tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post5810419702970459465..comments2024-03-25T17:35:02.238-04:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: Who or What is a Biblioblogger? By Dr. Hector Avalos, Iowa State UniversityUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger67125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-63324768059140434342010-01-02T18:33:48.811-05:002010-01-02T18:33:48.811-05:00Ralph,
I was thinking of the family's interes...Ralph,<br /><br />I was thinking of the family's interest. They would not normally be affected by Jim's post, but if they googled it, it would be offensive. I simply asked in a comment to add in the pertinent accurate information. But he would not post my comment. <br /><br />After that, I asked him to to remove the post. Bloggers do this all the time. If they find they have posted something that is inappropriate they can silently delete it without any fanfare and without drawing attention to it. <br /><br />Jim could have done this. He could have deleted it without any further comment being made by anyone.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-11374930075632987562010-01-02T16:57:53.120-05:002010-01-02T16:57:53.120-05:00Wouldn't it have been preferable to ask Jim We...Wouldn't it have been preferable to ask Jim West to apologise for his offensive post, rather than to delete it? By deleting it, he is simply covering up any traces of wrongdoing.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17870759633205735896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-28923770172651017662010-01-01T03:21:31.960-05:002010-01-01T03:21:31.960-05:00Why should Christians 'take on' fundamenta...Why should Christians 'take on' fundamentalists?<br /><br />Their imaginary god doesn't.<br /><br />Their imaginary god is perfectly happy if people believe rubbish and say it is his Word.<br /><br />You can say and do whatever you like in the name of this god. As he doesn't exist, he isn't going to stop youSteven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-21445912787732442492009-12-31T18:24:57.025-05:002009-12-31T18:24:57.025-05:00"But if you are talking about a suicide victi..."But if you are talking about a suicide victim or a rape victim, then somehow it is not funny" It is wicked and unforgiveable. That sort of behaviour actually drives people, homosexuals and so forth who are Christian and live with guilt of their apparent 'sin', to suicide.stephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02919095308998395424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-53875662881641094092009-12-31T17:28:13.864-05:002009-12-31T17:28:13.864-05:00It's slightly hard to have fun in an academic,...It's slightly hard to have fun in an academic, biblioblogging, or political setting, where people are so touchy...and yet so ruthless!James Patehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14247799389009268470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-86020730712537827022009-12-31T16:57:03.328-05:002009-12-31T16:57:03.328-05:00Thank you, Joel. That's why you are a friend. ...Thank you, Joel. That's why you are a friend. But I also rather like Loftus' blog. Let's have some interaction between you guys that is good clean fun.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-41451382326502181742009-12-31T16:43:22.346-05:002009-12-31T16:43:22.346-05:00I for one do my best to take on the fundamentalist...I for one do my best to take on the fundamentalists as well as atheists :)J. L. Wattshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01000798494472742263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-78982288475357677172009-12-31T16:36:43.788-05:002009-12-31T16:36:43.788-05:00Perhaps, I should not have used the language of &#...Perhaps, I should not have used the language of 'siding' with someone against someone else. <br /><br />My perspective is that its okay to have vigourous differences, first with the contents of published books and the explicitily labeled ideology presented therein. Its fine to be ruthless with that kind of thing. <br /><br />Its also okay to cite, cut and paste, etc. things that other bloggers say and expect them to turn up and defend themselves if they like. <br /><br />However, I do not think it is okay to go around calling people names, like 'sinner' 'bitter feminist' "fat slob' and so on. <br /><br />Obviously if you are commenting on someone's tastes about a pet, it is funny. <br /><br />But if you are talking about a suicide victim or a rape victim, then somehow it is not funny.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-61050472851971638352009-12-31T16:19:40.536-05:002009-12-31T16:19:40.536-05:00Just because many Christians won't take on fun...Just because many Christians won't take on fundamentalism, isn't an excuse to bash all of Christianity. I don't know any Christians who would 'side' with Loftus although they vigorously oppose someone like D'whatsit (whose voice is not heard outside the US). Why should they have to 'side' with either? Or is that just the american way - one extreme or the other, you can't be independent and disagree with both? Why can't you let go of your social sub groups and be free and independent thinkers? Maybe these 'Christians' you speak of are actually apologists anyway.<br /><br />I'm vigorously opposed to prejudice against homosexuals, fundamentalism of all stripes, your so called 'pro lifers', racism, classism, the sacrifice of good and free state education and health, and war. I'm not convinced by your argument for aggression.<br /><br />And by the way I'm so appalled at that post you brought to our attention I don't think I can speak to that person again. I still stand by my earlier critique of this pathetic biblio war thing though including my comments about him but now he too has gone too far. And while he's crossed the line before due to being religiously blinkered, this is truly not religiously motivated. It's malicious.stephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02919095308998395424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-3352506072013866782009-12-31T15:08:28.846-05:002009-12-31T15:08:28.846-05:00I don't think that division justifies aggressi...<i>I don't think that division justifies aggression in scholarship though I can see that oppressive fundamentalists in the situation you mention do require vigourous opposition.</i><br /><br />I see that it is somehow acceptable scholarship to be against creationism, but there are other issues in fundamentalist Christianity that some think deserve aggressive responses. <br /><br />I would mention the anti-homosexual movement, very powerful, the anti-no fault divorce initiative, the anti-equal rights for women, etc. etc. And faith-healing! Especially the doctrine that your child has cancer because you don't have enough faith, or are being punished for some sin in your life. <br /><br />I have seen encroaching power from groups committed to some of these goals, and it shocks me. <br /><br />A cursory glance at Dinesh D'Souza's book Enemy at Home made me aware that most of his basic assumptions about family life need an aggressive response. <br /><br />Not ALL children are against divorce, not ALL Moslem school girls want to wear a headscarf, not ALL Saudi housewives prefer to be driven around by their personal "drivers" rather than get their own driver's license. Who gave D'Souza the right to speak for all the women of the world? <br /><br />I want to see someone challenge his "my momma was fine with patriarchy, so patriarchy is good for women" rhetoric. I feel personally threatened by his views.<br /><br />Steph, <br /><br />In my mind, not enough vocal Christians will publicly take on fundamentalism. I would far rather side with Loftus against D'Souza but many Christians will not, and that gives me the sense that they regard defending Christianity as more important than equal rights for women.Suzanne McCarthyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07033350578895908993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-71310170486176875452009-12-31T14:25:33.312-05:002009-12-31T14:25:33.312-05:00an afterthought: all fundamentalism - both religio...an afterthought: all fundamentalism - both religious and non religious/atheist fundamentalism - needs to be vigorously opposed, and it's important to remember that good Christians do vigorously oppose Christian fundamentalism.stephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02919095308998395424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-37765469289706233042009-12-31T14:15:12.427-05:002009-12-31T14:15:12.427-05:00Dear Hector,
Sorry for the delay, I have been loo...Dear Hector,<br /><br />Sorry for the delay, I have been looking for your book but it seems to have been mislaid in our recent house move. We have several thousand books and quite a few have gone missing. (We do still have your outstanding work on illness and health care in the ancient near east though!)<br /><br />It is of course entirely true that all these presses publish books by religious people but they do publish other books as well. Maurice Casey's books have all been published by SPCK, CUP, T&T Clark, WJK, James Clarke and Routledge. I'm also completely aware that I haven't experienced the extreme divisions in the USA in either New Zealand, Australia or the United Kingdom. However we are aware of American division which is reflected in scholarship and unfortunately American biblical scholarship is often judged as falling within either extreme. I think this is extremely detrimental to the advancement of knowledge. I don't think that division justifies aggression in scholarship though I can see that oppressive fundamentalists in the situation you mention do require vigourous opposition.stephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02919095308998395424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-75109343510274705222009-12-31T13:31:11.249-05:002009-12-31T13:31:11.249-05:00RE: Steph's comments
Actually, the the main th...RE: Steph's comments<br />Actually, the the main thesis of my book, The End of Biblical Studies, is precisely that many of the presses that Steph mentioned are no less religionist<br />than IVP, etc. It is just a DIFFERENT type of religionism. <br /><br />I cite many examples from books published by WJK, OUP, Harvard Press, etc. Note also that SPCK = Society for PROMOTING CHRISTIAN KNOWLEDGE. What would be the reaction if we had a publishing arm for the SOCIETY FOR PROMOTING ATHEIST KNOWLEDGE?<br /><br />Being a Mexican immigrant, I actually think that there is little difference between European and American publishers insofar as they are mostly bibliolatrous to a large degree. The ethnocentrism<br />lies precisely in thinking there is a difference for<br />us who were colonized by Euro-Americans.<br /><br />Besides, many Europeans ARE or were in American universities, and so I am not sure that you can distinguish them so easily (James Barr, E. Schüssler Fiorenza, Krister Stendahl, Helmut Koester, etc.) insofar as bibliolatry is concerned (in other ways you might).<br /><br />I think Steph's view of "aggressiveness" is also partially cultural. Steph may come from an area where secularists are not in direct conflict with biblical fundamentalists very much.<br /><br />Some of us ARE in direct conflict with fundamentalists all the time, whether it is in local governments, school boards, or the national level.<br /><br />We have fundamentalists in our local school boards trying to push literal interpretations of Genesis on our children, and diluting our science educational curricula.<br /><br />We just finished a nightmarish Bush administration,<br />which pumped our legal bureaucracy with graduates from right wing Christian universities and seminaries. <br /><br />That is why credentials do matter. We have seen<br />those Bush appointees, with sham and flimsy degrees, given power over science and legal areas of our government. They have made a mess.<br /><br />Thus, to be non-aggressive in our scholarship (I prefer "activist" scholarship) is itself a political act, which favors the oppressors if you are in the midst of a conflict with fundamentalist oppressors.<br /><br />As I have argued before, much of modern biblical scholarship, is an elite leisure pursuit that differs not much from curling up with a book in a room, while watching humanity suffer because we don't go out and try to change the world through the findings of our scholarship.<br /><br />The British abolitionist movement was successful,<br />in large part, because there were activist scholars<br />such as a Thomas Clarkson who did real research on the slave conditions of his time. He took that knowledge and used it in his activism against slavery. The same with Eric Williams, a brilliant student at Oxford, who led his nation of Trinidad to independence.<br /><br />Thus, I count "aggressiveness" as a virtue, not<br />as a something of which to be ashamed. By<br />"aggressiveness" I don't mean using abusive or violent language-- I do mean trying to challenge more directly those institutions that we think are harmful. <br /><br />So if you mean something else by "aggressiveness," then do let me know, and provides specific<br />examples that you see as "aggressive."<br /><br />If you do not deem fundamentalists as harmful, that is fine. But we have a right to be activist if we do deem religious fundamentalisms of any type as harmful.Dr. Hector Avaloshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10840869326406664177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-89659388833425076642009-12-31T13:26:37.786-05:002009-12-31T13:26:37.786-05:00America, like New Zealand, Australia and the UK (w...America, like New Zealand, Australia and the UK (where I have lived) considers itself a nation. Therefore the term is still ethnocentric. That's beside the point though, we know what I mean. You're limiting your list to American apologetic scholarship.<br /><br />I like Jim Linville as a person and I appreciate his scholarship. Who could possibly not like Jim, John. He doesn't broad brush abuse people and call them names and he doesn't isolate people - even Christians. I don't mind debunking creationism.<br /><br />I don't know what Dawkins is like as a person. He comes across as learned in his own field but not in biblical studies, an area in which he appears arrogant. He isolates many atheists so that alot deny that label.stephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02919095308998395424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-22251589065347634962009-12-31T12:49:27.223-05:002009-12-31T12:49:27.223-05:00And steph, glad you like Jim Linville. I do too. I...And steph, glad you like Jim Linville. I do too. It takes all kinds, right? Even Richard Dawkins.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-65034844606310848782009-12-31T12:48:12.947-05:002009-12-31T12:48:12.947-05:00No, better, Americancentic. We're a diverse et...No, better, <b>Americancentic</b>. We're a diverse ethnic country you know.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-78880128033805946392009-12-31T12:46:58.474-05:002009-12-31T12:46:58.474-05:00steph, I'll admit I'm a bit, well, goeocen...steph, I'll admit I'm a bit, well, <b>goeocentic</b> so thanks for the tip. <br /><br />Does anything you say diminish the scholarship of Prometheus Books? Hector has published in both venues. And so have other authors.<br /><br />I publish there, well, just because they like my work and it's easier to go through them because of they do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-79276453197821424342009-12-31T12:43:40.531-05:002009-12-31T12:43:40.531-05:00http://drjimsthinkingshop.com/2009/12/31/rock-em-s...http://drjimsthinkingshop.com/2009/12/31/rock-em-sockem-bible-bloggers-comments-on-secular-biblical-scholarship-and-the-loftus-west-kaffufle/#comment-1588stephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02919095308998395424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-227412974621823602009-12-31T12:43:28.006-05:002009-12-31T12:43:28.006-05:00When I look at a book from Zondervan, or Baker, or...When I look at a book from Zondervan, or Baker, or IVP, there's a chance that it's not pushing a missionary agenda or grinding an ax against people with other points-of-view. Granted, they've published several books that do precisely that, but many of them have other aims, such as, say, advancing knowledge about the Bible, for the sake of knowledge.<br /><br />When I see a book is from Prometheus, I don't have that same assurance. I'll confess that I've not read every Promotheus book out there, but the ones I have seen have an ax to grind. They may have legitimate points to make, but, please, don't act like I (a reader) should swoon at Loftus because he's published through it!James Patehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14247799389009268470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-46568940856017004732009-12-31T12:42:38.693-05:002009-12-31T12:42:38.693-05:00You've just ethnocentically listed a whole lot...You've just ethnocentically listed a whole lot of american publishers who publish apologetic and very conservative bordering on apologetic 'scholarship'. Most critical Christian scholars publish with T&T Clark, CUP, OUP, Mohr Siebeck, WJK, Equinox, Yale UP, Harvard UP, SCM, SPCK, Leuven UP, Brill and many others.<br /><br />I hope you've read Jim Linville's very sensible approach. I like him alot, I feel safe calling myself an atheist when I think of him. He's not aggressive, just a good critical atheist scholar of the bible and religions with a wicked sense of humour.stephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02919095308998395424noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-4981488731501121912009-12-31T12:32:46.583-05:002009-12-31T12:32:46.583-05:00Sorry if I appeared harsh there. it's just tha...Sorry if I appeared harsh there. it's just that I hear this ill-informed complaint all of the time. Prometheus Books is the premier atheist publisher of our generation, if not the premier atheist publisher ever.<br /><br />If you want to claim that we shouldn't have regard for ideologically driven publishing houses then let's do that with Christian publishers too, all of them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-78861053262762446362009-12-31T12:28:11.300-05:002009-12-31T12:28:11.300-05:00Listen Pate, most Christians publish through ideol...Listen Pate, most Christians publish through ideologically driven publishing houses like IVP, Baker, Zondervan, Crossway, Moody Press, Harvest House, etc.<br /><br />So what are you talking about? What's your problem?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-54940931250863860432009-12-31T12:22:37.886-05:002009-12-31T12:22:37.886-05:00To be honest, I'm not surprised that Luedemann...To be honest, I'm not surprised that Luedemann is a Prometheus author (though, to his credit, he's published through less ideologically-driven publishing houses as well).James Patehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14247799389009268470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-26770631759521580902009-12-31T11:54:44.655-05:002009-12-31T11:54:44.655-05:00Dear J.L.,
If you knew how much snow there is on t...Dear J.L.,<br />If you knew how much snow there is on the ground in Iowa, you would know that I am doing nothing<br />but "chillin." :-)Dr. Hector Avaloshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10840869326406664177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-68755190886463120182009-12-31T11:51:19.153-05:002009-12-31T11:51:19.153-05:00Hector, that was a retort to what I assume is John...Hector, that was a retort to what I assume is John's jab at mockingly suggesting that all religious believers are extremists. In other words, chill out a wee bit.J. L. Wattshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01000798494472742263noreply@blogger.com