Christians Do Not Believe After All
Christians claim that people who do horrendous evils simply refuse to change despite God's repeated attempts to help them see the error of their ways. If I were God I could change anyone’s mind if I chose to. I could harden a person's heart like the Pharaoh’s. I could speak audibly to them, appear to them, or do a wondrous deed for them. That’s anyone, as in ANYONE. That Christians refuse to acknowledge this tells me something about them. They do not believe after all. They only believe what is convenient to believe. ;-)
17 comments:
They'll acknowledge that god can, but doesn't, because of either the "free will" reason, or "greater cause that we could never understand" reason.
This of course will move the debate to those topics. Unfortunately, the scope of the debate, no matter where you start, is so magnanimous, that you could never cover all topics as fully as either party would like.
For instance, I would want to know how the Christian who claims it's all for a causes that we can't understand could even know that much. If it's a cause we'd never understand, how could anyone possibly say that they understand there's a REASON for doing the unimaginable. They claim to knows gods mind, which to me is more amazing.
But even that paragraph alone has already begun a long trail moving away from this central post.
I've seen the comments on here and they go on and on and on!
Speaking of which - can we reformat the comments so their nested? Kind of like what you see on DemocraticUnderground.org or IMDB.com?
Regarding: "They only believe what is convenient to believe."
At the risk of sounding a little crass, I have experience with many men who have "taken up the faith" due to girlfriends or wives. It's almost like the women threw the hammer down--if the men want access to what's between their legs, then they needed to start going to church.
I really laughed when Lee Strobel admitted it was his wife (or girlfriend) that got him to start going to church and put him on the path to salvation--Halleluja!
How convenient!
Jim -
Related to that point about men going because of girls, have you seen this article?
Real men find Church too girly
"A charity suggests Churches will attract men by using swords rather than flowers as decoration"
A person's faith must exist in reality, regardless of their claims of the supernatural. They may believe something can happen, and teach that it in fact did, or does happen, but they live in this reality. There is no magic or miracle, or unfathomable will of god. Their mental gymnastics used to explain the discrepancies can be fun to watch.
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I've never understood people who want to diminish God's power to get around the difficulties in their faith. If the things you see in the world are too difficult for you to coalesce with an omnipotent, omniscient God, then GIVE UP YOUR FAITH! Don't change your God.
I used to go to a Sovereign Grace Church, where a form of Calvinism was taught, and for my money, Calvinism, or, at least its basic tenet that God is sovereign over all creation, can NOT be denied after reading the Bible, and especially the letters of Paul (at least those that he definitely wrote).
If there is a God who can fail, like Peter Kirk so unashamedly asserted, he's not a God worth believing in, because once he becomes fallible, that is a slippery slope of belief that you don't want to go down.
If God exists, there is nothing that happens that either he didn't do himself, or that he doesn't actively allow.
It's a shame that I have more faith in the abilities of the Christian God, than most Christians do, and I don't even believe he exists.
It's a shame that I have more faith in the abilities of the Christian God, than most Christians do, and I don't even believe he exists.
This actually makes it easier for you. I can ascribe all kinds of supernatural abilities to vampires and werewolves because I don't believe that they exist in reality. Who cares if shapeshifting violates everything we know about biology - they don't exist so they can have incredible powers.
Now, if I actually believed that werewolves existed I'd need to come up with a rationale for how their shapeshifting powers worked within the framework of biology. If I believed that werewolves existed in the absence of physical evidence for their existence that makes the whole thing even worse, since I have nothing to look at to get a hint of how the biology might work out.
So too with a believer who has to justify an all-powerful God with no evidence. They're forced to come up with all kinds of tortured rationalizations and justifications to explain a creature that they believe exists, but they've never seen any evidence of. Of course it's harder for them to believe in its all-powerful nature - they have to deal with the consequences of that belief while we actually don't.
Anthony,
I used to be a die in the wool Calvinist. Most Calvinists are not even consistent with their own view of sovereignty. I used to wonder why most, for example, would say that Arminianism is a false gospel but yet still considered those very same Arminians fellow believers. I was one of those Calvinists that said Arminianism was a false gospel which meant Arminians were lost.
Of course my Calvinism also kept me from thinking "outside the box." It was only after many years of rethinking a number of theological concepts that even allowed me to consider whether or not evolution was a viable position for a Christian to hold. Let alone consider that there might be historical/critical problems with the Bible.
It's easy for apologists to justify some suffering. Generally, this is done by appealing to free will, or suffering-as-instruction.
But, if they wish to defend a tri-omni God, they need to defend all the suffering in the world; the position is that God is already doing everything possible to make the world better.
Phrased another way: There is literally nothing that God can do to make the world better than it is now.
Here, I think the atheists and the apologists have some common ground.
...
Justifiable suffering and the problem of evil
Apart from actually reading the bible, studying other world religions and simple logic, one of the things that caused the christian house of cards to fall to pieces was the simple exercise of trying to imagine what I would do if I were God.
Would I condemn anyone to hell? I decided that no one who ever lived deserves this infinite punishment for finite crimes.
Would I reject someone simply because they didn't believe in me? No.
Is the bible the best I could do to let my creatures know about me?
No. I thought of all sorts of things, maybe a big "JESUS SAVES" written in a host of languages carved into the face of the moon.
Is a creation peopled by billions of people with the 'wonderful' freedom to burn in hell forever the best I could do? No. Especially since none of these poor creatures ever asked me to be created or be placed in this horrible dilemna / test.
For an excellent look at this subject I recommend a story in a book edited by Dan Dennett and Douglas Hofstadter called The Mind's I the short story is "Non Servium" (pg. 296). It si a fiction about a scientist that creates artificial beings in a computer. The scientist is their 'creator' and he can listen to their private conversations about what sort of god created them. Lots of theological back and forth follows.
"At the risk of sounding a little crass, I have experience with many men who have "taken up the faith" due to girlfriends or wives. It's almost like the women threw the hammer down--if the men want access to what's between their legs, then they needed to start going to church."
I think Jim's nailed it, so to speak. Although it makes you wonder what kind of person would use sex as a weapon. All jokes aside, can you imagine being in a relationship with someone like that? How unfortunate.
I don't have to imagine it Harold, that was one of the reasons I ended my last relationship.
Yahweh is jealous & uses promised pleasure just like that last gurlfriend.
"Christians claim that people who do horrendous evils simply refuse to change despite God's repeated attempts to help them see the error of their ways."
I would clarify that people who do horrendous evils do so because they are influence by horrendous beings (unclean deceiving spirits)
who most people do not even know or believe exist. This is a temporary creation and these beings
have choices and make choices within limitations as well. STILL,
the person who does the act ultimately makes a choice...
I wouldn't say God makes "attempts" because that is exremely anthropomorphic. I would say rather that they ignored the Creator's Law and logical intentions for what would have been optimal.
"If I were God I could change anyone’s mind if I chose to."
Perhaps that is exactly what God is doing to born-again Christians.
When people tell me I have been brain-washed I often respond that perhaps I realized my brain needed washing...
"I could harden a person's heart like the Pharaoh’s."
You could also allow Pharaoh to do this via his own choices and his own emotions through circumstances he would logically respond to and allow Moses to write it down in a human language communicating the concept of "hardening a person's heart" without fully explaining the human participation and reactions which were based on circumstances. (an actual infinite set of circumstances (natural theology) which appeared to be a finite amount of circumstances).
"I could speak audibly to them, appear to them, or do a wondrous deed for them. That’s anyone, as in ANYONE."
Unless this did not accomplish your purposes which were eternal and had to do with what you were teaching your children about themselves and their need for salvation and their understanding of the concept of GRACE for all of eternity.
"That Christians refuse to acknowledge this tells me something about them."
That they know God is Omniscient
and that He knows what He is doing
in this temporary creation of teaching His children and bringing about salvation?
"They do not believe after all."
Perhaps they "know." Perhaps it is knowledge? What if it is actually consistent with God's omniscient knowledge on certain specific points regarding their salvation?
"They only believe what is convenient to believe. ;-)"
Or what is logical to believe based on the knowledge that God was doing a work with the Nation of Israel which would eternally symbolize something far greater than allowing evil and judging it.
Grace and Love and the knowledge of these that has to be learned.
Cheez Beckimin, why would a all-knowing god create unclean deceiving spirits & call them good? You know as in Genesis where Yahweh creates everything & calls it good.
But Yahweh is all-knowing so he knew he would have to drown his creation (which he called good)in a world-wide flood for being evil.
How can anyone believe bronze-age drivel?
Cheez Beckimin, why would a all-knowing god create unclean deceiving spirits & call them good? You know as in Genesis where Yahweh creates everything & calls it good.
But Yahweh is all-knowing so he knew he would have to drown his creation (which he called good)in a world-wide flood for being evil.
How can anyone believe bronze-age drivel?
"why would a all-knowing god create unclean deceiving spirits & call them good? You know as in Genesis where Yahweh creates everything & calls it good."
These are excellent questions ONLY if you really want to begin to understand the answer and its complexity.
1. God creates people who create.
2. God creates people with volition. (free will is imperfect with "free" because of the limitations in lacking knowledge).
3. The creation is "good" in that it is perfectly on its way toward dealing with the problem of evil (where God becomes a Man and dies for the inevitable potential byproduct of choice without knowledge).
Clearly God creates all matter. He does NOT create sin...or what the beings He created in His Image
create "on their own" (imperfect in this English phrase since God sustains them).
There is a "cause" for the unclean deceiving spirits and their existences that has to be addressed and it is equally complex. You can't over-simplify the choices of angels anymore than you can simplify the choices of humans.
"But Yahweh is all-knowing so he knew he would have to drown his creation (which he called good)in a world-wide flood for being evil."
It was "good" until the potential byproduct of choice (which was inevitable to exist when you understand its potential)corrupted the whole creation. You could even say it was "perfect" in that it was perfectly on its way to preparing the way for an eternal salvation for God's children. God makes no mistakes. This temporary creation is "perfect" (double meaning word in the English) from one aspect of dealing with the REAL problem of evil...However, it is NOT perfect from the standpoint of what needs to be learned for all of eternity.
How could Adam be "perfect" unless He knew how much God loved Him? ("how much" here deals with Self-Sacrificing Love and is not quantified). How could Adam be perfect without even understanding the CONCEPT of "grace" by which God would be sustaining His eternal adopted children for all of eternity?
Those who look for contradiction in the midst of imperfection will find their agenda. Those who ask God for wisdom will see resolution in the midst of complication and will praise God for it.
There is of course thousands of more things to explain from this understanding.
Do you mean to say that "some Christians" think this way?
Yes.
Some Christians can answer the alleged problem of evil logically, rationally and systematically based on a proper understanding of sin/disobedience and salvation which is by God's grace through faith in the Perfect Sacrifice of Jesus Christ of the Cross for their sins.
Others who do not understand properly often leave the faith for all of the wrong reasons.
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