tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post3828357506008327873..comments2023-12-01T18:05:24.875-05:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: Eric On Believing Despite Not Being Able to Explain the AtonementUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-66811988990901793282010-06-07T15:44:30.481-04:002010-06-07T15:44:30.481-04:00I forgot to note why this:
"b) he lived in t...I forgot to note why this:<br /><br />"b) he lived in the mid-1200's (some 300 years BEFORE Copernicus),"<br /><br />is important (It's obvious to me, anyway) is because Aquinas was reasoning from an erroneous conception of the universe.GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1148128907563042472010-06-07T15:29:31.324-04:002010-06-07T15:29:31.324-04:00Chuck,
In earlier arguments with Eric, I pointed ...Chuck,<br /><br />In earlier arguments with Eric, I pointed out that Aquinas could be nothing but biased, since<br /><br />a) he was a Dominican monk<br />b) he lived in the mid-1200's (some 300 years BEFORE Copernicus), and<br />c) if he had come to any other conclusion than God, they would have burned him at the stake as a heretic and none of us would have ever heard of him.<br /><br />Therefore (I told Eric), we should throw out Aquinas as an authoritative epistemology: he was necessarily biased.<br /><br />I went further and pointed out that the Vatican didn't forgive Galileo until very recently, and that the reason the Vatican even HAS an observatory is so they don't get scooped like that again.GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-90896225940157010492010-06-07T12:50:14.437-04:002010-06-07T12:50:14.437-04:00There is a great post at Jerry Coyne's blog &q...There is a great post at Jerry Coyne's blog "Why Evolution is True" which shows the intellectual bankruptcy of Eric's favorite pretense, a Thomist orientation. <br /><br />Did you know Eric's beloved Catholic Church did not modify its Aristotlean cosmology until 1992 because a Thomist perspective would not admit a helio-centric universe?<br /><br />I think we can see the cost of a Thomist world-view right there.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15657598456196932490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-13516249188378098822010-06-02T23:46:55.875-04:002010-06-02T23:46:55.875-04:00My objection to Eric's position (and you can s...My objection to Eric's position (and you can see it in "Reality Check 17") is that he relies on Byzantine philosophy and outdated apologetics to point him to his conception of God.<br /><br />I have no objection to raw honesty, but his reasoning strikes me as tortured.GearHedEdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288513835630145996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-70127761807023621232010-06-02T22:37:42.717-04:002010-06-02T22:37:42.717-04:00Apologies if the numbers were wrong, but the point...Apologies if the numbers were wrong, but the point still holds. Appealing to the majority is not good reason. So I am not defending the numbers as a reason to believe, but as terrible reasoning to use them as a reason. Even if 99% of people believed in a god/gods, that would not be in itself a good reason to believe.<br /><br />As to the actual point, there have been no responses. The point was that John's reasoning for accepting the morals and basic ethics that he does is 1) because he wants to/finds them comforting, and 2) because they are nearly universally accepted. Both of which are reasons that he just accused Eric of using, saying that they are bad reasons.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-6505025105868529342010-06-02T20:00:12.387-04:002010-06-02T20:00:12.387-04:00The whole thing with 2/3 of the world claiming to ...The whole thing with 2/3 of the world claiming to be christian means nothing when they all belong to so many different denominations!<br /><br />So what if they claim to be christian, they also claim their specific doctrine in the correct one and all the others have it wrong.<br />There is also more then just denominations, there is also forms. Jehovahs witness and Mormons also use the bible!<br /><br />In reality, 2/3 is not the actual amount of agreable believers. They actually have to be broken down into sub-religions/faiths!!!!<br /><br />When we do this, the numbers actually testify against the validity of christianity rather then for it!shanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118637281630775156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-140786834197341772010-06-02T18:36:51.779-04:002010-06-02T18:36:51.779-04:00I can to extent agree with Eric in regards to peop...I can to extent agree with Eric in regards to people being able to believe something even though they may not be able to understand it.<br /><br />I mean....some people believe aliens have visited the earth, although they may have no idea how it is possible for another intelligent life to cross the vast expanse of space from a distant star that could possibly sustain life!<br /><br />It follows that we dont really have to understand the mechanics of something in order to believe it.<br /><br />But there is a difference between beliefs that are rational, and beliefs that defy rationality.<br /><br />Christians insist the atonement is true, they insist it was necessary....yet....they cannot rationally explain to us just "how" it is true, or "how" it is necessary!<br /><br />Christians cannot give us a reasonable answer how it is acceptable for one to stand in place of another as far as justice goes.<br />They cannot reasonably explain how Jesus only had to die a temporary physical death as payment, when the price of sin is suppossed to be eternal?<br /><br />The atonement, as well as the trinity, simply go against our human logic. And for any human to assert these things as true and necessary, is to go against their own rationality and ask others to do so as well!<br /><br />God gives us intelligent, thinking, calculating minds, then asks us to throw our natural conclusions aside in order to accept Him????<br /><br />Nope, dont think so!shanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118637281630775156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-74703076387476224462010-06-02T15:54:45.084-04:002010-06-02T15:54:45.084-04:00Great post John and I really enjoyed this conversa...Great post John and I really enjoyed this conversation with Eric. He seems to be one of the most extreme examples of cognitive bias I have ever seen. It borders on the tragic.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15657598456196932490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-23205786814486628132010-06-02T15:36:58.679-04:002010-06-02T15:36:58.679-04:00Some interesting stats:
This is from Christianity...Some interesting stats:<br /><br />This is from Christianity Today:<br /><br />33% of the world's population is considered to be Christian. <br />Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary (2006)<br /><br />Top 3 Largest National Christian Populations:<br />USA - 224,457,000 (85%) <br />Brazil - 139,000,000 (93%) <br />Mexico - 86,120,000 (99%) <br />Adherents.com (2005)<br /><br />Number of Christian Denominations:<br />There are approximately 38,000 Christian denominations in the world. This statistic takes into consideration cultural distinctions of denominations in different countries. <br />World Christian Encyclopedia (2001) <br /><br />The Major Denominations: <br />Roman Catholic - The Roman Catholic Church denomination is the largest Christian group in the world today with more than a billion followers constituting about half of the world's Christian population. <br /><br />Eastern Orthodox - Approximately 225 million people worldwide are Orthodox Christians. <br /><br />Protestant - There are approximately 500 million Protestants in the world. <br />ReligionFacts.com<br />*********<br /><br />This is from a 2007 Foreign Policy survey:<br /><br />Fastest Growing World Religions:<br /><br />Islam ranked first, with a growth rate of 1.84%. High birth rates are a major reason.<br /><br />The Bahai Faith comes in second, with a growth rate of 1.7 percent. Unlike Islam, however, which boasts 3.3 billion adherents, Bahais currently only count 7.7 million members<br /><br />Sikhism comes in third, with a growth rate of 1.62 percent and 25.8 million followers.<br /><br />Jainism, a religion many Americans have never even heard of, ranks fourth in terms of growth, with a rate of 1.57%. It’s 5.9 million followers live in India, the UK, Kenya, and the U.S., among other places.<br /><br />Hinduism takes the fifth spot with a growth rate of 1.52%. Indian birth rates are the real fuel behind this rise.<br /><br />Christianity didn’t make the top 5, but did come in sixth place with a growth rate of 1.38%, most of it seen in the Southern hemisphere.<br /><br />United States' fastest growing religion is “no religion”.zenmite AKA Marshall Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08696178493758587271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-66768798997591160422010-06-02T14:47:48.996-04:002010-06-02T14:47:48.996-04:00Two thirds, one third - re-assessing stats for Jes...Two thirds, one third - re-assessing stats for Jesus. Its been done before.Lazarushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11002628037154288374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-25724733299562054812010-06-02T12:45:08.299-04:002010-06-02T12:45:08.299-04:00gnosiskaisophia said... "Nearly 2/3 of the wo...gnosiskaisophia said... "Nearly 2/3 of the world claim to be Christians..."<br /><br />My understanding is Christians are just under then 1/3 of the worlds population. <br /><br />I understand they may be under reported in China, but not by 2 billion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-84528355986337545152010-06-02T11:51:03.227-04:002010-06-02T11:51:03.227-04:00I feel that you are spinning in circles of sorts. ...I feel that you are spinning in circles of sorts. Yes, most people do accept basic ethics, but then again, most people also believe in some sort of god, whether Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Pantheism, Polytheism. Nearly 2/3 of the world claim to be Christians, and another 20% claim to be Muslims. Thats nearly 90% of the world's population believing in a monotheistic god. But does that mean that they are right, or that this is evidence for their view? Of course not. So by appealing to the "majority" accepting basic ethics, this is not a rational reason to give for accepting them at all.<br /><br />Apart from everybody else believing them, what is your reason for holding to these, since "everybody else is doing it" is never a good answer, especially not for someone whose goal is to be rational?<br /><br />You also said that the reason you hold unwaveringly to some of your morals is "Because I want to live in some peace and security and pursue my goals unhindered by others in a community of people who help each other. Life is best lived that way." So you believe these because you want to? Isn't that what you were just criticizing Eric for? So you fall into the same problem you accuse him of.<br /><br />It seems that you ignore these things, and maybe this is because this is what makes you comfortable, and what you prefer to believe. Which is often why people believe things, but you can't act like you don't fall into that category as well, at least not when you use reasoning like this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-91465971832666529842010-06-02T11:10:52.241-04:002010-06-02T11:10:52.241-04:00Ken, interesting point. Would you want to say the ...Ken, interesting point. Would you want to say the problem of evil, the Trinity and the incarnation all involve contradictions for the same reasons too?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-82747456311987894342010-06-02T11:02:15.413-04:002010-06-02T11:02:15.413-04:00John,
I think there is a bigger problem than just...John,<br /><br />I think there is a bigger problem than just not being able to explain the mechanics of the atonement. It would be one thing if the atonement simply transcended reason but it is another thing when it contradicts reason. At least in the case of the Penal Sub. Theory, we have an innocent person suffering and paying the penalty owed by the guilty. That contradicts our sense of justice. And if our sense of justice comes from being made in the image of God, which most christians believe, then we have God contradicting himself. <br /><br />While this problem is especially acute for the PST, it is also a problem for the other theories because in each theory we have salvation being accomplished through the death of an innocent man.Ken Pulliamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12161943466797514854noreply@blogger.com