peoples<br /> like dew from the LORD,<br /> like showers on the grass,<br /> which do not wait for man<br /> or linger for mankind.<br /><br /> 8 The remnant of Jacob will be among the nations,<br /> in the midst of many peoples,<br /> like a lion among the beasts of the forest,<br /> like a young lion among flocks of sheep,<br /> which mauls and mangles as it goes,<br /> and no one can rescue.<br /><br /> 9 Your hand will be lifted up in triumph over your enemies,<br /> and all your foes will be destroyed.<br /><br /> 10 "In that day," declares the LORD,<br /> "I will destroy your horses from among you<br /> and demolish your chariots.<br /><br /> 11 I will destroy the cities of your land<br /> and tear down all your strongholds.<br /><br /> 12 I will destroy your witchcraft<br /> and you will no longer cast spells.<br /><br /> 13 I will destroy your carved images<br /> and your sacred stones from among you;<br /> you will no longer bow down<br /> to the work of your hands.<br /><br /> 14 I will uproot from among you your Asherah poles [g]<br /> and demolish your cities.<br /><br /> 15 I will take vengeance in anger and wrath<br /> upon the nations that have not obeyed me."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-55300164469611774832010-10-13T02:06:57.137-04:002010-10-13T02:06:57.137-04:00Here's a brief account of elements in Isaiah 5...Here's a brief account of elements in Isaiah 52-53 that fit or do not fit Jesus. <br /><br />Fit: <br /><br />(1) The context (52:7) is "good news" announcing peace. <br /><br />(2) This is a universal peace, "the Lord has bared his holy arm in the sight of all the nations, that all the ends of the earth may see the salvation of our God." (52:10)<br /><br />(3) The servant will be "greatly exalted." (52:13)<br /><br />(4) Paradoxically, his appearance wil also be "marred more than any man." (52:14) (One should take this as OT hyperbole, meaning, "really messed up.") <br /><br />(5) He will "sprinkle many nations," referring to some sort of redemptive activity, like substitutionary sacrifice in which blood was sprinkled on the tribes. (52:15) <br /><br />(6) Because of the servant, "kings" will learn something they didn't know before, presumably about the work of God. (52:15) <br /><br />(7) The Servant was "despised and rejected," and "we" (presumably the Jewish people) did not esteem him. (53:3) <br /><br />(8) He would thought to be punished by God. (53:4)<br /><br />(9) But in reality he would bare "our" griefs and sorrows. (Note the parallelism, relevent to below.) This is the main theme of the passage, and is repeated many times, in striking rhetoric. Some overlap with (5). <br /><br />(10) He was "pierced" and "crushed for sin . . . some commentators say this implies a violent death. (53:5) "He was cut off from the land of the living." (53: 8) Makes it clear that the violence did in fact end in death. <br /><br />(11) He "did not open his mouth." (53:7) (Again, this is not a perfect parallel -- Jesus refused to answer at one stage of his trial, but later talked to Pilate.) <br /><br />(12) "He had done no violence, nor was their any deceit in his mouth." (53:9) Both literally and in an expanded, figurative sense, true of Jesus. Aside from chasing money-changers from the temple, Jesus refused to take up arms -- unlike most OT heroes. He was truthful. He was also "innocent" and "holy" in a deeper sense. <br /><br />(13) The pair "His grave was assigned with wicked men, yet he was with a rich man in his death" may count either way. Isaiah is using a lot of parallelism, and it is probably fair to take this enigmatic pair in the same way -- his death involved both a rich man and wicked men. Some commentators put the two together -- a rich, wicked man. Of course the exact wording reverses the NT description. Which makes one wonder: if the Gospel writers were making up facts to force parallels, why didn't they make Joseph a rich sinner? Anyway, a strong but imperfect parallel. <br /><br />(14) "He will see the light of life." (Dead Sea Scrolls.) Clearly suggests resurrection after death. <br /><br />Does not quite fit: <br /><br />(1) Rich man, sinner, see above. <br /><br />(2) Booty with the strong? (53:12) Sounds like a tribal warlord after a battle. Probably just a poetic way of saying, "He will be richly rewarded for his suffering." As the NT says, "For the joy that was set before him, he endured the cross." <br /><br />All in all, the parallels are deep, unique, and astounding. The differences are trivial and poetic. Again, I challenge anyone to find someone whom this passage describes better than Jesus. Israel obviously won't do, nor will Jeremiah.David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-86976712133691031622010-10-13T00:56:36.675-04:002010-10-13T00:56:36.675-04:00Rob, what more need I say?
I looked over this thr...<em>Rob, what more need I say?</em><br /><br />I looked over this thread again, there's points both of you didn't address as far as I can tell. I'm really not concerned about psalms, and David Marshall seemed to just reference Wolterstorff in favor of that without going into much detail. As for Isaiah 53, he didn't address the issue with descendents.<br /><br />Now you've mentioned that Israel is named as the subject several times, but As David pointed out, it's reasonable that the servant could be a specific individual is a representative of Israel, and so Jesus fits that mold. That's a very common in scripture so I don't see why not.<br /><br />As for the rebuttal that the inconsistencies with israel are chalked up to the claim that the Bible is inconsistant instead of allowing us to draw the conclusion that Jesus fits it better, this does strike me as conceptual insulation.<br /><br />And that is an overly short overview of the discussion, but it's all I have time for.Rob Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08937716910001145836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-43596128840207026822010-10-12T20:01:25.696-04:002010-10-12T20:01:25.696-04:00John: I think I'll start a "Where's W...John: I think I'll start a "Where's Wally?" contest for atheists, based on this thread. I'll ask a fair-minded atheist to act as ref, and challenge your fellow atheists to find the devastating argument you made in this thread that justifies all the trash talk you've sent my way. I'll give out prizes, for anyone who can find that argument. <br /><br />I don't take the trash talk personally, though. I knew before coming here that that's the way you and your friends -- Carrier, Avalos, Physicist Dave, Arizona Atheist -- operate. It's what I expected from you. I also thought you just might try answering my points; but I wasn't holding my breath.David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-6533414706630068142010-10-12T19:51:20.322-04:002010-10-12T19:51:20.322-04:00Rob: John seems to have forgotten that this thread...Rob: John seems to have forgotten that this thread is all in response to a challenge he issued. Perhaps if he doesn't have time to defend his arguments, he should make fewer of them, and follow through on those he makes.<br /><br />This thread is not exactly the top of my priority list, either; but the subject interests me, and I'll follow through on it.David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-34441480111545087952010-10-12T12:37:11.136-04:002010-10-12T12:37:11.136-04:00Rob, what more need I say?
Really? What is there ...Rob, what more need I say?<br /><br />Really? What is there about my response that I left out and needs further explanation?<br /><br />And where did David say anything about the Psalms as prophecy? They are clearly not prophetic! So rather than say anything about that all I got was silence.<br /><br />Silence. Crickets chirping.<br /><br />Oh but wait, here comes David now, and without even attempting to answer why anyone who is not already a believer should think Isaiah 52-53 is about Jesus maybe he'll proof text and proclaim victory again.<br /><br />This is not the kind of person that can be reached by reason and evidence.<br /><br />Imagine this scenario: David is evangelizing and the potential convert asks me what I think. I share it. On this issue is there any doubt but that the potential convert will not be persuaded by David?<br /><br />That's the point. That's why we need an Outsider Test.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-20688858288770771162010-10-12T12:20:11.502-04:002010-10-12T12:20:11.502-04:00"Never one to concede defeat even when all th...<em>"Never one to concede defeat even when all the evidence is against him, Marshall appears to be eager to be made a fool of again...[and again, and again].</em><br /><br />This is a complaint that always cuts both ways since it's not always clear that the one making it has conceeded anything.<br /><br />And what does it matter anyways? The question is not whether one has made any concessions but whether it was worth making any at all to begin with.Rob Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08937716910001145836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-79230843639320254332010-10-12T12:16:33.187-04:002010-10-12T12:16:33.187-04:00Why should I have to make that case here?
No need...<em>Why should I have to make that case here?</em><br /><br />No need to write a whole book here or even a chapter. But don't let the pendulum swing the other way. Just because cases have been made doesn't mean that they can't be discussed by others. And what does it matter what they argue if no one will disseminate the information because it's all been done.<br /><br />The masses or even the minorities who read this blog simply don't have the time funds or accessibility to go out and consult every resource on every topic.Rob Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08937716910001145836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-90470657916409224582010-10-11T23:20:23.217-04:002010-10-11T23:20:23.217-04:00By the way, your claim that I "will not conce...By the way, your claim that I "will not concede even the smallest detail" is also nakedly and plainly false. <br /><br />In one of my last posts, for instance, I conceded that on the face of it, 49:3 seems to support your reading of the Servant Songs.<br /><br />I also conceded that some passages in Isaiah 52-3 do not easily fit my model. <br /><br />You seem to be projecting your own unwillingness to see or admit the gaping holes in your argument.David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-70090925220834678482010-10-11T19:43:47.450-04:002010-10-11T19:43:47.450-04:00John: Heh. (A) I pointed out three fatal exegetica...John: Heh. (A) I pointed out three fatal exegetical flaws in your interpretation of Isaiah 52-3. <br /><br />(B) I then showed that the way you presented the state of the scholarly argument is phoney. Most scholars do NOT seem to agree with your interpretation of Isaiah 52-3. At least, I offered a larger sample than you did, NONE of whom agreed with you. <br /><br />(C) I also showed that in context, your main defeater, 49:3, cannot refer to Israel -- as even many non-Christian scholars seem to recognize for the passage as a whole. <br /><br />You respond by pretending (against B) that scholars are really all on your side, and by citing -- get this -- Arizona Atheist? (aka "Gifted Writer" aka "Angry Atheist" aka Ken?) A guy who, when confronted (not just by me) with the absurdity of his arguments, those he is willing to show, that is, laspses into fantasies about the death of his opponent, pornographical posts, and obscurity of the kind we all know and love -- I'm right because no one is going to follow me to THIS web site and prove me wrong?<br /><br />Brilliant, John. I wasn't honestly expecting a great argument from you, but your response still kind of surprises me.David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-69807031293414384192010-10-11T18:43:06.833-04:002010-10-11T18:43:06.833-04:00David Marshall, I agree with Arizona Atheist who w...David Marshall, I agree with <a href="http://arizonaatheist.blogspot.com/2010/07/david-marshall-gets-his-ass-kickedagain.html" rel="nofollow">Arizona Atheist</a> who wrote about you saying, "Never one to concede defeat even when all the evidence is against him, Marshall appears to be eager to be made a fool of again...[and again, and again].<br /><br />Authorities? What are they? Who are they? Who knows? Who cares? I did not use them as authorities but scholars in their own right who make the case for me. Why should I have to make that case here? Is it people cannot do the requisite amount of research...that I must spend an hour typing in their arguments here? Bullshit. I already di so anyway.<br /><br />Here's the problem. If the evidence does not convince Jews nor at least some Christians, then would you be so kind O wise one to tell me why the evidence should convince non-believers,including Buddhists, Hindu's? <br /><br />Since I agree with Arizona Atheist about you and since I have already spent more time on you than you deserve, and since I have more productive things to do than argue with a person like you who will never concede even the smallest of detail, I'm not bothering.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-3403015967176151592010-10-09T22:01:23.877-04:002010-10-09T22:01:23.877-04:00John cites two authorities in the attempt to suppo...John cites two authorities in the attempt to support his claim that Isaiah 52-3 refers to Israel, not to Jesus. He also tells me to "listen to scholars on your side of the fence," and warns that when I do, my faith will eventually be "crushed." <br /><br />The odd thing about his two appeals to authority, is that one of his sources doesn't seem to support him! Nothing he quotes from Joseph Fitzmyer actually says either than this passage refers to Israel, or that it is not in some sense a prophecy about Jesus. He appears instead to be making a technical point about whether it speaks of the "Messiah." <br /><br />John's second source is the Anchor Bible Dictionary, scholar unspecified, and what looks like a pretty loose comment. <br /><br />I've gone through this argument before, with a philosophy prof from the Midwest, so I had a pretty good idea what commentators say about this passage. But to refresh my memory, I followed John's advice, and looked through commentaries on Isaiah in the main library at a major West coast university. <br /><br />In the time I had available, I dug out opinions on this issue from eight commentaries: four Medeival Jews, one modern liberal or skeptic, two evangelicals, and one probable Christian. (Publishers: Peter Lang, Cambridge U, New Century, IVP, Moody)<br /><br />Of those eight scholars, not a single one agree with the Loftus-Anchor interpretation. <br /><br />The most skeptical was by RN Whybray, who seemed offended by the idea the Suffering Servant was Jesus, and argued the author was writing about himself. He argued in his commentary on earlier passages already "that the servant . . . cannot be Israel." <br /><br />The Medieval Jews were quite conflicted over how to interpret the passage. One, Saadia, said it was Jeremiah, or perhaps the prophets collectively, or perhaps Abraham. It was all rather vague. A Jew belonging to another school dismissed that view with contempt, but with no real argument. Obviously Jeremiah doesn't fit, though. A couple Jewish scholars of another school therefore claimed the Servant will come in the future -- obviously very much connecting him to the Messiah -- but simply flipping the stuff about sacrificial atonement on its head, and having the Messiah kill rich criminals. <br /><br />This also is interesting because it treats "the rich" and "criminals" as parallelism, as I noted above. <br /><br />The two evangelicals see Jesus writ large not only in 52-53, but in that whole section of Isaiah. I didn't have time to read too much, but they seem to give excellent reasons. Their books are called "Songs of Servant" (Henri Blocher) and "The Servant Songs: A Study in Isaiah;" will have to read more later. <br /><br />So thanks, John, for the stimulating challenges. <br /><br />These passages amaze me every time I read them, and fair reading of the scholarship doesn't seem to lessen the effect one whit. Certainly scholarship seems, so far, to help the "Jesus hypothesis" more than the "Israel hypothesis."David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-49387097137962334682010-10-09T21:28:44.782-04:002010-10-09T21:28:44.782-04:00Let's consider further John's claim that t...Let's consider further John's claim that the Suffering Servant in Isaiah 52-3 is Israel. <br /><br />John offered two arguments for this view: the context of the Suffering Servant passages, from which he cited Isaiah 49, and an argument from the authority of OT scholars. <br /><br />(1) Isaiah 49:3 does, at first glance, seem to affirm John's interpretation:<br /><br />"He said to me, 'You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified." <br /><br />Seems pretty straightforward, right? Read on, and not so:<br /><br />"5. But now the Lord, who formed me from my birth to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to Him and that Israel might be gathered for Him . . . He says, 'It is too light a thing that you should be My servant, to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved of Israel; I will make you a light to the nations that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth."<br /><br />If this servant IS Israel, how can the servant be called to "raise up" and "preserve" the people of Judah and Israel? (And then the world?) <br /><br />One can suppose, as Loftus suggests, that the poet is simply clumsy, and can't help contradicting himself. But the most obvious thing about this poet is that he is a genius. This is some of the most magnificant poetry in all literature. It's not likely he just can't keep his story straight. What is far more likely that just as the name "Israel" was a person given to a nation, here again it refers to some representative Person. <br /><br />In any case, "Israel" doesn't fit, both for reasons already given, and for reasons I'll mention below. <br /><br />I'll deal with John's other argument, his argument from authority, in the next post.David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-41560150196699045902010-10-09T12:50:26.599-04:002010-10-09T12:50:26.599-04:00I have a simpler rejoinder to all this talk of &qu...I have a simpler rejoinder to all this talk of "priors" and "Bayesian" so-called philosophy:<br /><br />Bayes' Theorem is a mathematical relation between the probability of two events. <br /><br />This means that before you can even use the name "Bayes", YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO QUANTIFY PROBABILITIES. You can't say: Well, I feel that the probability of X is 0.5, so it's truthy that Y, if X has happened, should be something like 0.9. You SIMPLY DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO USE BAYES THEOREM THAT WAY.<br /><br />So: Where are your numbers? What field studies did you do to arrive at them? What was your study's methodology? How did you assess statistical significance? <br /><br />Simply stated, it's pseudo-science of the first order, using sciency words to hide the fact that they don't know what the hell they are talking about.Rebel1https://www.blogger.com/profile/05879656124196531337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-65053524317000356302010-10-08T11:10:07.042-04:002010-10-08T11:10:07.042-04:00"You are too far gone to see the nose on your..."You are too far gone to see the nose on your face . . . you are brainwashed. I am smart enough to see the signs of it . . . It's a waste of time trying with some people. You are one such person . . . like the emperor who had no clothes on . . . You're naked as a jaybird."<br /><br />ROFL! That's why we keep you on the payroll, John. <br /><br />Little secret: I answer posts sequentially. I hadn't gotten to the post where you finally tried to offer a little evidence, still less could I be deluding myself by pretending to ignore the supposed cogency and overwhelming intellectual force of that evidence. <br /><br />Nice try, though. Just out of curiosity: when you do debates, do you all your arguments in your closing statement?David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-42004245277288275502010-10-08T10:59:35.586-04:002010-10-08T10:59:35.586-04:00OK, John is finally trying to support his argument...OK, John is finally trying to support his argument, at least to Rob. <br /><br />"Rob, the text says in three specific places that the servant is Israel."<br /><br />Where does it say that in Isaiah 52-53? <br /><br />"If that doesn't convince a "religious scholar" like David then nothing will. Why? Because the NT writers say differently, that's why."<br /><br />I have said nothing at all about NT interpretations. I've said repeatedly that it's Isaiah 53 itself that strikes me as being obviously about Jesus. <br /><br />"So it surprises you that the Bible is inconsistent?"<br /><br />But the issue here is whether Isaiah 52-3 is more consistent with (a) the "Israel" interpretation or (b) the "Jesus" interpretation. You can't throw out evidence that undermines your model because you argue, post hoc, that the whole Bible is inconsistent. <br /><br />"In any case, it also says he did not "open his mouth" but was "silent" and talks of "his descendants" and "offspring" and that he went to "the grave" of the wicked."<br /><br />Yes, and the Gospels say Jesus refused to answer his critics. His initial refusal to answer charges "amazed" Pilate (Mt. 27:12-15; Mk. 15:3-5).<br /><br />It's true Isaiah is writing poetically, and a couple details do not precisely match the Gospel story. My claim was that it fits Jesus better than anyone else, not that the fit is perfect. <br /><br />Of course one favored poetic device in the OT is parallelism, which may make the "grave with the wicked, death with the rich" reversal more apparent than real. But I concede it's not a perfect fit. <br /><br />As resurrection, see Resurrection of the Son of God, especially the 3rd paragraph on 117, speaking of Isaiah 26. "The original Hebrew refers literally to bodily resurrection, and this is certainly how the verse is taken in the LXX and at Qumram." <br /><br />In any case, of course by hypothesis, a prophet can transcend what his culture knows. <br /><br />"The story of the crucifixion of Jesus was tailor made to fit the details of this prophecy not the other way around, anyway. THAT'S why is has the ring of truth to it."<br /><br />Heh. That's the inevitable fallback position. I don't think it's very plausible, but it implicitly admits my original point, which is good enough for now.David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-69698324737352848762010-10-08T10:47:36.651-04:002010-10-08T10:47:36.651-04:00In other words David, you are brainwashed. I am sm...In other words David, you are brainwashed. I am smart enough to see the signs of it. It's written all over your face. I cannot reach you. So I'm not gonna try. It's a waste of time trying with some people. You are one such person. Wave your hand around all you want to. Claim victory. But you're losing the argument in front of fair-minded people. It's like the emperor who had no clothes on. You think you're dressed. You think you win debates and arguments. You boast about them. And you'll do so here as well.<br /><br />Only you think so. You're naked as a jaybird.<br /><br />So please, link here all you want to. Tell everyone to come read this. Please. It won't do your cause any good.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-72485382336771758162010-10-08T10:43:43.970-04:002010-10-08T10:43:43.970-04:00I did David. If you cannot see that I did then the...I did David. If you cannot see that I did then there is no way in hell you will see my points. <br /><br />I was responding to Rob anyway since you are too far gone to see the nose on your face. I could point it out, take a picture of it, have you touch it, and you would still deny it exists even though you still use it to breathe. <br /><br />Rob, however, even though we disagree is at least trying to be fair-minded about what is to be seen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-58406258619895142922010-10-08T10:25:03.590-04:002010-10-08T10:25:03.590-04:00John: You've hardly answered an argument I'...John: You've hardly answered an argument I've made in this thread. Telling me to read commentaries, when I've already read them, and found something different than you, rather than respond to the actual evidence in the actual text that undermines your interpretation, is not an answer. Scoffing at my intelligence, open-mindedness, or education, is not an answer. <br /><br />I know this is largely what you do, and everyone has to have their gig. But that sort of response is like a hothouse flower: it may resonate with skeptics who flourish in a protected environment, but doesn't look healthy out in the cold, cruel world. <br /><br />Get back to me when you want to respond to the textual evidence.David B Marshallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04029133398946303654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-45453330139388989032010-10-08T08:50:08.217-04:002010-10-08T08:50:08.217-04:00Rob, the text says in three specific places that t...Rob, the text says in three specific places that the servant is Israel. If that doesn't convince a "religious scholar" like David then nothing will. Why? Because the NT writers say differently, that's why.<br /><br />What else is there to say here?<br /><br /><i>But the Servant in this passage is "without deceit," and had "done no violence." That is the opposite of what the OT consistently says about Israel.</i><br /><br />So it surprises you that the Bible is inconsistent? Is such a thing a revelation you had never considered before? <br /><br />And have you ever read some free verse poetry or listened to a pop song in today's world to make sense of every phrase in it? Sometimes it cannot be done.<br /><br />In any case, it also says he did not "open his mouth" but was "silent" and talks of "his descendants" and "offspring" and that he went to "the grave" of the wicked.<br /><br />Figurative or literal, eh? And why? Jesus was emphatically NOT silent at his trials.<br /><br />Given the fact that the Israelites did not accept a general resurrection from the dead this could not refer to an individual. It was speaking metaphorically about a nation who had become a scapegoat, or a lesson to the other nations not to sin against Yahweh (and here we must consider the fact that the Babylonians were the scum of the earth compared to the Israelites such that compared to them the Jews were still a righteous chosen nation in the author's eyes). Surely the concept of a scapegoat was nothing new to you or to them. Only instead of a goat on the Day or Atonement is was the nation of Israel itself. <br /><br />The text doesn't make complete sense but one thing I know is that it was about Israel. <br /><br />The story of the crucifixion of Jesus was tailor made to fit the details of this prophecy not the other way around, anyway. THAT'S why is has the ring of truth to it. It's called prophecy historicized, and we see plenty evidence of this in the NT itself, especially from Matthew's gospel. Check out the story of Zechariah's prophecy about the Triumphant entry into Jerusalem by Jesus which is clearly a story made up given the way the four gospels treat it. <br /><br />Cheers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com