How Human Reasoning Makes Or Breaks the Biblical God of Miracles

When it comes to Biblical faith, the Bible is equal to a chemical catalyst (a substance that increases the rate of a chemical reaction without itself undergoing any change). By this I mean that if the Christian believer has the will to believe, then this person also has the ability to explain away exactly why either God or prayer fails to work, or explain a positive random event as the will of God or an answer to prayer.

An example of the Bible as a catalyst would be the story of the Prophet Elijah on Mount Carmel squaring off with the 450 heathen prophets of Baal (and 400 heathen prophets of Asherah: I‘m not sure what happen to them ( 1 Kings 18: 20 -40)).

I can not count the times I heard this preached on at Bob Jones University and in many Baptist churches as an example of what faith in the true God can do. Hey, we all know lighting is a destructive force and how even Jesus (Luke 9: 54) just as Luke in Acts has Paul ( Acts 9: 3 -9 = Acts 22: 6 - 11 = Act\s 26:12 -18) seeing such forces of nature as miracles from God.

On the other hand, I have never heard the wild, but equally truthful Biblical story of Jacob tricking Laban out of his flock by peeling the bark off a stick and placing it near the animal‘s watering hole to cause the breeding animals to produce striped, speckled, and spotted offspring:

“Then Jacob took fresh rods of poplar and almond and plane trees, and peeled white stripes in them, exposing the white which was in the rods. He set the rods which he had peeled in front of the flocks in the gutters, even in the watering troughs, where the flocks came to drink; and they mated when they came to drink. So the flocks mated by the rods, and the flocks brought forth striped, speckled, and spotted." (Genesis 30: 37 - 39).

But whether one story is preached on a lot to show the power of God while the second story in avoided like the plague from the pulpit; as for as the Bible is concerned, they show the power of faith in men blessed by God.

So, if one believes the Bible as written form Genesis to Revelation, it does not matter whether if Elijah is facing down the 400 prophets of Baal on Mt. Carmel; Jacob peeling the bark off a stick to make the DNA in animals mutate and produce weirdly marked offspring or Jesus coming back from the dead on the third day, as for as the Bible goes, they all carry equal Biblical truths or Biblical facts.

Now, since these Biblical stories of God working miracles in the past must be accepted on faith if one is to be a Christian (a point we hear all the time from comments posted here at DC), for the faithful and unquestioning Christian, this Biblical catalyst will set in motion human denial of the logical for the religious mind that believes God can and does act today though miracles just as he did in the Bible. Since the believing Christian can not “Throw the baby out with the bath water”, then the miracle of Jacob’s peeled sticks carries the same miracle truth as the resurrection of Jesus; though not the same theological importance.

We usually hear stories from survivors who have experienced an acute situation in which God has saved their life. This is often heard on radio and television newscast following a plane crash in which religious people give tanks to their God for sparing their lives.

If the entire human life on the plane is spared (as was the case of US Airways Flight 1549 landing in the Hudson River in New York recently) then the catalytic Bible with its miracle stories of faith seems to vindicate itself.

However, when an entire plane goes down, leaving no survivors at all or when over half the passengers are killed during a crash, we only hear the praises to God from the humans still alive and able to talk while the majority of passengers killed are strangely pushed aside and silently left out of the miracle of God’s protection in this equation.

As noted above, an acute situation does not leave one time to relax and think logically, but rather the suddenness of the situation makes it a “Knee Jerk Reaction” based on a cry for help from the divine realm ( the old “there are no atheists in a foxhole” reaction).

On the other hand, doing a chronic or long term situation, one has more time to weight in on the Biblical claims and this mostly leads the victim to conclude both God and the Biblical miracle stories just don’t work.

An example of this is my 14 year old daughter went into End Stage Renal Failure in 1999. I vividly remember the night she and her Renal Nurse came home from choosing a peritoneal dialyzer and how she cried stating that she had to pick out a machine she had to be hooked up to every night to remain alive for the rest of her life.

I also remember the good intentions of the many churches which formed Prayer Chains for my daughter’s recovery. I recall the night a pastor stopped by to assure her that God loves her and will take care of her. But I was even more struck by her response to this pastor. She said: “I love my cats and dog and I take care of them because I love them. If God loves me, then why didn’t He take care of my kidneys?” The pastor just stood there.

Again, in contrast to the acute plane crash situation, the chronically afflicted victim has had time to be exposed to God though faith and prayer and has rightly reasoned that they are basically among the dead passengers in a plane crash.

To further prove my point concerning the chronically afflicted victim and their lack of faith in God and the Biblical catalytic miracle stories; every two years we attend the Transplant Games where people who have had kidney, heart-lung, pancreas, bowel, liver and other donor organs (from both living and dead people (given so that others facing chronic illness and death can live)) attend to celebrate life by competing in athletic competition of life and friendship. The ages of these people include anywhere form a one year old child to 80 plus senior citizens.

As a former seminary student and preacher, I wanted to see how these transplant patients (most must take 20 plus pills per day the rest of their life to keep from rejecting their life giving organ) felt about God and religion.

To experience this on a large scale, I attended both the Opening and Closing Ceremonies in which up to 3,000 transplant patients attended and where many gave talks about life and the wonders of modern medicine and their loving thankfulness to the donor families.

Nowhere, and I repeat, nowhere, and at no time was there ever a prayer offered at these opening and closing events! Nowhere and at no time did anyone in these two hour plus ceremonies ever mention, thank or praise God, Jesus or religion as making it possible for them to live (instead, and contrary to the Bible, they praised “sinful man” and his works).

Unlike the acute person who “Finds God” in a panic during a passing time of trouble, these former long term chronically ill transplant people have seen the failure of God, prayer and religion in their lives. Many of the children and youth see themselves born (or created) by the very God the Bible and churches exhort them to turn to. They know and have first hand experience of the futility of religion and Biblical miracles. (Sorry District Supt. Harvey Burnett!)


While the Bible and its God labels humanity as sinful and in need of salvation that can only come from faith and God, these thousands upon thousands of transplanted people know as a fact, that without modern doctors and drugs, they would be just another head stone in some cemetery waiting for Jesus to come back in just another failed Biblically based miracle promise.

33 comments:

Anonymous said...

Hi Harry,
great article.
I just want to add that this article describes the results of Cognitive Bias. Wikipedia has a link with a long list of them, and I recommend that everyone read it and get familiar with them.
Wikipedias List of Cognitive Biases

Its not so important to be familiar with them for debunking christianity, but it is more important to be familiar with them because they reduce the quality and the number of successful outcomes in day to day living.

People should recognize, avoid them, and know how to deal with them when someone in the organization is using them to make decisions.

Anonymous said...

Here's another good one that I just found on google.
I recognized the "zero-risk bias" as something that went on a work recently.

26 Reasons why what you think is right is wrong

New Family Bureau said...

I recall those who survived the 9-11 attack expressing their belief that God had spared them for a reason. They were unintentionally presuming that God had no further purpose for those who did not survive.

My spin on Elijah during my 12-year tenure as a Baptist pastor went something like this: "We 'call down fire from heaven' by allowing the Holy Spirit to demonstrate his power through the fruit of the Spirit being made evident in our lives."

Ironically, those I knew who best demonstrated the fruit of the Spirit were atheists.

Anonymous said...

I am so sorry to learn of this Harry. Whenever I think I have it rough I must remember people like your daughter. But there are lessons to be learned from her story and I thank you for sharing them here. Yes, the victims must be allowed to speak as well as people who are "rescued."

Although I once believed it indeed baffles me to think I did and that rational people like myself believed this nonsense. Daily I try to figure out how to best communicate to the believer how it isn't reasonable to believe, but a story like this may do the most good.

Thanks!

T said...

I loved this line, "instead, and contrary to the Bible, they praised “sinful man” and his works."

Science has been my salvation. Like Harry, my own child is kept alive by the "miracle" of science. My son was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes just 3 weeks ago. Had he been born more than 75 years ago, he would have simply died a slow and agonizing death as did all the type 1 diabetics of the past.

Had this occurred in my delusion days, I would have prayed feverishly for God to intervene. A process that would have only led to frustration, anger, and slowed the acceptance process.

For the majority of history humankind has lived devoid of science. The majority have died of sickness and disease that we can now cure. If there were a God who cared and was able to act then I would have imagined he would have given us the scientific method from the beginning. In fundamentalism I was raised to believe that humans are getting more sinful. Amazing, isn't it, that the more "sinful" we become, the better the quality of life has become.

So, I am thankful to science above all for my son who is going to live a long and happy life with his insulin pump, but I am also thankful to science because it caused me to realize how completely delusional Christianity is.

Harry H. McCall said...

Lee,

Thanks for the great references which add weight to the points I made in my post.

Because Christians “Love God and Jesus” it so hard to say NO! to illogical thinking.

Harry H. McCall said...

Thanks Kenn.

Anyone of us who have ever stood in a pulpit and preached know this now, but hind sight is 20/20.

Harry H. McCall said...

John, it’s like I’ve convinced you that I have ten million dollars in a bank account left for you in my Will.

But to get this money, you must show be all your caring love, take care of me in my old age and generally just be there the rest of my life when ever need you.

Now, you can either totally take me on just my word (as Christian take the Bible via faith at its word alone) or you can go to the bank and have the bank verify at least 9.5 million of it exists(which all banks will do).

But most Christian will tell you they are just perfectly happy with hoping the Streets of Gold exist and Jesus really has built them a room in his Father's mansion.

But unlike the cheated Will recipient who screams to world about being cheated and lied to, the Christian dead are eternally silent.

Harry H. McCall said...

Toby,

Thanks so very much for sharing this with all of us here at DC.

As a father, one’s heart breaks knowing that our children face a chronic illness, but we can be eternally thankful in the advancement of modern science which carries with it true hope for a better tomorrow.

Sincerely,
Harry

Dark_Karl said...

Hello. Um, just wanted to provide some feedback from a structural biologist who is also very definitely Catholic in form of worship, but not necessarily so in political alignment particularly with regards to the policies of the Vatican. I mean this to be a disclaimer that I may not use the same language you social science folks may use, despite the fact that I have made my own extensive investigations regarding the religion.
Actually, regarding your discussions about Christianity, when you consider it as a religion, exactly what do you mean by that?
Do you mean its philosophical underlying structure (including belief in miracles, supernatural or otherwise) or the corpus of followers and the political institution that has grown around it? I believe it's necessary to draw a line between these two, as much as you have to draw a line between ideal forms (as Plato would have it) and mundane reality...
Have a nice day!

strangebrew said...

'Christianity, when you consider it as a religion, exactly what do you mean by that?
Do you mean its philosophical underlying structure (including belief in miracles, supernatural or otherwise) or the corpus of followers and the political institution that has grown around it?'



Can they actually be separated...seems it is not possible to have one without the other...two heads...same coin?

Host said...

Nearly everything christians in the united states are thankful for is the result of science, not some capricious god.

They thank god for providing food for them to eat, which they bought and paid for from their own work.

They thank god for having freedom and democracy, which came from their deist "founding fathers".

They thank god for their military that protects them, which comes from technology produced from science.

They thank god for life, which is given to them from their parents.

I can go on and on, but christians are totallt clueless, their god provides nothing for them. All their god provides is a false hope, one day he is going to come back, even though it has been 2,000 years, he will come back. When he does he will give me eternal life.

Science will give you eternal life before your god does.

Sure is strange that their wonder working god always coincidentally provides for them, and performs miracles, in such a way that makes it appear to have completely human origins.

Why no more undisputable biblical type miracles taking place?

Host said...

Sorry, just saw this and had to add it...

It is science who gives sight to the blind, not Jesus

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/4932382/Bionic-eye-lets-the-blind-see.html

It is science which causes the deaf to hear, not Jesus...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/4932382/Bionic-eye-lets-the-blind-see.html

Wake up christians, it is science that improves people's lives, not Jesus

Host said...

Oops, hear is the link for causing the deaf, to hear...

http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2009/03/04/emoti-chair.html

lee said...

"Hello. Um, just wanted to provide some feedback from a structural biologist who is also very definitely Catholic in form of worship, but not necessarily so in political alignment particularly with regards to the policies of the Vatican."

Doesn't this sentence really make you a protestant who attends a catholic church?

lee said...

"All their god provides is a false hope, one day he is going to come back, even though it has been 2,000 years, he will come back."

On the Island of Tanna in Vanuatu, when the islanders were presented the gospel of Jesus, they refused it in favor of their WWII cult of John Frum. Their response when told that John Frum wasn't coming back was, You've been waiting on your god for two thousand years...... we've only been waiting on John for 50.

Harry H. McCall said...

Well put Deist Dan!

Christianity needs one lie to support another lie...the Bible and its bastard brain child: Theology!

Here is an oddity. When I grew up in the Lutheran church, we confessed our sins to the Lord.
The other day I read in their liturgy the statement: "Dearly Beloved; let us confess our sins one to another."

As Deist Dan has so clearly pointed out about giving due thanks in prayer, we should thank ourselves for giving us our own God!

Harry H. McCall said...

Lee,
I would conclude that the sect on the island of Tanna in Vanuatu call spade a spade! After all the Bible demands the truth.

Funny thing is that Elijah's sarcastic remarks in 1 Kings 18 to the Prophets of Baal have come home to roost with the failed return of Jesus!

District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...

(sorry I had to correct some spelling from a previous version)

Aiight Harry,

You KNOW right off hand I sympathize for your daughter and your families struggle as much as anyone. I appreciate you sharing your story...

Now to the point that you're making...In the mind of the Christian, God is responsible for the good while being held harmless for the bad. That's the argument in essence.

I know it's fightin' words around here , but I continue to say that one cannot overlook the #1 element that brought all the destruction and death that we observe to painful reality...and that was SIN...more than that. It was actually what the bible calls unbelief...The "SIN" wasn't smokin' or drinkin' the SIN was UNBELIEF...failure to simply believe God for what he said. That was Adam's(mankind's) choice as well as Eve's. They simply CHOSE not to believe.

Now say what you want about that.
I know there are other posts dealing with other aspects of this, but SIN is the root cause of all suffering...Now, [if I'm right about this]the quagmire exists that many astute individuals such as yourself, cannot reconcile how God that says he loves us can allow us to live and continue to experience that practical pain and results of that sin...BUT, since I'm, for the most part, talking to backslidden preachers and ministers, I can only say that NOBODY is exempt from the pain of sin...

I propose this...Even Jesus, whom the bible records as being sinless, was NOT exempt from both the pain and punishment of SIN. Jesus was hurt over the death of loved ones just like you and I...In fact John 11:35 is the shortest verse in the bible that brings this to light. That same set of verses deal with your question...it says:

John 11:36-37~ "36-Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him! 37-And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?"

All the elements of your complaint are present. Love contrasted with death, pain and suffering and the question HOW and WHY...

To make a long story short Jesus demonstrates his power over it all. Both in that chapter and in HIS resurrection...No, it's not the "serve my need now" that we all want at times but it's more real and more lasting than that...

So what you say I'm deluded, I think the same of many of you for unbelief...so now we even huh?

Short story, none of these things are easy but that doesn't negate the supernatural power of God...and beside that Harry...I have my own experience also...

Thanks...

Host said...

Harvey,

It is hard to see how this story shows how jesus suffered from the effects of sin, you forgot the beginning of the story...

Joh 11:4 But when Jesus heard it he said, "This illness does not lead to death. It is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it."
Joh 11:5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus.
Joh 11:6 So, when he heard that Lazarus was ill, he stayed two days longer in the place where he was.

Jesus said this illness was for god's glory, as in god caused it so he could show off with his son, and thus glorify himself.

Jesus then waits a couple more days to make sure he is good and dead. Why does jesus then cry when he finds out he is dead? Because jesus was a phony.

Actually the unknown author made up the whole thing based on how he wanted jesus to be. As Ehrman points out, john makes jesus talk all about himself instead of the imminent coming of the kingdom of god as in the other gospels. the false john gospel is all about heavenly jesus and a heavenly realm for his heavenly disciples to go to. he says he wrote the whole thing to convince you that jesus is the son of god (john 20:31). he isnt conveying actual history.

Harry H. McCall said...

Harvey, Deist Dan just nailed your butt to the wall on your use of the Gospel of John.

Anyway, sin is simply an over worked excuse to keep God holy and humanity down and religious.

Thanks for responding.

Regards,
Harry

District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...

Dan,

In reference to John 11:4, you said this:

"Jesus said this illness was for god's glory, as in god caused it so he could show off with his son, and thus glorify himself."

You seem to misunderstand what you read because in no way does he say that God "caused" it...He says "for HIS glory, so that the Son Of Man (a divine title) may be glorified through it"

2 things, not to get sidetracked, IF God is who we Christians proclaim him to be, how could ANYTHING happen aside from his knowledge and out of his view and foreknowledge??? That's what this ascribes, NOT the cause of the illness but the one who supercedes and transcends the illness... Secondly, the "glory" that a first century jew would have understood ONLY belonged to God, YET this passage teaches that "glory" was to be ascribed to Jesus...This is a matter of divinity being ascribed to Jesus who later demonstarated the power of that title or ascription.

To clarify, you say:

"Jesus then waits a couple more days to make sure he is good and dead. Why does jesus then cry when he finds out he is dead? Because jesus was a phony."

Yea and he was the same "phony" that then proceeds to call a 4 day old dead man BACK to life...This is a demonstration of his authority over death and life ie DEITY.

The crying was the humanity of the divine God/Man acknowledging acquaintence with our natural limitations and human condition...That's pretty simple...Hebrews says, 4:15 ~ " 15-For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

He (Jesus) has felt our passions and frustrations. That qualifies him in identity with humanity.

So far as the John tyrade...Old hat and old news...the gospel wasn't anonymous as skeptics such as yourself prescribe and there was ultimatey no progression of gnostic concepts as many of you guys state. In fact the evidence itself negates against your arguments on both accounts BUT, that's another story, so I won't venture into that too much here.

Harry, I'm sorry but I don't feel "nailed" in any way...Thanks but TRY AGAIN!

Peace.

Harry H. McCall said...

Harvey,
Bart Ehrman’s newest book: Jesus, Interrupted: Revealing the Hidden Contradictions in the Bible (And Why We Don't Know About Them) could easily undo the faith of any church member in the very Bible you love to quote so much.

Ehrman talks a lot about people like you who rework what the plain text states to keep the “Old ship of Zion Book” afloat.

If you where not protected by Separation of Church and State, you would be jailed for fraud and ethics violations (according to Ehrman).

Hey, you could prove that every state in the Union was really on the ocean.

I noticed you are now a JP Holding cheer leader on the new anti John Loftus Blog.

To bad. You’ll go down with the Titanic.

District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...

Harry,

As I said on JP's blog I like John and I do...He's entitled to his opinion but I know what JP teaches is the truth. So I don't expect you to agree so what it really doesn't matter...One thing I haven't done is get John's book, and I promise to do that shortly, so I can address the issues in his book...As I said, I certainly don't feel the way JP does about Loftus.

Anyway, Ehrman, as respected as he is...IS a JOKE! The only reason to take him seriously is because of his credentials in academia NOT because of substance...now, He like alot of critics say some "astounding" and "profound" things but evidence speaks for itself...It's amazing how he and others magnify sometimes insignificant details, place great weight of suspicion behind them, then claim ALL of Christianity is suspect...Like his last one "Misquoting Jesus" that offered NO MISQUOTES...only theory and conjecture...

I wouldn't build a theory around him or any of his work ALTHOUGH some of it is thought provoking.

Later Harry...let me check out some of the other apostate arguments you're continuing to render on this site-LOL

By the way, you do know that I like you too-LOL!

Host said...

Harvey said...

"2 things, not to get sidetracked, IF God is who we Christians proclaim him to be, how could ANYTHING happen aside from his knowledge and out of his view and foreknowledge??? That's what this ascribes, NOT the cause of the illness but the one who supercedes and transcends the illness... Secondly, the "glory" that a first century jew would have understood ONLY belonged to God, YET this passage teaches that "glory" was to be ascribed to Jesus...This is a matter of divinity being ascribed to Jesus who later demonstarated the power of that title or ascription."

You can choose not to believe god caused it, but clearly he did. Jesus said it happened so that Jesus could show off and heal the guy. Jesus intentionally waited for that very purpose, because apparently god would not have been glorified enough if Jesus simply healed him on the spot from another location. Harvey your god is a psychotic egomaniacal being.

You said this glory was shared with Jesus so Jesus must be god... Um well i guess the disciples are god too because Jesus gave them his glory and the power to forgive sins...

Joh 17:22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,

Joh 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld."

You said he raised the dead and this is proof of his deity...um didn't Paul raise someone from the dead too?

Act 20:9 And a young man named Eutychus, sitting at the window, sank into a deep sleep as Paul talked still longer. And being overcome by sleep, he fell down from the third story and was taken up dead.
Act 20:10 But Paul went down and bent over him, and taking him in his arms, said, "Do not be alarmed, for his life is in him."

Make room in the trinity for the paul and peter!

District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...

Dan,

"Um well i guess the disciples are god too because Jesus gave them his glory and the power to forgive sins..."

Obviously you woke up on the OTHER side of the moon...

#1 Evidently, you have no idea of how the word "glory" is used within scripture. K-bod (Heb.) and doxa(Gk.)were used to both describe an attribute of the nature of God in a bright shining or overpowering light in which God manifests himself AND #2 is also a proper response of praise and adulation from men to God.

The "glory" in the sense in which Jesus has given to man is a "glory" as descrubed by Jesus in Mt. 5..."A city set on a hill" a "light" or witness to the world...that we should "Glorify" HIM (Jesus). That should answer your first set of confusion...

Secondly, the church has the power to remit sins THROUGH the shed blood of Jesus because the church is the representative of Jesus in the world...theology 101 not really too big of an issue except to the ultra-skeptic such as you.

Finally the "signs and wonders" ascribed to Paul, Peter and other Apostles and followers of Jesus are only the "gifts" promised. Note the difference, not one of the individuals that were used in any gift were ever "glorified" or praised neither did any ever receive praise as God. Only Jesus received such accolades and adulation.

Anywho...what's up, now???

Host said...

Harvey your straining yourself...

Jesus clearly said he could do nothing by himself, and that God did the miracles. The same thing Peter said about Jesus (acts 2:22). You want the miracles and glory jesus had to be special, when those same miracles and glory were given to his disciples.

The only distinction between the two is your wishful thinking. When Jesus is glorified it is to be done for the recognition of the one who sent, exalted, anointed, appointed, ordained, and raised him from the dead which was HIS GOD AND FATHER. Jesus said he had the same god you do harvey, why don't you believe him?

Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Jesus was not viewed as their God, listen to their sermons...

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know-

Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him.

Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree.

Act 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.

Act 13:38 Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

Act 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,
Act 17:31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."


According to his disciples, jesus was a man god anointed, exalted and raised from the dead and appointed the judge of the world. He was not their god.

District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...

Dan,

One thing that's consistent on this site for over the year and a half I've been around is that when you guys lose one argument you're headlong into the next one without even the acknowledgement that you need to realign your views...

Now, you want to move as you've been doing to the establishment of the deity of Jesus in the gospels and early church...Then you want to quote scripture to do so...So I take it that you have a regard for the accuracy of scripture?

NONE of the texts you quoted negate against anything I say and or believe, but ALL of them point toward the ontological distinction between God the Father and the Son eternally.

So what's your point? The distinction doesn't negate his deity. Let's look at what Matthew had to say about this and John (who wasn't an anonmyous writing- and WAS a EYEWITNESS to events) had to say about the subject:

Mt. 14:32~"2-And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased. 33-Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped (proskuneses) him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God."

The above is the summary of a passage of Jesus walking on water and Peter doing the same for a time at his instructions. It ends in the disciples proving WORSHIP based on the observation that he was the "Son Of God" which was expression used to indicate special relationship with God and in the many refrences toward Jesus in the NT to the nature and essence of God. I may touch on that in a minute...but look at this the word (proskuneses) used in this instance acknowledges the works of Jesus which were done NOT by an ordinary man good or bad. Yes I know the word wasn't always used to indicate worship so far as adulation is concerned BUT CONTEXT indicates what happened here and in other cases.

Secondly, Mt. 28:17-20~ "17-And when they saw him, they worshipped (proskuneses) him: but some doubted. 18-And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19-Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20-Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Hailed as the Great Commission, the disciples "worship (proskuneses) him", he receives it as usual and he states that he has ALL Power. Who has ALL POWER in heaven and earth except for God??? To suggest that scripture teaches that a mere MAN had all power is RIDICULOUS.

This was not challenged in any way by the disciples WHY? because they KNEW JESUS WAS GOD

Since you like to quote scriptures here Jesus acknowledges when you see him you HAVE ALSO SEEN the Father(GOD)

John 12:45~"4 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45-And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me."

John 14:7-10~"7-If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8-Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9-Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10-Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11-Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’sake."

Further we have an EYEWITNESS who also testifies of a doubters confession as Jesus as God!

John 20:28~"28-And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29-Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

I've only BRISHED the surface. In the very statements that I initially quoted Jesus calimed at the resurrection of Lazarus to be THE RESURRECTION and THE LIFE...This was a statement of eternal proportions indicating his power over LIFE and DEATH...

Man, switch the argument because neither you nor debunking pays me for this and you'll only look more silly because this stuff is on almost every page of the NT...

There can be NO DOUBT that the gospels and the complete NT throughout the book of Revelation hailed and proclaimed Jesus as deity...but that flies in the face of your LIES about a 3rd century creation of Jesus deity by the council of Nicea...That's a preposturous(sp) and silly notion and no learned bible reader is deceived by such lies...

So Later Danny...or should I say, "Booken' Danno"!

I'm out...This is way off the topic of the post anyway.

Host said...

Harvey, you quote a verse where Jesus says all authority in heaven and earth was given to him, and you think that helps your case?

How could he be given something he already had you nitwit?

The verses i gave don't disitinguish between jesus and "god the father" it distinguishes him from GOD OUTRIGHT. You out of wishful thinking are choosing to ignore what it says and inserting a meaning in a desperate attempt to make it conform to the dogma you were brainwashed with. Jesus said his Father is the only true God (john 17:3), peter distinguished jesus from god saying he is the servant of the god of abraham, isaac, and jacob (acts 3:13). Paul distinguished jesus from the only wise god (rom 16:27) i can go on and on and on. If you want to read into these passages some non existant qualifications that is your problem. Since your a braindead true believer, there is no point embarrassing you anymore with scriptures that contradict your foolish beliefs.

District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...

Dan,

All I can say is that JP's name for you IS RIGHT ON POINT...without a doubt you prove that...

Anyway, since you're fighting a loosing battle from a totally UNLEARNED position, I'll just conclude by offering one of the heros on this site to confirm my premise...any additional arguments you want to take up you should first begin by reading his book as he is AN expert on many of these types of subjects...( a two-edged sword I reluctantly yield)

Enter Bart D. Ehrman. Y'u-know the one who many of you worship as God because he disproves all things Christian (yea right!)...well in this case his opinion totally negates yours...

In "The Orthodox Corruption Of Scripture: The effect Of Early Christiological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament(New York:Oxford University Press, 1993)33n. 11; 36nn. 25-26 ~

Ehrman holds that the NT authors whom he calls "proto-orthodox" held to the same "paradoxical view of Christ" (Jesus) as both God and man. He further says:
"These proto-orthodox Christians opposed anyone who claimed that Christ was a man but not God, and anyone who claimed that he was two distinct beings, one divine and one human." (pg. 13-15)

He also knew history as well as scripture on which to base his claim YOU NUT! He knew that Pliny The Younger in 110 AD also recorded that "Christians" were gathering and singing songs to CHRISTUS (ie: Jesus) "as if he were a God"

Where did this all come from? NOT my delusion...It came from the historical RECORD...

Like I said I won't educate you more because you're biblically illiterate and not paying me a dime for this...but 2+2 still equals 4 and NOT 15 as it is in your book...

So leave it alone...YA LOST, YA LOST, YA LOST!

Later

District Supt. Harvey Burnett said...

Dan,

By the way, you also said this stupid garbage to prove your illiteracy:

"Harvey, you quote a verse where Jesus says all authority in heaven and earth was given to him, and you think that helps your case?"

Yes Dan it does prove my case...The text actually says what I quoted:

"18-And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is givenunto me in heaven and in earth"

You NEED it to say all power, "was given" or "has been given" don't you? but is says "All Power Is given" The oinly thing you rightfully say is that he ALREADY HAD that power..It was DEMONSTRATED by the resurrection...ie: In case they didn't know before, they knew NOW by the fact that he proved HIS authority...

I mean that in the last but forgot, not that you'd catch it anyway...

By the way the more you write, the more I LAUGH...especially when I read JP's responses...THAT'S A TOTAL GAG...

http://debunkingloftus.blogspot.com/2009/03/question-john-loftus-will-never-answer.html

Host said...

Harvey,

I really want you to think before you post next time, you are seriously embarrassing yourself.

Harvey said...

"Ehrman holds that the NT authors whom he calls "proto-orthodox" held to the same "paradoxical view of Christ" (Jesus) as both God and man. He further says:
"These proto-orthodox Christians opposed anyone who claimed that Christ was a man but not God, and anyone who claimed that he was two distinct beings, one divine and one human." (pg. 13-15)"

Harvey, usually when people quote someone, they quote them saying something that actually supports their position. Apparently your too stupid to do so. The quote does not say he believes the disciples are "proto-orthodox" christians. You will have to provide proof for that assertion.

Ehrman does speak of proto-orthodoc christians in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, but i am not aware of him ever called the original disciples such. So i reject your claim. Ehrman says in his new book that he doesn't believe the original disciples thought jesus was god. He says it was a later development, the same thing i have said and the same thing i have proven from quoting your stupid unholy book.

How embarassing it must be for you that your god says someone else is the only true god, says he cannot do anything by himself, says his doctrine is not his, says he came to EARTH UNWILLINGLY...

Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.

YOUR GOD SAID HE GOT SENT HERE AGAINST HIS WILL LOL

Your god says he lives because of someone else...

Joh 6:57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.

Harvey that is pathetic, and you are pathetic. Your a pastor and you didn't even know these things because your so brainwashed.

Harvey then tries to say "Jesus didn't say all authority "has been" given to me, he says "it is" given to me. Harvey, your joking right?

ESV
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

RV
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.

ASV
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.

ALT
Mat 28:18 And having approached, Jesus spoke to them, saying, "All authority in heaven and on earth was given to Me.

Harvey your not one of those idiotic king james only people are ya?

Harvey stick to preaching to your "sheep", you are out of your league here.
E