tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post596845858322905979..comments2024-03-25T17:35:02.238-04:00Comments on Debunking Christianity: On Dealing With Apostates.Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-43840881493594817682009-12-30T08:24:09.002-05:002009-12-30T08:24:09.002-05:00I am not sure anyone quotes holding, it took me se...I am not sure anyone quotes holding, it took me several hours but after reading one article by him, I refuted ever single argument he made in one.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-77958454596356458342009-12-28T11:09:19.112-05:002009-12-28T11:09:19.112-05:00John,
I would agree with the central thrust of yo...John,<br /><br />I would agree with the central thrust of your point. There really is no positive use for mockery and ridicule. From the other side of the fence, I can tell you most Christians dismiss Dawkins and Hitchens because of the way in which they belittle and malign Christians and Christianity. When they mock and ridicule, we have no desire to further listen to anything coming out of their mouths. It quickly becomes viewed as a personal attack rather than engaging our views and beliefs.<br /><br />And I am quite sure that this is the same when mockery and ridicule come from Christians.<br /><br />I don't think the argument over proper hermeneutic will end anytime soon. Part of this reason is that too many Christians are uneducated about their own beliefs. They read the Chronicles of Narnia, Beth Moore books, Harry Potter, and any other source of literature but never seem to find the time to read the Bible. This is supposed to be their foundation and they don't even know what it says! Until the vast majority of Christians (in the U.S. at least) begin taking the time to become serious about their faith, I am afraid that there will be a continual supply of Christians that do not exemplify proper Christianity.Mr. Hydehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12630620286598393193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-69251172276701125552009-10-14T07:04:42.345-04:002009-10-14T07:04:42.345-04:00Im sick to death of suicide bombs and carnage too ...Im sick to death of suicide bombs and carnage too ismellarat<br /><br />We are a long way away from it all over here where i am ,but it still effects us when watching so many folks lives getting wasted.<br /><br />We just sent a few specialist troups over too to try to help out.What ever helping out actually might be.Gandolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624178234332819107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-79645807951855724722009-10-13T18:01:52.092-04:002009-10-13T18:01:52.092-04:00" Gandolf said...
Some change happening even..." Gandolf said... <br />Some change happening even with some muslims maybe it seems."<br /><br />Geez, how many more suicide bombings will it take, before they realize that Allah loves them? <br /><br />A true believer's work is never done.ismellarathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01798650524118603772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-78282558357757167272009-10-13T03:26:26.322-04:002009-10-13T03:26:26.322-04:00Some change happening even with some muslims maybe...Some change happening even with some muslims maybe it seems.<br /><br />http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1254573498385&pagename=Zone-English-News/NWELayoutGandolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624178234332819107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-72049691177445982832009-10-12T09:28:45.304-04:002009-10-12T09:28:45.304-04:00But, Steve Carr, who are you to say that you won&#...But, Steve Carr, who are you to say that you won't in the next life find out and come to agree with something that's even greater than you're conceiving of now? <br /><br />Maybe you'll agree that the Muslims had it right, and that everyone else's flesh should be burned away and regenerated eternally. How much "greater" can a god get? I'm sure you'll find out what's great soon enough.<br /><br />How small-minded you are! ;-)ismellarathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01798650524118603772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-10047809132785295342009-10-12T09:19:05.383-04:002009-10-12T09:19:05.383-04:00ISMELLARAT
The possibility of God simply not creat...ISMELLARAT<br />The possibility of God simply not creating an eternal Hell seems to have escaped Craig, even with all of his mental gymnastics.<br /><br />CARR<br />This alleged god is supposed to be the greatest conceivable being.<br /><br />If you can even conceive of a being that can create a system where people are not suffering eternally in Hell, then you have disproved the Christian god, who is allegedly the greatest conceivable being.Steven Carrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11983601793874190779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-27233462342091937992009-10-10T18:00:07.942-04:002009-10-10T18:00:07.942-04:00Does WL Craig or any other real apologist ever quo...Does WL Craig or any other <i>real</i> apologist ever quote JP Holding?mikespeirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05397674737999065117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-49937746173897975122009-10-07T01:47:30.076-04:002009-10-07T01:47:30.076-04:00"I want bad things to happen to good people&q..."I want bad things to happen to good people" should be a mandatory bumper sticker for everyone who believes in an eternal Hell.<br /><br />Is that a catchy saying, or what!ismellarathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01798650524118603772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-76397079810073732372009-10-06T17:57:36.319-04:002009-10-06T17:57:36.319-04:00COC, I also still agree with what Craig said here,...COC, I also still agree with what Craig said here, starting at the 22:50 mark:<br /><br />http://www.veritas.org/media/talks/693<br /><br />(The link does work; oddly, I always get a no such page error on the first try, and have to refresh it. And it's probably easiest to download the whole thing and use something that can blow this up to full screen to watch it.)<br /><br />It seems everybody is in the habit of spotlighting the good, and hushing up the bad (and doing the reverse to their opponents). Craig conveniently doesn't mention to the audience here what he, as a consistent Christian, *should* be wishing upon most of those people he stirs up so much sympathy for, after they die.<br /><br />I guess I'd call myself a wishful universalist. I just hope for the best outcome, knowing that I can't prove a thing.ismellarathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01798650524118603772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-92211555093238698482009-10-06T15:23:17.749-04:002009-10-06T15:23:17.749-04:00ismellarat,
Craig had the same impact on me as he...ismellarat,<br /><br />Craig had the same impact on me as he had on you.<br /><br />I realized when reading his debate with Ehrman that I don't agree with many of his assertions.<br /><br />I have come to realize that I am not a Christian by any doctrinal or orthodox standards. My problem is with the concepts of Hell, total depravity and god's wrath.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15657598456196932490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-7209747316745900702009-10-06T09:22:01.361-04:002009-10-06T09:22:01.361-04:00Heather, are you the one who posted a lot here abo...Heather, are you the one who posted a lot here about a year ago under the same name?<br /><br />I think I know the Craig article you read. I credit him with unwittingly encouraging me to take a step backward about 11 years ago. <br /><br />It had hit me like a thunderbolt, that I was supposed to wish an eternal Auschwitz on people, while at the same time having the opposite feelings for them while they were still alive. It was just the damndest thing, and it was Craig who encouraged me to realize that, if I didn't see any bad in traditional Christianity, I was missing something. Thanks, Craig, you sure helped me see that I really was thinking straight on this...<br /><br />Here's the article I think you mean:<br /><br />http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/middle2.html<br /><br />He says he doesn't like it either (is Craig - and every orthodox Christian - unjust, or do they think God is? And doesn't God know what they think of him? Maybe we should all be going to such a Hell.):<br /><br />"No orthodox Christian likes the doctrine of hell or delights in anyone's condemnation. I truly wish that universalism were true, but it is not."<br /><br />But it's the *best* of all possible worlds, you see. Search for the word "possible" there, and you'll see how he explains it.<br /><br />The possibility of God simply not creating an eternal Hell seems to have escaped Craig, even with all of his mental gymnastics.<br /><br />Maybe it will occur to him, some day.ismellarathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01798650524118603772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-54451761823402396672009-10-05T05:51:26.530-04:002009-10-05T05:51:26.530-04:00Stevej said..."Let them call down fire from h...Stevej said..."Let them call down fire from heaven during a debate to demonstrate heaven's sanction of their opinions. Or let them perform some other miracle"<br /><br />I used to be able to click on JP Holding ,which would then lead you to a certain christianity site.<br /><br />On that particular site was a conversion speach of somebody,and amongst what was written it was said to be saved by jesus you needed to be humble.<br /><br />JP Holding has had some very (personal dislike) of John in particular.Infact it almost seems like pure utter hatered.And for awhile i bothered to start to discuss it.Started to point out how could it really be very christian?,i thought its one thing to be a terrible naughty non believer.But i thought surely its a whole different kettle of fish to suggest being a follower of jesus and yet really (personally) hate somebody.<br /><br />After awhile i went back to try to find this conversion message again with the humble quote that i had seen.But no longer could.<br /><br />Wonder if it was a miracle that it seemed to me to disappear?.<br /><br />What i personally think speaks the very very loudest though is that not even one other so called christian seems to be bothered by this personal hatered.Not one has bothered to go talk to him about it.<br /><br />And you can almost bet your bottom dollar quite a large number know its happening.<br /><br />It seems its more important for them to discuss matters with us non believers.<br /><br />Ahhhh the power of the holy spirit ....its full of holes alright.<br /><br />So busy trying to sort everyone else out,it forgets to go clean up its own kitchen.<br /><br />John i know ive said this before but a the risk of sounding like a stuck record.Let me say you dont have to be perfect or right about everything.Specially if these type folks are the ones judging you.<br /><br />We all make mistakes!,it doesnt matter none of us are perfect.Its quite ok to be wrong sometimes.Its normal.<br /><br />Just keep trying to do the best you can and keep learning from any mistakes you make if possible.<br /><br />Just an opinion.Gandolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02624178234332819107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-32744600187607388712009-10-04T09:01:40.661-04:002009-10-04T09:01:40.661-04:00If Elijah is a suitable role model for the treatme...If Elijah is a suitable role model for the treatment of ideological opponents, then it would be laudable to kill them (Elijah slaughtered the priests of Baal). <br /> <br />If Holding or others of his ilk wish to invoke Elijah's example, let them accomplish what Elijah did. Let them call down fire from heaven during a debate to demonstrate heaven's sanction of their opinions. Or let them perform some other miracle, like raising the dead. Then they'd have more legitimate authority to wear Elijah's mantle.<br /><br />By the way, not to nitpick, but I think Exapologist mean Calvin's <i>Geneva,</i> not Vienna. (His comments were spot-on and extremely insightful, BTW.)SteveJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04525881183798559993noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-24913296315852205812009-10-03T13:36:02.238-04:002009-10-03T13:36:02.238-04:00Actually, I disagree. The Voltairean or Bertrand R...Actually, I disagree. The Voltairean or Bertrand Russell-like cynical-approach often backfires, and creates a backlash. <br /><br />The cynical doubter, unbeliever, and atheist--usually an Englishmen who attended some fancy university--doesn't quite understand religious thinking. It's not merely "God exists: true or false," or strictly an empirical matter as Dawkins insists. <br /><br />Even if one agrees there are no arguments which could prove the existence of a monotheistic God (as I do), and takes issue with religious hypocrisy and corruption, that doesn't automatically relegate religion to the dustbin. Cathedrals, Bach, Dostoyevsky say something...Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11567400697675996283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-63011930268149867522009-10-03T10:04:37.665-04:002009-10-03T10:04:37.665-04:00Interestingly enough Jon Stewart's ridicule is...Interestingly enough Jon Stewart's ridicule is matched only by his extreme level of empathy and interpretative charity in discussion. You can tell he cares, and that's helps frame the ridicule in positive light. It's a great balance.<br /><br />BenBenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14479224236264150172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-3841069320521403972008-03-22T10:46:00.000-04:002008-03-22T10:46:00.000-04:00In my observation of a number of internet discussi...In my observation of a number of internet discussion groups, ridicule and berating others is typically used as a way of controlling the discussion. Actually, it would be more accurate to say that it's a way of <I>ending</I> the discussion through stopping the flow of ideas. <BR/><BR/>For many of the more rabid fundamentalists there is a kind of "model" of how religious discussions are supposed to go. What's supposed to happen in their model is that the non-Christian crumbles in the face of their superior wisdom.<BR/><BR/>When that doesn't happen -- when the non-Christian replies with perfectly good and reasonable arguments -- suddenly the fundamentalists have lost control of the discussion. When that happens ridicule is used as a way of trying to discredit the opponent to give the impression that he has nothing of value to offer. In other words, it's a way of trying to reassert control over the discussion.<BR/><BR/>In one discussion group alone I was called a snake, spider, and pig. The typical justification for this was Jesus whipping the money-changers, though I never really got the connection. <BR/><BR/>But it works the same way on the other side. Some years ago I participated in one of these "Jesus is a myth" discussion groups. Discussions there were so tightly controlled that it would have made Stalin proud.<BR/><BR/>One time I a made a rather innocuous positive comment about faith. The list moderators just about went berserk, banned me from posting, and even called me a "zombie-worshiper," which was strange because I hadn't been a Christian for some years.<BR/><BR/>So Christians certainly don't have the market cornered on ridicule and mockery and fear of open discussion.Jim Holmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14854720105702925980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-1038294156492604182007-02-23T15:42:00.000-05:002007-02-23T15:42:00.000-05:00Oddly enough, I actually have the book 'slavery, s...Oddly enough, I actually have the book 'slavery, sabbath, war & women' on my bookshelf at home - and I have read it possibly twice. So it is true Christians do argue about their own set of beliefs - which I find rather healthy. <BR/><BR/>I personally detest the attitude of mocking one's belief system - I find it quite disrespectful in any conversation. (However we all love humor).SocietyVshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10892870801259282254noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-75281937924819984492007-02-23T15:36:00.000-05:002007-02-23T15:36:00.000-05:00**When he writes he uses much less of it. But Crai...**When he writes he uses much less of it. But Craig at his worst is not the kind of thing I wrote about here. ** Oh, I know. :) He's not vile when he speaks. <BR/><BR/>The reason I asked, and I know this is a personal bias, is that his writing and Bloomberg's has always come across as arrogant to me: but I know that's my reaction to their certainty that they have the truth. It's also a reaction to the belief that God is going to send a whole lot of people to hell. I've read arguments from Lane that says this might be the best possible world in that in order for the maximum amount of people to be saved, some had to be sent to hell. I just find that a chilling viewpoint.<BR/><BR/>AGain, though -- I know that's my perception influencing how I see his writing and attitude.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-63959567899578469482007-02-23T13:05:00.000-05:002007-02-23T13:05:00.000-05:00Heather, when Craig writes as a scholar he's diffe...Heather, when Craig writes as a scholar he's different than when he debates. When he debates he uses rhetoric to his advantage to win. When he writes he uses much less of it. But Craig at his worst is not the kind of thing I wrote about here. There are Christians on the web who are spewing forth vomit with everything they write.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-72303705388881208362007-02-23T12:06:00.000-05:002007-02-23T12:06:00.000-05:00John, I think your bio mentioned that you studied ...John, I think your bio mentioned that you studied under William Lane Craig. Would you agree with Touchstone's impression of him?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-33749626323591955972007-02-23T10:23:00.000-05:002007-02-23T10:23:00.000-05:00I think mockery and ridicule is perfectly appropri...I think mockery and ridicule is perfectly appropriate in certain contexts. Voltaire's CANDIDE comes to mind. Not to mention John Stewart's THE DAILY SHOW.<BR/><BR/>Rudeness and misrepresention in the context of a discussion is, of course, another thing altogether--which is what i think you had in mind and on that I agree.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and thanks for your invitation to join DC, John, but I'll have to decline. I don't really feel the need for any formal association with a particular blog at this time. I suppose I might change my mind at some time. But right now I just don't feel the desire to. <BR/><BR/>Thanks, <BR/><BR/>David EDavid B. Ellishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09468191085576922813noreply@blogger.com