tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post412046807930736021..comments2024-03-25T17:35:02.238-04:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: A God Driven by Blood and Death: Human Sacrifice and the Slaughter of ChristUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-35629090035824942792008-08-26T19:56:00.000-04:002008-08-26T19:56:00.000-04:00Heather, the question remains if the local deity o...Heather, the question remains if the local deity of Israel (Yahweh) is the Theos or “God” of Jesus and the New Testament.<BR/><BR/>Marcion had a point! The God of the Old Testament was a cruel and evil god who now appears long dead.Harry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-41421500181224532282008-08-26T00:11:00.000-04:002008-08-26T00:11:00.000-04:00Again...Old Testament. Jesus died for us all and t...Again...Old Testament. <BR/><BR/>Jesus died for us all and the New Covenant with God was brought about...based on Faith. <BR/>Hmmmmm. Interesting. Not much sacrifice going on then.Heatherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07276466635642700708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-16945126599649608012008-08-20T02:05:00.000-04:002008-08-20T02:05:00.000-04:00Thanks my man, I just wanted you to know that I ha...Thanks my man, I just wanted you to know that I had at least read the article and there are a lot of things to discuss to do it justice.<BR/><BR/>Later.District Supt. Harvey Burnetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15315686602819371111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-11326517922846658922008-08-20T00:34:00.000-04:002008-08-20T00:34:00.000-04:00Harvey,I have not forgotten your comments and will...Harvey,<BR/><BR/>I have not forgotten your comments and will post my rebuttal in the next few days.<BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/>HarryHarry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-92211019157182310472008-08-16T02:13:00.000-04:002008-08-16T02:13:00.000-04:00Harry~ I've been delinquient, I'm sorry. I have a ...Harry~ I've been delinquient, I'm sorry. I have a few observations.<BR/><BR/>I think that we've adequately dealt with the "human sacrifice" element of this post on Lee's post. I don't plan to rehash that only to add this for this article:<BR/><BR/><B>The essential difference between heathen views of sacrifice and the scriptural doctrine of the Old Testament is not to be found in its denial of any of these views. In fact, it brings out clearly and distinctly the ideas which in heathenism were uncertain, vague, and perverted. But the essential points of distinction are two. First, that whereas the heathen conceived of their gods as alienated in jealousy or anger, to be sought after and to be appeased by the unaided action of man, Scripture represents God himself as approaching man, as pointing out and sanctioning the way by which the broken covenant should be restored. The second mark of distinction is closely connected with this, inasmuch as it shows sacrifice to be a scheme proceeding from God, and, in his foreknowledge, connected with the one central fact of all human history.</B> ~ <I>William Smith; revised and edited by F.N. and M.A. Peloubet, Smith’s Bible dictionary [computer file], electronic ed., Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997.</I><BR/><BR/>It is a terminological, and composite fallacy to suggest that the terms for what biblical sacrifice and terms for pagan sacrifice indicated the same thing. <BR/><BR/>In the case of Christianity the ultimate sacrifice was done by God for God and not by the will of man. <BR/><BR/>I'll leave that and go on to another flaw in the article:<BR/><BR/>Your refrences to the judgement of God upon the people in Numbers 11:1 are not identified or associated with the sins that the people committed which are Lust and whoredom, desire for Egypt and the food (associated with self satisfaction). There were combination sins that they performed(v.4). In addition, the constant complaining and murmering against God even though HE was supplying their every need. This only shows the egrigious nature of sin and God’s disdain for it. It also shows why we (humanity) needed a better mediator ultimately found in Jesus. <BR/><BR/>Your reference to Numbers 24:25 claimed to be the “rage” of God and his “thirst for blood” is a story in response to the SIN of Baalpeor in which men commit whoredom with the moabites (Lot’s children through incestous relations Israel’s cousins) and once again overlooks the justice of God in dealing with the issue. This sin and the resulting punishment was a proverb throughout Israel and often referred to reminding the people of what not to do. <BR/><BR/>Next to Cain and Able:<BR/><BR/>Gen. 4:3-4 ~ <B>“3And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD."</B> [Cain brought “of” the fruit of the ground]<BR/><B>4And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the<BR/> LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:”</B> [Abel brought the “FIRSTLINGS” of<BR/>his flock. <BR/><BR/>The Lord had <B>“respect”</B> <I>Shaah [shaw-aw] 1) to look at or to,regard, gaze at or about</I><BR/><BR/>Next God has a conversation with Cain to let him know that if he does good or serves<BR/>happily he would be accepted also (v.7). Evidently Cain did 3 things <BR/><BR/><B>1- Gave God an<BR/>OFFERING AND not A SACRIFICE</B> <BR/><BR/><B>2- Did not give God the first or best and</B> <BR/><BR/><B>3- did not<BR/>do it with enthusuasm or happily “well”</B> <BR/><BR/><BR/><B>"...there was no expiation of sin accorded to either gift. The concept of expiation develops later. We see a federative offering by Noah in Gen. 8:20 In the burnt offerings of Job for his <BR/>children, Job 1:5, and for his three friends, ch. 42:8, we for the first time find the<BR/>expression of the desire of expiation for sin."</B> ~ <I>William Smith; revised and edited by F.N.and M.A. Peloubet, Smith’s Bible dictionary [computer file], electronic ed., Logos<BR/>Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997</I> <BR/><BR/>The concept of offering was developed over time. During Mosaic Period The order of offerings: <BR/><BR/>1- the sin offering, to prepare access to God; <BR/>2- the burnt offering, to mark their dedication to his service; and <BR/>3- the meat offering of thanksgiving. <BR/><BR/>Henceforth the sacrificial system was fixed in all its parts until he should come whom it typified.<BR/><BR/><B>"The term “sweet savour” refers to God’s pleasure in the odor of burnt offerings, and is<BR/>now translated “pleasing odor” (Genesis 8:21 and many other occurrences). The word of<BR/>the LORD through the prophet Amos, “I will not smell in your solemn assemblies” (Amos<BR/>5:21) means that the LORD will not take pleasure in the burnt offerings of their solemn<BR/>assemblies. The revised versions translate the clause, “I take no delight in your solemn<BR/>assemblies.”</B> ~ <I>Ronald F. Bridges and Luther A. Weigle, King James Bible wordbook [computer file], electronic ed., Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1994.</I><BR/><BR/>The term “sweet savour” was metaphorical for what God was pleased with and not pleased with. He did not eat meat as the pagan gods (priests) did. <BR/><BR/>All that was “given to God” was burnt on the altar. There were exclusions that were clear. For CERTAIN sacrifices there were allowable portions retained by the Priests. Then there were other portions taken outside of the camp to be burned.<BR/><BR/>Another assumption that the article makes is that only flesh offerings created a “sweet <BR/>savor unto the Lord” that was incorrect. <BR/><BR/>A no blood “Meat Offering aka Meal Offering, Grain Offering and Cereal Offering ” (more connected to praise than sacrifice)was also burnt on the altar. <BR/><BR/>This offering was MEATLESS. Num 15:4 ~ “4Then shall he that offereth his offering unto the LORD bring a meat offering of<BR/>a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of oil.” Lev. 2:2 says that this<BR/>offering was an offering “made by fire”. <BR/><BR/>In short, not only flesh was burnt on the altar which indicated justification through faith in shed blood, but also "a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of oil." which indicated the sacrifice of "praise" "worship" and "adoration" for covering sin.<BR/><BR/>Finally, There were offerings in which God was the host of the meal. Peace Offerings (aka Fellowship offerings, heave offerings and waive offerings) were of such. <BR/><BR/><B>“Part of the offering was eaten by the priest (representing God’s acceptance) and part was eaten by worshipers and their guests (nonofficiating priests or Levites and the poor, Deut. 12:18; 16:11). Thus, God hosted the meal, communing with the worshiper and other participants. This sacrifice celebrated covering of sin, forgiveness by God, and the restoration of a right and meaningful relationship with God and with life itself (Judg. 20:26; 21:4).</B> ~ <I>Youngblood, Ronald F., General Editor; F.F. Bruce and R.K. Harrison, Consulting Editors, Nelson’s New Illustrated Bible Dictionary, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1995.</I><BR/><BR/>The system although much more detailed was not as confusing as it seems when spattered across the screen and amalgamated as one routine with a buch of different ways to do it. <BR/><BR/>Conclusion, the ONLY reason for any of it was sin. Gen. 3 is in the right place dealing with SIN and the results of sin. The geaneologies are adequately dealt with with one thing untouched and I'll leave that for my book.<BR/><BR/>I'll get at the rest of this later, because there are some issues (LOL) Later.District Supt. Harvey Burnetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15315686602819371111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-85785744120775052612008-08-12T06:02:00.000-04:002008-08-12T06:02:00.000-04:00Sacrificial Insanity, part two:Lev.8[13] And Moses...Sacrificial Insanity, part two:<BR/><BR/>Lev.8<BR/>[13] And Moses brought Aaron's sons, and clothed them with coats, and girded them with girdles, and bound caps on them, as the LORD commanded Moses. <BR/>[14] Then he brought the bull of the sin offering; and Aaron and his sons laid their hands upon the head of the bull of the sin offering. <BR/>[15] And Moses killed it, and took the blood, and with his finger put it on the horns of the altar round about, and purified the altar, and poured out the blood at the base of the altar, and consecrated it, to make atonement for it. <BR/>[16] And he took all the fat that was on the entrails, and the appendage of the liver, and the two kidneys with their fat, and Moses burned them on the altar. <BR/>[17] But the bull, and its skin, and its flesh, and its dung, he burned with fire outside the camp, as the LORD commanded Moses. <BR/>[18] Then he presented the ram of the burnt offering; and Aaron and his sons laid their hands on the head of the ram. <BR/>[19] And Moses killed it, and threw the blood upon the altar round about. <BR/>[20] And when the ram was cut into pieces, Moses burned the head and the pieces and the fat. <BR/>[21] And when the entrails and the legs were washed with water, Moses burned the whole ram on the altar, as a burnt offering, a pleasing odor, an offering by fire to the LORD, as the LORD commanded Moses. <BR/>[22] Then he presented the other ram, the ram of ordination; and Aaron and his sons laid their hands on the head of the ram. <BR/>[23] And Moses killed it, and took some of its blood and put it on the tip of Aaron's right ear and on the thumb of his right hand and on the great toe of his right foot. <BR/>[24] And Aaron's sons were brought, and Moses put some of the blood on the tips of their right ears and on the thumbs of their right hands and on the great toes of their right feet; and Moses threw the blood upon the altar round about.<BR/>[25] Then he took the fat, and the fat tail, and all the fat that was on the entrails, and the appendage of the liver, and the two kidneys with their fat, and the right thigh; <BR/>[26] and out of the basket of unleavened bread which was before the LORD he took one unleavened cake, and one cake of bread with oil, and one wafer, and placed them on the fat and on the right thigh; <BR/>[27] and he put all these in the hands of Aaron and in the hands of his sons, and waved them as a wave offering before the LORD. <BR/>[28] Then Moses took them from their hands, and burned them on the altar with the burnt offering, as an ordination offering, a pleasing odor, an offering by fire to the LORD. <BR/>[29] And Moses took the breast, and waved it for a wave offering before the LORD; it was Moses' portion of the ram of ordination, as the LORD commanded Moses. <BR/>[30] Then Moses took some of the anointing oil and of the blood which was on the altar, and sprinkled it upon Aaron and his garments, and also upon his sons and his sons' garments; so he consecrated Aaron and his garments, and his sons and his sons' garments with him. <BR/>[31] And Moses said to Aaron and his sons, "Boil the flesh at the door of the tent of meeting, and there eat it and the bread that is in the basket of ordination offerings, as I commanded, saying, `Aaron and his sons shall eat it'; <BR/>[32] and what remains of the flesh and the bread you shall burn with fire. <BR/><BR/>Lev.9<BR/>[1] On the eighth day Moses called Aaron and his sons and the elders of Israel; <BR/>[2] and he said to Aaron, "Take a bull calf for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering, both without blemish, and offer them before the LORD. <BR/>[3] And say to the people of Israel, `Take a male goat for a sin offering, and a calf and a lamb, both a year old without blemish, for a burnt offering, <BR/>[4] and an ox and a ram for peace offerings, to sacrifice before the LORD, and a cereal offering mixed with oil; for today the LORD will appear to you.'" <BR/>[5] And they brought what Moses commanded before the tent of meeting; and all the congregation drew near and stood before the LORD. <BR/>[6] And Moses said, "This is the thing which the LORD commanded you to do; and the glory of the LORD will appear to you." <BR/>[7] Then Moses said to Aaron, "Draw near to the altar, and offer your sin offering and your burnt offering, and make atonement for yourself and for the people; and bring the offering of the people, and make atonement for them; as the LORD has commanded." <BR/>[8] So Aaron drew near to the altar, and killed the calf of the sin offering, which was for himself. <BR/>[9] And the sons of Aaron presented the blood to him, and he dipped his finger in the blood and put it on the horns of the altar, and poured out the blood at the base of the altar; <BR/>[10] but the fat and the kidneys and the appendage of the liver from the sin offering he burned upon the altar, as the LORD commanded Moses. <BR/>[11] The flesh and the skin he burned with fire outside the camp. <BR/>[12] And he killed the burnt offering; and Aaron's sons delivered to him the blood, and he threw it on the altar round about. <BR/>[13] And they delivered the burnt offering to him, piece by piece, and the head; and he burned them upon the altar. <BR/>[14] And he washed the entrails and the legs, and burned them with the burnt offering on the altar. <BR/>[15] Then he presented the people's offering, and took the goat of the sin offering which was for the people, and killed it, and offered it for sin, like the first sin offering. <BR/>[16] And he presented the burnt offering, and offered it according to the ordinance. <BR/>[17] And he presented the cereal offering, and filled his hand from it, and burned it upon the altar, besides the burnt offering of the morning. <BR/>[18] He killed the ox also and the ram, the sacrifice of peace offerings for the people; and Aaron's sons delivered to him the blood, which he threw upon the altar round about, <BR/>[19] and the fat of the ox and of the ram, the fat tail, and that which covers the entrails, and the kidneys, and the appendage of the liver; <BR/>[20] and they put the fat upon the breasts, and he burned the fat upon the altar, <BR/>[21] but the breasts and the right thigh Aaron waved for a wave offering before the LORD; as Moses commanded. <BR/>[22] Then Aaron lifted up his hands toward the people and blessed them; and he came down from offering the sin offering and the burnt offering and the peace offerings. <BR/>[23] And Moses and Aaron went into the tent of meeting; and when they came out they blessed the people, and the glory of the LORD appeared to all the people. <BR/>[24] And fire came forth from before the LORD and consumed the burnt offering and the fat upon the altar; and when all the people saw it, they shouted, and fell on their faces. <BR/><BR/>Lev.10<BR/>[12] And Moses said to Aaron and to Elea'zar and Ith'amar, his sons who were left, "Take the cereal offering that remains of the offerings by fire to the LORD, and eat it unleavened beside the altar, for it is most holy; <BR/>[13] you shall eat it in a holy place, because it is your due and your sons' due, from the offerings by fire to the LORD; for so I am commanded. <BR/>[14] But the breast that is waved and the thigh that is offered you shall eat in any clean place, you and your sons and your daughters with you; for they are given as your due and your sons' due, from the sacrifices of the peace offerings of the people of Israel. <BR/>[15] The thigh that is offered and the breast that is waved they shall bring with the offerings by fire of the fat, to wave for a wave offering before the LORD, and it shall be yours, and your sons' with you, as a due for ever; as the LORD has commanded." <BR/>[16] Now Moses diligently inquired about the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it was burned! And he was angry with Elea'zar and Ith'amar, the sons of Aaron who were left, saying, <BR/>[17] "Why have you not eaten the sin offering in the place of the sanctuary, since it is a thing most holy and has been given to you that you may bear the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the LORD? <BR/>[18] Behold, its blood was not brought into the inner part of the sanctuary. You certainly ought to have eaten it in the sanctuary, as I commanded." <BR/><BR/>Lev.16<BR/>[2] and the LORD said to Moses, "Tell Aaron your brother not to come at all times into the holy place within the veil, before the mercy seat which is upon the ark, lest he die; for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat. <BR/>[3] But thus shall Aaron come into the holy place: with a young bull for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering. <BR/>[5] And he shall take from the congregation of the people of Israel two male goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering. <BR/>[6] "And Aaron shall offer the bull as a sin offering for himself, and shall make atonement for himself and for his house. <BR/>[7] Then he shall take the two goats, and set them before the LORD at the door of the tent of meeting; <BR/>[8] and Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats, one lot for the LORD and the other lot for Aza'zel. <BR/>[9] And Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for the LORD, and offer it as a sin offering; <BR/>[10] but the goat on which the lot fell for Aza'zel shall be presented alive before the LORD to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Aza'zel. <BR/>[11] "Aaron shall present the bull as a sin offering for himself, and shall make atonement for himself and for his house; he shall kill the bull as a sin offering for himself. <BR/>[14] and he shall take some of the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it with his finger on the front of the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat he shall sprinkle the blood with his finger seven times. <BR/>[15] "Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering which is for the people, and bring its blood within the veil, and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it upon the mercy seat and before the mercy seat; <BR/>[18] Then he shall go out to the altar which is before the LORD and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and of the blood of the goat, and put it on the horns of the altar round about. <BR/>[19] And he shall sprinkle some of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it and hallow it from the uncleannesses of the people of Israel. <BR/>[20] "And when he has made an end of atoning for the holy place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall present the live goat; <BR/>[21] and Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the people of Israel, and all their transgressions, all their sins; and he shall put them upon the head of the goat, and send him away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who is in readiness. <BR/>[22] The goat shall bear all their iniquities upon him to a solitary land; and he shall let the goat go in the wilderness. <BR/>[25] And the fat of the sin offering he shall burn upon the altar.<BR/>[26] And he who lets the goat go to Aza'zel shall wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward he may come into the camp. <BR/>[27] And the bull for the sin offering and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall be carried forth outside the camp; their skin and their flesh and their dung shall be burned with fire. <BR/> <BR/>Lev.17<BR/>[5] This is to the end that the people of Israel may bring their sacrifices which they slay in the open field, that they may bring them to the LORD, to the priest at the door of the tent of meeting, and slay them as sacrifices of peace offerings to the LORD; <BR/>[6] and the priest shall sprinkle the blood on the altar of the LORD at the door of the tent of meeting, and burn the fat for a pleasing odor to the LORD. <BR/>[11] For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it for you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life. <BR/>[12] Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, No person among you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger who sojourns among you eat blood. <BR/>[13] Any man also of the people of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among them, who takes in hunting any beast or bird that may be eaten shall pour out its blood and cover it with dust. <BR/>[14] "For the life of every creature is the blood of it; therefore I have said to the people of Israel, You shall not eat the blood of any creature, for the life of every creature is its blood; whoever eats it shall be cut off.<BR/><BR/>Nice little gig the priests had going there, wasn't it?<BR/>They got to keep all the best bits of the sacrifices, and gave Yahweh all the offcuts and the offal.<BR/><BR/>I've heard it described as being 'life in the ancient meat-packing business'. The priests were in effect running a holy protection racket. Nice work if you could get it!<BR/><BR/>I wonder who got lumbered with the job of collecting all the firewood for their 'beatific barbecues'?DingoDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18386229762871857788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-11686177315516066102008-08-12T05:47:00.000-04:002008-08-12T05:47:00.000-04:00Harvey Burnett wrote:-"Dingo~ Hey my friend, I wou...Harvey Burnett wrote:<BR/>-"Dingo~ Hey my friend, I would only say to your observation that the sacrifice that was burnt was to be burned totally in most cases. In the cases where it was shared with the priests usually nothing was "burned" or given to him (God)."<BR/><BR/>Most of the time the sacrificial victim wasn't completely burned. The priests usually kept all the best bits for themselves, then burned all the fatty, stinky bits, 'when they offered to Yahweh his food, the fat and the blood', so that he could "smell it's sweet odor."<BR/><BR/>By the way, how do you know that the burning of sheep and cattle carcases wasn't viewed in the same way as 'Yahweh pulling up a plate and fork'? <BR/>If you could go back in time to those days, then I'll bet you'd find that's exactly what the Israelites pictured as happening. Just because YOU see these sacrifices being 'FOOD' for Yahweh as being silly and primitive, doesn't mean that the ancient Israelites saw it that way.<BR/><BR/>Laugh all you want Harvey, because that's what I do when I read about these primitive, superstitious ceremonies .<BR/>Aren't you the least bit ashamed or embarrassed by claiming to believe such nonsense? <BR/>I will list out the sacrificial regulations in all their gory detail, so that you can see just how ridiculous they are. <BR/>Remember Harvey, that according to you and other Christians, it is the creator of the universe who is supposed to have given these solemn instructions to Moses.<BR/><BR/>My favourite one is, "Moses killed it (the sheep), and took some of its blood and put it on the tip of Aaron's right ear and on the thumb of his right hand and on the great toe of his right foot. And Aaron's sons were brought, and Moses put some of the blood on the tips of their right ears and on the thumbs of their right hands and on the great toes of their right feet; and Moses threw the blood upon the altar round about." : O : D LOL <BR/><BR/>Have you ever read anything more ridiculous in your entire life? It's baaarking mad! : D<BR/><BR/>I'll probably break this up into two posts, because I think there is just way too much insanity listed out in these sacrificial laws to be able to fit it all into one post.<BR/><BR/>Lev.3<BR/>[1] "If a man's offering is a sacrifice of peace offering, if he offers an animal from the herd, male or female, he shall offer it without blemish before the LORD. <BR/>[2] And he shall lay his hand upon the head of his offering and kill it at the door of the tent of meeting; and Aaron's sons the priests shall throw the blood against the altar round about. <BR/>[3] And from the sacrifice of the peace offering, as an offering by fire to the LORD, he shall offer the fat covering the entrails and all the fat that is on the entrails, <BR/>[4] and the two kidneys with the fat that is on them at the loins, and the appendage of the liver which he shall take away with the kidneys. <BR/>[5] Then Aaron's sons shall burn it on the altar upon the burnt offering, which is upon the wood on the fire; it is an offering by fire, a pleasing odor to the LORD. <BR/>[9] Then from the sacrifice of the peace offering as an offering by fire to the LORD he shall offer its fat, the fat tail entire, taking it away close by the backbone, and the fat that covers the entrails, and all the fat that is on the entrails, <BR/>[11] And the priest shall burn it on the altar as food offered by fire to the LORD. <BR/>[10] and the two kidneys with the fat that is on them at the loins, and the appendage of the liver which he shall take away with the kidneys. <BR/>[12] "If his offering is a goat, then he shall offer it before the LORD, <BR/>[13] and lay his hand upon its head, and kill it before the tent of meeting; and the sons of Aaron shall throw its blood against the altar round about. <BR/>[14] Then he shall offer from it, as his offering for an offering by fire to the LORD, the fat covering the entrails, and all the fat that is on the entrails, <BR/>[15] and the two kidneys with the fat that is on them at the loins, and the appendage of the liver which he shall take away with the kidneys. <BR/>[16] And the priest shall burn them on the altar as food offered by fire for a pleasing odor. All fat is the LORD's. <BR/>[17] It shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations, in all your dwelling places, that you eat neither fat nor blood." <BR/><BR/><BR/>Lev.4<BR/>[1] And the LORD said to Moses, <BR/>[2] "Say to the people of Israel, If any one sins unwittingly in any of the things which the LORD has commanded not to be done, and does any one of them, <BR/>[3] if it is the anointed priest who sins, thus bringing guilt on the people, then let him offer for the sin which he has committed a young bull without blemish to the LORD for a sin offering. <BR/>[4] He shall bring the bull to the door of the tent of meeting before the LORD, and lay his hand on the head of the bull, and kill the bull before the LORD. <BR/>[5] And the anointed priest shall take some of the blood of the bull and bring it to the tent of meeting; <BR/>[6] and the priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle part of the blood seven times before the LORD in front of the veil of the sanctuary. <BR/>[7] And the priest shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar of fragrant incense before the LORD which is in the tent of meeting, and the rest of the blood of the bull he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering which is at the door of the tent of meeting. <BR/>[8] And all the fat of the bull of the sin offering he shall take from it, the fat that covers the entrails and all the fat that is on the entrails, <BR/>[9] and the two kidneys with the fat that is on them at the loins, and the appendage of the liver which he shall take away with the kidneys <BR/>[14] when the sin which they have committed becomes known, the assembly shall offer a young bull for a sin offering and bring it before the tent of meeting; <BR/>[15] and the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands upon the head of the bull before the LORD, and the bull shall be killed before the LORD. <BR/>[16] Then the anointed priest shall bring some of the blood of the bull to the tent of meeting, <BR/>[17] and the priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD in front of the veil. <BR/>[18] And he shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar which is in the tent of meeting before the LORD; and the rest of the blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering which is at the door of the tent of meeting. <BR/>[19] And all its fat he shall take from it and burn upon the altar. <BR/>[20] Thus shall he do with the bull; as he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this; and the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven. <BR/>[26] And all its fat he shall burn on the altar, like the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings; so the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin, and he shall be forgiven. <BR/>[31] And all its fat he shall remove, as the fat is removed from the peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a pleasing odor to the LORD; and the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven. <BR/>[35] And all its fat he shall remove as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar, upon the offerings by fire to the LORD; and the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven. <BR/><BR/>Lev.6<BR/>[6] And he shall bring to the priest his guilt offering to the LORD, a ram without blemish out of the flock, valued by you at the price for a guilt offering; <BR/>[7] and the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he shall be forgiven for any of the things which one may do and thereby become guilty." <BR/>[8] The LORD said to Moses, <BR/>[9] "Command Aaron and his sons, saying, This is the law of the burnt offering. The burnt offering shall be on the hearth upon the altar all night until the morning, and the fire of the altar shall be kept burning on it. <BR/>[10] And the priest shall put on his linen garment, and put his linen breeches upon his body, and he shall take up the ashes to which the fire has consumed the burnt offering on the altar, and put them beside the altar. <BR/>[11] Then he shall put off his garments, and put on other garments, and carry forth the ashes outside the camp to a clean place. <BR/>[12] The fire on the altar shall be kept burning on it, it shall not go out; the priest shall burn wood on it every morning, and he shall lay the burnt offering in order upon it, and shall burn on it the fat of the peace offerings.<BR/>[14] "And this is the law of the cereal offering. The sons of Aaron shall offer it before the LORD, in front of the altar. <BR/>[15] And one shall take from it a handful of the fine flour of the cereal offering with its oil and all the frankincense which is on the cereal offering, and burn this as its memorial portion on the altar, a pleasing odor to the LORD. <BR/>[16] And the rest of it Aaron and his sons shall eat; it shall be eaten unleavened in a holy place; in the court of the tent of meeting they shall eat it. <BR/>[25] "Say to Aaron and his sons, This is the law of the sin offering. In the place where the burnt offering is killed shall the sin offering be killed before the LORD; it is most holy. <BR/>[26] The priest who offers it for sin shall eat it; in a holy place it shall be eaten, in the court of the tent of meeting. <BR/><BR/>Lev.7<BR/>[1] "This is the law of the guilt offering. It is most holy; <BR/>[2] in the place where they kill the burnt offering they shall kill the guilt offering, and its blood shall be thrown on the altar round about.<BR/>[3] And all its fat shall be offered, the fat tail, the fat that covers the entrails, <BR/>[4] the two kidneys with the fat that is on them at the loins, and the appendage of the liver which he shall take away with the kidneys; <BR/>[24] The fat of an animal that dies of itself, and the fat of one that is torn by beasts, may be put to any other use, but on no account shall you eat it. <BR/>[25] For every person who eats of the fat of an animal of which an offering by fire is made to the LORD shall be cut off from his people. <BR/>[30] he shall bring with his own hands the offerings by fire to the LORD; he shall bring the fat with the breast, that the breast may be waved as a wave offering before the LORD. <BR/>[31] The priest shall burn the fat on the altar, but the breast shall be for Aaron and his sons. <BR/>[33] he among the sons of Aaron who offers the blood of the peace offerings and the fat shall have the right thigh for a portion. <BR/>[34] For the breast that is waved and the thigh that is offered I have taken from the people of Israel, out of the sacrifices of their peace offerings, and have given them to Aaron the priest and to his sons, as a perpetual due from the people of Israel. <BR/>[35] This is the portion of Aaron and of his sons from the offerings made by fire to the LORD, consecrated to them on the day they were presented to serve as priests of the LORD; <BR/>[36] the LORD commanded this to be given them by the people of Israel, on the day that they were anointed; it is a perpetual due throughout their generations." <BR/>[37] This is the law of the burnt offering, of the cereal offering, of the sin offering, of the guilt offering, of the consecration, and of the peace offerings,<BR/>[38] which the LORD commanded Moses on Mount Sinai, on the day that he commanded the people of Israel to bring their offerings to the LORD, in the wilderness of Sinai.DingoDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18386229762871857788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-47289097219052786202008-08-12T02:10:00.000-04:002008-08-12T02:10:00.000-04:00Dingo~ Hey my friend, I would only say to your obs...Dingo~ Hey my friend, I would only say to your observation that the sacrifice that was burnt was to be burned totally in most cases. In the cases where it was shared with the priests usually nothing was "burned" or given to him (God). <BR/><BR/>So the sense in which the sacrifice was "food" was in an honoriffic sense and not literal sense where God's pullin' up a plate, knife and fork etc.(LOL) <BR/><BR/>Based on how the sacrifice is treated the only way to interpret such, would be to base the narrative on illustrative or metaphorical language that certainly they would have understood. <BR/><BR/>Harry, I've got some points to challenge you on and I'll post those tomorrow.District Supt. Harvey Burnetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15315686602819371111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-81452875339153543902008-08-11T22:09:00.000-04:002008-08-11T22:09:00.000-04:00Great points Dingo! ThanksGreat points Dingo! ThanksHarry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-4615531012506869552008-08-11T20:11:00.000-04:002008-08-11T20:11:00.000-04:00The Bible clearly states that the sacrifices are t...The Bible clearly states that the sacrifices are to be looked upon as being food for Yahweh.<BR/><BR/>Lev.3<BR/>[11] And the priest shall burn it on the altar as food offered by fire to the LORD. <BR/>[16] And the priest shall burn them on the altar as food offered by fire for a pleasing odor. All fat is the LORD's. <BR/><BR/>Num.28<BR/>[2] "Command the people of Israel, and say to them, `My offering, my food for my offerings by fire, my pleasing odor, you shall take heed to offer to me in its due season.' <BR/>[24] In the same way you shall offer daily, for seven days, the food of an offering by fire, a pleasing odor to the LORD; it shall be offered besides the continual burnt offering and its drink offering. <BR/><BR/>Judg.13<BR/>[16] And the angel of the LORD said to Mano'ah, "If you detain me, I will not eat of your food; but if you make ready a burnt offering, then offer it to the LORD." (For Mano'ah did not know that he was the angel of the LORD.) <BR/><BR/>Ezek.44<BR/>[7] in admitting foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and flesh, to be in my sanctuary, profaning it, when you offer to me my food, the fat and the blood. You have broken my covenant, in addition to all your abominations. <BR/><BR/>Mal.1<BR/>[7] By offering polluted food upon my altar. And you say, `How have we polluted it?' By thinking that the LORD's table may be despised. <BR/>[12] But you profane it when you say that the LORD's table is polluted, and the food for it may be despised. <BR/><BR/>Mal.3<BR/>[10] Bring the full tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house; and thereby put me to the test, says the LORD of hosts...DingoDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18386229762871857788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-26143661238190748842008-08-09T13:16:00.000-04:002008-08-09T13:16:00.000-04:00Harry, I ain's leavin(LOL) You did do a lot of res...Harry, I ain's leavin(LOL) You did do a lot of research and I've got to get the time to read it...and I DO appreciate your research my friend.<BR/><BR/>Now, so far as the Dr's credentials, I don't hold them or him suspect. I only state that IF this guy rendered a clear and unequivocable(sp) statement in favor of the bible and scripture, YOU wouldn't care how credentialed he was. You would think him through critically. <BR/><BR/>I only offer (as for that statement and assessment of the Psalm) that he suggests that the psalm is regarding a precreation account of the condition of heaven and an epic battle (at least so it seems)and a "cosmic temple" I reject that assessment of the Psalm. However, admittedly, I base my rejection on what is included in the bible. <BR/><BR/>At the very least I'd like to know his source information for coming to that conclusion. For him to suggest it and for neither you or I to challenge it, is not good critical evaluation of the material. <BR/><BR/>In short his degrees don't scare me just like I know they don't scare you. I simply don't agree with his statement. <BR/><BR/>I am looking to try to find info on where that tradition may have come from. That, to me, seems to be an important issue in the establishment of the article premise. <BR/><BR/>Nontheless, I'll get back at ya my friend. I'll get through the rest this afternoon. <BR/><BR/>Thanks.District Supt. Harvey Burnetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15315686602819371111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-44604656220003303442008-08-08T22:21:00.000-04:002008-08-08T22:21:00.000-04:00Thanks Dingo! I think this was way over the top of...Thanks Dingo! <BR/><BR/>I think this was way over the top of the Christian apologist’s heads that come here to debate since the majority relate to the social aspects of their faith and endure the boring Sunday sermons.<BR/><BR/>I spent about 50 hours writing this post; during the research, and word studies. The hardest part to break free from is the Cain and Abel story as the second generation humans on the earth, plus with the New Testament Gospel ideals projected back on theses two just as the Christian dogma of “Original Sin” is force on to the Adam and Eve story.<BR/><BR/>I’m sad to say that even good old D.S. Harvey Bennett made a quick comment and left. <BR/><BR/>Oh, well; I tried.Harry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-8864016573079807952008-08-08T22:00:00.000-04:002008-08-08T22:00:00.000-04:00Dan +†+ said... "Who want's a t-shirt?"I noticed t...Dan +†+ said... <BR/>"Who want's a t-shirt?"<BR/><BR/>I noticed that you're proudly holding up a half-eaten banana on your new t-shirt design Dan.<BR/><BR/>Surely your not SERIOUSLY alluding to Ray Comfort's 'banana argument' for intelligent design are you? Even HE is embarrassed about having used that one.<BR/><BR/>In a recent radio interview he even admitted that he had 'made a monkey out of himself' by doing so. You might like to re-design your t-shirts using his 'Coke can' analogy instead. : )<BR/>(although it's just as bad)<BR/><BR/>Are you aware that our modern bananas are the product of centuries of artificial selection and cloning? Are you also aware that these modern bananas can't even reproduce on their own without human assistance? <BR/><BR/>Are you also aware that the original, naturally occuring bananas from which all of our modern desert bananas have been bred, are as tough as old boots, dry as a dead dingo's donger, full of large hard seeds, virtually inedible, and need to be cooked before being able to be eaten?<BR/><BR/>Or is your new t-shirt design a joke? <BR/><BR/>If it isn't, then the joke is on you! : D<BR/><BR/>The Stupid -- IT BURNS! : (DingoDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18386229762871857788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-29376502905968429742008-08-08T21:25:00.000-04:002008-08-08T21:25:00.000-04:00Excellent article Harry.You really hit on a lot of...Excellent article Harry.<BR/><BR/>You really hit on a lot of good points. <BR/><BR/>I particularly liked your observation that the Cain and Abel story doesn't belong where it has been put in the Bible.<BR/><BR/>I only wish that this sort of information had been available, in this form, when I first began questioning my religious beliefs. <BR/><BR/>The young people of today don't realise how lucky they are! : ) <BR/><BR/>Thanks.DingoDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18386229762871857788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-77623192187326278362008-08-08T13:37:00.000-04:002008-08-08T13:37:00.000-04:00Harvey, please explain just how "Frank" is wrong (...Harvey, please explain just how "Frank" is wrong (that this man does not know what he is talking about):<BR/><BR/>Frank Moore Cross, Jr. (born July 13 1921, Ross, California) is a Professor Emeritus of the Harvard Divinity School, notable for both, his work in the interpretation of the Dead Sea Scrolls as well as his analysis of the Deuteronomistic History (DH).<BR/><BR/>Cross took his BA in 1942 at Maryville College, and his BD in 1946 at the McCormick Theological Seminary. He gained his PhD in Semitic languages at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore in 1950, where he studied under William F. Albright, the great scholar of the Near East, and his MA at Harvard in 1958. Cross was awarded a DPhil at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem in 1984 and a DSc from the University of Lethbridge in 1990.<BR/><BR/>Career<BR/>From 1949-1950 Cross was a Junior Instructor in Semitic languages at Johns Hopkins University, an instructor in Biblical History at Wellesley College from 1950 - 1951, and an Instructor in Old Testament at McCormick Theological Seminary 1951-1953, and was an Associate Professor from 1954-1957. Cross was appointed Associate Professor in Old Testament at Harvard Divinity School from 1957-1958.<BR/>At Harvard Cross was Hancock Professor of Hebrew and Other Oriental Languages in the Department of Near East Languages and Civilisations from 1958-1992, since when he has been Hancock Professor Emeritus of Hebrew and Other Oriental Languages. In addition, since 1958 he has been the Chairman of the Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilisations at Harvard, and Curator of the Harvard Semitic Museum from 1958-1961, and then Director of the Museum from 1974-1987.<BR/>Frank Moore Cross was a Fellow of the American Council of Learned Societies (1971-1972), a Fellow of the Institute for Advanced Studies at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem (1978-1979), a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and a Member of the American Philosophical Society.<BR/>His students include Richard Elliot Friedman and Mark S. Smith, both important figures in the study of Ancient Near East history and religion.<BR/><BR/>Dead Sea Scrolls<BR/>Since June 1953 Cross has been a member of the international committee responsible for editing the Dead Sea Scrolls which had been found at Qumran in the West Bank. Cross first heard of the Scrolls while a student at Johns Hopkins University when he was shown pictures of the Isaiah Scroll by William F Albright, one of his lecturers, who later was to nominate Cross to join the Scrolls editorial team. On joining the team he was immediately allocated 61 Biblical manuscripts from Cave 4 at Qumran to prepare for publication. Initially, this involved cleaning the manuscripts in the Palestine Archaeological Museum where they were being worked on in the 'Scrollery'. As with several others on the team, Cross was financially supported between 1954 to 1960 by a John D Rockefeller subsidy.<BR/>Like Roland de Vaux, Cross was a Biblical scholar, and he used the Biblical manuscripts of Qumran to lay out a textual history of the Tanakh, and by using the non-Biblical texts he examined the development of the Jewish scribal hand from the third century BCE to the first century CE. He began to share certain Biblical scrolls from Qumran with his graduate students, some of whom published them in doctoral dissertations. Cross's datings of Jewish scribal writings gleaned from his work on the Scrolls and based on palaegraphical typology are still widely use in editions of the Scrolls.<BR/>He was one of only two American scholars on the scroll-publication team, being personally responsible for identifying thousands of fragments, all of which have now been published. Cross is widely regarded as a pioneer in Qumran studies.<BR/><BR/>Honors and Awards<BR/>In 1980 Cross received the Percia Schimmel Prize in Archaeology from the Israel Museum and the William Foxwell Albright Award in Biblical Scholarship. In 1991 he was awarded the Medalla de Honor de la Universidad Complutense (University of Madrid), the Gratz College Centennial Award in 1998 and a Lifetime Award in Textual Studies from the National Foundation for Jewish Culture in 2004.<BR/>Cross is an Honorary Member of the Israel Exploration Society and the British the Society for Old Testament Study. He was a Trustee of the American Schools of Oriental Research (1973-1991), and an Honorary Trustee from 1991; a Trustee of the Ancient Biblical Manuscript Center (1979-1996) and a Lifetime Honorary Trustee from 1997; and a Trustee of the Dead Sea Scrolls Foundation since 1992.Harry H. McCallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08974655354593831851noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-391102918419120782008-08-08T12:28:00.000-04:002008-08-08T12:28:00.000-04:00Harvey, Harry has given you lots of textual and cu...Harvey, Harry has given you lots of textual and cultural evidence to support his claim.<BR/><BR/>What evidence to you have to suggest that first, his claim is incorrect and second, that your reading of the text is more valid?Evanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14299188458940897810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-72158485679408122762008-08-08T01:38:00.000-04:002008-08-08T01:38:00.000-04:00Harry~ "One of the best Sitz im Leben of this anci...Harry~ "One of the best Sitz im Leben of this ancient poem is given by Frank Cross:<BR/><BR/>“We may see reflected in this liturgy the reenactment of the victory of Yahweh in the primordial battle and his enthronement in the divine council or, better, in his newly built (cosmic) temple."<BR/><BR/>Wrong Frank, this was upon the reentry of the Ark of the Covenant into Jerusalem under the reign of David. (2 Sam. 6:12-15) <BR/><BR/>Frank offers the wrong "Sitz im Leben" therefore conclusions drawn from it are skewed at best if not down right fallacious. <BR/><BR/>These posts are so long and are usually a trasuretrove of fallacious and erroneous assertions (well argued wrong assertions) but wrong non the less...I'll get back with other pieces as I get time...but this was off 4 sho!<BR/><BR/>Peace.District Supt. Harvey Burnetthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15315686602819371111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-90622725199039486532008-08-07T23:28:00.000-04:002008-08-07T23:28:00.000-04:00Who want's a t-shirt?<A HREF="http://debunkingatheists.blogspot.com/2008/08/evolution-exposed.html" REL="nofollow">Who want's a t-shirt?</A>D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.com