tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post3638910734310808964..comments2024-03-25T17:35:02.238-04:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: Putting Faith in its PlaceUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger89125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-67419614583840873862009-10-01T16:14:16.459-04:002009-10-01T16:14:16.459-04:00One could give Christianity a true benefit of the ...One could give Christianity a true benefit of the doubt if it had developed across the globe and at the same time. In fact it probable would be very hard to disprove it wrong on the basis that everyone received the same message at the same time. <br /><br />The problem Christianity didn't start off that way. It at first having its leader killed with without any plans for succession. It had the benefit of a public who believed the Gods could have earthly children. The idea of people rising from the dead wasn't unheard of. It also had a network of finely built roads and access to ships cross the Mediterranean ocean courtesy of the Roman empire. The Christians also had access to a group of Greeks spread out across the empire that embraced the faith. The biggest gift of all was the Roman Emperor Constantine who proclaim Christianity as the state religion. <br /><br />But cutting to present time it seems odd that God would go through all the trouble to develop Judaism then sacrifice his supposed son only later to have the faith split due to internal strife and conflict. God intended for the reformation? God planned to have Catholics then Protestants, then Mormons? This process of Christianity seems more of an example of evolution that creationism. <br /><br />In the end the reason the Christian today can be so bold in their complaints of other traditions isn't based on whose religion is Gods religion, but who developed the gun first and ships to travel the ocean upon.<br /><br />Peace.Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00715319397553428894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-78666303665205244782009-09-28T05:22:03.831-04:002009-09-28T05:22:03.831-04:00As I said before, "I personally can't a) ...As I said before, "I personally can't a) convict your heart of sin, b) show you your need for salvation, c) describe to you what the Holy Spirit is like b/c that's like trying to tell someone what a soft drink tastes like when they've never had one..."<br /><br />Good day, gentleman.kjoknoswazzuphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06221227378299302056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-55495405500101655612009-09-26T03:40:30.662-04:002009-09-26T03:40:30.662-04:00Hi K,
here is a video of a guy that tells you how ...Hi K,<br />here is a video of a guy that tells you how to get in touch with your spirit guides, angels and loved ones.<br />The first thing he says is meditate. <br />He says by doing this we can focus our third eye shakra to receive spiritual information. You get feelings, smells, images, and you can "autowrite" down the information.<br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vknwWoLSvDs" rel="nofollow">Connecting to Your Spirit Guides, Angels and Loved Ones</a><br />If that aint experience, I don't know what is!<br />;-)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-24083699202831849782009-09-26T03:30:38.177-04:002009-09-26T03:30:38.177-04:00Hi K,
about your experience with "the holy sp...Hi K,<br />about your experience with "the holy spirit"<br />Hindus do yoga for that<br /><a href="http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/yogaindex.asp" rel="nofollow">hinduwebsite.com</a><br /><i>The term Yoga comes from the root yuj, "to yoke or join." It is used to suggest the union of the individual self (atman) with the Highest Self (Brahman)."</i><br /><br />Whatever you say about how you know Christianity and its god or principles are true, can be said about any other religion with passion. Just ask them. <br /><br />The common denominator is passionate people. Passionate people can convince themselves of a lot of things, from religion to UFO's.<br /><br />oh and yoga can be used as a physical fitness "exercise" apart from the spirituality. Its not exclusively for trying to join the Brahman.<br /><br />If you all are having "experiences" then maybe its god, maybe its not. Maybe its just you all getting yourselves all worked up, maybe its another god trying to get past your christian bias, and maybe its a demon trying to win your trust.<br /><br />My moneys on the guess thats its simply you all getting yourselves all worked up.<br /><br />If I have a Christian, a hindu, a muslim, a Jew and a buddhist all telling me about their personal experience that I can't verify, then who am I supposed to believe?<br /><br />If I pray about it, if I pray using a certain religions method, then I've made a choice! And If praying like a muslim gets me off, then that doesn't discredit your experience in your eyes because you are convinced I am self-deluded.<br /><br />Dude, you're in a logic loop with your experience and the only way to get out of it is with physical evidence that is stronger than the rest.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-12218288763766600992009-09-25T18:39:21.736-04:002009-09-25T18:39:21.736-04:00K,
I've heard it all before and don't dou...K,<br /><br />I've heard it all before and don't doubt your sincerity but, when I look at the actions taken by true believers in our country and see the affront to equality and liberty the "Holy Spirit" offers I gratefully decline your "VIP" pass.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15657598456196932490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-12408757658878231412009-09-25T17:54:36.565-04:002009-09-25T17:54:36.565-04:00I meant, Moroni the Mormon. Sorry, I'm used to...I meant, Moroni the Mormon. Sorry, I'm used to discussing one more than the other.kjoknoswazzuphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06221227378299302056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-64876701554959618012009-09-25T17:52:44.567-04:002009-09-25T17:52:44.567-04:00"One could say the same thing about Mormonism..."One could say the same thing about Mormonism and cite historically verifiable examples of the types of evidence you offer but, I doubt you believe in an angel named Moroni."<br /><br />You're right Chuck. And again, I'm sorry, because these comments are not being written in such a way that I'm trying to convince you to follow the path I've chosen. Which I of course want you to, because obviously when I say I am a Christian, I am saying that Jesus Christ is the only means of Salvation, thus, Jesus holds your eternal VIP pass in his pocket. <br /><br />The missing link in these discussions, is the Holy Spirit. This is the part of the conversation where most Christians trail off into the holy sea and drown, and it's really noticeable and for me, a little painful to watch. But I personally can't a) convict your heart of sin, b) show you your need for salvation, c) describe to you what the Holy Spirit is like b/c that's like trying to tell someone what a soft drink tastes like when they've never had one...see where I'm going with this? <br /><br />Faith is not blind. It's merely making the choice to step forward, and trust that what G-d (Yahweh not Allah) says in Scripture is true. This is when things happen. After you walk through the door. But that doesn't happen on sites like this. Everyone gets together and stares at the door. They yell at it, bang it, laugh at it, mock it, etc. <br /><br />And you're right, I don't believe in Moroni the Muslim.kjoknoswazzuphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06221227378299302056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-87263025221082288212009-09-25T17:35:28.160-04:002009-09-25T17:35:28.160-04:00Lee, I appreciate what you're saying and I can...Lee, I appreciate what you're saying and I can see your points. I will also think about those points now and consider them. But I've experienced the Holy Spirit in big, medium and small ways, and each time, the experience has validated for me what is written in Judeo-Christian Scripture. Each time, my faith level goes up a notch. I don't know how else to explain it. I realize there are a lot of emotionally unstable, simpletons in the world, but I don't see how there can be millions of people, around the world, having the same type of experience, if Judeo-Christian Scripture was full of crap. And to me, mythology contains a lot of crap, because what can you do with information when it's not true? You certainly can't develop an accurate worldview let alone build a life on it. If Christianity was full of crap, I can say with 95% confidence, that I wouldn't be 16 years into my relationship with Jesus Christ. But I know, who am I to you? Probably just another Christian typing about Jesus in cyberspace...kjoknoswazzuphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06221227378299302056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-91470620254982058432009-09-25T13:36:09.167-04:002009-09-25T13:36:09.167-04:00K you said,
"Christianity is not a folklore....K you said,<br /><br />"Christianity is not a folklore. There is real meat to it in the form of history, archaeological evidence, and the testimony of multiple people, all of whom were willing to die for their faith (and by that I don't mean blowing themselves up)."<br /><br />One could say the same thing about Mormonism and cite historically verifiable examples of the types of evidence you offer but, I doubt you believe in an angel named Moroni.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15657598456196932490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-16275127476407271122009-09-25T13:30:25.962-04:002009-09-25T13:30:25.962-04:00and while I'm hooting and hollerin about folkl...and while I'm hooting and hollerin about folklore, I will concede that Jesus was a real person and crucified, and that in order to reconcile that catastrophe, they borrowed ready made folklore stories to explain it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-59254587649078000872009-09-25T09:37:09.251-04:002009-09-25T09:37:09.251-04:00Hi K,
We all search for God and we always will. If...Hi K,<br /><b><i>We all search for God and we always will. If you cut us open, we all look the same. Thus, their is only one God, his name is Yahweh, who manifested himself in Jesus Christ (Yeshua).</i></b><br /><br />no, its Vishnu. <br />Yahweh was mistaken for Indra way back then. If there are any gods, the Hindu pantheon are the only real gods. They were first, the rest are just misunderstandings of them spread by well meaning but misguided false prophets.<br /><br />;-)<br /><br />Look, why do you believe the Jewish story and then the Christian story over the Hindu story? <br /><br />Its because everyone you know has been christian, plain and simple.<br /><br />Check this out, the Hindu sanyas ashrama is the final stage in hindu life where they renounce everything and give themselves to the pursuit "right living".<br /><br />compare the following to John the Baptist, Jesus in Mark when his family was holding him back because he was acting crazy, and the apostles <br /><br />Think about all the mention of the Magi and the Persians in the Bible. East Asian influence is all over the Bible. <br /><br />I tell ya, your are falling for millenia old Near Eastern folklore. Go check out what "the Axial Age" entailed (800-200 BCE). Thats the time the major religions defined themselves.<br /><br />from <a href="http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/concepts/ashramas.asp" rel="nofollow">www.hinduwebsite.com</a><br />Sanyasa ashrama<br /><i>9. Let him wear a single garment, <br /><br />10. Or cover his body with a skin or with grass that has been nibbled at by a cow.<br /><br />11. Let him sleep on the bare ground.<br /><br />12. Let him frequently change his residence, <br /><br />13. (Dwelling) at the extremity of the village, in a temple, or in an empty house, or at the root of a tree.<br /><br />14. Let him (constantly) seek in his heart the knowledge (of the universal soul).<br /><br />15. (An ascetic) who lives constantly in the forest,<br /><br />16. Shall not wander about within sight of the village-cattle.<br /><br />17. 'Freedom from future births is certain for him who constantly dwells in the forest, who has subdued his organs of sensation and action, who has renounced all sensual gratification, whose mind is fixed in meditation on the Supreme Spirit, and who is (wholly) indifferent (to pleasure and pain).'<br /><br />18. (Let him) not (wear) any visible mark (of his order), nor (follow) any visible rule of conduct.<br /><br />19. Let him, though not mad, appear like one out of his mind.</i>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-30210752011448414762009-09-25T03:33:58.594-04:002009-09-25T03:33:58.594-04:00Hi Lee. Thanks. I admit my reply was a bit lazy so...Hi Lee. Thanks. I admit my reply was a bit lazy so I appreciate that you were kind to me and not mean. I could have written what I wrote more kindly. <br /><br />As for mythology, my theory is that it's anything but myth. It was real people, like you and me, on their own personal existential journey. We all search for God and we always will. If you cut us open, we all look the same. Thus, their is only one God, his name is Yahweh, who manifested himself in Jesus Christ (Yeshua). <br /><br />Christianity is not a folklore. There is real meat to it in the form of history, archaeological evidence, and the testimony of multiple people, all of whom were willing to die for their faith (and by that I don't mean blowing themselves up). <br /><br />Finally, the Jewish people protected their scripture with their whole being, thus, their documents are trustworthy. Also, the English translations can always be dug deeper into using the Greek and Hebrew language.kjoknoswazzuphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06221227378299302056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-86750558008289761852009-09-25T03:17:01.071-04:002009-09-25T03:17:01.071-04:00Hi K,
"Linguistics - look it up, learn about ...Hi K,<br />"Linguistics - look it up, learn about it, realize that everything begins here. Take some time to wrap your brain around what I'm getting at. God speaking the world into existence via a big bang - makes sense. "<br /><br />Vedic hindus from 3000 BCE to about 300 CE would agree with you. They believed that their scriptures words and language had special powers and could only be spoken by the priest class or it was dangerous. Some "denominations" of Hindus think that the world came into existence with the word AUM which stands for "Three Vedas or the Hindu Trimurti or three stages in life ( birth, life and death )." (wikipedia)<br /><br />So your christian idea of speaking the world into existence was borrowed from the surrounding Near East Environment by the writer of Genesis.<br /><br />It was a common type of folklore that can be found in other cultures besides Judaism.<br /><br />And this illustrates the problem with Second Hand Information. You don't know if its correct or if its accurate because you don't have first hand information, or experience.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-91238809772924314632009-09-24T20:31:39.397-04:002009-09-24T20:31:39.397-04:00"Intellectual knowledge" is just a piece..."Intellectual knowledge" is just a piece of the pie, my friends. So anyone who is going to claim via an "intellectual argument" that there is no God or that there is no truth out there, based on "Intellectual knowledge" and "scientific proof," is like a fly stuck in the middle of an orange flavored jello mold claiming "to know" everything that exists beyond the jello mold. And this includes claiming "to know" that there is no God. <br /><br />Sure, I could argue that perhaps you're right if you define "know" intellectually, but I can just as easily argue using intellectual evidence that there is a God, but that's a different post. <br /><br />BUT you're NOT right b/c you don't really understand the depth and thus the true meaning of the word "know". <br /><br />In Hebrew, "know" is "to know," which incorporates visible evidence as well as intuition, knowledge that mathematics even has a definition for. i.e. "I just know...I can feel it...I therefore trust (have faith) it's true" and then the person's mirrored experience turns out to prove the validity of this feeling in the form of true (accurate) knowledge.<br /><br />Linguistics - look it up, learn about it, realize that everything begins here. Take some time to wrap your brain around what I'm getting at. God speaking the world into existence via a big bang - makes sense. Jesus Christ being "The Word who became flesh to dwell with us" makes sense too. <br /><br />Secular wisdom or secular foolishness? Who is really stuck in the orange flavored jello mold?<br /><br />Definitions of 'know' <br /><br />1. (verb) know<br />the fact of being aware of information that is known to few people<br />"he is always in the know"<br /><br />2. (verb) know, cognize, cognise<br />be cognizant or aware of a fact or a specific piece of information; possess knowledge or information about<br />"I know that the President lied to the people"; "I want to know who is winning the game!"; "I know it's time"<br /><br />3. (verb) know<br />know how to do or perform something<br />"She knows how to knit"; "Does your husband know how to cook?"<br /><br />4. (verb) know<br />be aware of the truth of something; have a belief or faith in something; regard as true beyond any doubt<br />"I know that I left the key on the table"; "Galileo knew that the earth moves around the sun"<br /><br />5. (verb) know<br />be familiar or acquainted with a person or an object<br />"She doesn't know this composer"; "Do you know my sister?"; "We know this movie"; "I know him under a different name"; "This flower is known as a Peruvian Lily"<br /><br />6. (verb) know, experience, live<br />have firsthand knowledge of states, situations, emotions, or sensations<br />"I know the feeling!"; "have you ever known hunger?"; "I have lived a kind of hell when I was a drug addict"; "The holocaust survivors have lived a nightmare"; "I lived through two divorces"<br /><br />7. (verb) acknowledge, recognize, recognise, know<br />accept (someone) to be what is claimed or accept his power and authority<br />"The Crown Prince was acknowledged as the true heir to the throne"; "We do not recognize your gods"<br /><br />8. (verb) know<br />have fixed in the mind<br />"I know Latin"; "This student knows her irregular verbs"; "Do you know the poem well enough to recite it?"<br /><br />9. (verb) sleep together, roll in the hay, love, make out, make love, sleep with, get laid, have sex, know, do it, be intimate, have intercourse, lie with, bed, have a go at it, bang, get it on, bonk<br />have sexual intercourse with<br /><br />"This student sleeps with everyone in her dorm"; "Adam knew Eve"; "Were you ever intimate with this man?"<br /><br />10. (verb) know<br />know the nature or character of<br />"we all knew her as a big show-off"<br /><br />11. (verb) know<br />be able to distinguish, recognize as being different<br />"The child knows right from wrong"<br /><br />12. (verb) know<br />perceive as familiar<br />"I know this voice!"kjoknoswazzuphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06221227378299302056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-67055566360440104542009-09-24T12:34:42.792-04:002009-09-24T12:34:42.792-04:00This reminds me of a recent analysis by Dawson Bet...This reminds me of a recent analysis by Dawson Bethrick of a debate involving a presuppositionalist Christian.<br /><br />The Christian claimed he had a guarantor for the foundations of logic and morality who does not lie.<br /><br />Upon cross-examination the Christian's opponent asked him how he knew God could not lie.<br /><br />The Christian's argument boiled down to, "God told him so."openlyatheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03799132607816184980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-48067163131719880292009-09-23T19:48:35.536-04:002009-09-23T19:48:35.536-04:00Eric,
I understand what you're saying, and fr...Eric,<br /><br />I understand what you're saying, and from your point of view it is rational just as I think your christian faith is, but then again, I think the Islamic faith is also rational. Possibility leads to any possible perception.<br /><br />These are the exact words from the author of the video: "Despite there being countless possibilities and impossibilities, without evidence from the box itself, we can only ever make valid justifiable statements about what is not inside the cube, not what is." Now, what I was simply trying to say and what I think the video is trying to say is that, if no one knows what's inside the box, then "without evidence from the box itself", there can be no valid reason for me to believe what anyone tells me since that person has never truly seen what's inside. If what I say is true, then the universal claim still stands. <br /><br />When you add that you can know if someone you can trust knows and tells you, that is another thing which I don't need to get into, and since others are already dealing with that.Ignerant Phoolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13166860576010836032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-34090575488052625562009-09-23T10:50:18.434-04:002009-09-23T10:50:18.434-04:00Eric,
another meandering thought regarding episte...Eric, <br />another meandering thought regarding epistemology. <br /><br />What is the scope of definition of Knowledge? Do I mean the same thing as you when we are talking about knowledge?<br /><br />What does Knowledge mean? When do you know something? What is the standard for when someone can be said to know something? Is it the same in all cultures? <br /><br />I suspect that the lack of a strong definition for knowledge is why epistemology is languishing in philosophy but is doing so well in the sciences, where quantification and measurement is all important. We have to make justifiable decisions don't we and how can we do that without knowledge? Information Science, Decision theory, Game Theory, Bayesian Epistemology, Social Psychology, they make heavy use of statistics and probability to make fairly reliable predictions and assessments of whether information is reliable or not. Whether decisions are justifiable or not. Assessments about the Quality of Knowledge. The world is just a complex tapestry of interwoven logical relationships where knowledge is just a context away from disappearing.<br /><br />Another cornerstone of epistemology, Belief, is in the same boat. Barely definable.<br /><br />But neuroscience is making advances defining belief. If belief is the point at which you will take some action with regard to knowledge, that action can be predicted using fmri to a large degree, and advances are being made using fmri for detecting lies, which is when you say something you don't believe.<br /><br />They're whittling away at the philosophy of free will as well discovering more and more biological bases for behavior.<br /><br />How do you define rational? Is what is rational to me, rational to you? (that's rhetorical, don't bother answering)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-27859731463274262472009-09-23T05:37:38.242-04:002009-09-23T05:37:38.242-04:00Eric, let's say someone claims there is a polt...Eric, let's say someone claims there is a poltergeist in his house. How would YOU test that claim?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-331658010851865222009-09-23T05:19:00.404-04:002009-09-23T05:19:00.404-04:00Whats in the box?
tee hee hee....
"Box Of R...Whats in the box? <br />tee hee hee....<br /><br /><a href="http://consumerist.com/5233499/box-of-rocks-scam-caught-on-walmart-security-camera" rel="nofollow">"Box Of Rocks" Scam Caught On Walmart Security Camera</a>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-18959886555032075622009-09-23T04:38:48.983-04:002009-09-23T04:38:48.983-04:00Hi Eric,
and about my love for epistemology,
I lov...Hi Eric,<br />and about my love for epistemology,<br />I love philosophy, but I recognize that sometimes it doesn't match reality.<br /><br />One thing philosophers seem to do is fall for the fallacy of the excluded middle. They don't seem to be happy with something that gets you there most of the way, they toss it out and start over.<br />That's dumb.<br /><br />You see it all the time when some idea gets revived cause somebody realized something that could be tacked onto it to make it more complete or fit more scenarios.<br /><br />As an engineer and a polymath, I learn what they say in the class room and then do the 'THEORY TO PRACTICE'. <br />What fits I keep, what doesn't I discard.<br /><br />I keep bayesian epistemology close to my heart even though pollock to my horror seems to have amply demonstrated its limitations, but hey<br />Newtons laws work well enough in a certain context, so do other things.<br /><br />I advise you to temper your theory with practice. It doesn't mean you hate philosophy, it means you love it enough to make it a lifestyle choice.<br /><br />Thats why you will see that when people try to label me as a "something-ist" I correct them and by telling them I'm an engineer. Engineers solve problems using whatever works, so if some part of subjectivism and some part of objectivism works to solve a problem, I'm using them both.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-2807016108965383552009-09-23T04:10:21.262-04:002009-09-23T04:10:21.262-04:00Hi Eric,
sorry I offended you.
as you go travelin...Hi Eric,<br />sorry I offended you.<br /><br />as you go traveling around the world as I hope you do one day, here is a word of warning. You better look in the box before you make your investment.<br /><br />You might decide that you want to get a good deal on an mp3 player lets say.<br />You go into the electronics store, (which is not anything like a "best buy" for example) and <br />- the salesperson shows you the mp3 player, <br />- you decide the deal is too good to pass up<br />- you decided to buy it<br />- and he reaches under the counter and gives you a shrink wrapped box.<br /><br />Whats in the box?<br />Your mp3 player?<br /><br />You get home or away from the store, open it only to find a box of rocks.<br /><br />So eric, its more complicated than you make it out to be. There is the concept of investment, and how do you know who you can trust.<br /><br />I've worked in a warehouse. Before I sign for accepting 10,000.00 worth of equipment, I'm going to look in the box, and compare it to the shipping document.<br /><br />in game theory this like a non-iterative version of the prisoners dilemma. Its in the salespersons best interest to defect. Its a game of imperfect information. He has all the information.<br /><br />of course, if you lived next door to him he wouldn't do it. He'd choose the equilibrium, or dominant strategy for an iterative game of perfect information.<br /><br />So yes, all "classical epistemological terminology" aside about what constitutes knowledge and belief, I don't know whats in the box until I look.<br /><br />and anyone that is willing to make that commitment and that investment on second hand information is welcome to do so, but don't ask me to do it.<br /><br />The problem of second hand information is not trivial and you would do well to figure out how to handle it in the future.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-54384694107823543542009-09-23T04:05:34.349-04:002009-09-23T04:05:34.349-04:00Eric, with regard to your comments to Lee go, I su...Eric, with regard to your comments to Lee go, I suppose Alvin Plantinga could make you look ignorant with regard to epistemology, correct?<br /><br />So please tell me if there is a correlation between how deeply one studies epistemology and how correct that person is about a truth claim? Given the fact that Plantinga and you are wrong I see no correlation at all. You start from what you were raised to believe, that's all. And you were raised to believe wrong, just like I was. So you defend what you were raised to believe, as I did. And it is very hard to argue you out of what you were raised to believe because you were never argued into it in the first place. <br /><br />Lee has had the fortitude to self-correct his beliefs in light of the arguments and the evidence, just as we all did with regard to Santa Claus and the tooth fairly (not completely analogous, I know). I appreciate you doing the same thing here, but sophisticated arguments on behald of your faith are just that sophisticated (Think Mormon and Muslim apologists). They still don't deal with the probabilities. They only reinforce prejudices by means of possibilites. <br /><br />Cheers.<br /><br />I know you've read my book. Think if you will how often you must argue that the basis of your faith is a possibility. Way too many times for you to continue believing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-58986805984201796982009-09-23T03:50:36.137-04:002009-09-23T03:50:36.137-04:00Eric, the only way to verify a truth claim about m...Eric, the only way to verify a truth claim about matters of fact (Hume's language) is to experience it through the five senses.<br /><br />All claims that there is a sixth sense (a religious sense) must be verified (for lack of a better term) by the known five senses. Sixth sense claims are a dime a dozen, well, actually, a penny a thousand. As such, there is no reason to trust sixth sense claims even by the person making them. <br /><br />There are way too many cases of people deluding themselves into thinking they've had a veridical religious experience for those experiences to be trustworthy, there are better alternative explanations for them (think wish fulfillment), and there are a myriad of examples of people defending what they were raised to believe with ad hoc explanations such as what Plantinga and Craig use for you to think a sixth sense can be anything remotely reliable when compared to what the five senses tell us. And the five senses are what we use when we do science.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-82780861947500556122009-09-23T03:35:33.740-04:002009-09-23T03:35:33.740-04:00Eric, I think you've made your point but as I ...Eric, I think you've made your point but as I and others argue yours is a pyrrhic victory, a technicality that has no force to it at all--a mere possibility. We're looking at probabilities. My claim is that the more often you must resort to the "possible" defense of your faith (rather than what's probable) then the less likely your faith is true. Here you are at it again.<br /><br />And if an internalist epistemology is the case then we all ought to be agnostics, but if an externalism is the case then you ought to abandon YOUR faith.<br /><br />As we've both said though, this is a separate matter.<br /><br />I enjoy reading your *ahem* <i>pathetic</i> attempts to defend what you were raised to believe by a Christian culture because it's very interesting to see you resolve your cognitive dissonance.<br /><br />David Eller, in a chapter for my edited book, <i>The Christian Delusion</i>, argues that it is very difficult to argue Christians out of their faith because they were never argued into it in the first place.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-16349417084437416902009-09-23T00:32:53.198-04:002009-09-23T00:32:53.198-04:00Lee, you're setting things up so it's eith...Lee, you're setting things up so it's either 'you win' or 'I lose.' First, you praise clarity, but when I try to reduce your meandering comments to a coherent principle we can discuss, you accuse me of oversimplifying! Then, to top it all off, you claim I'm being evasive and obfuscatory! Which is it: am I oversimplifying, or am I being obfuscatory? (If I'm doing both, I must be damn good...)<br /><br />As far as my 'picking at the edges,' I'm sorry, but this is simply laughable. *I'm attacking the central premise of the video*. If this raises issues that are not immediately apparent, it doesn't follow that tackling them is 'picking at the edges.' You said you enjoy epistemology, but anyone who has studied the subject at even the most basic level will tell you that you'll encounter a host of problems that 1) you've never thought of for a moment, i.e. are not at all obvious problems, and that 2) if you had thought of them before beginning formally to study epistemology, you'd most likely have dismissed them as material for mental masturbation. In other words, I'm having a hard time understanding just what you mean when you claim to enjoy epistemology, because much of what you say is similar to what I hear from those who despise philosophy as such.<br /><br />I also have to say that I take offense at the baseless charge that I'm 'playing on people's ignorance.' Would you please either defend this claim, apologize for having made it, or reformulate it?<br /><br />Finally, Um, Lee, if you're reading my comments on this blog, you have access to the internet. If you have access to the internet, then who in the world cares what's in your little desk dictionary? Open up a new tab, type in any unfamiliar word, and presto, there's the definition! After that, just use it in a sentence three or four times and it'll be yours for the rest of your life!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com