tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-212197852024-03-18T09:44:22.723-04:00Debunking ChristianityUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger7398125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-41590621112868827552024-03-18T08:00:00.009-04:002024-03-18T09:43:50.507-04:00I Know What Best Describes a Reasonable Person!<div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: large;">Well, I know an essential characteristic anyway. You want to know what best describes reasonable people? I know.
<br><br>Reasonable people are the ones who accept the results of science. <br><br>
Conversely, unreasonable people are the ones who reject the results of science. Since religious believers (theistic or otherwise) believe in at least one doctrine that goes against the consensus of scientists working in their fields, then religious believers are not reasonable people to believe them.<br><br>
Agnostics are also not reasonable people by the same standard. For by claiming not to know about a specific doctrine that has been shown to be false by science, they are not reasonable either. Saying they don’t know, when science knows, is to be a science denier. </span></div><a href="http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2024/03/i-know-what-best-describes-reasonable.html#more"></a><div class="blogger-post-footer"><script type="text/javascript"><!--
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<a href=" " target="blank"> </a>
<div><b><span style="font-family: times;">Many of the devout would be shocked at what Jesus would do</span></b><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh6esLeb-md5-qJQn3MV8UmjXx9O3PnJOx0wh5FGhDlzJRAF6Prc0FqnLc959h-PrEVmhpxtWXdRNENDcT8kENhjy_XmLOaZFaF30Bpq742GwPDumm3D-gAF9M4-MYQCEw5dB_8yCkOWKnuO-xGwpgOQ-NEmtgOJrVTtR-so6Fe0_BCjM5djRWsFw/s695/CCKQ%20No%20173,%20Carrier,%20The%20gospel%20writers%20are%20mythographers,%20novelists,%20propagandists.jpg" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="695" data-original-width="500" height="400" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh6esLeb-md5-qJQn3MV8UmjXx9O3PnJOx0wh5FGhDlzJRAF6Prc0FqnLc959h-PrEVmhpxtWXdRNENDcT8kENhjy_XmLOaZFaF30Bpq742GwPDumm3D-gAF9M4-MYQCEw5dB_8yCkOWKnuO-xGwpgOQ-NEmtgOJrVTtR-so6Fe0_BCjM5djRWsFw/w288-h400/CCKQ%20No%20173,%20Carrier,%20The%20gospel%20writers%20are%20mythographers,%20novelists,%20propagandists.jpg" width="288"></a><b><span style="font-family: times;"><br></span></b><span style="font-family: times;"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family: times;">I suspect most devout believers adore their Jesus, as he is portrayed in stained glass, great art, hymns (e.g., </span><i style="font-family: times;">What a Friend We Have in Jesus</i><span style="font-family: times;">)—and, of course, how is he lovingly described from the pulpit. Thus they skip careful study of the gospels. Years ago, when I was a pastor, it was a tiny minority of the congregation that attended my Bible study classes. When folks do study the gospels carefully/critically, they may notice things that seem farfetched. How many of us have heard the voice of god booming from the sky? That seems a mark of fantasy literature. In Mark, the first gospel written, this is how Jesus’ baptism is described (1:10-11): “</span><span class="text" style="font-family: times;">And just as he was coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens torn apart and the Spirit descending like a dove upon him.</span><span class="apple-converted-space" style="font-family: times;"> </span><span class="text" style="font-family: times;"></span><span id="en-NRSVUE-24224" style="font-family: times;">And a voice came from the heavens, ‘You are my Son, the Beloved, with you I am well pleased.’”</span></div></span></div><a href="http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2024/03/more-jesus-quotes-christians-could-do.html#more"></a><div class="blogger-post-footer"><script type="text/javascript"><!--
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<blockquote><b>David Corner </b>received his PhD from the University of California at Santa Barbara. He’s a Senior Lecturer in the Department of Philosophy of California State University, Sacramento. He is the author of The Philosophy of Miracles.</blockquote>
I asked him what he thought of my chapter 3, on <b>Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Evidence.</b> He said to me:
<blockquote>I am reading your chapter, but I have to teach tomorrow so I won't finish until at least Tuesday. Looks pretty good so far, though I'm shocked at how poor some of the arguments are that you are criticizing. I don't even read that stuff... but it's a good thing someone is. You are doing a good service. </blockquote>
I asked him what he believes. </span></div><a href="http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2024/03/about-david-corner-author-of-chapter-1.html#more"></a><div class="blogger-post-footer"><script type="text/javascript"><!--
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<div><b><span style="font-family: times;">He hasn’t been paying much attention to planet Earth<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEghA7GS_ElPKVpGb-ODXrTxBAFhI0uc1tdk5NgljKr6DIxuwysZKny1nkQmhwHHkOLy1iRqSkT7MESZdNkk8mls4ATnuoC785c0zmhOEvVv-feIjOu8TrK9wIOkeb0dDMwkxCvqBGi4JK1sOSdX5D8fL-wy9P8qyxh96ix7dUhNgdQXhdqQJxEcgw/s687/CCKQ%20No%20773,%20Loftus,%20The%20evidential%20problem%20of%20horrendous%20suffering%20is%20one%20of%20the%20most%20powerful%20refutations%20of%20the%20theistic%20God.jpg" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="687" data-original-width="500" height="400" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEghA7GS_ElPKVpGb-ODXrTxBAFhI0uc1tdk5NgljKr6DIxuwysZKny1nkQmhwHHkOLy1iRqSkT7MESZdNkk8mls4ATnuoC785c0zmhOEvVv-feIjOu8TrK9wIOkeb0dDMwkxCvqBGi4JK1sOSdX5D8fL-wy9P8qyxh96ix7dUhNgdQXhdqQJxEcgw/w291-h400/CCKQ%20No%20773,%20Loftus,%20The%20evidential%20problem%20of%20horrendous%20suffering%20is%20one%20of%20the%20most%20powerful%20refutations%20of%20the%20theistic%20God.jpg" width="291"></a></div><br></span></b></div><div><b><span style="font-family: times;"><br></span></b><span style="font-family: times;">When anyone says, “Can you <b><i>prove</i></b> God <b><i>doesn’t</i></b> exist?” I am tempted to reply, “Just look around you. What do you see?” Answers from the devout might include, “Beautiful sunsets, glorious flowers, majestic mountains—-how wonderful—this is my Father’s world!” But take a closer look: the god who supposedly engineered the marvels that prompt believers to sing “how great thou art”—isn’t that the same god who made huge blunders? <i>Just look around you</i>, they’re so easy to spot. One of the great curses on humankind has been mental illnesses, which have plagued us for millennia, causing horrible suffering. Couldn’t our brains have been better designed? Then there are thousands of genetic diseases: that newborn baby who looks “so perfect” may be programed by his/her genes to a life of pain and disability. Diseases spread by microbes also don’t make sense if there was an Intelligent Designer. Millions of people died in agony during the Black Plague in the 14<sup>th</sup> century, with no understanding as to its cause. The church was clueless as well, proclaiming the bad news that the plague was god’s punishment for sin. Moreover, marveling at the beauties of the natural world is misplaced when we realize how much suffering and death have been caused by hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, earthquakes, volcanoes, tsunamis. Why would a good god who cares about humans have placed us in such a brutal environment? How can it be argued that he’s paying attention? Maybe he took off for another galaxy a long time ago.</span></div></span></div><a href="http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2024/03/did-good-christian-god-relocate-to.html#more"></a><div class="blogger-post-footer"><script type="text/javascript"><!--
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="layout-grid-mode: char; line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; mso-layout-grid-align: none; tab-stops: 2.25in; text-align: justify; text-autospace: none; text-indent: .5in;"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal;"><span style="color: black; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";"> </span></b><span style="color: black; font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">David Hume </span><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">(1711-1776) offered some good philosophical
arguments against miracles that still resonate today. His arguments focused on
the unreliability of<span style="color: black;"> human testimony on behalf of
miracles. He did not live in a technological age like ours with modern
forensics that include blood analysis, with tests that can determine one’s
type, and detects diseases, poison, drugs and alcohol. We also have x-ray
technology, DNA evidence, CAT scans, dash cams, and security cameras at
convenience stores, on street intersections, and neighborhood homes. Especially
noteworthy are the ubiquitous number of cell phones that give us immediate
access to the police by a 911 call, cameras that can capture any event on video,
and GPS tracking capability showing where we are at any given time. So Hume didn’t
have the capability we do to establish miracles, or debunk them. </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">In
our day the <i>James Randi Educational Foundation</i> (JREF)<b> </b>offered a
one-million-dollar prize “to anyone who can show, under proper observing
conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event.”
From 1964, when it first offered such a challenge, until 2015 when they stopped
doing it, no challenger had even gotten past the preliminary test.<a href="#_edn1" name="_ednref1" style="mso-endnote-id: edn1;" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">[1]</span></span></span></span></a>
That should settle the question of miracles. If not, why not?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">One
might ask why we even need philosophical arguments. Why not just teach how
science works and why the methods of science are the best we have to get at the
truth? In a real sense we don’t need philosophical arguments, per se, including
those from Hume.<a href="#_edn2" name="_ednref2" style="mso-endnote-id: edn2;" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">[2]</span></span></span></span></a>
However, given so many possible existential threats to life on our planet, we
should do everything we can to reach people who value blind faith over
scientific evidence.<a href="#_edn3" name="_ednref3" style="mso-endnote-id: edn3;" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">[3]</span></span></span></span></a> So
practically speaking, some believers might be attentive to listen to Hume,
rather than to Darwin, Sagan, Shermer, Dawkins and others.<a href="#_edn4" name="_ednref4" style="mso-endnote-id: edn4;" title=""><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">[4]</span></span></span></span></a>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-align: justify; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman";">One
of the best philosophical arguments that can help believers acknowledge the
value of sufficient evidence, objective evidence, scientific evidence, is found
in my book, the <i>Outsider Test for Faith</i>.<span class="MsoEndnoteReference">
<a href="#_edn5" name="_ednref5" style="mso-endnote-id: edn5;" title=""><span style="mso-special-character: footnote;"><span class="MsoEndnoteReference"><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman","serif"; font-size: 14.0pt; line-height: 115%; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language: EN-US;">[5]</span></span></span></a></span>
It challenges them to doubt their own culturally indoctrinated childhood faith
for perhaps the first time, just as if they never heard of it before. It calls
on them to require of their own religious faith what they already require of
the religious faith’s they reject. It forces them to rigorously demand logical
consistency with their doctrines along with sufficient evidence for their faith,
just as they already demand of the religions they reject. <span></span></span></p><a href="http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2024/03/of-miracles-in-defense-of-david-hume.html#more"></a><div class="blogger-post-footer"><script type="text/javascript"><!--
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</script></div>John W. Loftushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07167826997171207256noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-6797557038410855232024-03-02T09:02:00.001-05:002024-03-02T15:37:59.052-05:00My Paper on "God and Horrendous Suffering" Has Been Published<div class="separator" style="clear: both;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhGCQ6dYBHDgr3XICJneApL9JiZCb6CIqnA-vb1j9IdmExSECJQUhaD-9JyT3Bd71rhgJyU2_JO4Uq-Hm6v4EDJrpC-0eFFZYo1dByXcPZO3TeBql2Elii1p8yx2SBxMEjgIeQBvvuYufeio9RyDiGI9FQsTUHMrltFPJAzRghlMhuuHfl-zZpqtQ/s1722/Screenshot_20240302_005307_Samsung%20Internet.jpg" style="clear: left; display: block; float: left; padding: 1em 0px; text-align: center;"><img alt="" border="0" data-original-height="1722" data-original-width="1079" height="247" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhGCQ6dYBHDgr3XICJneApL9JiZCb6CIqnA-vb1j9IdmExSECJQUhaD-9JyT3Bd71rhgJyU2_JO4Uq-Hm6v4EDJrpC-0eFFZYo1dByXcPZO3TeBql2Elii1p8yx2SBxMEjgIeQBvvuYufeio9RyDiGI9FQsTUHMrltFPJAzRghlMhuuHfl-zZpqtQ/w155-h247/Screenshot_20240302_005307_Samsung%20Internet.jpg" width="155" /></a></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: large;"> </span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-family: inherit; font-size: large;">My paper on "God and Horrendous Suffering", with the same title as my book, has just been published by <a href="https://infidels.org/kiosk/article/god-and-horrendous-suffering/">Internet Infidels</a>. My thanks to Executive Director and Editor-in-Chief Keith Augustine, for making it happen!
<br /><br />
This is a short, sharable, powerful paper on an issue that has largely been ignored by analytical philosophers, who have focused instead on the logical problem of evil, then on the probabilistic problem of evil. It reveals the ugly underbelly of theistic worship and praise of a monstrous a god.</span></div><div class="blogger-post-footer"><script type="text/javascript"><!--
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</script></div>John W. Loftushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07167826997171207256noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-10885900394271537992024-03-01T11:08:00.000-05:002024-03-01T11:08:35.121-05:00Horrendous Suffering Caused by—Wait for It—the Church <div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: large;">
<a href=" " target="blank"> </a>
<div><b><span style="font-family: times;">When you're sure God is your boss, others can take a big hit <div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi_5zASVTgtgOWQ7sIjEl7wIFF9uuPMwZ_nD50qrNgddPnVTTwstipIHnnd9gk-REEIdBXNibQSKFWI0kQziEG75gzWSZIo84EbKHTnOHG7vxDykAeA3m84O0fUkh1-vihaj8Wf87kDTP0vUnsqKHGF5R05MSUp7Jhde69UlCfRZt7w0slKLTj8YQ/s518/CCKQ%20No%20772,%20Ellerbe,%20The%20Church%20had%20devastating%20impact%20upon%20society%20%20.jpg" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="500" data-original-width="518" height="386" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi_5zASVTgtgOWQ7sIjEl7wIFF9uuPMwZ_nD50qrNgddPnVTTwstipIHnnd9gk-REEIdBXNibQSKFWI0kQziEG75gzWSZIo84EbKHTnOHG7vxDykAeA3m84O0fUkh1-vihaj8Wf87kDTP0vUnsqKHGF5R05MSUp7Jhde69UlCfRZt7w0slKLTj8YQ/w400-h386/CCKQ%20No%20772,%20Ellerbe,%20The%20Church%20had%20devastating%20impact%20upon%20society%20%20.jpg" width="400"></a></div><br></span></b></div><div><span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-family: times;"><b><br></b></span></span><span style="font-family: times;">Two of the riskiest things Christians can do—from the standpoint of preserving and protecting their faith: (1) Read/study the gospels carefully, critically, with curiosity fully engaged, (2) Read/study Christian history, i.e., what has been done in the name of Jesus over the centuries. There’s a pretty good chance that faith will be abandoned when this kind of homework is done. The clergy know that there are 1,001 embarrassing Bible verses, so many of which are in the gospels—so these are not preached from the pulpit. But it’s not hard to figure out that Jesus fails to qualify as a great moral teacher, based on <b><i><a href="https://www.badthingsjesustaught.com/292-bad-things-jesus-said/" target="_blank">so much of the Jesus-script</a></i></b> we find in the gospel accounts.</span></div></span></div><a href="http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2024/03/horrendous-suffering-caused-bywait-for.html#more"></a><div class="blogger-post-footer"><script type="text/javascript"><!--
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</script></div>David Madisonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13102045104265897904noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-39191402434636740742024-02-29T17:50:00.008-05:002024-02-29T21:11:07.714-05:00Some comments on Hume and miracles<div style="text-align: left;"><span style="font-size: large;">
<h3 id="comment-threads-are-easier-to-resurrect-than-corpses">Comment
threads are easier to resurrect than corpses</h3>
<p>In his re-post of February 26, 2024 (<a
href="https://www.debunking-christianity.com/2018/10/what-is-hume-doing-in-his-essay-of.html"><em>What
is Hume Doing In His Essay “Of Miracles”?</em></a>), John W. Loftus
asks:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>So let me put it to my readers. What would it take for you to believe
a miracle had taken place given natural law and the fact you have never
previously experienced a miracle nor anyone else you know (that is true,
right?) What kind of miracle would it have to be? Let’s say one day a
man’s arm was blown off and the next day it had regrown. It’s never
going to happen, that’s for sure. If someone claimed it did, would you
believe it was a magic trick of some kind? How about a virgin having a
baby without any male sperm? How about someone telling you s/he heard
god’s voice? What about YOUR hearing a god’s voice? What of someone
coming back to life after being embalmed at the morgue?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>The original article appeared several years ago; apparently as a
result of that, the comments below the re-post article are closed. So
that we may <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift_Every_Voice_and_Sing"><em>Lift
Every Voice and …</em></a> comment, I’m posting a reply article, which
will have the welcome side effect of starting a new discussion
thread.</p>
<p>Note that this business of miracles has been beaten to death in many
books, articles, and blog posts, so it would be a miracle if anything I
write is either original, comprehensive, final, or perhaps even correct.
But maybe something here will be useful to someone. Just because
everything’s in libraries doesn’t mean we all know all of it. And as
always if you spot a goof, correct me.</p>
<h3
id="the-arrow-of-time---one-of-the-ways-to-distinguish-the-mundane-from-the-miraculous">The
arrow of time - one of the ways to distinguish the mundane from the
miraculous</h3>
<h4 id="reality-is-kind-of-a-one-direction-concert">Reality is kind of a
<em>One Direction</em> concert</h4>
<p>So, what would it take for me to believe a miracle had taken place?
Two of John’s hypotheticals involve something like reversals of the <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_of_time">arrow of time</a>.
There are many natural processes which we only ever observe moving in
one direction. If you were to record such a one-way process as a motion
picture, you could replay the event forwards or backwards. The backwards
replay would then appear jarringly unnatural. For example, imagine
someone’s arm exploding, and then un-exploding. Things sometimes
explode, but they do not then un-explode. Similarly, we could record a
person dying and then being embalmed by an undertaker, but we never
observe that process reversing itself: a person being un-embalmed and
then resurrected. Cremating the corpse would make for an even more
dramatically impossible backwards replay, as that would require the
widely scattered combustion products to coalesce back and un-combust
themselves to reconstitute the corpse, which would then re-animate. (As
an aside, the <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics">cryonics</a> movement
rests on the premise that super-duper technology of the future will be
able to re-animate frozen corpses and repair whatever diseases or
accidents killed them. If you’re skeptical about that you’ve got lots of
company.)</p>
<p>Similarly, we can videorecord a baker making bread. The backwards
replay would show the loaf of bread un-baking back into dough and the
dough un-mixing back into the original ingredients. If we ran it farther
back, we’d see the flour traveling back to the store, and then to the
mill, and un-milling itself back into wheat, which would then un-grow
back into carbon dioxide, water, soil nutrients, and the wheat
seeds.</p>
<p>The arrow of time happens to be a paradox. According to the Wikipedia
article:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>The arrow of time paradox was originally recognized in the 1800s for
gases (and other substances) as a discrepancy between microscopic and
macroscopic description of thermodynamics / statistical Physics: at the
microscopic level physical processes are believed to be either entirely
or mostly time-symmetric: if the direction of time were to reverse, the
theoretical statements that describe them would remain true. Yet at the
macroscopic level it often appears that this is not the case: there is
an obvious direction (or flow) of time.</p>
</blockquote>
<h3 id="entropy-as-an-arrow-of-time">Entropy as an arrow of time</h3>
<h4
id="shot-through-the-heart-and-clausius-is-to-blame-he-gave-the-heat-death-of-the-universe-a-bad-name">Shot
through the heart, and Clausius is to blame; he gave the heat death of
the universe a bad name</h4>
<p>We can think of <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_as_an_arrow_of_time">entropy
as an arrow of time</a>. One way to think about this is in terms of
probability: everything that happens is an “attempt” by the universe to
push itself into a more probable (or more disordered) state. Local
excursions into lower probability (higher order, lower entropy) are
possible, but they must be somehow coupled to larger offsetting
increases in entropy elsewhere. A classic example is the evolution of
life on Earth, which represents a substantial increase in order. It was
driven mostly by the much larger decrease in order in the Sun as it
consumed its nuclear fuel, unleashing solar energy which was then
harnessed by the mechanisms of mutation and natural section. This
decrease in order manifested largely as nuclei in the Sun transmuting
along the <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_binding_energy">curve of
binding energy</a>. The evolution of life also depended on <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_tectonics">plate tectonics</a>
which is driven largely by the decay of heavy radionuclides inside the
Earth, as they approach the same spot on that curve of binding energy
from the upper end. Those heavy radionuclides in turn <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium#Origin">originated</a> in
earlier <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova">supernovae</a>
and <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_star_merger">neutron
star mergers</a>.</p>
<p>(And sorry if I upset fans of <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Clausius">Rudolf Clausius</a>
and/or <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Give_Love_a_Bad_Name">Bon
Jovi</a> and/or the English language with my terrible puns. Sticklers
might protest that Lord Kelvin is more to blame for the <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe">heat
death of the universe</a>.)</p>
<h3 id="the-second-law-why-anything-happens-at-all">The second law: why
anything happens at all</h3>
<p>In the Preface to his book <a
href="https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6695182-the-laws-of-thermodynamics"><em>The
Laws of Thermodynamics: A Very Short Introduction</em></a>, Peter Atkins
introduces the four laws of thermodynamics (<strong>emphasis</strong>
mine):</p>
<blockquote>
<p>The mighty handful consists of four laws, with the numbering starting
inconveniently at zero and ending at three. The first two laws (the
‘zeroth’ and the ‘first’) introduce two familiar but nevertheless
enigmatic properties, the temperature and the energy. The third of the
four (the ‘second law’) introduces what many take to be an even more
elusive property, the entropy, but which I hope to show is easier to
comprehend than the seemingly more familiar properties of temperature
and energy. <strong>The second law is one of the all-time great laws of
science, for it illuminates why anything</strong> — anything from the
cooling of hot matter to the formulation of a thought — <strong>happens
at all</strong>. The fourth of the laws (the ‘third law’) has a more
technical role, but rounds out the structure of the subject and both
enables and foils its applications. Although the third law establishes a
barrier that prevents us from reaching the absolute zero of temperature,
of becoming absolutely cold, we shall see that there is a bizarre and
attainable mirror world that lies below zero.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Given that the second law is why anything happens at all (as Atkins
puts it), demonstrable violations of the second law might be strong
candidates for miracles. No such violation has ever been reliably
observed in the roughly 400 years of <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science#Scientific_Revolution_and_birth_of_New_Science">modern
science</a>. (The period of modern science is my focus because that’s
when scientists have had an exponentially increasing capacity to detect,
recognize, and record such violations of natural law, if any were to
occur.) That’s how natural “laws” get to be called laws: they appear to
be exceptionless. Thousands of scientists make millions of observations
and nobody can demonstrate the “law” to admit exceptions. Then the
engineers and industrialists join the party by stamping out millions or
billions of artifacts made possible by the laws, and all of them appear
to obey the laws as well. Then there is evolution, which mindlessly
solved some molecular problems over a billion years ago, and the
resulting genes and proteins have been “conserved” from yeast to humans.
That means that at no point were the laws ever violated by enough to
erase the adaptive advantages of those genes and proteins, which would
have interrupted the <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_life_(biology)">Tree of
Life</a>. The laws of physics and chemistry that dictate the behavior of
biomolecules have held sufficiently well since at least back to the <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_universal_common_ancestor">last
universal common ancestor</a>.</p>
<h3 id="would-you-believe-a-miracle-if-you-saw-it">Would you believe a
miracle if you saw it?</h3>
<p>Nobody has ever reliably demonstrated a violation of the second law,
but suppose someone did. That leads to John’s thought question:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>If someone claimed [that an exploded arm unexploded or grew back],
would you believe it was a magic trick of some kind?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Skepticism would be my starting hypothesis. I’m aware of the history
of failed attempts to violate the second law, such as with <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion">perpetual motion
machines</a>, <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-fuelled_car">water-fueled
cars</a>, and so on. As Hume famously pointed out in his essay <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Of_Miracles"><em>Of
Miracles</em></a>, violations of natural law appear to be so improbable
that almost any alternative explanation for our observation of a
supposed miracle which does not violate natural law is more likely to be
true.</p>
<p>I would certainly need more than someone’s claim! I would need
evidence comparable in strength to the evidence that World War II
happened.</p>
<h3 id="we-are-smarter-than-me">We are smarter than me</h3>
<p>I certainly wouldn’t set myself up as the final authority on what I’m
seeing. For example, I’ve seen videos of <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close-up_magic">close-up magic</a>
by <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Blaine">David Blaine</a>
and others. Some of what they do looks to me like miracles, but I know
they are just doing tricks that obey natural laws and fool my
perceptions. Rather, I would rely on the entire community of scientists,
magicians, skeptics, journalists, and so on to vet a miracle claim for
me. For example, the <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Dollar_Paranormal_Challenge">Randi
prize</a> went unclaimed for over 50 years. If anyone had claimed it, I
wouldn’t have needed to examine the claim for myself, given that the
winner would probably have become a household name and probably would
have started a whole new field of inquiry, with practical spin-offs
galore. A real-life <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogwarts">Hogwarts School of
Witchcraft and Wizardry</a> would likely spring up in no time around the
trick - if it were <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproducibility">reproducible</a>.
But as Richard Carrier and others have pointed out, if a “supernatural”
phenomenon turned out to be reproducible, then it would satisfy one of
the necessary conditions to be a natural phenomenon, and the result
might be that it would get incorporated into the rest of science.
(Reproducibility is among the foundations of the <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method">scientific
method</a>.) In the past, seemingly magical phenomena like electricity,
magnetism, and radioactivity were eventually shown to be reproducible,
whereupon they became part of science.</p>
<h3 id="do-miracles-have-to-be-one-offs">Do miracles have to be
one-offs?</h3>
<p>For a miracle to remain a miracle then, it might have to be
irreproducible, and that creates all sorts of problems. One of the
strongest forms of evidence for the plausibility of a phenomenon is
being able to observe it or elicit it again under known conditions. If a
miracle is a one-off, then we would lose the strongest argument for its
plausibility. We might be left wondering if it were just some sort of a
glitch, with no clear way to resolve that. We would only have the
reliability of the records of that one event - and that reliability
tends to decay over time, as memories fade, the original witnesses die
off and can no longer be cross-examined, libraries full of documents get
sacked and burned, physical books wear out, and so on.</p>
<h3 id="alleged-reproducibility-in-the-bible">Alleged reproducibility in
the bible</h3>
<p>Reproducibility of a sort sneaks into the bible. The books of the
bible were written over a span of several centuries, and the times they
purport to describe cover even more centuries. But throughout all that
time, according to the bible, miracles were almost a dime a dozen. In
all the bible stories involving people from Genesis to the Acts of the
Apostles, it’s just one miracle after another. Reading the bible is not
unlike reading the <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter"><em>Harry
Potter</em></a> series with its spell-casting and wizardry and trampling
of natural law underfoot. Perhaps it’s no coincidence that both of these
domains of fiction enjoy such enduring popularity. Reality kind of
sucks, since that pesky second law constantly works against us. Few
people get everything they want just handed to them. Instead we have to
work hard to temporarily and locally hold back the forces of decay.
Everybody wants a shortcut, a magical way to “manifest” the goodies we
want. The so-called “New Thought” <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_attraction_(New_Thought)">law
of attraction</a> is the same kind of something-for-nothing <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil">snake oil</a> that nearly
every religion has always sold to the gullible.</p>
<h3
id="presupposing-naturalism-the-moses-and-red-sea-example">Presupposing
naturalism; the Moses and Red Sea example</h3>
<p>John summarizes Levine (from <a
href="https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9086919-the-cambridge-companion-to-miracles"><em>The
Cambridge Companion to Miracles</em></a>):</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Part I presupposes naturalism, Levine says. Philosophers like him,
who rule out the possibility of miracles “are in effect presupposing or
else arguing for a thoroughgoing naturalism. Hence, Hume’s empiricism
commits him to naturalism, and if that goes unrecognized, his <em>a
priori</em> argument in Part I of his essay against the possibility of
justified belief in miracles is impossible to follow.” (p. 292). All one
has to admit is that “naturalism is possibly false.” Once this is
admitted “miracles are possible.” (p. 292).</p>
</blockquote>
<p>John then quotes Levine directly (emphasis mine):</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Hume is thus constrained by his empiricism in such a way that had he
been on the shore of the Red Sea with Moses, and had the Red Sea crashed
to a close the moment the last Israelite was safe, Hume would still be
constrained by his <strong>principles</strong> to deny that what was
witnessing was a miracle (p. 298).</p>
</blockquote>
<p>There’s a tricky point about “principles” here - are we talking about
principles, as in a prior commitment (an axiom, a presupposition, etc.),
or are we talking about prior experience (an inductive conclusion)? See
for example Richard Carrier’s <a
href="https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/16193"><em>Naturalism Is
Not an Axiom of the Sciences but a Conclusion of Them</em></a> and <a
href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225102165_In_defense_of_naturalism"><em>In
defense of naturalism</em></a> by Gregory W. Dawes. I confess to not
having read enough of Hume or Levine to know whether Hume actually made
the mistake that Levine appears to charge Hume with having made, but I
don’t think that matters very much unless we’re trying to get past peer
review, in which case we need all those attributional ducks in a row.
Carrier and Dawes warn against this very mistake. Just read Carrier and
Dawes and don’t make the same mistake yourself!</p>
<p>As to the Red Sea example given, I think Hume was in something like
the same position with regard to most of what we now understand to
constitute modern science. For example, during Hume’s life, nobody had a
clue about <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_tectonics">plate
tectonics</a> (and thus why there are mountains, volcanoes, and even
land above sea level at all); nor did anyone have a satisfying natural
explanation for biodiversity; nor did anyone know how the stars shine
(that had to wait for <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Bethe">Hans Bethe</a> in 1938);
nor what a virus was; and on and on. Everywhere that Hume looked he saw
candidate miracles, as far as anyone knew at the time. Given Hume’s lack
of understanding of the physical mechanisms to explain the wonders he
saw, his primary fall-back seems to have been regularity. For example,
he didn’t know how the stars shine, but he saw that they always shine.
Therefore, the shining stars didn’t constitute a miracle for Hume, even
though a satisfying natural explanation lay centuries in the future.</p>
<p>Further, it’s worth recalling that the Moses and Red Sea example is a
pure hypothetical, given that archaeologists and historians who aren’t
Christian fundamentalists have accepted that the whole Exodus account is
almost certainly fictional. See for example <a
href="https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22581434-did-moses-exist"><em>Did
Moses Exist?: The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver</em></a> and <a
href="https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/169479.The_Bible_Unearthed"><em>The
Bible Unearthed: Archaeology’s New Vision of Ancient Israel and the
Origins of Its Sacred Texts</em></a>. The Moses and Red Sea example is
as likely to have actually happened as the successful spell-casting in
<em>Harry Potter</em>.</p>
<h3 id="further-reading">Further reading</h3>
<p>For more on the impossibility claims of science, see <a
href="https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1851834.A_Physicist_s_Guide_to_Skepticism"><em>A
Physicist’s Guide to Skepticism: Applying Laws of Physics to
Faster-Than-Light Travel, Psychic Phenomena, Telepathy, Time Travel,
UFOs, and Other Pseudoscientific Claims</em></a> by Milton A. Rothman.
If I were King of the World, I would require the people who reject the
impossibility claims of science to live without the technological
goodies made possible by science. That is, I would require the science
deniers to live according to their professed beliefs. Among Christians,
it seems that only the Amish minority comes close to such consistency of
behavior with belief.</p>
<p>To understand the difference between “impossible” and the merely
improbable, see <a
href="https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17934639-the-improbability-principle"><em>The
Improbability Principle: Why Coincidences, Miracles, and Rare Events
Happen Every Day</em></a> by David J. Hand.</p>
<p>For more on miracles, see (of course) the anthology John W. Loftus
edited after his original blog post: <a
href="https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/48574736-the-case-against-miracles"><em>The
Case Against Miracles</em></a>.</p>
<p>For more on <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hume">Hume</a>, see Hume’s
oeuvre. If that’s too ambitious, start with <a
href="https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/567931.Hume"><em>Hume: A Very
Short Introduction</em></a> by <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._J._Ayer">A. J. Ayer</a>, himself
a prominent philosopher of the 20th century.</p>
<p>For the prior (and rather massive) blog activity and discussion
history about these topics on Debunking Christianity, follow the
labels.</p>
</span></div><div class="blogger-post-footer"><script type="text/javascript"><!--
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</script></div>Daniel Mocsnyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14793894169397995832noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-75219703353222970892024-02-26T12:08:00.000-05:002024-02-26T12:08:27.385-05:00What is Hume Doing In His Essay “Of Miracles”?<div style="text-align: justify;"><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-size: large;"> </span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-family: "times new roman" , "serif"; font-size: 14.0pt;">I'm writing a paper on David Hume so I'm republishing this. Enjoy! <br><br>
Much of the scholarship having to do with Hume’s argument against miracles has to do with trying to understand it. Philosopher Michael Levine claims Part I of Hume’s essay is an "<i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">a priori"</i> case against miracles </span></span><span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-family: "times new roman" , "serif"; font-size: 14.0pt;">(</span></span><span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-family: "times new roman" , "serif"; font-size: 14.0pt;"><a href="https://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Companion-Miracles-Companions-Religion/dp/0521728517/ref=as_li_ss_tl?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1538842302&sr=1-1&keywords=cambridge+companion+to+miracles&linkCode=ll1&tag=wwwdebunkingc-20&linkId=9ebb81bfbc78eb5c22703123edd0c58a&language=en_US" target="blank">The Cambridge Companion to Miracles</a>, </span></span><span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-family: "times new roman" , "serif"; font-size: 14.0pt;">p. 302)</span></span><span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-family: "times new roman" , "serif"; font-size: 14.0pt;"> based on considerations of natural law before there's a miracle claim--</span></span><span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-family: "times new roman" , "serif"; font-size: 14.0pt;">that the evidence of natural law outweighs any testimony to a miracle--whereas Part II is an <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">a posteriori</i> case against miracles, “even if miracles have occurred.” (p. 293). </span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-family: "times new roman" , "serif"; font-size: 14.0pt;">About Hume’s principal argument in Part I, Levine says “it fails” (p. 296) as an “unsuccessful” (p. 292) “superfluous” (p. 302) “misadventure” (p. 292). “It is a gloss for understanding the underlying supposition that one cannot have an ‘impression’ of a supernatural event” (p. 302). This underlying empiricist supposition is a theme of Hume’s, in which he argues we don’t have empirical sense impressions of ‘cause and effect’ or any divine activity, or the self for that matter, which is nothing but a bundle of sensations. So “Given his view that divine activity is impossible to know, Hume’s argument in Part I is in a sense superfluous” (p. 302).</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-family: "times new roman" , "serif"; font-size: 14.0pt;">Part I presupposes naturalism, Levine says. Philosophers like him, who rule out the possibility of miracles “are in effect presupposing or else arguing for a thoroughgoing naturalism. Hence, Hume’s empiricism commits him to naturalism, and if that goes unrecognized, his <i style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal;">a priori</i> argument in Part I of his essay against the possibility of justified belief in miracles is impossible to follow.” (p. 292). All one has to admit is that “naturalism is possibly false.” Once this is admitted “miracles are possible.” (p. 292).</span></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="line-height: normal; margin-bottom: .0001pt; margin-bottom: 0in; margin-left: .5in; margin-right: 0in; margin-top: 0in; text-indent: .5in;"><span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-family: "times new roman" , "serif"; font-size: 14.0pt;">Hume is thus constrained by his empiricism in such a way that had he been on the shore of the Red Sea with Moses, and had the Red Sea crashed to a close the moment the last Israelite was safe, Hume would still be constrained by his principles to deny that what was witnessing was a miracle (p. 298).</span></span><br>
</div></div><a href="http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2018/10/what-is-hume-doing-in-his-essay-of.html#more"></a><div class="blogger-post-footer"><script type="text/javascript"><!--
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</script></div>John W. Loftushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07167826997171207256noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-88349421810836546542024-02-23T10:33:00.000-05:002024-02-23T10:33:37.674-05:00Our Culture Is Littered with Unverifiable Claims About God<div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: large;">
<a href=" " target="blank"> </a>
<div><b><span style="font-family: times;">Are we any better off because of it? <div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiDedL7K205fQZBr4_A9J-1NhTzrdtFE758wcSW4z-l8SQVqsin6kpgyl5XyjPPJACGL86l6LJ6flgjWovobjPcqBJCOyNG_kqANGHrI04sPGf0KQ2QnkxZOfagQbiuKCPtyvHh9KEKT48hLApk7bWLU1Df7eZntk-wxSL22nwGgao16Vd4xcycxQ/s570/CCKQ%20No%20387,%20Sagan,%20Near%20the%20core%20of%20religious%20experience%20is%20something%20remarkably%20resistant%20to%20rational%20inquiry%20%20.jpg" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="570" data-original-width="500" height="400" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiDedL7K205fQZBr4_A9J-1NhTzrdtFE758wcSW4z-l8SQVqsin6kpgyl5XyjPPJACGL86l6LJ6flgjWovobjPcqBJCOyNG_kqANGHrI04sPGf0KQ2QnkxZOfagQbiuKCPtyvHh9KEKT48hLApk7bWLU1Df7eZntk-wxSL22nwGgao16Vd4xcycxQ/w351-h400/CCKQ%20No%20387,%20Sagan,%20Near%20the%20core%20of%20religious%20experience%20is%20something%20remarkably%20resistant%20to%20rational%20inquiry%20%20.jpg" width="351"></a></div><br></span></b></div><div><b><span style="font-family: times;"><br></span></b><span style="font-family: times;">When I was growing up in a small town (pop. 1,600) in rural Indiana in the 1940-1950s, there were four churches: three Protestant and one Roman Catholic. It would have been unthinkable for Protestants ever to attend Sunday worship at the Catholic church. We knew that the Catholic version of the faith was just plain wrong—and the Catholics felt exactly the same way about us. In fact, one of their favorite taunts was that <i>we’d all go to hell</i> because we weren’t Catholic. Yet the profound disagreements didn’t touch the one basic truth we held dear: God was real.</span></div></span></div><a href="http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2024/02/our-culture-is-littered-with.html#more"></a><div class="blogger-post-footer"><script type="text/javascript"><!--
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</script></div>David Madisonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13102045104265897904noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-49712954841394605042024-02-20T14:31:00.000-05:002024-02-20T14:31:32.541-05:00My Reply to a Trump Supporter<div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: large;">You know much, much more than the evidence shows. In other words, you believe that which lacks evidence. Final answer.<br><br>
Demand evidence!<br><br>
Coincidences do not count, since the brain is an expert at finding them.</span></div><a href="http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2024/02/my-reply-to-trump-supporter.html#more"></a><div class="blogger-post-footer"><script type="text/javascript"><!--
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</script></div>John W. Loftushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07167826997171207256noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-41206875922445064262024-02-19T10:03:00.001-05:002024-02-19T10:03:42.296-05:00Faith and Reason are Mutually Exclusive Opposites<div style="text-align: justify;">This is the conclusion I have come to. In my years of Blogging there is nothing I have written that elicits more of an adverse response from Christian believers than when I have denounced faith in favor of scientifically based reasoning. I can write against the resurrection, miracles, or the inspiration of the Bible, but when I write against faith the blog world lights up (well, those who read my blog anyway). Why? George H. Smith tells us in <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Atheism-Case-Against-Skeptics-Bookshelf/dp/087975124X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1331213789&sr=1-1" target="_blank">Atheism: The Case Against God</a>: “In order to understand the nature of a philosophical conflict one must grasp the fundamental differences that give rise to the conflict.” True enough. Applied to debates between atheism and Christianity he identifies what it is: “The conflict between Christian theism and atheism is fundamentally a conflict between faith and reason. This, in epistemological terms, is the essence of the controversy. Reason and faith are opposites, two mutually exclusive terms: there is no reconciliation or common ground. Faith is belief without, or in spite of, reason.” (pp. 96-98) As such, “For the atheist, to embrace faith is to abandon reason.” (p. 100)</div><a href="http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2024/02/faith-and-reason-are-mutually-exclusive.html#more"></a><div class="blogger-post-footer"><script type="text/javascript"><!--
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</script></div>John W. Loftushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07167826997171207256noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-57047075389994247982024-02-16T10:46:00.000-05:002024-02-16T10:46:36.452-05:00Jesus Quotes—Among Many—Christian Could Do Without, Part 2<div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: large;">
<a href=" " target="blank"> </a>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in; text-align: start;"><b><span style="font-family: times; font-size: large;">Many believers just ignore what Jesus would do</span></b></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><b><span style="font-family: times; font-size: large;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhhkoBsm0abu0yrXSIiOBFhey9gXsfm517qqCA4Bg9vPoy75NkXfgUqesH7ngxdQyWksF2RyfJOuar_I7of8QFal7o8z-kb8aGM0AATPxSXGBBDnjx8kjaDULZ6RDfWnkWRvwkb6Dd2RnAVY56ZKFIor3ow3mo_4wDfc08ol7Ey1Gccz6b7_6JiDA/s603/CCKQ%20No%20331,%20Fitzgerald,%20It%E2%80%99s%20no%20coincidence%20that%20the%20Christians%20who%20study%20the%20Bible%20the%20hardest.jpg" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="499" data-original-width="603" height="331" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhhkoBsm0abu0yrXSIiOBFhey9gXsfm517qqCA4Bg9vPoy75NkXfgUqesH7ngxdQyWksF2RyfJOuar_I7of8QFal7o8z-kb8aGM0AATPxSXGBBDnjx8kjaDULZ6RDfWnkWRvwkb6Dd2RnAVY56ZKFIor3ow3mo_4wDfc08ol7Ey1Gccz6b7_6JiDA/w400-h331/CCKQ%20No%20331,%20Fitzgerald,%20It%E2%80%99s%20no%20coincidence%20that%20the%20Christians%20who%20study%20the%20Bible%20the%20hardest.jpg" width="400"></a></span></b></div><b><span style="font-family: times; font-size: large;"><br><o:p></o:p></span></b><p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in; text-align: start;"><b><span style="font-family: times; font-size: large;"><br></span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in; text-align: start;"><b><span style="font-family: times; font-size: large;"><br></span></b></p><style class="WebKit-mso-list-quirks-style">
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</style><div><span style="font-family: times; font-size: large;">If we are sliding toward American Theocracy—there are many super religious folks pushing hard to make it happen—we’re in for a lot of stress and pain. But why should nonbelievers be the only ones to suffer? We should hold Christians themselves to high standards. If they’re going to be calling the shots, let’s require they be experts in their own religion. Let’s push for a federal law that all professed Christians must <b><i>show proof</i></b> that they’ve read the four gospels carefully—and that they do this on an ongoing basis. We want them to be experts on the teaching of Jesus. Proof of this expertise would include a written test—by federal law. There could be a <b><i>Department of Verified Bible Study.<br><o:p></o:p></i></b></span><o:p><span style="font-family: times; font-size: large;"> </span></o:p><span style="font-size: large;"></span></div></span></div><a href="http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2024/02/jesus-quotesamong-manychristian-could.html#more"></a><div class="blogger-post-footer"><script type="text/javascript"><!--
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</script></div>David Madisonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13102045104265897904noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-19766152196423195632024-02-14T05:10:00.003-05:002024-02-14T05:10:57.547-05:00Dr. Richard Carrier Interview On the 𝟝 Endings of Mark, and More!<div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: large;">
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</script></div>John W. Loftushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07167826997171207256noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-74056424953296408022024-02-12T08:00:00.006-05:002024-02-12T08:00:00.142-05:00How Yahweh Became a Donkey-Headed Egyptian Demon Called Set<div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: large;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjbXG9Me0K5e1Pp3UuLRQwm5V4qgEwoE1DuBSnrazAfKILix_Ficj2kjpWYXVUwWKaKCICpWNNgCiEs6zpyN4FNlC_IxXIYK31rpUGMmS3K0kq3wqlGesEkjVVV6A39gVtKXwIOtcDRX0EYKx6SMAjNi2ZVtI621fPV3i2ig5WnEFqeOjRTpvWQiw/s941/Screenshot_20240211_210051_Facebook.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="799" data-original-width="941" height="170" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjbXG9Me0K5e1Pp3UuLRQwm5V4qgEwoE1DuBSnrazAfKILix_Ficj2kjpWYXVUwWKaKCICpWNNgCiEs6zpyN4FNlC_IxXIYK31rpUGMmS3K0kq3wqlGesEkjVVV6A39gVtKXwIOtcDRX0EYKx6SMAjNi2ZVtI621fPV3i2ig5WnEFqeOjRTpvWQiw/w200-h170/Screenshot_20240211_210051_Facebook.jpg" width="200" /></a></div>This is an interesting post written by Dr. Darren Slade.
<blockquote>The conflation of Yahweh with the Egyptian demon-god Set, influenced early Christian interpretations of the Old Testament god as an evil deity. <a href="https://www.gcrr.org/post/yahweh-and-set?fbclid=IwAR15HCgtWSOmvQnxOOV51kj7utRpN3WKtJWsS9kOaRlLZ0wJK1RZt3Nxzeo" target="blank">LINK</a>.</blockquote>
As I read this, it just reinforces how people argued against other myths with their own. Plus, it shows just how superstitious and mythically-minded the prescientific people were. Other thoughts?</span></div><div class="blogger-post-footer"><script type="text/javascript"><!--
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</script></div>John W. Loftushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07167826997171207256noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21219785.post-29208526801077053372024-02-10T14:47:00.002-05:002024-02-10T14:50:02.005-05:00The Audible Version of My Book, Guessing About God, Narrated by Seth Andrews <div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: large;">
<a href=" " target="blank"> </a>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in; text-align: start;"><b><span style="font-family: times;">is now available on Amazon</span></b></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><b><span style="font-family: times;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjC8FsdKHuOLb15j-94-Y-7g1InB917ajIzF66ZBGKybayqhseGlwPG9ASMT-KQDiQ8UUn9pswvghk_DQM3F1rmnHNUiXboQb94E8SYAQJaDTKBmAwgdnz_Y53kFo9iVCss-bRI9UNaoGBD8rNjP0E9st6uFa1erFyiVAjLZpe_Qu_6drO_CxAP1g/s750/Seth%20Andrews%20narrates%20Guessing%20About%20God,%20revised.jpg" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="750" data-original-width="500" height="400" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjC8FsdKHuOLb15j-94-Y-7g1InB917ajIzF66ZBGKybayqhseGlwPG9ASMT-KQDiQ8UUn9pswvghk_DQM3F1rmnHNUiXboQb94E8SYAQJaDTKBmAwgdnz_Y53kFo9iVCss-bRI9UNaoGBD8rNjP0E9st6uFa1erFyiVAjLZpe_Qu_6drO_CxAP1g/w266-h400/Seth%20Andrews%20narrates%20Guessing%20About%20God,%20revised.jpg" width="266"></a></span></b></div><b><span style="font-family: times;"><br><o:p></o:p></span></b><p></p><span style="font-family: times;"><br>
</span></span></div><div style="text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: large;"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in; text-align: start;"><span style="font-family: times;">Seth Andrews did such a great job narrating <b><i><a href="https://www.amazon.com/Things-Christians-Jesus-Hadnt-Taught/dp/B09G4QR2G8/ref=tmm_aud_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=" target="_blank">Ten Things Christians Wish Jesus Hadn’t Taught</a></i></b>, so we’re super pleased that he has done this book as well. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in; text-align: start;"><o:p><span style="font-family: times;"> </span></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in; text-align: start;"><span style="font-family: times;">Why the title <i><b>Guessing About God</b></i>? Because that’s what theologians and clergy have been doing for centuries, because reliable, verifiable, objective evidence for god(s) has never been found. Which is exactly why religions cannot agree—even Christians have fought each other, often to the point of bloodshed, because they can’t agree about god. There are now more than 30,000 Christian denominations, divisions, factions, sects, and cults. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in; text-align: start;"><o:p><span style="font-family: times;"> </span></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in; text-align: start;"><span style="font-family: times;">All their guessing about god has been disastrous. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in; text-align: start;"><o:p><span style="font-family: times;"> </span></o:p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in; text-align: start;"><span style="font-family: times;">The link to the Audible is <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Guessing-About-God-Problems-Christian/dp/B0CV61S5Z5/ref=tmm_aud_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1692995402&sr=1-1" target="_blank">here</a>.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in; text-align: start;"><span style="font-family: times;">The link to the paperback is <a href="https://www.amazon.com/GUESSING-ABOUT-Problems-Christian-Belief/dp/B0C9SDN7PJ/ref=sr_1_1?crid=19OU9DDB23V9P&keywords=david+madison+g" target="_blank">here</a>.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in; text-align: start;"><span style="font-family: times;">The link to the Kindle is <a href="https://www.amazon.com/GUESSING-ABOUT-Problems-Christian-Belief-ebook/dp/B0CB75XX13/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1692995402&sr=1-1" target="_blank">here</a>. </span><span style="font-family: Times New Roman, serif; font-size: medium;"><o:p></o:p></span></p></span></div><a href="http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2024/02/the-audible-version-of-guessing-about.html#more"></a><div class="blogger-post-footer"><script type="text/javascript"><!--
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in; text-align: start;"><b><span style="font-family: times;">Miracles are far more trouble than they’re worth</span></b></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><b><span style="font-family: times;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhb8imPl8NZNKcD9pTEUpGM56ELglCXVHFmJABN7L8NVGESBTYxl_cXA8Rph8AjEDU1jzZiPVvWHAWZC0Pqoo7mfT3X70kmpWF_O5Gz65iYXs7zPrWAhUq8j9tJW529As_gW7gncFvLuw0QeDcl9Bh-G5fnkIcL1YkdAQf241xi9m8YUV6dszMUFQ/s621/David%20Corner,%20There%20is%20no%20existing%20scriptural%20testimony%20that%20is%20strong%20enough%20to%20accomplish%20this%20%20.jpg" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="621" data-original-width="500" height="400" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhb8imPl8NZNKcD9pTEUpGM56ELglCXVHFmJABN7L8NVGESBTYxl_cXA8Rph8AjEDU1jzZiPVvWHAWZC0Pqoo7mfT3X70kmpWF_O5Gz65iYXs7zPrWAhUq8j9tJW529As_gW7gncFvLuw0QeDcl9Bh-G5fnkIcL1YkdAQf241xi9m8YUV6dszMUFQ/w323-h400/David%20Corner,%20There%20is%20no%20existing%20scriptural%20testimony%20that%20is%20strong%20enough%20to%20accomplish%20this%20%20.jpg" width="323"></a></span></b></div><b><span style="font-family: times;"><br><o:p></o:p></span></b><p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in; text-align: start;"><span style="font-family: times;"><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in; text-align: start;"><span style="font-family: times;">When my first book was published in 2016 (<i>Ten Tough Problems in Christian Thought and Belief) </i>I used its Facebook page for promotion. Many Christians who found the page made blistering comments, pumped with rage and hate— they assured me I’d never been a real believer, and that I was destined for hell. Almost none were interested in engaging with the ideas advanced in the book, but one fellow did; he had intense emotional investment in the Jesus’ resurrection—it was his guarantee for escaping death. I responded that there were other ancient religions that worshipped dying-rising gods, and that promised the same thing. He responded confidently, proudly that his Jesus was <i>the only one who had really done it</i>. It was clear that this belief had been instilled in his brain from a very early age. And how could the Bible be wrong?</span></p></span></div><a href="http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2024/02/defending-miracles-as-proof-of-faith.html#more"></a><div class="blogger-post-footer"><script type="text/javascript"><!--
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1) Richard Carrier destroys such a claim in my anthology, <a href="https://amzn.to/3w4Z9qE">The Christian Delusion</a>. As you might guess, I love how he opens his chapter. He excoriates it! </span></div><a href="http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2024/02/on-alleged-christian-origins-of-modern.html#more"></a><div class="blogger-post-footer"><script type="text/javascript"><!--
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<a href=" " target="blank"> </a>
<div><b><span style="font-family: times;">Victimizing indigenous peoples, slaves, women and children<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhz6S1qkg_ff0YBv3Oeyra1q2_v6Qgwz-YJxLyR_dqSR1jKCwL5PQ-Xa1w_gqcbVhIi-_8G6QlkFZCwy9tKuIkxSfBf0CNX0RZKcu-KpLvKvrqtKkuX3cCUolUNsjlKbOSBwu3rb9D4WcfbrDSj6GSeV9sBT6n4acENr2rnskMZWpO1QI-7W90oSQ/s625/Bufe,%20The%20savagery%20of%20Columbus%E2%80%99s%20Christian%20conquerors%20rivaled%20that%20of%20the%20Nazis%20or%20ISIS.jpg" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="625" data-original-width="500" height="400" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhz6S1qkg_ff0YBv3Oeyra1q2_v6Qgwz-YJxLyR_dqSR1jKCwL5PQ-Xa1w_gqcbVhIi-_8G6QlkFZCwy9tKuIkxSfBf0CNX0RZKcu-KpLvKvrqtKkuX3cCUolUNsjlKbOSBwu3rb9D4WcfbrDSj6GSeV9sBT6n4acENr2rnskMZWpO1QI-7W90oSQ/w320-h400/Bufe,%20The%20savagery%20of%20Columbus%E2%80%99s%20Christian%20conquerors%20rivaled%20that%20of%20the%20Nazis%20or%20ISIS.jpg" width="320"></a></div><br></span></b><b><span style="font-family: times;"><br></span></b><b><span style="font-family: times;"><br></span></b><span style="font-family: times;">A few months ago, an elderly Catholic friend explained to me how the church had guided her religious development. Regarding the certainties about god they’d been taught in catechism, she said the priests “…told us <i>not to think</i> about them.” Hence reading the Bible was never encouraged, because that might provoke <i>skeptical</i> <i>thoughts</i>. In fact the gospels are dangerous territory: there is so much in them that can alarm modern readers who are even somewhat aware of how the world works. Nor do the clergy want their parishioners to explore—<i>to</i> <i>think about</i>— the history of Christianity: how the church and the faithful have responded to those who disagree and resist; examples include the Crusades, the Inquisition, burning women thought to be witches. However, Christianity is guilty of so much more—so much worse—but the devout don’t want to explore these realities of history.</span></div></span></div><a href="http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2024/02/the-horrifying-sins-of-christianity.html#more"></a><div class="blogger-post-footer"><script type="text/javascript"><!--
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One thing is sure to me. The Triune God in the Bible simply cannot be describing the God who exists. That God is a barbaric God. He is a hateful, racist, sexist God.<br><br>Consider these stories: In the Flood story we’re told God wanted to destroy all mankind. In Moses’ day God wanted to destroy all of the Israelites. In Joshua’s day God wanted the Israelites to kill all of the inhabitants of the Promised Land. Saul was told by God to destroy all of the Amalekites. According to Jonah, God was going to destroy the people of Nineveh. God also destroyed and scattered the northern tribes of Israel because he was displeased with them. God allowed the accuser to destroy Job’s health and family life just to win a “bet.” In the New Testament, God will destroy all unbelievers in the lake of fire. He’s a pretty barbaric God, if you ask me. This God is simply the reflection of ancient barbaric peoples.</div><div class="fullpost" style="text-align: left;">Christians think the Militant Muslims are wrong for wanting to kill free loving people in the world, and they are. <b>But the only difference between these Muslims and the Christian Biblical God is that they simply disagree on who should be killed. </b>They both agree people should be killed; they just disagree on who should die.<span></span></div><a href="http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2006/02/barbaric-god-of-bible.html#more"></a><div class="blogger-post-footer"><script type="text/javascript"><!--
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<a href=" " target="blank"> </a>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in; text-align: start;"><b><span style="font-family: times;">The gospels stand in the way</span></b></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><b><span style="font-family: times;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjV774G5hzCkfPmmlLTwvH8TqhfhdLJg0quSH8K1uHMeBJNmURLQX7sGN9oK4bPPjsFTbvi74XZsno13Z0i3ndkkuFBJFWUDtIdVV4vBiWo1mOxvqAGa7Ow4z_L4e9ZaqbSzPT7foNbYcs9R_oaqVOVT8TzgyiW7O6RPayvYMYE8McH-j0hMy8Whg/s601/Madison,%20The%20gospels%20are%20a%20barrier.jpg" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="601" data-original-width="500" height="400" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjV774G5hzCkfPmmlLTwvH8TqhfhdLJg0quSH8K1uHMeBJNmURLQX7sGN9oK4bPPjsFTbvi74XZsno13Z0i3ndkkuFBJFWUDtIdVV4vBiWo1mOxvqAGa7Ow4z_L4e9ZaqbSzPT7foNbYcs9R_oaqVOVT8TzgyiW7O6RPayvYMYE8McH-j0hMy8Whg/w333-h400/Madison,%20The%20gospels%20are%20a%20barrier.jpg" width="333"></a></span></b></div><b><span style="font-family: times;"><br><o:p></o:p></span></b><p></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in; text-align: start;"><b><span style="font-family: times;"><br></span></b></p><div><span style="font-family: times;">It is so common for churchgoers to assume they know what Jesus was like. This knowledge comes from what their clergy tell them, the content of favorite hymns—and sometimes by selectively reading the gospels, that is, returning to comforting teachings of Jesus remembered from childhood. <br></span><o:p><span style="font-family: times;"> <br></span></o:p><span style="font-family: times;">The content of sermons and hymns is based on what can be found—and what is carefully ignored—in the gospels. But the gospels <b><i>are not</i></b>, in fact, a portal to Jesus information. They are a barrier. So many devout Christian seem not to have a clue that this is the case, and, moreover, <b><i>why </i></b>it is the case. Let’s look at six ways in which the gospels fail to deliver.</span><span style="font-size: large;"></span></div></span></div><a href="http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2024/01/six-degrees-of-separation-between.html#more"></a><div class="blogger-post-footer"><script type="text/javascript"><!--
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<i>Determined: A Science of Life Without Free Will</i> by <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Sapolsky">Robert M. Sapolsky</a><br>
Penguin Publishing Group | 2023 | ISBN: 9780525560982, 052556098X | Page count: 528 | <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determined:_A_Science_of_Life_Without_Free_Will">Wikipedia article</a> | <a href="https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/83817782-determined">Goodreads entry</a> and <a href="https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/92804113">quotations from the book</a> | <a href="http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN9780525560982">Google Books entry with preview</a> | <a href="https://amzn.to/3O7M1qE">Amazon link</a><br><br>
<i>Determined</i> is Robert M. Sapolsky's skeptical take on the topic of <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will">free will</a>. The topic is relevant to this blog since conceptions of free will have a long (and contentious) history in Christianity and other religions. In the religion debate, the issue of free will is likely to come up at some point, given that religious conceptions of free will tend to be pretty far from the scientific picture. See for example:
<ul>
<li><a href="https://www.debunking-christianity.com/2023/04/my-rambling-thoughts-on-free-will.html">My Rambling Thoughts On Free Will, Determinism, and Making Choices</a> by John W. Loftus at 4/26/2023</li>
<li><i><a href="https://www.debunking-christianity.com/2015/11/christianity-in-light-of-science.html">Christianity in the Light of Science: Critically Examining the World's Largest Religion</a></i> (<a href="https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/27710582-christianity-in-the-light-of-science">Goodreads entry</a>), Part 3: Science and Salvation, especially Chapter 9: Free Will</li>
<li><a href="https://stephenlaw.blogspot.com/2022/05/my-foreword-to-god-and-horrendous.html">My Foreword to God and Horrendous Suffering, ed. John Loftus</a> by Stephen Law, May 18, 2022 (mentions free will as a strategy by theists to solve the problem of evil)</li>
</ul>
As Sapolsky's book demonstrates at great length, free will is nowhere to be found in a scientific study of the human organism. Now, maybe some future scientific discovery will rescue free will, and therefore breathe some life into religious talking points that assume free will, but the trend so far is not encouraging for those who chain their theistic wagons to it.<br><br>
<i>Determined</i> is a fairly high-profile book in its niche, and has attracted its share of comment. Rather than rewrite everything in the existing commentary, I'll link to some of it. If anything in the rest of my review seems hard to follow, consider coming back here to read some or all of these:</span></div><a href="http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2024/01/review-of-determined-science-of-life.html#more"></a><div class="blogger-post-footer"><script type="text/javascript"><!--
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<div><b><span style="font-family: times; font-size: large;">What would Jesus do?—Well, that’s anybody’s guess<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgawCyiMUszEWWnHQVjRQcxNGeHLcdfkiOAg-Kho2Sm8G-JYKRGOPjz-sVjnUwaYY_M4zP1LsdVAEsYj8sxvbiRDMDBVSP6wUUxGZlY377Bl4DRrvtc4Tn968HLMRcECayQN5I_73oEOf_taj0sY_MoNVSTfrkSqJTF06r7Gpw-sOLDnitXJlPbLQ/s599/CCKQ%20No%20770,%20Loftus,%20If%20Jesus%20was%20an%20apocalyptic%20prophet,%20then%20he%20was%20a%20failed%20one%20%20.jpg" style="clear: right; float: right; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="481" data-original-width="599" height="321" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgawCyiMUszEWWnHQVjRQcxNGeHLcdfkiOAg-Kho2Sm8G-JYKRGOPjz-sVjnUwaYY_M4zP1LsdVAEsYj8sxvbiRDMDBVSP6wUUxGZlY377Bl4DRrvtc4Tn968HLMRcECayQN5I_73oEOf_taj0sY_MoNVSTfrkSqJTF06r7Gpw-sOLDnitXJlPbLQ/w400-h321/CCKQ%20No%20770,%20Loftus,%20If%20Jesus%20was%20an%20apocalyptic%20prophet,%20then%20he%20was%20a%20failed%20one%20%20.jpg" width="400"></a></div><br></span></b></div><div><b><span style="font-family: times; font-size: large;"><br></span></b><span style="font-family: times; font-size: large;">Let’s start on a positive note—before I move on to discuss very problematic Jesus quotes from the gospels. Of course, there are good Jesus quotes, and I like to combine Matthew 7:1-2 with John 8:7, which are, in fact, hard for conservative Christians especially to deal with:<br></span><o:p><span style="font-family: times; font-size: large;"> <br></span></o:p><span style="font-family: times; font-size: large;"><span class="text"><span style="color: black;">“Do not judge, so that you may not be judged.</span></span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="color: black;"> </span></span><span class="text"><span style="color: black;">For the judgment you give will be the judgment you get, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.”<br></span></span></span><o:p><span style="font-family: times; font-size: large;"> <br></span></o:p><span style="background-color: white; color: black;"><span style="font-family: times; font-size: large;">“Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”<br></span></span><span style="background-color: white; color: black;"><o:p><span style="font-family: times; font-size: large;"> <br></span></o:p></span><span style="background-color: white; color: black;"><span style="font-family: times; font-size: large;">But evangelicals savor despising gay people, feminists, and those who campaign for women’s rights (such as access to abortion). So they have ways to work around these compassionate teachings of Jesus, not to judge, not to throw stones. Their severe Christianity demands strident opposition. So Jesus can take a hike—at least they turn their backs on these quotes of their lord and savior: they can’t mean what they seem to mean.</span></span></div></span></div><a href="http://www.debunking-christianity.com/2024/01/ten-jesus-quotesamong-manychristians.html#more"></a><div class="blogger-post-footer"><script type="text/javascript"><!--
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