Tell us. What would you believe? THAT is the question. My claim is that biblical criticism is an undercutting defeater for what Christians believe such that without the Bible they would become agnostics and then afterward possibly atheists. At that point they would see the arguments for the existence of God as little more than a shell game.
268 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 268 of 268@Shane
Example 1: Why do you think that Jesus included himself when he said "No one is good"? Using only the book of Mark I can show that Jesus was not including himself because He did what only God can do. Recall in Mark 2:6-12 when Jesus forgave the sins of the lame man, it was stated that the Jewish leaders became angry because only God can forgive sin. They understood that if a man claimed he could forgive sin, that man was making a divine prerogative his own. Jesus validated his right by healing the man. Therefore claiming to be God...therefore claiming and showing that He is good. QED.
Example 2: In order to come to your conclusion you assume that the writer of Joshua is conflicting with science. I'm not changing the context or scripture. I agree that to the person on the battle field the day was lengthened. I can't explain how it happened or how wide spread the effect was. The text does not say. Therefore it is not right to assume that there is a conflict with science because we don;t know how it happened.
A word about consistency. I don't think your exegesis is consistent with the text or context. You come to conclusions that an original audience would not come to.Not because you disagree with me but the text disagrees with you.
Marcus.
You asked why do I think Jesus included Himself?
Lets see......the young man addressed Jesus and called Him "good teacher". Jesus addressed the young man and said "why do you call me good, only God is good".
I dont think I can make this any simpler.
You said I come to conclusions that an original audeince would not?
Are you serious.....? Reading the scripture above, people would come to the same exact conclusion as me!!!!
Also, if what your saying is true, then that rules out Robert Ingersoll, Thomas Paine, Dan Barker, B.C. Johnson, John Loftus, and over half the people on this blog!
Why is it so hard to accept the author of Joshua believed in a literal stopping of the sun?
Those people believed in parting sea's, detached hands writing on walls, demon possession, people turning into pillars of salt....etc...you are giving those people more modern outlooks then the scriptures actually show us!
Marcus.
My post has disappeared
Marcus.
I dont know what happened, my posts keep disappearing the post shows 203 comments?
@Shane I'm not the only one who looks at Jesus' words that way when he was talking to the man. Do you really think that this a new argument against Jesus' deity and people don't have any good reason to reject the argument? It's not a strong case nor is it new and it does not hold given texts like Mark 2. It's the same Jesus who can forgive sin and only God can forgive sin. Context. Context. context. I'm not basing Jesus not saying that he was not good based on the Theology but on Mark 2. I'm well aware that John Loftus uses this argument. Her used it in his debate against David Wood (I think or was D'Souza ) Either case it didn't work then either.
I'm not making any assumption of knowledge or ignorance to come to any conclusion about Joshua 10. you are. You said that it contradicts science and I'm saying that there isn't enough information given in the text other than what a person on the battle field observed. Your making assumptions that the text does not support. that is not being consistent with the text.
Refresh the browser, Shane
Marcus.
WTF!
Look at what your saying here...!
Your telling me I am assuming things in Joshua, yet you are telling me it was the observation of someone on the battle field?
How do you know?
How do you know the author was not relating a legendary story?
How do you know the author wasn't making it up, or was elaborating?
How do you even know Joshua wasn't written until long after the actual events?
There is a number of things that are possible and you are simply tossing them aside because of your own presuppositions.
Like I said before, there is alot of fantastic stories and imagery in the OT.
Mark 2 fits this same thing. Contrast Mark 2 with the other scriptures I mentioned before about Jesus divinity.
It could be that the gospels simply contradict eachother, it could be that some scriptures are interpolations or add on's, the bible we have is a copy of copies!
Again, possibilities that you dismiss!
Of course you have a good reason to reject my arguments, if im even half right your faith is bogus!
Of course your going to research and study apologists answers, many christians do.
When you believe that the bible is true and is the word of God of course you see things in a context differently then me.
Marcus.
If im taking things out of context then please explain how Jesus clearing the temple in the gospels is not an error (at least not chronologically).
The synoptics tell us the event of Jesus clearing the temple happened upon Jesus triumphal entry into Jerusalem or shortly after (they dont agree on this either).
This was right near the end of Jesus ministry.
Yet John tells us that Jesus did this clearing of the temple near the beginning of His ministry shortly after His first miracle at Cana.
If these are suppossed to be two different events, then why are all four stories almost identical, and why dont the synoptics describe this event happening twice and same with John?
@Shane
Look at what your saying here...!
Your telling me I am assuming things in Joshua, yet you are telling me it was the observation of someone on the battle field?
How do you know?
How do you know the author was not relating a legendary story?
How do you know the author wasn't making it up, or was elaborating?
How do you even know Joshua wasn't written until long after the actual events?
I did not toss out any of those possibilities. I am saying that based on what the text says it's not problematic. If you wanna argue that its based on an oral tradition and not by someone who was there...fine...but it's still would be from an eyewitness account that was passed down. What is your proof that it isn't? If you want to argue that the text is wrong and you have no idea what it really say because we have copies of copies...that failed argument only for the New Testament. The Hebrew Old Testament does not have many textual variations. They differ very little and we don't have as many.
There is a number of things that are possible and you are simply tossing them aside because of your own presuppositions.
Like I said before, there is alot of fantastic stories and imagery in the OT.
Mark 2 fits this same thing. Contrast Mark 2 with the other scriptures I mentioned before about Jesus divinity.
It could be that the gospels simply contradict eachother, it could be that some scriptures are interpolations or add on's, the bible we have is a copy of copies!
Again, possibilities that you dismiss!
You have offered no other scripture denying the deity of Christ. Textual criticism cn tell us if my argument is flawed. Is there a sing copy of Mark that has a different rendering than Mark 2 and 10? I don't think so. Even the texts that have the longer reading of Mark agree. Try again
Of course you have a good reason to reject my arguments, if im even half right your faith is bogus!
Of course your going to research and study apologists answers, many christians do.
They are good answers to bad arguments. Don't blame me because your position is refutable.
When you believe that the bible is true and is the word of God of course you see things in a context differently then me.
The problem for you is that it true. You still haven't shown it to be false. If you can show it to be false, it's not the word of God, as you said. Go ahead.
@Shane
I found the answer to this question months ago here go to number 45
Marcus.
Why do I have to show the bible is false because I dont believe in it?
Prove the bible is true Marcus. Show me that Jesus rose from the dead, show there is a God, prove there is heaven, prove the bible is the word of God......if you cant do those things then dont ask me to do something of the same nature.
Prove that the story in Joshua had to come from eyewitness accounts and why it is could not be oral tradition, prove that God really lengthened the day!
I can throw the same arguments back at you.
On the contrary, they are desperate answers to obvious questions.
I did offer scriptures that are not consistent with Mark 2.
Show me how my temple clearing argument is not erronous somewhere along the lines!
Marcus.
Why dont you just tell me the answer instead of making me read through 101 of them to find it?
Marcus McElhaney said..."@Gandalf
I'm sorry for the losses you have had. However the smoking exmaple is a bad analogy because I'd say that smoking is 100% bad for the people who smoke and the people around them, but Christianity isn't"
Marcus you would possibly be wrong about smoking always being 100% bad for people.
I was once a smoker myself,but have now stopped.However smoking might sometimes have had some benifits.Whether we now have other options available,might make the biggest difference.
Here is a page that discusses the subject.
http://www.forces.org/evidence/evid/therap.htm
When i was a smoker going to dentists i felt ashamed and sorry for the dentists who had to work around my smoker breath.But my own dentist was the one who first told me himself,smoking tobacco can help in stopping tooth decay.
I think as with many things it come down to weighing the bad against the good.And deciding whether things are really needed or whether other methods can be used.
Im not totally against the tradition of santa and christmas,but i might be a little more against it! if santa and his reindeer was promoted more as being honest truth.And adults started pushing threats,and using it as a bully fear tactic that could teach shunning and separation and biggotry that started causing nightmares and segregation and disharmony for some folks.
That then becomes different.And its all very fine folks like you popping out the oh my christian mates dont hurt folks, so dont say all christianity is bad speel.
But tell me Marcus do you and your family and church etc,ever bother doing much ACTION to stop the faith abuse?...While telling me how wonderful your (personal type of christianity) is,do you all bother approaching governments! to complain and protest and vote that laws surrounding "freedom of faith" gets some adjustment?... so as to remove! to possibility! that some kids become unlucky to be born into such nasty faith abuse?
Like you christian folk seem to be able to achieve with regards to matters of (gay marriage or abortion!).
Or because its about "faith freedoms" do you just visit sites like this offering up the odd pitiful ..."oh im sorry to hear you had losses" ...type bullshit
Im not interested! in bullshit words, of " oh im sorry to hear".
Action speaks much louder than words!.And words is really worthless crap thats just face value,when the actual abuse still is able to continue while your "faith freedoms rights" still exist.
And while folks continue to suffer through these old laws of faith freedoms,that most folks of faith all tend to turn a blind eye to.
By what right? do you claim not actually being involved AT ALL? in such nastiness?
I suggest your liberal christian family is partly responsible also,for what i experience!
Because without the continued existence of these nasty faith freedoms laws!,we who have been abused might have been spared! the need of experiencing the RUSSIAN ROULETTE type chance of abuse that these old laws allow to happen.
And even some people lives would have been saved that have been lost because these old faith freedom laws still exist.
@Shane...I told you to read number 45.
@Gandalf
So you would challenge decades of medical research and professional who have for last 30 years been telling the public how bad smoking is? Okay.
MY point is that because not all Christians fit your experience you can't say that Christianity is bad just because some people did evil claiming to be Chrisitians. That's like me hating left handed people because every left-handed person I knew slapped me.
The way to keep Children from experience abuse of any kind is to spread the the love of Jesus and following God. That would work. IF you disagree you would have to prove that the way the offending "Christians" behaved is corroborated and condoned in the Bible. I agree that there are people hurting and being mistreated but that's not God's fault. IT's my fault if I do nothing or turn a blind eye or deny that. I'm not. I vote and participate in culture. IF I knew of such abuse happening to people or children I will speak out.
I'm commenting here because the fact that there are evil people masquerading as Christians do not invalidate the Bible or Christianity. I'm not involved in the crap because I'm not ignoring it...running away from it...or condoning it. What have you done? Apostasy is not an answer. It's an excuse. God uses us to be as blessing to one another and I would not let my children be abused or anyone else if I have anything to say about it. WE have options and recourses. God does not expect us to just sit by and do nothing. We are to do good at every opportunity. Again just because some people have abused freedoms does not make the freedoms bad.
@Shane
Why do I have to show the bible is false because I dont believe in it?
No, you have to show the Bible is false because you claim it is false.
Prove the bible is true Marcus. Show me that Jesus rose from the dead, show there is a God, prove there is heaven, prove the bible is the word of God......if you cant do those things then dont ask me to do something of the same nature.
I have shown that the Bible contains reliable and verifiable truth that can be independently verified. I cannot prove everything but I can't disprove anything in the Bible either. If I could then I would have to reject it as the Word of God. If you can't prove the claim that the Bible is not the Word of God then you can't say that it isn't. The best you can say is that you don't know. I know the Bible is true because I have more reason to accept it than to reject it, although it says things I don't like. You have no reason to reject it. Here is just the tip of the iceberg
Prove that the story in Joshua had to come from eyewitness accounts and why it is could not be oral tradition, prove that God really lengthened the day!
I can throw the same arguments back at you.
On the contrary, they are desperate answers to obvious questions.
I've shown you that your answers are not obvious. Even if a tradition is oral does not mean it's false. You can't prove that it didn't happen. There is verifiable evidence that events in Joshua really happened. Why assume that the ones you don't understand didn't happen? You have no good reason to other than that is the choice you are making. For example...you can really see the ruins of Jericho. You can see how and when it was destroyed...consistently with the Biblical account. And where do you think true oral traditions come from? Eyewitness accounts.
I did offer scriptures that are not consistent with Mark 2.
I didn't get them. Send them again.
Show me how my temple clearing argument is not erronous somewhere along the lines!
I gave you the link...read number 45!
1,
Marcus McElhaney said..."So you would challenge decades of medical research and professional who have for last 30 years been telling the public how bad smoking is? Okay."
No i never stated that at all.Im merely pointing you were wrong when you previously said... "I'd say that smoking is 100% bad for the people who smoke and the people around them, but Christianity isn't"
Smoking cannot nessarily be said to be 100% bad at all.And so i dont think you are so right in saying the analogy i used is bad.You might wish it was bad,but thats a different story.
Marcus said .."MY point is that because not all Christians fit your experience you can't say that Christianity is bad just because some people did evil claiming to be Chrisitians. That's like me hating left handed people because every left-handed person I knew slapped me."
Not all smoking is bad either,some folks smoke, and also live a long time.That dont change the fact that smoking is bad because it opens the (possibility) of chance of many more people havin lung cancer etc.Like i said,i think its more about weighing the balances.Maybe smoking ciggys would be ok,if only folks never got quite so adictive and kept there smoking to certain levels while also doing plenty of exercise that cleaned out the lungs....But sadly it leads to humans becoming very addicted and their smoking all to often gets out of control.
Religion can be fine like you suggest,but history tells us all to often peoples religion becomes to addictive and out of control.
2,
Marcus said..."The way to keep Children from experience abuse of any kind is to spread the the love of Jesus and following God. That would work. IF you disagree you would have to prove that the way the offending "Christians" behaved is corroborated and condoned in the Bible."
Well Christians have been thinking and saying they are spreading the love of Jesus for thousands of years now..You personally may try to claim thats wrong,but many folks would disagree and say its you that doesnt actually know what real christianity is!.
Just as some smokers might also say, you just might not know how to smoke ciggys properly! ...Because so happens! seems their family of ciggy smokers are doing quite fine.
If what you suggest is right,we have already had atleast 2000 odd years ,why hasnt it happened? .You cant say its just about humans wanting to be evil...Was it we were just waiting for the new messiah Marcus to arrive??.
I dont think much of your idea of things sudden changing on their own! sometime,specially if you agee in humans having free will,and imperfections etc!!.What do you believe in supernatural miracles??.
If so then why have they taken thousands of years or more?....And why would you want to be so thoughtless and nasty as to let people continuing suffering faith abuse ...while waiting on your right to wait on supernatural miracles?....Because its not you thats getting abused??.
And thats Christian thinking? ...That type thoughtless thinking honestly lines up with some type of golden rule ?? .Some "Pro faith freedom" type golden rule? ...If non believers had laws of "freedom to harm faithful folks",how would it sound if i said ...Oh no the laws dont need changing ...All we need is for non faithful folk to decide on their own, to no longer harm the faithful.
Would you think i would ((HONESTLY)) desearve to make some claim to a golden rule which suggests...I must treat others how id like to be treated myself?.
I suggest if we allowed laws of "freedoms" to abuse faithful folks,you`d soon change your tune and start suggesting it wasnt so fair...Start telling us something needed to change.Yet you dont want to offer us the same decency.
Why does your bible even bother containing a golden rule? ...You obviously adopted the rule,and obviously its just for the "good looks"
Another faith fraud.
No you are wrong ...The "faith freedom" laws are nasty thoughtless and very wrong,and before Christians like you wish to claim not having any involvement in faith abuse that does still happen....I suggest you first need to get involved in getting some much needed law changes being made.
Until you do......In any real HONESTY you should know you are still (partly) to blame when faith abuse still happens.
3,
Marcus said..."I agree that there are people hurting and being mistreated but that's not God's fault. IT's my fault if I do nothing or turn a blind eye or deny that. I'm not. I vote and participate in culture. IF I knew of such abuse happening to people or children I will speak out. "
Whatever Marcus...We can argue this bullshit all day....But the fact remains ...The abuse happens when people read and follow mans many all sorted faiths of gods.
You dont just not deny abortion or gay marriage is wrong do you...When it comes to this you are all of a sudden quite happy to be involved in REAL ACTION ...Voting ,protesting to government about changing some laws.
You faithful have double standards.You often are frauds...Telling us how sorry you are and how much you care ...While taking no action,because you like your laws of "faith freedoms" more than you actually care about who might happen to get burned by them.
Thats disgusting and lowly,for the year 2010.
We expect this ignorance of barbaric times yes ....But by now its become disgusting and thoughtless,and is long overdue!! for change.
4,
Marcus said..."I'm commenting here because the fact that there are evil people masquerading as Christians do not invalidate the Bible or Christianity. I'm not involved in the crap because I'm not ignoring it...running away from it...or condoning it. What have you done? Apostasy is not an answer. It's an excuse. God uses us to be as blessing to one another and I would not let my children be abused or anyone else if I have anything to say about it. WE have options and recourses. God does not expect us to just sit by and do nothing. We are to do good at every opportunity. Again just because some people have abused freedoms does not make the freedoms bad."
If anyone is making excuses here, i suggest its more that you are.How should none believers change these laws? ...Do we have enough numbers to do so?.
Becuse you faithful show how little you actually care to TAKE SOME REAL ACTION with regards to this matter....I suggest you faithful prove how wrong you are Marcus ...The only answer might be for us non believers to KEEP showing the faithful up as being the frauds that they are... and hope the youth keep seeing how true it seems....So that you fraudster can liturally hang yourselves in the end.
Which so far seems what you will end up choosing to do.
You can say ...>"I'm commenting here because the fact that there are evil people masquerading as Christians do not invalidate the Bible or Christianity"
But while your bible keeps leading folks up ther gumm tree,to many of them ening up abusing folks and being bigots.
I suggest you are only singing to the choir .And THANKFULLY that wont do much to fool the youth of today!!.
The proof lays in the taste of the pudding,and you allow such complete freedom for choice of which receipe people are allowed to chose ...Then you must accept some responsibility!.Specially as being the (present) majority.
You say..."Again just because some people have abused freedoms does not make the freedoms bad"
And yet im picking you would soon peel out some double standard,if it happened we were talking about how much alcolhol humans are ALLOWED to drink, when they are going to drive!....All of a sudden you would likely suggest,oh no we cannot have these freedoms to just choose...We cannot/should not be expected to have "faith" in humans freedoms to choose.
Or speeding on roads .Because your children might get killed,with road speed you will say....oh no we actually need some regulations.
Or building codes,you wont want to rely on humans deciding to build properly,specially if your children get killed....You`ll be there screaming that some laws and regulations be made.
But with regards to "faith freedoms" ,it tickles your fancy ...So you dont want to care!
But you still proudly proclaim the golden rule written in your bible.
And as Marcus the messiah,try telling us its nothing wrong with the bible and faith.
All we need for a great future,is everyone to become like Marcus.
Sorry personally i dont agree,that theres nothing wrong with the bible and faith.I think the bible and faith tends to make people ignorant and uncaring.
It promotes double standards.
Marcus....."That's like me hating left handed people because every left-handed person I knew slapped me."
But not its not...Because being left handed doesnt cause people to do such things.Left hande people dont cause people to be nasty to other humans....Have you seen evidence of it?..no
But yes we have noticed faith and belief in gods CAN CAUSE folks to act very bad.
...............
Now i admit im no scholar.
But was that silly suggestion of yours, a real red herring!!?? or just a stinky old spanish mackrel?
:)
Marcus said to Shane..."I cannot prove everything but I can't disprove anything in the Bible either. If I could then I would have to reject it as the Word of God. If you can't prove the claim that the Bible is not the Word of God then you can't say that it isn't."
Oh so you really believe the Noah story is honest word of god?.You feel the measurements were correct,and (Gods who should have known all the needs of animals),relayed the story that humans needed to record?.
You dont think the Noah story was just any thoughts of early mere man,that obviously maybe didnt quite yet fully understand the actual needs many animals have to survive.
Have you looked up how much fresh material it is now known even just one elephant needs to consume every day?.
Marcus.
First of all, I never claimed I can prove the bible is false, I claimed I dont believe in it, and I claimed there are contradictions and I have been proving them and I can continue to do so.
Second, the link you sent did not answer my question.
The link dealt with the disagreement between the synoptics and whether Jesus did it on same day or day after?
That was not my question. I asked why John places this event at the beginnig of Jesus ministry shortly after first miracle at Cana, and why the synoptics place it at the time of Jesus triumphal entry near the end of His ministry????
Marcus.
So what if the ruins of Jericho exist what does that prove.
Jericho was a very old city dating way before OT times.
You talk as though Archeologists are in agreement that the bible story in Joshua is true regarding Jericho?
That is simply not the cast.
Yes some (theistic) minded archeologists seem to think so, but others do not at all.
Archeology has shown that there was no world wide flood which sent the religious world in an uproar.
Obviously there is (theistic) archeologists who disagree with the evidence and keep trying to find proof it really happened.
@ Gandalf
1. The vast majority of every piece of research I have is that anyone who smokes modern tobacco products are doing extreme damage to themselves and the people around them. Equating a destructive and an addictive behavior to religion is spurious.
Smoking does not make you evil...it does however make you dead.
2. The Bible does not suggest that the world was going to improve. It says that the world will "wax worse". Asking why hasn't the love of God changed the world for the better is ignoring the fact that it has. D'Souza argues that point rather well. Is there still evil in the world, yes? Is it going to get worse? yes. What are we waiting for? Read Romans 8. I have had many situations in my life when I needed God to change things because no one else could. And He did. The fact that I know that God is going to have to eradicate evil does not mean that I don
t do anything. First I don't add to it. Second, I stand against it. God uses us to change the world. However final judgment is coming and when it does, everything will be set right. Why do you think that a Christian Worldview says that you do nothing and just wait for God to fix everything? What Bible did you read? Your second point is some tirade. I don't understand. If people followed the Golden Rule they would not mistreat or abuse anyone no matter what another thought or felt. You have a lot of rhetoric but I don't know what you are talking about. I mean a person is only responsible for their own actions and thoughts. So when a Christian does evil and then tries to twist scripture to validate it, I have no responsibility for that. Neither does God. I can rest in the truth that God will judge people like that and makes me careful lest I deserve the same judgment.
3. I sure would like to know who you talk to think you can make so many generalities and stereotypes! What exactly are you taking issue with? The same standard that says abortion and gay marriage is wrong says that child abuse is wrong...lying is wrong... stealing is wrong...adultery....all sin is wrong. You don't get to just cherry-pick which sins you are accountable for and which ones you get a pass for. I reject them all because of the standard God has given us. What's disgusting or lowly. Okay, for the sake of argument, let's take abortion and gay marriage off the table. What is your moral code and why are you right to have that moral code? What are the double standards? Don't forget we trust in Jesus because none of us really think the standard in the Bible. I know I deserve to go to hell. I trust that Jesus paid my Bill. Who is going to pay yours? You like to argue that smoking is not bad for everyone (despite evidence), but seem to think that all Christians don't want to do anything help people just control and dominate. It's really sad.
@Gandalf
4. What are you trying to change? I see the western world becoming more and more secularized so I don't know what you are talking about. I don't want people to be like me. I want them to be like Jesus. Again I'm not sure what you are arguing for or against. You don't want building codes? You don't want traffic laws? I would like to know how come you think the Bible promotes ignorance and cruelty? What double standard? I don't think you are reading the same Bible.
5. The Bible does not cause people to be nasty to others. PEople choose to be nasty and then try to twist scripture to validate their sin. The red herring is yours because religion is used as a pretext and its not the cause. If it was the cause then we would see more of it rather than instances of it. You sure like stereotypes.
6. Yes, I Believe that Noah's flood really happened. And there is good evidence to support it. I know an elephant eats about a ton of food everyday. So? Have you ever looked at the evidence for why some scientist accept the genesis account of Noah? I have and why some people people don't. They raised many of the issues you did and there are answers for each of them.
Marcus.
I know so far you are ingoring my temple clearing question, or mabye your searching for an answer.
But in regards to the whole Noah and the flood question that Gandolf asked.
There is an average of 10 million species of animals on this earth that we know of. Only 1.4 million have been named so far.
Do you really think that if we take the measurements given in Genesis of how large Noah's boat was, that it would have actually fit two of each animal????
Do you really think it held a pair of 10 million species????
This is not including the seven pairs of some. And it doesn't include the food to feed them all.
The total number of animals would be phenomenal.
Another question, alot of species would have lived on other continents separated by miles of ocean....how would those animals made the journey to where Noah was?
@Shane
I apologize for misunderstanding the question. John is most likely referring to a separate event than the other Gospels. This isn't just my interpretation.
Here is a scholar that agrees. A Bible Study on the Cleansing of the Temple Passages
Jericho has some ruins that date before OT and it has some that date at the same time as the OT. It was destroyed and rebuilt several times and not necessarily in the same exact place!
The great thing about all sciences is that there is conflict and disagreement. You study the evidence yourself and come to a conclusion. I've looked that the evidence and I am certain that the ruins of Jericho that date back to the time of Joshua leads support to the Bible.
Another interesting point is that I've noticed that a lot of atheists tend to assume that a believer is unable to be objective. You would raise cain (and do...see William Lane Craig's debate against Robert Price from 1999) if the same charge is laid at your door. It's pretty funny. We often take the attitude "Everyone is biased but me." You can't tell me that many atheistic minded archaeologist are not influenced by their atheism to interpret evidence in way that invalidates the Bible because they don't want the conclusion to be that There is a God and we are accountable for every thought, word, and deed - even on a subconsicous level. Much the same way theist are looking for objective proof that the Bible is right. I see nothing wrong with either as long as you are willing to follow the evidence where ever it goes. Saying that most scholars and researchers agree with my position does not determine the truth of said position. So how about let's go back to Mark 2. You said you had an answer for that and I didn't see it. Must have been one of those posts that didn't show up and was lost.
Marcus.
No, I did not lose the post. I was talking about all the scriptures I listed before that makes me think Jesus was never claimed to be God.
I find many scriptures contradictory and thats why I said it could be that they are simply inconsistent, or some scriptures could be interpolations!
But let me check the link you posted and get back to you.
@Shane
How do you know that at Noah's time, that the Continents were not one single continent? We know that at one point there was only one continent. Again I don't support a young earth and my timeline allows for a very early dating of Noah's ark since no one really knows when it happened.
I don't reject evolution. I reject Macro evolution. The Bible does not say Noah was supposed to bring every single species of animal on the ark...just 2 of every kind and 7 of the animals that are used for sacrifices. For example, Noah did not have to bring every single specie of dog, wolf, or other canine. He only had to bring their common ancestor. All the animals we have today could have evolved into their present state especially give geographic isolation. There is no conflict here. And just how big in feet do you think the ark was? Also did you know that the proportions of length to width to height is the same used today in our largest ships that make them almost impossible to capsize? Even if you argue the story is false, how do you account for that. Those proportions were only confirmed a relatively short time ago. If you want to argue that Moses did not write it, how would you account for anyone knowing that in ancient times?
@Shane
I never saw a list of scriptures that you provided showing that Jesus never claimed to be God. Where is it?
Marcus.
I was talking about the examples I wrote before.
Liek"father a pray you pass this cup from me, but I want your will to be done not mine".......etc..
I think those examples I gave contradict Jesus being God!
Mark 2, could just be contradicting those, there's lots of inconsisitency in the bible.
Also many scholars think certain scriptures are interpolations (added in later) to fit new evolving church doctrines.
The Catholic church were the only ones with the gospels for centuries, and their history would show reasons not to trust that fact.
Marcus.
The last time the earth was only one continent was in the time of the dinosaurs.
If your going to tell me that man and dinosaur lived at the same time...lol...im not having this conversation with you..lol
As far as species go, there would still be hundreds of thoudands of "kinds" and evolution takes hundreds of thousands of years?
You mix evolution in to fit with biblical (truths) and im sure that you will only meet defeat with this.
Noah's boat was 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high......nowhere near large enough to fit hundreds of thousands of animals along with the food.
Im pretty sure there was bigger ships during ww2 like the Bizmark!
@Shane
I was talking about the examples I wrote before.
Liek"father a pray you pass this cup from me, but I want your will to be done not mine".......etc..
I think those examples I gave contradict Jesus being God!
Mark 2, could just be contradicting those, there's lots of inconsisitency in the bible.
Also many scholars think certain scriptures are interpolations (added in later) to fit new evolving church doctrines.
The Catholic church were the only ones with the gospels for centuries, and their history would show reasons not to trust that fact.
The example does not contradict the deity of Jesus because Jesus is not saying the Father is greater than He. Jesus is saying that the Father is greater in position because Jesus voluntarily gave up his equality with the Father and condescended to serve to save us. (Philippians 2). Therefore Jesus was never less than God ontologically, but he was positionally. He never stopped being God. I explained my position in those posts on the Trinity. Mark does not contradict John at all. In John you get the highest plain Christology of the four Gospels. I'm a protestant and I know enough history to know that the Catholic Church does not go back to the first century and for the majority of its time the Roman Catholic Church used the Latin Translation - the Vulgate. You can't prove that there were any interpolations regarding the Trinity or the Deity of Christ doctrines in the Greek New Testament. There are no textual variations that prove your point. If you wanna use Erasmus' first printed version of the Greek New Testament, you can't because he added 1 John 5:8 because he could not find it in any Greek scriptures he had and he added because of pressure.
The last time the earth was only one continent was in the time of the dinosaurs.
If your going to tell me that man and dinosaur lived at the same time...lol...im not having this conversation with you..lol
As far as species go, there would still be hundreds of thoudands of "kinds" and evolution takes hundreds of thousands of years?
You mix evolution in to fit with biblical (truths) and im sure that you will only meet defeat with this.
I've done no such thing. I said suggested that there were fewer number of animals needed than you think. It's an old counter and valid. As for the super-continent, again you have prove you know when the Bible says Noah's Flood story happened. I'm arguing that I don't know only that it did happen. The Bible does not tells us when it happened but I think one day we will be able to truly figure that out.
Noah's boat was 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high......nowhere near large enough to fit hundreds of thousands of animals along with the food.
Im pretty sure there was bigger ships during ww2 like the Bizmark!
Again, like I said there was a much smaller number of animals than you are assuming. And you didn't answer my question about the proportions. How did Noah know to use a ship with those proportions?
Marcus.
As for the super continent I said that was in the time of the dinosaurs and according to almost every field of science man would not have been alive at that time!
How long ago could Noah possibly have lived?
The oldest civilizations cannot be more then 1200 years?
Homosapiens have not been around longer then 100,000 years?(according to our knowledge).
As far as Noah knowing how to build the ark that way....?
Who says he really ever did?
All the scriptures tells us is the size of the ark, this could have come from the imagination of any person.
They author could have imagined a ship that large would hold all the animals on the earth at that time (which I seriously dont think it would).
You have to remember, that if the story is fiction, then the author could have assumed a 450 foot boat would hold all the land animals because they only new of so many!
Its like the author knew there was millions of species or that other continents had other animals that the author never seen before!
Yes, this story fits very well with fiction.
As far as interpolations go, I dont know for sure if there is any, im just saying there could be, its very possible.
And yes, there was no Catholic church in the first century. But it was at the council of Nicaea that the bible we have now was decided upon and the scriptures were chosen, and that council was in 325 AD, and was held by the Catholic church in Rome!
Sorry, I meant to say its NOT....like the author of Genesis knew about the millions of species we have, or about the existence of animals on other continents.
@Shane
As for the super continent I said that was in the time of the dinosaurs and according to almost every field of science man would not have been alive at that time!
How long ago could Noah possibly have lived?
The oldest civilizations cannot be more then 1200 years?
Homosapiens have not been around longer then 100,000 years?(according to our knowledge).
Exactly we don't know if there is anything earlier or not
As far as Noah knowing how to build the ark that way....?
Who says he really ever did?
All the scriptures tells us is the size of the ark, this could have come from the imagination of any person.
They author could have imagined a ship that large would hold all the animals on the earth at that time (which I seriously dont think it would).
You have to remember, that if the story is fiction, then the author could have assumed a 450 foot boat would hold all the land animals because they only new of so many!
Its like the author knew there was millions of species or that other continents had other animals that the author never seen before!
Yes, this story fits very well with fiction.
Again, I explained that there would have been no need for that many of animals. 2nd even if it's fictitious (and I don't think it was) how do you explain the fact that the proportion are perfect and the same proportions that we use today in our ships of comparable size and larger to avoid the thing from capsizing.
As far as interpolations go, I dont know for sure if there is any, im just saying there could be, its very possible.
And yes, there was no Catholic church in the first century. But it was at the council of Nicaea that the bible we have now was decided upon and the scriptures were chosen, and that council was in 325 AD, and was held by the Catholic church in Rome!
The Council of Nicea had nothing to do with setting the cannon. It was about Jesus' deity. I explained how impossible it was to talk about interpolations in the text we discussed and why. There is no proof of interpolations.
Marcus.
The council of Nicaea was to decide what scriptures were divine and I also read that the divinity of Jesus was debated upon.
You explain all you want that there were not all the species of animals that we have at Noah's time.....but this is presupposition!
You admit you dont even know when Noah lived, you are making claims with no substantial proof whatsoever!
I highly doubt that if Noah existed, that he lived in a time when all the species we have did not exist.....I mean....do you even know how long the domestic dog has even been around?
Also, Catholic scholars place the flood at around 2958 BC.
The Samaritan bible places it around 2903 BC.
Some protestant scholoars place it around 2345 BC.
Where is your information coming from?
According to archeology, geology, and paleohydrology, there is no physical evidence for a world wide flood.
@Shane
The council of Nicaea was to decide what scriptures were divine and I also read that the divinity of Jesus was debated upon.
Where did you read that Nicea had anything to with deciding the Canon
You explain all you want that there were not all the species of animals that we have at Noah's time.....but this is presupposition!
You admit you dont even know when Noah lived, you are making claims with no substantial proof whatsoever!
I highly doubt that if Noah existed, that he lived in a time when all the species we have did not exist.....I mean....do you even know how long the domestic dog has even been around?
I never said he did I said that only the ancestors of the animals we have today were on the ark.
Also, Catholic scholars place the flood at around 2958 BC.
The Samaritan bible places it around 2903 BC.
Some protestant scholoars place it around 2345 BC.
Where is your information coming from?
So you accept their dating but deny the date of event they are talking about. Classic.
According to archeology, geology, and paleohydrology, there is no physical evidence for a world wide flood.
Not all scientist and scholars agree with you. http://www.christiananswers.net/creation/menu-catastrophe.html
Marcus.
Look council of Nicaea up in wikipedia, it states that it was held to decide Jesus relationship to God, construction of Nicene creed, and promulgation of early canon law.
What are you even talking about regarding Noah anymore?
I stated that there are about 10 million species of animal in known existance today?
You said only the common ancestors were alive at Noah's time, and I highly doubt that....where's the problem?
I have looked up information about the domestic dog.
From what I have found, the domestic dog has been living with humans for around 1400 years! Which also means the domestic dog has been around much longer!
So if what your saying is true, then Naoh must have existed far before 1400 years ago if only the common ancestor of dogs was around then.
This is not in harmony with the estimated dates of the flood I gave you in my last post......now do you understand?
Also, Genesis was written about 1450-1410 BC.
So how could the author of Genesis know about the flood when (according to you) it would have happened more then 12500 years before him?
Marcus.
I messed up my first post...sorry...disregard the last half of it I messed up my numbers....?
Sorry, im in the midst of moving.
I'll say it this way.
I said-"there is around 10 million species of animal known to us now"
You said-"only the common ancestor of these animals was around at the time of Noah and the flood".
I said-"domastic dogs have been living with humans for around 14000 (not 1400) years"...."which means the common ancestor must have lived far longer then 14000 years ago"....."which also means Noah would have had to exist far longer then 14000 years ago" (According to your assumption).
Yet....Genesis was written about 1450-1410 BC.
So how would the author of Genesis known of the flood if it happened more then 10,000 years before according to your assumption.....whew!
Sorry, the rest of my post is fine just this part I f@#%# up...!
@ Shane
I have no problem with Noah or the ancestor of the dog being around 14,000 years ago...I say the earth is way more than 6000 years old. As for the dates you gave for Noah I disagree for the reasons I already said. I agree with Judaism the first 5 books of the Bible were passed down from Moses. The reason Moses knew about Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and the others were because God told him. As for the dating you gave for Genesis, I would like to know where you got that from. I have already written a post describing why I believe the tradition of Moses wrote the Torah.
Marcus said...."Again, I explained that there would have been no need for that many of animals. 2nd even if it's fictitious (and I don't think it was) how do you explain the fact that the proportion are perfect and the same proportions that we use today in our ships of comparable size and larger to avoid the thing from capsizing."
No i dont think you did explain anything.That is unless you are trying to suggest macro evolution happened extremely fast around and after Noahs time.You would need to be suggesting many more species formed after Noah in a extremely fast manner,and also try and then explain why this extreme fast developement hadnt been recorded by anyone else.
There would have already been mega species around Noahs time,many would have most likely even needed fresh food harvested dailey to even be able to continue to survive.Just imagine the ammount of replacement animals,birds and insects that would have been needed,the Noah storys impossible and even kinda laughable, because we are still learning! about the husbandry of how to keep certain different species of animals birds and insects etc, captive today.Many still sometimes die,because we still dont quite understand all their needs.
Marcus listen to Shane,like he said this story fits (fiction)thoughts of man, who`s educated enough to understand certain things,such as the general proportions needed for boats.Why?,because he used boats and already worked out which ones stayed afloat.
The reason the.... "proportion are perfect and the same proportions that we use today in our ships of comparable size and larger to avoid the thing from capsizing."
Is likely very simple.
M---->"Smoking does not make you evil...it does however make you dead."
Not a good comparence at all.Red herring again!!and even more smelly!.
You miscalculated terrible Marcus...Atleast we Can prove! smoking actually DOES sometimes cause cancer.
Lack of religion has ABSOLUTELY NONE!, scientific evidence that it causes evil,nor has it even been proved there is any place called hell.
Comparing that what has been proved!,with a unproven religious asumption, seems something utterly! stupid.
How can we even start to consider the two as being equal??...You would suggest we compare a mere assumtion?,with whats well known a proven fact!
This seems like a highly unprofessional! attitude
Marcus said...."What are you trying to change? I see the western world becoming more and more secularized so I don't know what you are talking about. I don't want people to be like me. I want them to be like Jesus. Again I'm not sure what you are arguing for or against. You don't want building codes? You don't want traffic laws? I would like to know how come you think the Bible promotes ignorance and cruelty? What double standard? I don't think you are reading the same Bible."
Yes im sure maybe the western world is becoming more and more secularized,i think maybe it has to.
And no, its got nothing to do with not wanting any building codes or traffic laws etc.
Cant you understand this is part of the double standard im actually talking about.(We do) have such things as building codes! and traffic laws! etc,but ((we dont)) really have many faith regulations!do we.
(Which is why!!) all these very many wacky christian cults and differing faiths etc are all able to still exist,they all exist under the banner of "freedom of faith" laws that exist
Freedom of faith laws, is more of a kind of more of a "deregulation".
And without existence of these old rights of deregulation of faith....All the Situations like johnstowns or westbro baptist or Waco or Separatist religious shunning etc ,would not exist.And i would likely not have even needed to experience what i did!.
The double standard im talking about is .
Faithful like all the regulation and laws, such as traffic or building, or even quite happy to be pushing for regulation of gay marriage or abortion etc.
But like to keep to the "deregulation" of faith?.
(Thats a double standard).Why is faith continually thought so exempt of regulation ?,when so much else all around us we see is often regulated!.
We expect traffic regulations! and building codes! that thankfully! do protect some of our rights to some general safety and protection!,and yet regulation of faith is still really barbaric and still willy-nilly a lot like some sort of "faith Russian Roulette"
(Often our lives depend on) to whom! it happens you are born to, as to whether you are actually more lucky to be born Catholic, or born under the abusive Westbro batist,or into the deceit of Benny Hinn etc.Or secluded off somewhere in the Mormon or Amish ...etc etc etc
Yes ..Regulation does protects us from danger! with traffic or building codes.
But regulation is really almost non existent!, to protect us against DANGER of abuse of faith.
That is a blatant double standard!
Specially designed and voted for by faithful of old times, to make available (special sanctions) so as to have "freedom" to exercise faith, even if causing harm...ie (jonestown,mormon,westbro,Benny Hinn,etc,etc)... Without much real worry or fear of ever being really held to account !????.
Why do these double standards still exist today Marcus?.
Im not interested in you apologizing, that i experienced the abusive faith that i did!
I`d much prefer to hear and know why are we humans (still not) yet even afforded some decent "protection" by "regulation" of all these faiths now that its actually the year 2010!!
Never mind feeling sorry about what i experienced ...Im far more interested in what ((REAL ACTION)) are you and all your church friends are taking?? to campaigne for "faith regulation"
Faithful seem quite happy to campaigne for regulation of abortion or gay marriage etc etc
So when will they stop this double standard attitude of picking on abortion and rights of gays.
And start concentrating more on fixing (their own big mess) ...and start campaigning for "regulatation of faith"..Some real HONEST ACTION i personally thinks long overdue
@Gandalf
Thanks for clarifying your position. Such regulation has already occurred 500 years ago! Ever hear of the "Reformation"? That is what it was all about. If you look at all wacky cults and differing faiths you are lamenting about they all reject one fundamental result of the Reformation. It's called "Sola Scriptura". Instead of using and following the Bible they take their own slants and ignore the Bible. Name one that doesn't.
@Phillip R Kreyche and @Gandalf
No wonder your exegesis is so weak because your reading comprehension is tainted by arrogance and bias. I never said that I had the view of church history. When I spoke about 2000 years I was obviously referring to the 1st Century church and to Jesus not to what came afterward.
@Gandalf
No i dont think you did explain anything.That is unless you are trying to suggest macro evolution happened extremely fast around and after Noahs time.You would need to be suggesting many more species formed after Noah in a extremely fast manner,and also try and then explain why this extreme fast developement hadnt been recorded by anyone else.
Did you follow all of my argument. Doesn't seem like. I never said anything about macro evolution. All of my examples referred to micro evolution - evolution within species. I disagree that Noah had to save every species of wolf or domesticated Dog. No. Just the common ancestor. When you count life like that, it's not nearly as many animals as you and shane think.
Marcus listen to Shane,like he said this story fits (fiction)thoughts of man, who`s educated enough to understand certain things,such as the general proportions needed for boats.Why?,because he used boats and already worked out which ones stayed afloat.
I don't think you followed my argument.I pointed out that proportion is only used for large ships, not small ones. And it's only been a couple of hundred years that modern ship building has been using the proportion. Again how did the writer of Genesis know even if you believe the story did not happen?
Lack of religion has ABSOLUTELY NONE!, scientific evidence that it causes evil,nor has it even been proved there is any place called hell.
I don't remember arguing that. Again I don't think you understand. I'm saying that we are all evil and deserve judgement if you use the standard of goodness the Bible says. You are the one who like Red herrings and straw men. Not I. You said religion was evil. I was rebutting you, not saying that. And by the way there is going to be more religious people in hell than atheists because atheists make up such a small percentage of humanity in comparision. Stated another way: Even if all atheists go to hell (and you will) there will be more religious people in hell than atheists.
Marcus,
What is the standard of morality you're referring to? "The Bible" is not a single entity, as you well know. Are you referring to the Noahide Laws or the Mitzvot (the only two more or less objective lists of demands that are claimed to be from the Jewish god)?
@Philip R Kreyche
Of Course I am referring to the Bible. IF you mean that the Bible is not a single entity because it contains 66 books and therefore implying that the standards contained in them are conflicting and contradictory then I have challenge for you: Prove your claim. Prove that the 66 books for the Bible do not present a coherent and unified objective standard for morality and ethics. Either admit that it does and you reject that standard as binding on you or you have to prove that there is no standard.
Marcus McElhaney said..."Thanks for clarifying your position. Such regulation has already occurred 500 years ago! Ever hear of the "Reformation"? That is what it was all about. If you look at all wacky cults and differing faiths you are lamenting about they all reject one fundamental result of the Reformation. It's called "Sola Scriptura". Instead of using and following the Bible they take their own slants and ignore the Bible. Name one that doesn't."
What a feeble excuse ...a reformation that happened 500 years, ago you feel is enough??
And then you blame/acuse other faithful folks of faith for supposedly taking their own slants and/or ignoring the bible etc ..just as those folks! would also maybe suggest about you!.
How ignorant of you Marcus.
And if it was about road speed we were discussing here, would you be suggesting maybe road speeds set in times of old of horse and cart was still quite fine and dandy today?.Or levels people drank before driving that was once thought ok and allowable back in the 1950s should be seen as still fine and dandy today?.
Or with these matters that didnt happen to be about rights of faith freedoms, would you display double standards! and be out there actioning with all your other supposedly caring faithful friends,to make sure some new regulations were made?.
Why be so afraid of more faith regulation Marcus? ...Look just admit it you are just another ignorant bigoted faithful person with double standards ...offering people like me who experienced abusive faith ...only your worthless bullshit words of ...oh im sorry to hear you experienced it that way...blah blah bullshit bullshit
While turning a blind eye to taking any real ACTION to help make sure it stops
Im not interested in your bullshit hollow worthless words, of supposedly how sorry you are.
Didnt anybody learn you! ...action! always speaks much much louder than mere worthless words
Marcus said .."I never said anything about macro evolution. All of my examples referred to micro evolution - evolution within species. I disagree that Noah had to save every species of wolf or domesticated Dog. No. Just the common ancestor. When you count life like that, it's not nearly as many animals as you and shane think."
Even if what you say is correct,still the change that would have had to have taken place would have had to have been tremendous ...So why then didnt we know much about evolution until the likes of Darwin?.
And besides even just the common ancestor would have been huge enough!,and considering we (now know today) many things can only survive healthily on eating very fresh foods....Noah not knowing this would have needed to take on many many more replacements,that wouldnt have been able to survive any better either.
No Marcus its only a story.A story written by people of old who were obviously still very uneducated about many things ....Isnt it funny how being uneducated about certain things,can later show things up as being fibs!
M said..." don't think you followed my argument.I pointed out that proportion is only used for large ships, not small ones. And it's only been a couple of hundred years that modern ship building has been using the proportion. Again how did the writer of Genesis know even if you believe the story did not happen?"
Prove it.Show me the data that proves its only been used a couple of hundren years.And only for large ships not small ones etc.
Marcus said ..."Even if all atheists go to hell (and you will) there will be more religious people in hell than atheists."
Oh Marcus you made the postive claim so first please prove there is actually a place called hell....Then prove im going to hell
Until you do this your words are just rubbish and sad threats from some hollow person calling himself a christian who tells me he`s supposedly sorry i personally experienced abusive faith ...in effect handing out mere worthless words that only really serve to make himself feel so wonderful
Gandalf
Marcus said .."I never said anything about macro evolution. All of my examples referred to micro evolution - evolution within species. I disagree that Noah had to save every species of wolf or domesticated Dog. No. Just the common ancestor. When you count life like that, it's not nearly as many animals as you and shane think."
Even if what you say is correct,still the change that would have had to have taken place would have had to have been tremendous ...So why then didnt we know much about evolution until the likes of Darwin?.
And besides even just the common ancestor would have been huge enough!,and considering we (now know today) many things can only survive healthily on eating very fresh foods....Noah not knowing this would have needed to take on many many more replacements,that wouldnt have been able to survive any better either.
No Marcus its only a story.A story written by people of old who were obviously still very uneducated about many things ....Isnt it funny how being uneducated about certain things,can later show things up as being fibs!
Who says Noah did not know anything you are claiming that he did not know? Back that up.
M said..." don't think you followed my argument.I pointed out that proportion is only used for large ships, not small ones. And it's only been a couple of hundred years that modern ship building has been using the proportion. Again how did the writer of Genesis know even if you believe the story did not happen?"
Prove it.Show me the data that proves its only been used a couple of hundren years.And only for large ships not small ones etc.
Not a problem. FACTS ON NOAH'S ARK and List of world's largest wooden ships we know that the largest wooden ship on that other list don't date anyhere near Noah's ark or anywhere near its size. The other ships from ancient times show that the knowledge to make larger ships possible until modern times.
Marcus said ..."Even if all atheists go to hell (and you will) there will be more religious people in hell than atheists."
Oh Marcus you made the postive claim so first please prove there is actually a place called hell....Then prove im going to hell
Until you do this your words are just rubbish and sad threats from some hollow person calling himself a christian who tells me he`s supposedly sorry i personally experienced abusive faith ...in effect handing out mere worthless words that only really serve to make himself feel so wonderful
I was making an argument to show that it doesn't make sense to say that hypocrites mean that Christianity is false. You seem angry that I was just pointing out what the Bible says. MY main claim was not that hell is real, but that there will be more religious people in hell than atheists. The best proof that I have for the existence of hell and who goes to hell is what the Bible says. I'm just agreeing with it because there is evidence that the Bible is true and none that it is false.
@Gandolf
What a feeble excuse ...a reformation that happened 500 years, ago you feel is enough??
The Reformation is enough because scripture is enough to determine faith and practice
And then you blame/acuse other faithful folks of faith for supposedly taking their own slants and/or ignoring the bible etc ..just as those folks! would also maybe suggest about you!.
If you think I have said anything inconsistent w/the Bible, then prove it...let's go to the text and see what the Bible really says.
How ignorant of you Marcus.
Let's just see who is ignorant here.
And if it was about road speed we were discussing here, would you be suggesting maybe road speeds set in times of old of horse and cart was still quite fine and dandy today?.Or levels people drank before driving that was once thought ok and allowable back in the 1950s should be seen as still fine and dandy today?.
Or with these matters that didnt happen to be about rights of faith freedoms, would you display double standards! and be out there actioning with all your other supposedly caring faithful friends,to make sure some new regulations were made?.
it seems that you are saying that the laws of the Bible are anachronistic and don't make sense. Kind of dumb. Do you really see a time when stealing or lying is going to be appropriate as a rule? What laws are you are you referring to that are anachronistic? I am not saying to anyone that the ceremonial laws should be applied today.
Why be so afraid of more faith regulation Marcus? ...Look just admit it you are just another ignorant bigoted faithful person with double standards ...offering people like me who experienced abusive faith ...only your worthless bullshit words of ...oh im sorry to hear you experienced it that way...blah blah bullshit bullshit
While turning a blind eye to taking any real ACTION to help make sure it stops
Im not interested in your bullshit hollow worthless words, of supposedly how sorry you are.
Didnt anybody learn you! ...action! always speaks much much louder than mere worthless words
Who said I'm afraid of faith regulation. People need to be accountable for what they teach and what they do. Who said anything bigoted besides you? "learn you"?...just one word: "grammar". Who's ignorant?
Marcus McElhaney said..."The Reformation is enough because scripture is enough to determine faith and practice"
No i dont think so Marcus.Its quite obvious you are very wrong,we have had scripture around a very long time....During this time much harm has still happened due to people relying on trying to use scripture.
M...."If you think I have said anything inconsistent w/the Bible, then prove it...let's go to the text and see what the Bible really says."
Dont be so very silly...Personally im not even interested in bothering.Go have your fun dealing with putting the multitude of people of the christian faith cults/sect who most certainly will differ on what your personal beliefs are on this subject.
I dont need to argue with you over this matter any further.Its your problem as one of the very many christian sect/cult members !,and not my problem to sort out.
My only job is pointing out you lot still have a problem! which still causes many problems!.
You lot need to start getting your act together and bloody (do something) about fixing it.
Because we are sick of your words of feeling sorry,your words are worthless and hollow ....and only serve to make ((you)) feel wonderful! and prop up your christian bullshit.
M....."it seems that you are saying that the laws of the Bible are anachronistic and don't make sense. "
No im saying laws surrounding faith are long over due for a big overhaul.Im saying if laws with regards to consuming alcohol and driving hadnt changed since 500 years,you would be one of those demanding some more more modern regulation.
Im saying you like many ignorant faithful folk display double standards,because while you like poking your nose into laws of regulation about many other matters .Such as gay marriage or abortion etc...You try telling us faith regulations made 500 years ago, might still be good enough for regulation of faith today.
Its obvious you are very wrong and ignorant about this,because the fact that many abusive christian groups can still form and are still able to exist and cause harm....Like johnstown for one instance.
Is proof sure enough, more regulation must surely be needed and is in fact long overdue.And until that happens,faith freedom is like a smoking gun!, ever ready and waiting for another abusive cult/sect leader to reload and fire .
If your 500 year old regulation was good enough,how the hell was it able that suicide cults/sects can exist?.
And it didnt just happen overnight Marcus ....Even the johnstown problem was long forseen as likely!, by many ...But old 500 year old bullshit crap regulations ....Meant nothing could be done about it
Faith is still mostly unregulated.
And i think thats very wrong.
Marcus....."Who said I'm afraid of faith regulation. People need to be accountable for what they teach and what they do. Who said anything bigoted besides you? "learn you"?...just one word: "grammar". Who's ignorant?"
Oh good ...So ok,now please show me what ((ACTION)) you and your faithful friends have been taking towards promotion of this faith regulation ?.Has your church congregation been in contact with the government asking for more new laws that allow for more faith regulation?
What ACTION have you all been taking Marcus.Point me to information that proves you are taking some action.
...................
Ohh and you can stick your fancy grammer!,and any fancy education you might have.I personally dont feel i need it..Having fancy grammer or fancy education,still dont nessarily make anyone so very smart.
Im sure Bush had great grammer! and a mighty fine bloody education too!....But look what a idiotic mess he`s made of matters hmmm ...Kind of f**king mighty dumb! wasnt it?
And for all your fancy grammer and fine education,i personally dont see its actually helped you in much other than having a great ignorance.
Im not against good grammer or good education !.......But i dont bow down to ignorant people,just because they are scholars
Fair enough?
Marcus said......"Who says Noah did not know anything you are claiming that he did not know? Back that up."
If Noah knew such amazing stuff,why didnt he pass such knowledge on Marcus ....Think about it
Why let such amazing knowledge slip aside ....Knowledge that we are still only just learning about today.
It just dont make sense Marcus ...Well not to somebody like me anyway.
To you as somebody so well educated! with such squeaky clean grammer!,it might somehow seem awesome and really smart ...To forget to pass this type of amazing information on
But to a uneducated person lacking in good grammer,like me
It really seems....well a little kinda stupid!?
What type of real wally womble! would know this great stuff,but yet not bother sharing it, and nor try to pass it on?
Was Noah lacking greatly in common sense and good reason?,or something
Marcus said...."I'm just agreeing with it because there is evidence that the Bible is true and none that it is false."
Well if there is some place called hell and christians will be in heaven.
Im personally quite happy to end up in this hell ...Because if i end up where all the christians are that offered up worthless hollow words of "sorry" for faith abuse experienced by far to many! ....I`ll only end up feeling bloody very angry
And want to bash the "hell" outa them.
So im fine with where ever i go,just so long as its not like ground hog day ...And full of faithful thoughtless folks,once again
..............
The links you posted state its about "FACTS ON NOAH'S ARK"
Yet states ...."A. The Designer was God Himself. We do not need to assume Noah knew anything about ship-building. The instructions for design are given in Gen. 6:14ff. "
Then yet later on states....what "gopher wood" actually is,is actually unknown.
Talks about matters of conclusions,which realistically honestly ammount little more than merely assuming what tends to suit.
Says stuff like..."From the story in the Bible, it also would appear that Noah had no control over the vessel. He, and it contents were at the total mercy of God."
Yet we know what actually happens! to most idiots without control of their boats, relying on the total mercy of god at sea even today.They tend to often sink!
Talks about..."18 inch space at the top that is open all around the vessel. This then would be for ventilation, and when water entered it would drain out somewhere below, similar to the vents in cars."
Ohhh sure... this wee 18inch space would allow the stench to escape enough, before causing death through build up of fumes etc ...Even though modern ocean liners with far more modern ventalation systems still sometimes have these problems that cause animal loss.
And does this bible explain to old Noah, how to keep water from entering this vent...Strange seems.. no.
Says....""pitch" is obscure. It was more likely some resinous material used not only to waterproof the vessel but also to prevent decay"
Funny they didnt think to record the recipe ...We might have had some good uses for this "pitch" that was magic and treated timber so well it was sure to last 100pluse years and still keep the boat timber stable enough to handle very flooded seas.
Did Noahs wisdom suggest,maybe it wasnt something that might be useful for his offspring and their future offspring to know??.
The measurements given for this Ark are not particualy huge,considdering what it was expected to hold ...enough animals plus replacements plus enough stores of food.
Making this Ark not really so very large or roomy....I mean what with room for animal exercise and stuff?
Pfffttttt!! ....Its obviously a early novel story,written by people who had obviously already learned somethings about boats.
Claims stuff like...."B. It's Ratio
The Ark had a ratio (length x width x height) of 30 x 5 x 3. According to ship-builders, this ratio represents an advanced knowledge of ship-building since it is the optimum design for stability in rough seas."
Yet where is the proof that any ship builders actually say this ???.Surely if its honest,they would have been quick to provide the proof being that it was honest and available ..right?
Marcus i think ive already seen enough ...If this is what you considder good proof.
I have to say personally i still dont find it so very convincing....If anything it makes it look even more! to quite likely be merely a early novel story written by ancient man.
Quote off Marcuses proof..."A. It is given in cubits as being 300 cubits long by 50 cubits wide and 30 cubits high. A cubit in the OT was generally about 17.5 inches. However, an Egyptian royal cubit measured about 20.5 inches. Since Moses was educated in Egypt we must allow for the possibility that the longer measurement was meant here. The Ark, therefore, could have measured from 437 feet to 512 feet in length! It was not until the late 19th century that a ship anywhere near this size was built.
B. It's Ratio
The Ark had a ratio (length x width x height) of 30 x 5 x 3. According to ship-builders, this ratio represents an advanced knowledge of ship-building since it is the optimum design for stability in rough seas. The Ark, as designed by God, was virtually impossible to capsize! It would have to have been tilted over 90 degrees in order to capsize.
C. Its Volume.
With the shorter cubit the Ark would have an internal volume of 1,518,750 cubic feet, or the equivalent of 569 standard railroad boxcars. If the average sized animal was the size of a sheep it means the Ark could hold over 125,000 sheep. (Assuming the shape of the Ark to be rectangular there would have been over 100,000 sq. ft of floor space!)"
...........................
Personally i think maybe some of these calculations sound a little hopeful? .
But anyway putting that aside ...considder that (just one) elephant could consume maybe 100-200kgs of food per day and plus also drink 100-250litres of water ...Plus would also need enough room to move and have some exercise,or all manner sicknesses and especially trauma`s! would soon set in !.
People who understand animal health , understand animals will start to die off !! rather quickly when distressed and/or unhappy ...still even today!
Thats just how they are .
Even if the Ark were "the equivalent of 569 standard railroad boxcars"
By the time you considder everything needed ,for survival of so many ...It just isnt going to pan out so very great is it
No its maybe a great early novel story.
But honestly, it can be seen as little more than that really.
Suggested Ark length 450ft
http://ldolphin.org/cisflood.html
..................
Taken from ...Largest ((known)) wooden ships
104 m
(341 ft) 20.3 m
(66 ft) Caligula's Giant Ship ca. 37 foundation of lighthouse Traces of this Roman barge were found during the construction of Rome's Leonardo da Vinci International Airport in Fiumicino, Italy. Some speculate that this ship, or a similar ship, was used to transport the obelisk in St. Peter's Square from Egypt on the orders of Roman emperor Caligula.[25]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world%27s_largest_wooden_ships
.............................
And yep its a "barge" type
Marcus what decent proof do you really have that folks who wrote bibles,could have never known any idea how to go about building a type of large barge?.
@Gandalf
Marcus....."Who said I'm afraid of faith regulation. People need to be accountable for what they teach and what they do. Who said anything bigoted besides you? "learn you"?...just one word: "grammar". Who's ignorant?"
Oh good ...So ok,now please show me what ((ACTION)) you and your faithful friends have been taking towards promotion of this faith regulation ?.Has your church congregation been in contact with the government asking for more new laws that allow for more faith regulation?
What ACTION have you all been taking Marcus.Point me to information that proves you are taking some action.
What kind of action would satisfy you? What kind of crimes are you trying to prevent that we already don't have laws for?
Ohh and you can stick your fancy grammer!,and any fancy education you might have.I personally dont feel i need it..Having fancy grammer or fancy education,still dont nessarily make anyone so very smart.
Im sure Bush had great grammer! and a mighty fine bloody education too!....But look what a idiotic mess he`s made of matters hmmm ...Kind of f**king mighty dumb! wasnt it?
You called me ignorant but where have you been the past 8 years? Everyone who knows anything about the ex-president calls his intellect and education into question.
And for all your fancy grammer and fine education,i personally dont see its actually helped you in much other than having a great ignorance.
Im not against good grammer or good education !.......But i dont bow down to ignorant people,just because they are scholars
Fair enough?
Not fair at all. I smell a double standard. And it stinks. Agreed and education doen't make you intelligent and a lack of education dosn't make you stupid but it does make you ignorant. You kept calling me ignorant becasuse I disagree with you not that you can illustrate my lack of knowledge in what you have accused me of being ignorant. However, you constantly show that you have little idea of many things you are talking about.
Gandalf said
M....."it seems that you are saying that the laws of the Bible are anachronistic and don't make sense. "
No im saying laws surrounding faith are long over due for a big overhaul.Im saying if laws with regards to consuming alcohol and driving hadnt changed since 500 years,you would be one of those demanding some more more modern regulation.
Im saying you like many ignorant faithful folk display double standards,because while you like poking your nose into laws of regulation about many other matters .Such as gay marriage or abortion etc...You try telling us faith regulations made 500 years ago, might still be good enough for regulation of faith today.
Its obvious you are very wrong and ignorant about this,because the fact that many abusive christian groups can still form and are still able to exist and cause harm....Like johnstown for one instance.
Is proof sure enough, more regulation must surely be needed and is in fact long overdue.And until that happens,faith freedom is like a smoking gun!, ever ready and waiting for another abusive cult/sect leader to reload and fire .
If your 500 year old regulation was good enough,how the hell was it able that suicide cults/sects can exist?.
And it didnt just happen overnight Marcus ....Even the johnstown problem was long forseen as likely!, by many ...But old 500 year old bullshit crap regulations ....Meant nothing could be done about it
Faith is still mostly unregulated.
And i think thats very wrong.
You still never said what you are so upset about. What needs to be changed? Jonestown is not a good example becaue they expressly and completley went against scripture and you will not find a person who agree with the doctrines and theology. If you re argument is that such sects and and groups need to be stopped I agreee. And when they come to the attentions of the public they are. When it comes to my attention, I'd be more than happy to stop them. Inm order for your anger against all Christians to be justified you have to show trhat such abuses and crimes are a part of the Bible ands you can't. If I'm ignorant about something it's your point because you are not making any coherrent sense...just raw emotion without any context or proof.
Gandalf said...
No i dont think so Marcus.Its quite obvious you are very wrong,we have had scripture around a very long time....During this time much harm has still happened due to people relying on trying to use scripture.
M...."If you think I have said anything inconsistent w/the Bible, then prove it...let's go to the text and see what the Bible really says."
Dont be so very silly...Personally im not even interested in bothering.Go have your fun dealing with putting the multitude of people of the christian faith cults/sect who most certainly will differ on what your personal beliefs are on this subject.
I dont need to argue with you over this matter any further.Its your problem as one of the very many christian sect/cult members !,and not my problem to sort out.
My only job is pointing out you lot still have a problem! which still causes many problems!.
You lot need to start getting your act together and bloody (do something) about fixing it.
Because we are sick of your words of feeling sorry,your words are worthless and hollow ....and only serve to make ((you)) feel wonderful! and prop up your christian bullshit.
You have hit the nail on the head, The reason why there are crimes and stuff is because people are refusing to obey the commands and views given in scripture. Just as you are! I made the challenge because i see scripture as being rational and able to be understood. If we sit there and read it and consider the content we should not be able to come with widely different understandings that make the will of of God inconsistent and illogical. If that is what you are getting then you are not reading the text but making it up as you go. The "christians" whom you hate who are doing what you consider so wrong - what are they doing and do you think that Scripture says they are right?
Gandalf said
Marcus said......"Who says Noah did not know anything you are claiming that he did not know? Back that up."
If Noah knew such amazing stuff,why didnt he pass such knowledge on Marcus ....Think about it
Why let such amazing knowledge slip aside ....Knowledge that we are still only just learning about today.
It just dont make sense Marcus ...Well not to somebody like me anyway.
To you as somebody so well educated! with such squeaky clean grammer!,it might somehow seem awesome and really smart ...To forget to pass this type of amazing information on
But to a uneducated person lacking in good grammer,like me
It really seems....well a little kinda stupid!?
What type of real wally womble! would know this great stuff,but yet not bother sharing it, and nor try to pass it on?
Was Noah lacking greatly in common sense and good reason?,or something
Do you have any idea of how much ancient knowledge has been lost! Do you realize that we still don't really know how the great pyramids in Egypt were built? And then there's that working 2000 year-old battery in Iraq...we don't know who made it, what it was for...or why. Do you know what knowledge was lost when the library at Alexandria was burned to the ground centuries ago? I don't no one does either. All that knowledge....gone. Noah doesn't seem the ignorant one at all.
Understand that all people who claim to be "Chrsitains" will be going to heaven...but all atheists will be going to hell. And if you want to go there thewn you don't know what it is. You alos make a lot of assertions trying to poke holes in the design of the ark and just succeed in further embarassing yourself. Do you know how to find the Volume of a box? Do You know to convert a cubit to feet or to meters? Do you know anything about building a boat? Do you know how much space and elephant need to live? i have a better question, how did Noah convince all those animals to board the boat? Simple...they were led by God just like Noah was. how did Noah feed them? They had enough food on the ark for all the Animals. Noah was commanded to put up enough food. I'm asserting that the writer of Genesis was Moses and he knew of the size of Noah's ark because God told him. Even if you rject my answer the writer(s) of Genesis knew no one else seems to know until modern times.
Marcus..."What kind of action would satisfy you? What kind of crimes are you trying to prevent that we already don't have laws for?"
Its so obvious we dont have laws to protect people against faith abuse.How else do you think these abusive faiths get to first form and continue Marcus?.
We have regulation of Schooling,regulation of Health and hospital practices etc etc.We have people going around from time to time who investigate and audit all these other practices.Finding out if people are happy with the services,investigating any malpractice etc.
But the practice of faiths gets free rein.....And for the existence of this double standard,some must pay the price
Marcus said...."You called me ignorant but where have you been the past 8 years? Everyone who knows anything about the ex-president calls his intellect and education into question."
But thats exactly my point Marcus.My point is you can have great grammer and a excellent education,yet still be F**king damn thick!
L.o.L
Marcus said ..."The reason why there are crimes and stuff is because people are refusing to obey the commands and views given in scripture."
Oh what ever .
I suggest you just proved my point,education and grammer dont stop a person from still being f**king thick.
You say the only problem is people want to be evil and disobey the bible.
You are talking about my own family here.And you are bloody wrong Marcus....You are one ignorant fool!.
I dont like the way my faithful family lived their faith.But still i will not stand by quietly! while ignorant f**ckers like you try to throw (all the blame) their way.And if we were face to face,by jove i`d sure still tell you straight out what i think of f**king ignorant thoughtless arsholes of faith like you.
This will be my last reply to you on this subject.Stay ignorant if it pleases you.
Im just glad many of the youth of today! are getting to see people like you ignorantly blaming the people for everything,about situations caused by a old mess of book known as the bible.
It is the ignorance of people like Marcus,that will help slowly rid this earth of faith.
You need to have faithfully brainless! to really believe all people in abusive faiths etc ,do so only because they personally wish to be evil etc.
It happens because your bible the manual of life ....Gods word
Is a utter mess and is honestly quite useless as any manual of life for all people to follow.
Marcus said...."Jonestown is not a good example becaue they expressly and completley went against scripture and you will not find a person who agree with the doctrines and theology."
Marcus you faithful idiot.Maybe your bible tells us not to drink and drive either.
Are you such a f**king ignorant walley that you`d suggest we dont need any new drink-drive laws,because your f**king bible supposedly tells people not to crink and drive ?.
Its really a waste of time talking to ignorant people of faith like you.
Your faith makes you brain dead!.
Your bible might also tell us not to commit abortion too ....So then ...why are people of faith seeking modern laws to govern these things ?.
Your suggestion is the bible law is all we need.
I will no longer discuss these matters with you Marcus.
Like i said its become obvious its pointless.Your faith makes you brain dead.
Marcus said...."Do you have any idea of how much ancient knowledge has been lost! Do you realize that we still don't really know how the great pyramids in Egypt were built? And then there's that working 2000 year-old battery in Iraq...we don't know who made it, what it was for...or why"
So what? ....big f**king deal
The difference is the bible writers have taken the time to explain much about Noah and the ark etc.
So your bleat on about other ancient knowledge being lost etc ....Dont do anything to explain why with the Noah story more wasnt explained ...If this knowledge was known.
See Marcus, so happens we have nothing written about where those batterys came.We have nothing written about how they built piramids.
This is the big difference between these things and the Noah story.There is no good reason why such important things would not have been recorded also,except that they couldnt record what they never yet knew about.
Marcus said....."You alos make a lot of assertions trying to poke holes in the design of the ark and just succeed in further embarassing yourself."
Oh what ever! Marcus, i dont give a damn what you think about me,so happens i dont really think that much of you either ..Infact after you laid all blame on my faithful family,im inclined to think you are a right f**king ignorant arsehole!. and but yes i do happen to know how to find the volume of a box.But im finshed with this discussion with you ....
You can call me what you like ....But i suggest you came here supposedly wanting to prove you could prove many folks here wrong.
But personally i havent seen you prove f**k all .Maybe you managed to prove ! how somebody can be educated! and even have great grammer!, yet still be a real faithful ignorant tossa
You managed to prove that people like you and Bush have these things in common ...L.o.L
Well, that's kinda a weird question. By "The Bible", ya mean all the documents contained within. This wouldn't mean, however, that the events recorded by the documents didn't occur, or would be recorded by others.
So it's kinda a weird question. But I think I kinda know what you're tryin' to ask, and I would answer: an interventionist Deist, or agnostic. Or maybe a Muslim (but I don't know how the Quran could exist if the Bible didn't).
@Gandalf
Marcus you faithful idiot.Maybe your bible tells us not to drink and drive either.
Gandalf, the Bible does not cover drinking and driving but it does tell us to love our neighbors. Putting others in danger by drinking driving is clearly against such a teaching.
Your suggestion is the bible law is all we need.
When did I say that? All I mean is that the Bible is easy to show that the Jim Jones was nuts. He didn't believe the Bible anymore than you do. You have more in common with him than I do.
Its really a waste of time talking to ignorant people of faith like you.
Aw...I was enjoying laughing at your arguments.
So your bleat on about other ancient knowledge being lost etc ....Dont do anything to explain why with the Noah story more wasnt explained ...If this knowledge was known.
See Marcus, so happens we have nothing written about where those batterys came.We have nothing written about how they built piramids.
Gandalf, think about it. You said that it makes no sense to think that great technology can be lost. I countered your "argument" by pointing out that ancient and useful knowledge has been lost repeatedly. The battery is another great example as is Noah's Ark. We don't need to have anything written about the battery because one has actually been dug up and dated to the first century AD. Your argument is too pathetic to be funny.
Someone knew enought to make a working battery 2000 years ago. So I guess they evolved. Or may be aliens did it...like the pyramids. Get real.
You can call me what you like ....But i suggest you came here supposedly wanting to prove you could prove many folks here wrong.
But personally i havent seen you prove f**k all .Maybe you managed to prove ! how somebody can be educated! and even have great grammer!, yet still be a real faithful ignorant tossa
The only thing I have called you is ignorant, unwise, and silly. You continue to prove it with each argument you make. Thanks by the way. Also profanity seems to be your way of expression at best. Sad.
You managed to prove that people like you and Bush have these things in common ...L.o.L
I'd rather have some things in common with George Bush than Jim Jones as you do.
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