An Email for Discussion

I received an email from an Ed H. and I'd like some discussion about it. Here it 'tis...

I'm contacting you to ask you to answer a simple question regarding a basic issue related to the concept of atheism. The basic issue related to atheism can be stated as follows: My position is that atheism is an invalid concept for the following, but somewhat long-winded simple rationale:

I understand and agree that it's impossible to prove the existence of God, or to "keep-it-simple-stupid," that spirit is an attribute of matter based on any reasonable definition of matter or spirit, or application or version of the scientific method. However, it's also impossible to deny that spirit is an attribute of matter. This is because it is impossible to perform one or more experiments to completely validate any scientific theory without having some level of resultant difference in the sample statistical variances for each of the sample experimental measurements. This is a simple statistical fact, and since experiments performed by independent investigators to produce what are considered to be equivalent results, are essential to support any scientific theory, then any resultant credible theory based on the experimental data will still has some measure of intrinsic uncertainty. The result being that no one, especially atheists, can discount the possibility, however small, that something as basic as spirit is not an attribute of matter, or even deny the overly simplistic idea that traditional versions of something like a Judea-Christian God is possible. Further, since there is this inherent small uncertainty in any position taken by scientists, then it's also obvious that atheism's dogmatic rationale that God is something akin to a fantasy is clearly unsupportable. Therefore, atheism is nothing more than an invalid concept that can simply be defined as dogmatic science. Now since dogmatic science typically includes groups like scientists without a label, secular humanists, and atheists, then the more rational members of the scientist and secular humanist communities should seriously consider discounting and divorcing themselves from atheists, and simply define themselves as agnostics. However, arriving at this more rational state will obviously require redefining the simplistic and archaic terms "atheist and agnostic."

I happen to believe that it's not necessary to accept any of the traditional religious dogma to believe in the possibility that some attributes of spirit, or the paranormal, may be attributes of matter. Philosophers and scientists have been debating this issue for millenniums, although not precisely in my terms. And speculation based on credible scientific theory allows this. My bottom line here is that while I think that I understand rational, secular, and scientific positions concerning religious dogma, I also think an atheist position based primarily on rational scientific rationale, unfortunately results in atheists being essentially no different from those who believe in religious dogma.

All anyone has to do is to take a cursory look at recorded history to note that there have been a comparable number of atrocities and genocides committed by both extreme atheist and religious advocates. Thus the atheist and secular humanist focus on the religious community is not only counter productive, but just continues to relate to ego at the expense of using our energy in a more productive and far less destructive way to help minimize this age old problem of getting some respectful level of communication going to eliminate some of the dogma in the extremes, and especially to get some meaningful communication ongoing between the less dogmatic extreme advocates of religion and science.

I also have a lot of confidence in scientific theory because it has allowed us to form the basis for, and to develop and apply our technology, and I've thoroughly enjoyed the past 50-years applying electrical engineering technology to a variety of different problems, but the fact remains there is uncertainty in all of our decisions based on science, and about everything else we know, or what we will ever know about this physical universe, or other dimensions.

One important thing I learned early in my career, as an electrical engineer was being able take a lot of data and to prioritize and organize the related parameters into a simplified model of interconnected processes. There are at least two significant benefits for developing this skill while at the same time carefully considering the implications of William Ockham's razor: First, it allows you to have a second rationale when solving a problem that has been modeled/simulated and solved in parallel using something like a mainframe computer and supporting analysts (though I've also found that having a third solution significantly improves your confidence), and second of more importance, is that this is a basic approach that can be used to arrive at a first-order understanding of anything, while at the same time recognizing, that while any of us are in this physical universe, the best that any of us will ever be able to do, will be to come up with only an approximation as to what is reality, and also recognize that the approximation will change over time.

I prefer to look at things in what I loosely describe as a rational-pseudo-statistical approach (how vague is that), meaning that I like to assess scientific literature and speculate about what is possible based on a selected small set of what appears to be credible correlated ideas in the metaphysical literature (metaphysical here including everything related to the paranormal). I understand that many ostrich members of the scientific community reject rational scientific speculation, but this is one of the few fun games still left in town, because relying totally on our scientific theory and rational thinking is somewhat boring. Plus speculation naturally leads to some interesting correlations, such as: but not limited to: an apparent agreement between science and metaphysics, where the following are possible: multiple dimensions, multi-dimensional humans, a more interesting multi-dimensional description of string theory, a holographic universe, something existing before the big bang, etc.

Now even after a cursory exposure to philosophy and science, it should be obvious to anyone that any simplification we may arrive at relative to reality is going to be nothing more than an approximation, so just relax and enjoy your present experience/lifetime in this physical universe.

It boggles my mind that so many secular humanists, including their smaller subset of atheist advocates, take such a negative adversarial position as to the religious advocates (except Muslims because their fringe groups deserve serious attention). Don't they (the secular humanists and atheists) understand the simple fact that atheism has been responsible for genocides committed by the likes of Hitler and Stalin, and that at the other extreme, the Catholic Church has caused unaccounted for atrocities for over 1,000-past years, and now we still have the Muslim problem that's been around for over a millennium? What is needed is to first understand that these two fringe segments and their supporting atheist and religious advocates need to be enlightened. Oh I know this will never be completely resolved, but at least the situation should be amenable to improvement, and it should be easier to help atheists become enlightened since they are already partially in la-la land, at least I hope so.

Look, another of my bottom lines is this: if an atheist wants to base his or her logic on 50-decimal points of empirical accuracy, then fine, but at least they should be honest and admit that they might be wrong. I mean hasn't history demonstrated that many of our cherished scientific theories have been proven wrong? At least that's certainly true of every major theory out there now, including the greatest intellectual achievement of man, quantum mechanics -- isn't this obvious? The fact is that no one has, or ever will develop a theory for "All that Is" anyway, and even if they think they have one, it'll change. I'm not suggesting that scientists should not continue the adventure, because, hopefully everyone should gain some benefits from technology properly utilized, but also let's have some fun speculating about what might be possible based on science and metaphysics (but keep the crackpot fringe out). Now while science, technology, art, anthropology, psychology (science?), religious history, and everything else is fun; speculating about what is really possible with respect to matter and spirit is the icing on the cake. And taking the secular humanist rational approach based on science is the easy way out, flawed, and when applied, typically overly: opinionated and condescending, and a hell of a lot less fun.

By the way, I'm in the process of writing a book related to the subject of matter & spirit and if you can come up with anything logical to reject my argument that the intrinsic uncertainty in scientific experiments negates atheist denying that the paranormal is possible, then please enlighten me, but please not with generic philosophical arguments because the vast majority of past philosophers were either misfits, and/or had very limited knowledge of our physical universe, and therefore, many of their pet arguments with respect to reality are seriously flawed, and anyway, now most of them have been replaced by the "wisdom of scientist gurus." And also, please don't come up with intelligent design isn't science, that obvious; or with this old argument that there is no way to validate that the paranormal is an element of matter, because that's also obvious; or that there is no scientific evidence for miracles, Jesus being divine or God, or his mother being a virgin, or that Jesus was actually resurrected in human form; or that the Pope being infallible (Thomas Jefferson had a simple solution to some of those problems when he authored the Jefferson Bible); so please don't bug me with any of that stuff, because none of it is even an issue here -- and because I'm very busy, and because I simply want to contribute as little energy as possible to getting the "misguided-omnipotent-smart-ass" secular humanist and atheist communities straightened out.

Ed H.

20 comments:

Bruce said...

Don't they (the secular humanists and atheists) understand the simple fact that atheism has been responsible for genocides committed by the likes of Hitler and Stalin,

Sorry Ed H, you lost all credibility as soon as you pulled out the old "Hitler was an atheist" argument. First, he wasn't. Second, atheism did not cause these things. Sure, Stalin may have been an atheist, but that only means one thing, that he didn't believe in any god. That's it. It says nothing else about who he was. You see, unlike religion, atheism does not provide you with an overall philosophy about how to live your life and how to be a good, moral person. You'll have to find these things from somewhere else, such as a Secular Humanistic type philosophy. And I can tell you this much, neither Stalin nor Hitler were Humanists.

Your whole argument seems to be the old "you can't prove that god/supernatural/spirit doesn't exist" and thus it is perfectly reasonable to speculate that it does. I'll give you a hint, it's called "burden of proof". One of has it and one of us doesn't, I'll let you guess who.

And you crack me up dude. You seem to be inviting us to comment on your email but yet you spend the whole last part of your email telling us not to bother arguing with you because you don't want to hear it.

Speculate all you want about spirit and matter. Go ahead, knock yourself out. I don't see what it's really going to get you though until you can prove your theories and you've pretty much ruled that out because it's obvious that you don't believe in the scientific method or you at least choose not to follow it. It's the best thing we've got to help us make sense out of our reality. Until you can come up with something better, no one's going to take your speculations seriously.

Anonymous said...

I think atheism is a valid position because we can compare the debate over spirit to scientific debates.
The protagonist propoeses a hypothesis and the antagonists or Peers attempt to falsify it. If it can't be falsified and the hypothesis bears fruit in the form of technology, then we can reasonably deduce that the hypothesis is correct to some degree.

Its been over 2000 years and the hypothesis has hardly made any progress. I think we can reasonably deduce that we should redirect our resources to another tree.

Anonymous said...

However,
I do agree that agnosticism is the the more reasonable viewpoint.

Even the christian should agree to that. If you look in the comments, when faced with an unaswereable criticism the christian will fall back on "we don't know, or cannot know", which is agnosticism. So by admitting that, they are admitting that they are basing their conclusion on a bias rather than evidence.

therefore, the christian unwittingly supports the assertion that agnosticism is the more rational viewpoint.

zilch said...

Ed H. defends the position that since there is uncertainty in all measurements, atheists cannot be certain that spirit does not exist, and thus atheism is an "invalid concept". I would agree that 100% certainty is a chimera, but who holds that position? All we can reasonably believe, provisionally, is what the (admittedly imperfect) evidence tells us. And to my knowledge there's no evidence for spirit, or any other paranormal phenomena, that cannot be explained in a naturalistic framework.

So atheism is "invalid" in the sense that it can never be absolutely proven. But that doesn't mean that it is not a reasonable position, in fact arguably the most reasonable position to take. By Ed H.'s definition of "invalid", then of course all religions are "invalid" also, and any unprovable notion cannot be differentiated from any other. For instance, when Ed says:

The result being that no one, especially atheists, can discount the possibility, however small, that something as basic as spirit is not an attribute of matter, or even deny the overly simplistic idea that traditional versions of something like a Judea-Christian God is possible. Further, since there is this inherent small uncertainty in any position taken by scientists, then it's also obvious that atheism's dogmatic rationale that God is something akin to a fantasy is clearly unsupportable.

... I could alter that to say:

The result being that no one, especially atheists, can discount the possibility, however small, that something as basic as meatballs are not in orbit around Mars, or even deny the overly simplistic idea that traditional versions of something like a Flying Spaghetti Monster is possible. Further, since there is this inherent small uncertainty in any position taken by scientists, then it's also obvious that atheism's dogmatic rationale that the FSM is something akin to a fantasy is clearly unsupportable.

The only difference is that the FSM doesn't have millenia of tradition behind It. By Ed's reasoning, though, there's no way to discount It either, so a-spaghettimonsterism is just as untenable as a-theism. Of course, Jehovah has more fans than the FSM, and vox populi, vox Dei, as they say. But the people are not necessarily right: vox populi is not always vox scientiae.

Obviously, we have to accept the fact that we cannot prove scientific theories perfectly, and live with the resulting uncertainty. Luckily, this uncertainty is small enough in many cases that we are unlikely to suffer unduly if we do not spend a lot of time entertaining such notions as astrology, orbiting teapots or meatballs, or nonmaterial spirits.

goprairie said...

Is there a duck sitting on my laptop keyboard? I don't see one or feel one or smell one or hear one. I don't feel movement of air that might indicate one was there. I can reach my keyboard, so it is not blocked by a duck. There is no eveidence of a duck. COuld it be an invisible duck? What scientific instrument could 'prove' that there is not a duck? No scientific instrument could prove there is any trace of a duck, so I am allowed to say with 100% certainty that there is no duck on my keyboard. No one can make me agree that because I cannot prove it is not there, I have to accept that it is. Or even that it MIGHT be. Insofar as a duck being on my keyboard, I am 100% a-duckist. Being ag-duckic is NOT the most logical position. Similarly, I see no eveidence for God, never have, and so I reserve the right to declare 100% atheism and to refuse even the shred of allowing that there could be that would push me to the agnostic label. Once I see one shred of evidence, then I will claim agnosticism, but not merely because the lack of something cannot itself be proven.

Anonymous said...

When I was in school I had to work with paranoid schizophrenics. Delusional people are very interesting to talk to because when you first deal with them, you are of the opinion that their fixed, false beliefs will be amenable to argument.

So you try to argue them out of their beliefs by appeal to common sense, logic, reason and experience. You soon realize that they are far more skilled at argument than you would have imagined. Their belief systems are completely air-tight -- to the point that there is literally no fact you could show them that could possibly alter their weltanschaung.

In the end, the only real critique of a delusion is aesthetic. "Yes," you say, "it is possible that everything that happens to you is under the control of the CIA who are trying to make you believe you are crazy, but that is a very narrow and unpleasant way to view one's life. It would be very liberating to view the world as not solely focused on yourself, wouldn't it?"

This critique alone, is also completely useless, unless given with some haloperidol.

In the end, the ghost theories that people like Ed H posit -- that essentially argue with the same solipsism as the paranoid, fall flat. But this failing is on aesthetic grounds rather than purely logical or rational bases.

Anonymous said...

I'm finally am getting around to commenting on this post of Ed’s.

There is a big difference between affirming something and denying something. I can be completely confident that Christianity is delusionary while holding my own specific affirmative beliefs tentatively. 'Tis easier to smell a rotten egg than it is to lay a good one. It's easier to deny an argument than it is to produce a good one.

There is a big difference between myself and Christians. We all can be completely confident in denying the beliefs of others. But I hold my affirmative beliefs tentatively. The Christian, however, is as confident that she is correct as that the others are wrong. All one has to do is to listen to them, most all of them. I have been called ignorant and stupid not to see the Christian truth as they see it. I have never said or thought that about those who don't accept atheism. As I've argued, the default position is agnosticism ("I don't know"). I don't know what to believe after the demolition is done. I am first and foremost an agnostic who concludes secondarily there is no supernatural deity.

Here are my further thoughts on this issue:

See here, and here, and here.

Cheers.

Anonymous said...

Hoo, Boy, where to begin.

Ed H's letter gave me that reaction. Lots of ground covered. Where to start?

First off, he dismisses scientific thought and the results of scientific investigation as being equivalent to religious dogma. And somewhere in there is a common misconception of the term "theory" as it relates to science.

Scientific theory is defined as an explantion of provable scientific facts. If other facts come up that cause a modification of a given theory, then that theory is changed. Science has no problem with that.

And yes, there are scientific facts. We know, as Ed surely does, that we can manipulate electrons to make them do work for us. There are a series of facts that we have observed through study that we can use to light our homes and bring us an internet.

In short, scientific facts are not equivalent to religious dogma because they have been proven.

Ed H also seems to think that all athiests have a common set of beliefs, such as a particular Christian sect may have.

I rather doubt that. The only thing that athiests have in common is a non-belief in a God. How we arrive there is as individualistic as it can get, from all I have read and experienced. There is no common "dogma" other than this central observation.

I was born into Catholicism and did the whole route including parochial school. We had lovely nuns that steered us around by our hair when they weren't using other physical means to keep us in line.

This primed me for a 40 year-long journey into many religions, lots of reading and a lot of thought. I observed the following:

1) For supposedly loving us, God sure is mean.
2) The bible cannot be inerrant, humans can hardly keep a story straight for 10 minutes let alone millenia.
3) Honest bible research will show that it is not what it is purported to be in terms of historicity or authorship. It simply is not credible.
4) No one has ever been able to prove anything remotely like a spirit. "Paranormal" activity has never been proven. James Randi has had a million dollar bet against it and no one has won it (this has beein going on 20 years or more). The celebrated experiments that were supposed to have proven ESP turned out to be flawed.
5) Stories of various gods have existed long before the current one in mythology. Identical traits of immortality, omniscience, omnipotence and super benevolence and some of them even had sons. Half-human and half-god and get this - he died for our sins. What makes this one any more valid?
6) The properties of God are in themselves paradoxal. Omnipotence, Immortality, omniscience and supreme benevolence all seem to either contradict themselves or each other. And why do we never see the benefit of these?

And there's more that I won't bore you with. The point here is that while I may share the common disbelief in a god with other athiests, my journey was unique and my reasons may or may not be shared with others.

Now, about the mass murderers. You mention Hitler being an athiest. I do not beleive this to be correct. He was Christian, as I recall. Yes, Stalin was athiest, but he was a fascist first. And then there are the many Christian escapades over the centuries. In all, this is not a reflection of theocratic belief, but rather a psychological problem.

I really can't buy your defense of the soul or your larger defense of theism. There is no "soul" to attach to matter, and if there were, it would likely have to be a little slectivity employed in that process. Could get awfully crowded in the spirit realm if every coffee table, couch and ashtray had a soul.

--kb9aln

Bruce said...

John wrote: As I've argued, the default position is agnosticism ("I don't know").

I understand your sentiment here, but I'm not quite sure I agree 100%. If the default position is agnosticism then you open yourself up to a million different crazy theories in which you can only say "I don't know". It's basically giving every looney out there an undeserved sense of respectability because you are tacitly admitting that they may be right. I think it is much safer to have a default position which says "give me some credible evidence for your theory or I'm not buying it". Thus, atheism seems to be a much more reasonable position.

Anonymous said...

Bruce, keep in mind both sentences: the default position is agnosticism ("I don't know"). I don't know what to believe after the demolition is done.

The distinction here is between what I deny and what I affirm. For instance, I deny and reject Christianity (which is my focus here). There just isn't enough evidence to believe. Now that I have denied this what can I affirm? Can I affirm anything? I have not studied any other religion in as much depth as Christianity. That's what I mean when I say agnosticism is the default position when it comes to why something exists rather than nothing at all.

Anonymous said...

How agnosticism and atheism fits in my head.

I don't know if there is a god.
therefore I don't act as if there is one.
Since I don't act as if there is one,
I am atheist.

to me that is simple and elegant, no muss no fuss.

Anonymous said...

I responded to this (among other things) over here.

Eric Davison said...

The beginning of this is the standard "you aren't 100% sure, therefore you use faith too" response that I hear all the time. You're right, we can't be 100% sure about anything. So we make our best guesses given the evidence. The misunderstanding is that Ed seems to be implying that atheism means you are 100% certain that there are no gods, which (to my knowledge) no atheist claims. If you take that implicit assumption out of Ed's argument, then the whole rationale for thinking atheism is invalid falls apart.

Shygetz said...

Ed, that really was awful.

This is because it is impossible to perform one or more experiments to completely validate any scientific theory without having some level of resultant difference in the sample statistical variances for each of the sample experimental measurements. This is a simple statistical fact...

It is a physical fact, not a statistical fact. See Heisenberg.

I'm in the process of writing a book related to the subject of matter & spirit and if you can come up with anything logical to reject my argument that the intrinsic uncertainty in scientific experiments negates atheist denying that the paranormal is possible, then please enlighten me

Therefore you concede the possibility of Time Cube. You have just denied rationality by stating that all belief is justified by the fact of statistical uncertainty; why should you constrain yourself to "logical" rejections of your argument when you have rejected inductive logic wholesale? You can say nothing whatsoever about the world, as pretty much anything is possible and you can rule nothing out based on probability. All your long-winded statement has said is "I am ignorant (but of course I could be wrong about that too)." You plan on extending that into a book? While such self-effacement might be entertaining enough for a pamphlet, I do not think it will sustain a book.

The result being that no one, especially atheists, can discount the possibility, however small, that something as basic as spirit is not an attribute of matter, or even deny the overly simplistic idea that traditional versions of something like a Judea-Christian God is possible.

I can also not discount the possibility, however small, that you are a fern. Perhaps I should start writing my book on Ed H., the typing fern (since you cannot disprove it beyond all doubt, given the inherent uncertainty in measurement). It seems to be all the rage on this website...

Seriously, if you throw out all evidence-based criteria for differentiating probable and improbable conclusions from one another, then yes, you can defend Christianity, spirits, or any other fantasy you like. Of course, you must similarly also deny gravity, time, and existence itself as being unknowable, as your measurements of these things are all predicated on uncertainty.

Similarly, you cannot ever hope to reliably describe your spirits, or your God, whatsoever. I don't mean having perfect knowledge, I mean having ANY knowledge. Given that your paranormal phenomena are hiding in statistical uncertainty, we are inherently unable to say anything about them, as to describe them accurately would be to acquire data that you have DEFINED as unobtainable. If you simply assert that you can divine the paranormal through revealed knowledge, now you are left with the basic question--how do you know? You have just attested permanent and incurable ignorance, you cannot now claim to know something by revelation.

Now since dogmatic science typically includes groups like scientists without a label, secular humanists, and atheists, then the more rational members of the scientist and secular humanist communities should seriously consider discounting and divorcing themselves from atheists, and simply define themselves as agnostics.

Nope. First of all, one can be both an atheist and an agnostic (as I am). As a weak atheist, I hold no affirmative belief in any god or gods. As a weak (steadily edging toward strong) agnostic, I hold that certainty in knowledge of god or gods is currently impossible, and is almost certainly wholly impossible. You would be hard-pressed to find truly strong atheists who claim to be wholly certain that there are no gods, and those tend to base their arguments on the fact that the word "god" is undefined, not that ultra-powerful and wholly odd beings are impossible. You are erecting, tilting against, and claiming victory over a straw man.

I like to assess scientific literature and speculate about what is possible based on a selected small set of what appears to be credible correlated ideas in the metaphysical literature (metaphysical here including everything related to the paranormal)...Plus speculation naturally leads to some interesting correlations, such as: but not limited to: an apparent agreement between science and metaphysics, where the following are possible: multiple dimensions, multi-dimensional humans, a more interesting multi-dimensional description of string theory, a holographic universe, something existing before the big bang, etc.

With the exception of "multi-dimensional humans", none of the things you describe are paranormal; they are merely theoretical/hypothetical models of naturalism.

Your attempts to call Hitler an atheist speak poorly as to your education. Similarly, your attempts to pin Stalin's crimes on the fact that he did not believe in God show an abject lack of understanding. Both Hitler and Stalin used the Church and religion when it suited their purposes, and Hitler never professed to be an atheist (indeed, his writings both public and personal indicated he was not). Stalin was not an extreme atheism advocate; he was an extreme totalitarian advocate who was an atheist. He was not above using the Church to solidify his power--conversely, how many times did the church utilize atheism to solidify its power?

Thus the atheist and secular humanist focus on the religious community is not only counter productive...

Oh please, Br'er Fox, don't throw me in that there briar patch!

take such a negative adversarial position as to the religious advocates (except Muslims because their fringe groups deserve serious attention).

Ok, are you a bigot or just terribly ignorant? Did you miss the various posts here on contemporary Christian witch-hunts? The church's recent involvement in genocide? The current push in America for dominionism? The religious push against scientific education? Against vaccination of our young women against HPV? Against condoms and comprehensive sex education to fight STDs and teen pregnancy? Against equal rights for homosexual couples? None of these are based on secular values, and all of these harm their victims, often unto death. But we should just pay attention to those scary brown people, right? I'm more afraid of being assaulted by an intolerant Christian here in America than by a Muslim, and the statistics will back me up.

One important thing I learned early in my career, as an electrical engineer...

Ah-ha, I knew it! Scratch a crank and you find an engineer (and I've often wondered if the inverse was also true)...tell you what.

zilch said...

shygetz says:

Scratch a crank and you find an engineer (and I've often wondered if the inverse was also true)...

Hey, I resemble that remark! My father was an electrical engineer, my uncle a chemical engineer, and I, as an instrumentmaker, am a structural engineer, sort of. No cranks here.

But I would guess that you are right, statistically speaking. Perhaps because engineers are immersed in the products of human design, they tend to see design everywhere.

Alan in WA said...

Did Ed H, in his work in Electrical Engineering, routinely have to take into account the influence of "spirit" in his designs?

Anonymous said...

Ed H responded as follows:

RESPONSES FOR 26, 27 JANUARY 2008 POSTED ON THE "BLOGGER: DEBUNKING CHRISTIANITY

Posted in response to Bruce, the numerous Boggy-man advocates, the clueless, and a few thoughtful responders; thank-you all, because I sincerely appreciate the time you've taken, and it's been not only informative for me, but has given me a small statistical sample to measure how screwed up some people's version of reality can became.

Bruce (2:13Am; 012608) You were the first to point out that I blew it when I assumed that Hitler was an atheist (a dumb mistake). Unfortunately in my haste to point out the obvious that atheism has problems, I got sloppy and didn't take an extra 5-minutes to find out that Hitler apparently claimed he was a Catholic until he died. But Bruce, for you to dismiss Stalin just because he didn't believe in God is simplistic? Apparently you seem to think that Stalin's actions were not correlated in any way with respect to the atrocities he authorized and was partially responsible for. I also assume that you think that atheism has had virtually no correlated role in past or present atrocities and genocides. However, you've did bring up a very interesting key issue, i.e., concerning the relationship between a belief in whether something like spirit is, or is not an attribute of matter, and how that relates to things like morality and ethics, I don't see how you can divorce the two because practically everyone in our society has some measure of ethical and moral values, and I agree with you that obviously Hitler and Stalin weren't humanists, but by their definition of humanist, and if they were asked, they may have even thought they were humanists. As for Secular humanists, they base their positions on rational thinking and typically on the equivalent of traditional religious values cleansed of anything related to the paranormal. I assume that the vast majority of religious and atheist advocates follow something akin to traditional ethical and moral principals, but you cannot discount the fact that atheism in your fringe membership has contributed to past and even present atrocities and genocides, irrespective of what your group's average moral and ethical positions are. And all of our average moral and ethical positions and laws are highly correlated to traditional religious values, even though they have been transformed/evolved from earlier cultures.

The position you raise suggesting that just because Stalin was an atheist, it doesn't mean that the atrocities he committed were due to his atheism is very interesting. However, this is only the tip of the iceberg of a somewhat complicated multivariate statistical issue, in that attempting to even quantify the contribution for genocides for extreme examples like Stalin or religious extremists, you can ask which factors might be dominate in their contribution to atrocities. Now you only alluded to two categories: (1) a disbelief in, or a belief in God, and (2) issues like ethical and moral principles. However, you seem to have automatically rejected the point, that just because Stalin was an atheist, this had nothing to do with the atrocities he has been associated with. I could make a comparable argument dismissing all of the Catholic Popes and other historical religious authorities that have been shown to be directly responsible for past atrocities and genocides. Your position is just a first-order obvious example of religious and atheist extremists not taking full responsibility for their dogmatic positions.

Next for your: ".....burden of proof." Some of (us) has it and one of us doesn't, I'll let you guess who." Bruce, you still don't get the simple fact that no one "has it," and it's impossible for any one to demonstrate that they have it. Again understand this simple fact, i.e., that every experiment that any scientist has, or will ever perform, will always have some measure of uncertainty. This is an indisputable fact. You can state that you feel more confident because your position is based on 20-decimal points of accuracy, but you still may be wrong, just admit it.

And this stupid position that atheists take (rejecting spirit in matter) seems to be simply because they are all rapped up in the boggy-man religious right, and the traditional definition of God. Keep it simple; all we need to address is whether the paranormal is an attribute of matter. Your position is that it isn't, and my position is that it is. While "it is," is probably impossible to improve when applying the rational of scientific method, it's also clearly impossible to deny that the paranormal doesn't exist. And my position is based on the simple fact that there will always be an intrinsic uncertainty in any scientific hypothesis or theory that anyone has ever, or will ever be made, and this fact will never change -- period.

I'm not denying the value of science, because I've loved working as an engineer most of my life where everything is fundamentally based on science, and where I've had the personal rewards of using my creativity to design electronic equipment that had to perform under severe environment conditions where one system had total error requirements of 30-parts per million per year for extreme variations in temperature, 100-g shock, and vibration. I appreciate the past and continued contributions of science to technology, but all of our scientific theories will still continue to evolve. Evolution has been the past history of scientific theories and there is no evidence that change will not continue into the future. Even now many of our major theories related to physics and cosmology are in a state of flux and alteration because while some have one or more correlations with one another, none even come close to explaining a theory of everything or All-That-Is, and there are still numerous unanswered questions, as there will always be. Haven't you noticed in your own life's experience that when you assess one problem, or model and simulate a process, that you frequently end up finding ten other unanswered related problems, and/or un-simulated sub-processes. Defining physical reality is an analogy of this situation in that mankind's somewhat empirical approximation of the physical universe will obviously become a better approximation of reality over time, but we will never be able to completely define physical reality.

And as for knocking myself out through speculation, apparently I did a poor job of describing my position, that is, speculation appears to be the only possible way to draw any reasonable correspondence between matter and spirit, or for the paranormal. All you have to do, and this doesn't require anything more difficult than an ostrich removing his head from the sand, is to survey what is allowable based on our present scientific theories, and compare those possibilities with what has been recorded in the metaphysical literature over the last 100-years, or since the advent of recorded history. Many people will find some comparisons like this very compelling. Oh, I know your bias probably favors the strict application of rational logic and the scientific method, and you can probably selectively nit-pick and reject any possible correlation (I can too), but the problem with your position where you'd probably claim something like: "I've got 20-decimal points to support my position and you have none," is that atheism is fundamentally flawed, as are the extremes of traditional religion, because both of you believe that you have the only answer for reality, and this is part of the reason why atheistic and religious dogmatic extremism has caused human misery throughout the ages. The bottom line here is that all atheists have going for them, are so many decimal points to support a position that something like God doesn't exist. And all you have to do is look at the typical dogma in any religion to come to a similar conclusion, e.g., even a religious and credible scientist like Francis Collins when backed into a corner, simply points to the New testament as the ultimate authority. The bottom line here still is: that when atheists deny the possibility of the paranormal or any version of God, this is fundamentally irrational. If an agnostic does this, then it's obviously logical.


Now as far as knocking myself out speculating, speculation appears to be the only rational way to relate physical reality to the paranormal. For example, one credible version of string theory allows the existence of "something" before the big bang, and someone with a religious orientation could interpret that "something" as being God, but for me defining God that way is archaic. Another interesting speculation by a leading English physicist is that we humans are multidimensional. These are only two examples, but there are also other metaphysical ones that have an interesting potential correlation with scientific ideas. If it's in the metaphysical literature then it's related to the paranormal. Now while most of the metaphysical literature obviously has very limited value and isn't concerned with science, there are an interesting small number of examples in metaphysics that are compatible with science.

Oh I know finding a few correlated examples doesn't necessarily prove anything when there are many others examples that are obviously uncorrelated and/or bogus. But assessing the true merit of speculation, or for explaining isolated cases is another interesting topic that is not the central issue here.

Lee Randolph (2:41 and 3:25; 01-26-2008) Here we aren't talking about assessing the merit of different hypotheses or theories. That isn't even the issue. It's far simpler than that. Yes, you can reasonably deduce that any "...hypothesis is correct to some degree." Science has been slowly evolving over this past 2,000-years in something like a random walk, and since about the 15th century progress has proceeded much more rapidly in more of a linear direction with the goal to arrive at an approximation of reality. Scientists recently have done more than a fair job as evidenced by the success of our technology. And yes we always have the option of looking at new ways to enlighten us, and now is a good time for that in light of the major problems with most of our major scientific theories. Lee, I'm impressed since you at least appear to understand my basic arguments. Why are you even on this stupid Blogger?

Zilch (4:53AM: 01-26-2008) Zilch, yes all religions are clearly invalid unless you remove most of the obvious dogma from their positions like Thomas Jefferson attempted to do in his Jefferson Bible, and for example, with respect to Catholicism, where if you eliminate dogma like Christ is God and divine, his mother is a virgin, etc., and for atheism, where it is clearly an irrational and unreasonable position to deny something you can't prove, specifically that spirit is not an element of matter. This atheist issue is such an elementary concept because: You simply cannot perform any two independent experiments that do not result in some level of uncertainty. This is a fact, and being an agnostic gets you around this stupid atheist position that the paranormal cannot possibly be an attribute of matter. I don't care how much atheists rationalize their position based on what I like to call "intellectual masturbation" (that pseudo intellectual technique psychologists and psychiatrists routinely use to justify psychology as a science), the fact is that atheism is fundamentally an invalid concept, and is nothing more than a form of dogmatic science.

Here I'm not suggesting that all of the stupid metaphysical ideas out there have merit, or that we need to accept other humorous ones like you've suggested where meatballs could conceivably be in orbit around Mars, or other dumb concepts that saturate metaphysics and psychology, and other near and pseudo sciences. However, while I loved your meatball analogy, why not keep that one on the back burner until we get all of the facts, because, while this is only one criterion, I doubt whether past Mars probes have had sufficient resolution to isolate a meatball in the Martian atmosphere (just kidding), I'm not suggesting that we abandon rationale thinking while in the pursuit of approximating reality using science, because we have been given the gift of brains and being able to think rationally,

Now what about the other side of our nature, the paranormal? Here philosophers have been debating that topic possibly since the time of the australopithecines, and as an aside, even Schopenhauer called man (two separate quotes):

Man "The metaphysical animal": other animals desire without metaphysics......And nothing is more provoking, when we are arguing against a man with reasons and explanations, and taking all pains to convince him, than to discover at last that he will not understand, that we have to do with his will,"

Therefore, the uselessness of logic is evident, because no one has ever convinced anybody by logic. However, Zilch is your will so biased that you can't see the obvious, that experimental uncertainty is a serious obstacle to defining yourself as an atheist? What's wrong with calling yourself an agnostic? This is totally logical and consistent with science.

Goprairie (5:58PM: 01-26-2008) You are clueless and have completely missed my points.

Evan (11:24AM; 01-26-2006) Your assessment is so off base that it boggles my mind, and while it contains an interesting observation concerning mental illness, it has nothing to do with the fact that scientific experiments have an uncertainty that can never be removed. You have to be out to lunch to not understand this simple concept. This concept is present in every elementary book on statistics.

Kb9ain said (4:51PM; 01-26-2008) I have never meant to dismiss the scientific method or what enlightenment science has brought to us in terms of helping us come to some empirical approximation as to what is truly reality. Some of my other preceding comments address your other responses, and your focus on traditional Christianity needs to be reassigned to radical Muslims because they are by far the major problem now. And yes I screwed up because Hitler apparently was a Catholic.

Bruce (4:14PM, 01-26-2008) Thank-you, you are clearly one the more rational ones on this blogger. If someone rejects the concept that uncertainty in experiments is not a problem, and then this same person declares he or she is an atheist, then atheism has to be simply classified as an archaic, and/or dogmatic, or a pseudo science. And yes if you call yourself an agnostic you still have to reject crackpot ideas, but then that is the same challenge we all face. Science has had this same problem assessing theories, but the consistent application of the scientific method has pretty much solved that problem, even though in modern times, some failed scientific ideas persisted for time periods of typically 3 to 5-years, or longer, before they were proven wrong. However, it's also obvious that science will never be able to unravel the truth underlying for the ultimate reality of matter because there will always uncertainty. And forget about science finding any real answers related to the paranormal, because that isn't science's job anyway. However, science can actually give us some limited insight into the paranormal, e.g., where one version of string theory suggests that there could have been something before the big bang. For me, what is good enough, is to rationalize a relationship existing between science and metaphysical concepts based on speculating what is scientifically possible. Note that here you are restricted in your search to the rational: "what is possible based on science" then you will automatically be restricted to focus on a more reasonable subset of credible scientific possibilities. Please read my prior discussion where I've attempted to clarify some of these issues. This subject is a real challenge to simplify because you need to integrate several major areas, but not limited to, philosophy, science, and metaphysics.


Lee Randolph (Again, 2:22AM; 01-22-2008) Bruce go to bed.

Eric d (7:06PM; 01-27-2008) This doesn't make any sense. One problem with the definition of atheism is that it needs to be revised. It's too limited by just relating it to something like a Judea-Christian God. Use the keep-it-simple-stupid (KISS) approach, i.e., just relate any definition of atheism you come up with to matter and the paranormal.

shygetz (7:06PM; 01-27-2008) Do I understand you correctly: are you telling me that someone can perform two independent and equivalent experiments about the same phenomenon, and without knowing the parent population statistical mean and variance, that they can then come to the conclusion that there will be no uncertainty between the two small or large sample statistical results? And what has this got to do with the Heisenberg uncertainty principal? Heisenberg was simply making a statement about anyone being able to accurately measuring the property and position of an atomic particle in an experiment at the same time. Yes taking a statistical sample produces something akin to a physical fact, because all physical experiments produce something you see, measure, and can record. What are you talking about; I'm not denying rationality? Any scientist or analyst who applies statistical techniques to arrive at a judgment about something, e.g., a process -- models and analyzes the process, and after conducting experiments and/or simulations can end up with a probability and/or confidence statement in order to support doing something. And there is always uncertainty in the result -- so what? This has nothing to do with crackpot concepts, as you seem to think I'm advocating.

Anyway, it's a no-brainer to reject crackpot stuff. It's only the paranoid atheists and your remote cousins; the secular humanists (who should divorce themselves from atheism) that rely on science and think you need to isolate yourself from the nut cases. They are nothing more than an irritation and aren't even a major problem.

Oh, you sneaky devil, and now you've even weaseled your way out of being classified as a pure atheist by claiming you are a combination weak-atheist/agnostic. I love that one; this is too funny, thank-you for the comedy routine.

You claim that multiple dimensions aren't attributes of the paranormal? Since when do we have any scientific or empirical evidence that other universes or dimensions even exist, or that the umpteen orders of magnitude of added energy needed to even validate them can even be made available without using our sun as an energy source? I don't have a problem with someone speculating about what is reasonable based on science including concluding that that we are multidimensional humans, but I find it more interesting when comparable ideas like this have been reported in the metaphysical literature well before any reputable mainstream scientists have made their more sterile comments. Oh I know you may find some reputable or obscure literature reference where a scientist, science fiction author, or someone else has come up with an idea before that in metaphysics. But so what, because who knows where we get our creative ideas. And this paragraph really has nothing to do with my basic argument that the majority of the members of your dogmatic science, the ostriches like you, and the other members of religious communities have been at least partially responsibility for past atrocities and genocides.


And since you are obviously more concerned about the boggy-man Christian right than the Muslim threat throughout the world, I have to conclude that you obviously are in La-la land.

Finally, and to all of you who have already responded to my original dialog, please don't waste any more of your time, and my time by responding to this discussion unless you have something reasonably intelligent to enlighten me with. The reason I'm making this plea is because I've already learned my lesson and I don't want to spend any more time communicating with people who still believe in the boggy-man, and because I also get enough of this cage-rattling secular nonsense from the most respected big fish among secular humanists, Dr. Paul Kurtz, Philosopher, founder and still affiliated with the Skeptical Inquirer.

Kurtz is constantly on the paranoia bandwagon where his paranoia is consistently directed through monthly newsletters at helpless, and flaky religious right-wingers, and somewhat misguided intelligent design advocates. Now if he really had any balls he should also add some of you guys to his targeted groups (just kidding).

God this has been was fun, and this experience reminds me of a scene from Mel Brooks original "Producers" movie from the 1960's where Zero Mostel (he was fantastic in that role as a producer), looks into the camera, and asks something like:

"How do these people find me?"

Well that was in the 1960's, and now in 2008, all you have to do is to naively expose yourself to a Web Blogger filled with anti-religious fanatics, and they'll hit the fan for you.

To the minority among you who are not still not devout atheists, please find something more productive to do with your life than supporting atheism, secular humanism, and focusing on the religious right on this Blogger, because Europe is already in the toilet, and the dominant radical Muslims there are already well on their way to achieving their goal of taking over all of the major countries in secular Europe. If you don't believe me just watch one of the videos on the Web where they recently had a big demonstration at or near London. You need to understand that one reason this country is still the greatest experiment in approximating democracy in the history of mankind is because about 85% of our USA citizens still believe in a Judea-Christian version of God, and while my ideas are very different, it's probably very important that we are still basically a Christian nation. While we obviously have a Muslim problem here, it's probably only 2-orders of magnitude (1/100) less than what they are experiencing in Europe.

And now your group on the Blogger has someone like Zilch who claims he's more concerned about the religious right, than the radical Islamic minority, and he lists a paragraph of threats attributed to the religious right. I hope he's atypical. His concerns are so exaggerated it's ridiculous. Take the time and review the free article about the Muslim threat on the Paul Kurtz Web site. What the author actually discusses is the problem with the religious right, and not the radical Muslims -- so much for the cream-of-the-crop misguided secular humanists

Now for the rest of you pathetic losers, take your best shots,

Ed. H

zilch said...

I hardly know where to start, but I'd like to clear up one thing first. Ed, you say:

And now your group on the Blogger has someone like Zilch who claims he's more concerned about the religious right, than the radical Islamic minority, and he lists a paragraph of threats attributed to the religious right.

Ed, do you mean someone like me, or someone such as me? Perhaps someone who is like me in some ways (maybe we share atheism and an appreciation for the absurdity in our lives) said something of the sort here; but I never have, as far as I recall. Link, please. I, personally, am concerned about all manifestations of radical religiosity, since they feed off one another, and I couldn't say that I'm more worried about one than another. Moving on- Ed, you say:

However, Zilch is your will so biased that you can't see the obvious, that experimental uncertainty is a serious obstacle to defining yourself as an atheist? What's wrong with calling yourself an agnostic?

If you prefer to save the term "atheist" for those who believe to be 100% certain that there is no God, you can go ahead and call me an agnostic. No skin off my nose- I don't really care what label I'm called, as long as my position is understood. But you're in good company- Frank Walton, over at AtheismSucks!, is a real stickler on this point too: he says that since practically no atheists claim 100% certainty that there is no God (I'll agree with him there), we should call ourselves "fake atheists". He uses the Argument from Etymology, claiming that the "a" of "atheism" means "without".

Now, there's a lot to be said for honoring original meanings, but in the first place, my philologist friend Stefan says that the Greek "a" can mean either "not" or "lacking". Not only that, but if we want to get picky, I could also call the Holy Ghost "silly" without being impious, since the original meaning of "silly", if you go back far enough, is "blessed" (cognate with modern German "selig", which still means "blessed"). Whatever. What's important is agreed-upon meanings.

I prefer to call myself an "atheist", because I do not believe in God, in the same way that I do not believe in Santa Claus: I cannot prove that God, or Santa, do not exist; but I very strongly suspect, and live my life as though, they do not. Bertrand Russell said:

As a philosopher, if I were speaking to a purely philosophic audience I should say that I ought to describe myself as an Agnostic, because I do not think that there is a conclusive argument by which one can prove that there is not a God.

On the other hand, if I am to convey the right impression to the ordinary man in the street I think I ought to say that I am an Atheist, because when I say that I cannot prove that there is not a God, I ought to add equally that I cannot prove that there are not the Homeric gods.


And I would add to the Homeric gods the meatball in orbit around Mars. This is pretty close to Lee Randolph's position:

I don't know if there is a god.
therefore I don't act as if there is one.
Since I don't act as if there is one,
I am atheist.


Ed- how would you describe your postion about the FSM- atheistic, or agnostic? Your position vis-à-vis the FSM is probably the same as mine regarding God and spirit.

You say:

I'm not suggesting that we abandon rationale thinking while in the pursuit of approximating reality using science, because we have been given the gift of brains and being able to think rationally,

That's why I'm an atheist, and a naturalist: rational thinking, and the evidence so far, have led me to reject the paranormal. You go on:

Now what about the other side of our nature, the paranormal?

Uh, what paranormal? Do you mean Uri Geller? Just because people want to believe that spirit, or ghosts, or paranormal powers exist, doesn't show that they do, or that they should be considered any more likely than leprechauns. Lack of disproof is not proof of existence, and there's ample evidence of wishful thinking, and fear, concocting entities out of nothing.

One last thing. You sound like an intelligent person. But you are not likely to get very far by calling people "pathetic losers", or making silly unsupported statements, such as "Europe is already in the toilet". I live in Europe, and while much good and bad could be said about Europe in comparison to the US, saying that we are "in the toilet" is pretty rich. I'll just say "Bush" and "Iraq" and leave it at that.

cheers from Vienna, zilch.

P.S. No hard feelings. If you're ever in town, drop me a line, and the drinks are on me.

Anonymous said...

Hi Ed,
Lee, I'm impressed since you at least appear to understand my basic arguments. Why are you even on this stupid Blogger?
Thank you for the kind words, but
I didn't read your whole email.

I am on this stupid blogger to provide a contrast to people like you who base world views on assumptions rather than presumptions or fact, speak in generalities, avoid thinking about the qualifiers in issues including morality and make unwarranted demeaning comments about cultures you are not qualified to judge.

Anonymous said...

Lee said...I am on this stupid blogger to provide a contrast to people like you who base world views on assumptions rather than presumptions or fact, speak in generalities, avoid thinking about the qualifiers in issues including morality and make unwarranted demeaning comments about cultures you are not qualified to judge.

;-)

That's Lee for ya, and I like it!