My Debate Notes: "God Probably Doesn't Exist Given the Existence of Horrendous Suffering, by John W. Loftus

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I had mentioned this debate yesterday. Here is my planned opening statement: 

My focus is on heinous, hideous, horrific levels of horrendous suffering given the belief in a theistic God who is all-powerful, all-knowing, and perfect good. Unless we focus on that kind of suffering, the kind that seems needless and absolutely inexplicable, we’ll fail to see this problem for what it is. Instead of focusing on bruises, sprained ankles, slaps on the cheek, a clump of hair being pulled out, or sicknesses like colds and the flu, let’s focus instead on people who have been burned alive, boiled alive, and buried alive.

God may well have good reasons to allow for a modest amount of pain since we have physical bodies and we will all die. So we can set aside that kind of suffering as largely uninteresting in this discussion. Horrendous suffering, by contrast, should be our focus. My perspective is a “minimal facts” approach to the problem of suffering. I’m arguing that God should not allow a specific kind of suffering, horrendous suffering. Failing to focus on it is a failure to honestly search for the truth, for when horrendous suffering is our focus, the standard theodicies don’t work.

My contention is that the theistic God probably doesn't exist given the existence of horrendous suffering. Just ask what we would expect to find if we woke up one morning for the very first time. Would we expect to find so much horrendous suffering on this planet? I submit that people would never guess there would be as much horrendous suffering as there is in our world if such a God existed. For it’s clear that God should never allow it. We wouldn’t expect the existence of God since he could prevent it, should prevent it, yet doesn’t prevent it.

Today I'll Be Debating God and Horrendous Suffering at 3 PM EST

Wish me good providence. No, good luck. No, a well prepared brain. Check back as I'll be posting my ten minute opener later. I go 2nd. I hope it goes well.

The 1941 Babi Yar Massacre vs. God-Is-Good Theology

Horrendous suffering can never be ignored in guessing about god(s)

Please be aware that a primary role of the clergy is always to promote their own cherished version of the faith, despite the fact that there are thousands of competing denominations, brands, sects, divisions into which Christianity has shattered. Promoting their versions of faith commonly means discouraging curiosity. An elderly Catholic woman once told me that the priests warned children not to think about what they’d learned in catechism. Which is a way of claiming that the priests alone possess Christian truth—in other words, they are paid propagandists for their brand. 

It would be so refreshing if devout folks could grasp this reality.

The Cult-Goofy, Defective Final 16th Chapter of Mark’s Gospel

Wrapping up my honest sermons on this first gospel

For many centuries, religious scholars and laity alike had no clue that the final chapter of Mark is defective. But as ancient manuscripts came to light, there was a surprise: the original gospel ended at 16:8, “So they went out and fled from the tomb, for terror and amazement had seized them, and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.” They here refers to the three women mentioned in verse 1, who had gone to the tomb to anoint Jesus’ body with spices. How could the gospel end so abruptly? It’s possible that the original scroll was damaged, that is, the end of the scroll somehow got torn off. It just seems so unlikely that the author would have ended the gospel this way—although some scholars have argued that it’s possible.

"Why Adam and Eve Sinned & Problems with Free Will" by Edouard Tahmizian

"Why Adam and Eve Sinned & Problems with Free Will" by Edouard Tahmizian is Secular Web's Editor's Choice, Kiosk Article! Congrats goes to Edouard who is the Vice President & Social Media Manager of Internet Infidels! LINK

For Good Reason, Respect for Clergy Has Been in Decline

The clergy themselves are to blame

Many times on this blog I have wondered, “Why isn’t membership in the Catholic church down to zero by now?” Are its faithful members just not paying attention? Their church has paid more than four billion dollars in legal settlements for lawsuits involving clergy rape and abuse of children. Can we imagine any greater scandal? However, churches are not empty because Catholic theology promises eternal life, hence even alarming scandals can be dismissed or ignored. Moreover, its clergy have mastered show business. Their churches are magnificent, the rituals and ceremonies are impressive, and the budgets for clergy costumes must be especially excessive. Such razzle-dazzle keeps the congregants in awe: they show up to get their beliefs, their confidence in eternal life, boosted. Years ago I knew a devout Catholic woman who held on to their faith with fierce determination because she wants to see her mother again in heaven.

Convincing Evidence for a Real Jesus Still Can’t Be Found

Close study of the Bible and other ancient texts isn’t helping

My very devout mother was born in southern Indiana in 1905. It was always a puzzle to me that she was not a fundamentalist. I recall vividly that she never watched Billy Graham on TV—she was put off by his dramatic waving of the Bible above his head. She never attended college, but she read voraciously. While my father and I watched TV, she would go to another room in the house to read—especially history, biography. I remember so many books in the house. I’m grateful that her influence had more impact on me than my father’s devotion to TV.

 

When I was a teenager, she bought the 12-volume Interpreter’s Bible, a product of Protestant theology. I read it too and thought there was nothing unusual about this purchase. She once asked a new pastor at our church about something she’d read in one of the volumes—and he was stunned: “You have the Interpreter’s Bible?” Her non-fundamentalist piety rubbed off on me, and she allowed me to take those 12 hefty volumes with me when I went away to college.

"Christian Nationalism—The Danger That It Poses to Our Democracy" by John W. Loftus

The following link will take you to Google Slides for my presentation on this topic. It was sponsored by CFI Indiana this past Saturday.

LINK. Let me know this works. I press on the down arrow to switch slides. If you see the "Slideshow" click on it, or if you see the "View" tab click on it then click on "slideshow". Not bad if I say so myself! Keep in mind the state of democracy in the USA can change.

The Warsaw Ghetto vs. God-Is-Good Theology

Horrendous suffering can never be ignored to protect god(s)

Not too long ago, a post quoting Bertrand Russell popped up on social media. It was an excerpt from his 1930 essay, Has Religion Made Useful Contributions to Civilization? Much of this essay is devoted to demonstrating that the concept of a god who is all-loving, all-powerful, and all-knowing cannot be reconciled with the depth of pain and misery that we see in the world. His conclusion was that it makes no sense at all to believe in such a god. It was in 1927 that he published Why I Am Not a Christian. He also proposed a thought experiment, The Cosmic Teapot, pointing out that if he claimed that there was a tiny teapot orbiting the sun between Earth and Mars—that could not be detected by any telescope—it is an unfalsifiable claim. The analogy is that claims about gods likewise lack reliable, verifiable, objective data, and are thus not to be believed.

Here is a Visual of the Book "God and Horrendous Suffering"

In case you need a visual this is a very B.I.G. book! 600+ pages! Just released! You’ll  get your money's worth. Get it. Review it. Laud it. Praise it. Love it. Hate it. It should challenge most readers to consider what we say. Can you deal with it? Try. How much will you agree? FAFO! :-) LINK

Honest Sermons on the Gospel of Mark, Chapter 15

The origins of anti-Semitism in this first gospel 

These 47 verses of chapter 15 should be read carefully, with curiosity fully engaged. How did the author of Mark’s gospel know—how did he find out about—any of what he depicts here? There is wide consensus among scholars that this gospel was written anonymously after the devastating war in Palestine that included the destruction of the Jerusalem temple in 70 CE. The label Mark was attached to the gospel later, and there has been much discussion of the geographical errors the author made: it would seem he was far removed from scene of his story.

The Best Cure for Christianity Is Reading the Bible, Essay Number 8

There is far too much mediocre, alarming Jesus-script in the gospels

                                                                                                

On social media especially, there is a lot of criticism of Christianity. That is, people who claim to be Christians are accused of not following the teaching of Jesus—who is idealized, credited with a reputation that is not based on what we find in the gospels. Reading the gospels carefully, with critical thinking fully engaged, is not a common practice of the devout. If it were, there would be a lot of alarm and panic. 

 

Ironically, the alarm and panic can be reduced by a stark truth:  There is no way whatever to verify any of the sayings attributed to Jesus in the gospels, which is why the term Jesus-script should be used instead of Jesus quotes. As is all too obvious from comparing the four gospels, their authors had different agendas. Claiming that they were all divinely inspired is a phony diversion. The authors created Jesus-script out of their imaginations. And so much of it reflects their obsession with promoting the Jesus cult. There is a list of 292 bad, mediocre, alarming examples of Jesus-script at this website.

Some Disturbing [Preconciliar] Catholic Art:

Figure 1: Some disturbing Preconciliar Roman Catholic art that I discovered on Pinterest. ‘Passiōnis Īnstrūmenta’, ‘The Instruments of the Passion’.

Bad News About Christianity has some excellent posts about Christianity’s obsession with death. We have ‘[Christianity and] Necrophilia’, for example. Bad News About Christianity’s post: ‘[Christianity and] Sadomasochism’ is also pertinent to our discussion.

In the above image, we have the Instruments of the Passion portrayed. We have the cockerel that crowed when Peter denied him. We have the basin of water wherewith Pontius Pilate washed his hands of the death of Jesus. We have the seamless garment for which the soldiers involved in the Crucifixion threw dice. We have the torches that the soldiers used when arresting Christ in the Garden of Olives. The portrait of Christ is itself an instrument of the passion; it is Veronica’s veil containing the miraculous imprint of the Holy Face of Jesus.

The Latin captions that go along with this image are interesting:

‘Respice mē! Mē conde animō! Mē pectore servā!’

‘Arma vidēs: hīs mortem peccāta daemōna vīcī.’

‘Haec animō memorī sacra trophaea tenē!’

I would idiomatically translate the above Latin captions into Biblical English as:

‘Look thou at me! Bury thou me in thine heart! Serve thou me with thy soul!’

‘Thou seest the weapons: with these I conquered sin [and] the Devil.’

‘Keep thou these sacred trophies[, mementos of the defeats suffered by death and the Devil by means of my Passion,] in mind!’

I would idiomatically translate the above Latin captions into Modern English as:

‘Look at me! Bury me in your heart! Serve me with your soul!’

‘You see the weapons: with these I conquered sin [and] the Devil.’

‘Keep these sacred trophies[, mementos of the defeats suffered by death and the Devil by means of my Passion,] in mind!’

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Ciarán Aodh Mac Ardghail (Ciarán Mc Ardle) is a digital creator from Ireland. Here is his linktree. Here is his YouTube Channel. Here is his LinkedIn. Here is his Instagram.

Horrendous Suffering Cannot Be Ignored in Guessing about God

Religious delusions no longer serve the needs of humanity

In my article here last week, I described three brick walls that Christian theology collides with, and which, in fact, demonstrate that it faces insurmountable problems: 1. Horrendous suffering, 2. Catastrophic superstition, and 3. The vicious god depicted in the Bible. Devout believers fail to detect the superstitions because these bizarre beliefs were imbedded in their brains at a very early age. When I was a kid, attending a Methodist church in rural Indiana, every quarter we had communion Sunday: we pretended to eat the body of Jesus (little chunks of Wonderbread) and drink his blood (thimble-sized cups of grape juice). Nobody was there to tell me, “That’s pretty gross, you know.” On the other side of town, Catholics did this every Sunday and truly believed that, by the miracle of the mass, they were eating and drinking the real Jesus. This is what I mean by catastrophic superstition. In no way does this improve our understanding of reality.

1. Horrendous Suffering 2. Catastrophic Superstitions 3. A Vicious God

Christian theology is shattered by these three factors

For centuries, the devout—determined to preserve and protect their faith—have ignored reality. They have turned off curiosity and critical thinking. That just doesn’t work anymore. 

 

There are major brick walls that Christian theology smacks into—and these should put a stop to belief in the god it claims to adore, follow, and worship. Let’s consider three of these brick walls.

The 2nd edition of "God and Horrendous Suffering" is now available as PAPERBACK book!!!

That's right, finally! The 2nd edition of "God and Horrendous Suffering" is now available as a PAPERBACK book!!! Be one of the very first readers to get it. JUST CLICK HERE. If you want a Kindle ebook instead, CLICK HERE. If you want to see the Preface, Blurbs, Contents, Introduction, and read about the contributors, CLICK HERE. I'm very excited. Please spread the word! I thank everyone that helped make this happen, especially the expert contributors to this anthology!!

Honest Sermons about the Gospel of Mark: Chapter 14

There is more bragging here about the holy hero’s colossal ego  

At 72 verses, Mark 14 is the longest chapter in this gospel. It also gives an account of many conversations, and this should prompt curiosity. How did the author of Mark’s gospel find out about these conversations? Any curious reader today would ask, “Was someone on hand to take notes—and were these notes preserved in an archive that the author of Mark, decades later—would have access to? There is major consensus in Christian academia that this gospel was composed after the disastrous war fought between the Jews and the Romans, during which, in 70 C.E. the Jerusalem and its temple were destroyed (as depicted in Mark 13). Would archives have survived, would detailed documentation have survived? Scholars have no idea, moreover, where this gospel was written, or by whom.

Announcing the 2nd Edition of "God and Horrendous Suffering"!!

The 2nd edition of "God and Horrendous Suffering" is now available as a Kindle book!!! CLICK Here!!

If you want to see the Preface, Blurbs, Contents, Introduction, and learn about the contributors, CLICK HERE !!

I'm very excited. Please spread the word! I thank everyone that helped make this happen, especially the expert contributors to this anthology!!

Richard Carrier On Why There Is No Free-Will

Edouard Tahmizian had an interesting discussion with Richard Carrier about the metaphysical impossibility of libertarian free will. Our actions are aimed at fulfilling our desires; but where did our desires come from? Did we choose our desires, or simply discover that we had them? I offer two considerations below.

A Few Suggestions: New Year Resolutions for Christians

Let curiosity and a desire for knowledge seize the day

Many years ago, when I was the pastor of two Methodist churches in Massachusetts, the clergy in town—across several denominations—were fond of occasionally having “ecumenical” services. That is, all of the clergy would take part, I guess to make the point that we all worshipped Jesus Christ. But as we gathered to take part in these events, one thing we didn’t do was discuss theology, because we knew we didn’t agree. On one such occasion, when we were “backstage” at a Catholic church, I noticed a tiny sink. The priest explained that it drained, not into the city sewer, but it had a small pipe that went through the wall, and emptied into the grass outside. This was the sink into which left-over wine from the mass was poured. Since it had been converted—through the miracle of the mass—into the real blood of Jesus, it would be a sacrilege to have it flow into the sewer. I could hardly imagine a better example of magical thinking, on a par with the fairy-god-mother in Cinderella turning a pumpkin into a coach. It would have been pointless to argue about such theological nonsense.

Announcing the First Draft of the Cover To My Last Book:

As I said it's just the first draft. I love the concept. You can read the Preface, Blurbs, Contents and Introduction to "God and Horrendous Suffering" 2nd Edition RIGHT HERE.

Christians: Please Read the Gospels, Think, Ponder—Non-Stop

Which is precisely what the clergy don’t want you to do

It is especially important to study the origins of the Christian faith, and—above all—the origins of Jesus. It doesn’t take all that much effort to discover that the four gospel authors didn’t agree about where Jesus came from. At the opening of the first gospel to be written, Mark, Jesus of Nazareth of Galilee shows up to be baptized by John the Baptist, a ritual that John has announced is for “the forgiveness of sins.” Jesus is soon identified—by a voice booming from the sky—as god’s beloved son, with whom he is well pleased. The author of John, the final gospel, who specialized in theology inflation, tells his readers right up front, that Jesus was present at creation:

 

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being.”

The Christian Faith Makes No Sense At All

My latest article at the Secular Web. You're welcome. Please share! The Christian Faith Makes No Sense At All.

The Best Cure for Christianity Is Reading the Bible, Essay No. 7

Big problems with the apostle Paul: please stop calling him a saint

Just how did the apostle Paul become convinced that Jesus was the key to salvation? He assured one of his congregations that he heard this news directly from Jesus himself, in a heavenly vision: 

 

“For I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel that was proclaimed by me is not of human origin, for I did not receive it from a human source, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. (Galatians 1:11-12)

Honest Sermons on the Gospel of Mark: Chapter 13

How can devout Christians take this ancient superstition

seriously?

If Mark 13 were printed alone as a pamphlet—with the names changed—and handed out by goofy cult fanatics on street corners, churchgoers would be horrified by the cruelty, the promised violence and suffering we find in this chapter. Yet, there it is in the Christian Bible, in the first gospel to be written. 

 

In fact, chapter 13 gives us a major clue as to when this gospel was composed. The chapter opens with Jesus leaving the Jerusalem temple with his disciples. They are impressed with the temple complex, but Jesus makes a prediction: “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left here upon another: all will be thrown down.” (v. 2)

The Case for Jesus as a Real Historical Person Continues to Erode

“But I feel Jesus in my heart” is evidence for what you’re feeling

In my most recent articles here I explained why we no longer need to pay much attention to the Sermon on the Mount and the Ten Commandments. Most devout churchgoers seem unaware of the many problems presented by these Bible texts. But there’s an even more gigantic problem that is outside the horizon of awareness of those who persist in their devotion to Jesus. There has been turmoil in Jesus-studies for quite some time now, because historians are having a tough time locating reliable, verifiable, objective evidence that Jesus really did exist. The laity would not be able to grasp the problem, because—well, because… “Aren’t the gospels all the proof we need?” 

 

There is little awareness of the major problems presented by the gospels. How thoroughly do devout folks actually study the gospels? The clergy, from their pulpits, share Jesus-script that gives a boost to his reputation, but are careful not to mention the chilling, horrible Jesus-script that is also in the gospels. Real study of the gospels means reading them each carefully, pondering the many troubling aspects of them, comparing these four different versions of Jesus. The next level of study would be reading books written by scholars about the gospels—both devout and secular scholars. Here the laity would be entering that world of turmoil in Jesus-studies I mentioned above.

Should We Really Pay Attention to the Latest Research?

Well it depends. When evangelical apologists/theologians claim liberals, agnostics, and atheists should pay attention to their latest research, they really mean we should pay attention to their latest obfuscations, special pleadings, and theological gerrymandering.

Why We Shouldn’t Pay Much Attention to the Ten Commandments

Among other reasons, it’s a very defective list

Not too long ago I saw a funny comment on social media, in the wake of recent pressures to have the Ten Commandments displayed in school classrooms: “The adultery rate among teenage boys and girls has fallen dramatically since these holy commandments have been put back in schools.” Never mind, I suppose, that the violation of church/state separation has increased. But the devout champions of this ancient law code seem not to notice that it is crippled with defects. It is so hard to take it seriously.

Happy Thanksgiving!

I'm happy to share this interview of me on YouTube. Happy Thanksgiving! LINK.

The Problem of Evil Will Pulverize Theism into Oblivion Thanks To James Sterba, Paul Draper, and My New Book On Horrendous Suffering!

This latest book by Paul Draper should be very good! This should lead to a triple thumping to take place against Christian theism! It's coming from books by Sterba, Draper, and Loftus! The 2nd edition of mine comes out in about two weeks!

Why We Shouldn’t Pay Much Attention to the Sermon on the Mount

Do the devout read it much anyway—and take it seriously? 

When we hear the words, Sermon on the Mount, we might be tempted to think it’s the pinnacle of moral teaching. Well, that’s been the church hype for centuries, but this doesn’t quite match reality. And does anybody ask the daring question: “Are these really the words of Jesus?” Since the gospel of Mark, by widespread scholarly consensus, was the first written, it’s a major puzzle indeed that the author was unaware of these supposed words of Jesus. The major thrust of Mark’s gospel is the expected arrival—very soon! —of the kingdom of god on earth. At Jesus’ trial, described in Mark 14, he promises those attending that they would see him coming on the clouds of heaven (v. 62). The author was dead wrong about this, which was his obsession—hence his gospel is lacking in moral teachings.

Honest Sermons about the Gospel of Mark: Chapter 12

An argumentative holy hero promotes the Jesus-cult 

Many religions insist that their spiritual truths derive from divine inspiration. Christianity especially. The Bible is revered, indeed worshipped, because of its supposed origin. In many churches, a splendid copy of the Bible is on the altar, to remind the devout that cherishing, venerating it is the right thing to do.

 

Hence it is difficult for the laity to grasp that, for the gospels especially, none of the words and deeds of Jesus can be verified. The gospel authors didn’t identify their sources, never reveal from whence their supposed information about Jesus came. Since they were written decades after the death of Jesus—Mark being the first, some forty years later—careful, critical readers should be suspicious, indeed skeptical. Whoever reads the gospel of Mark several times can see that the author based the story on theology-inflamed imagination: he was not a historian. The lack of cited sources is a dead giveaway. The author of this gospel was focused on defending and promoting the Jesus-cult.

My peer-reviewed paper, "An Atheist Morality Without God", has been published at Religions.

My peer-reviewed paper, "An Atheist Morality Without God", has been published at Religions. Atheists now have an objective morality without God! 😉 Yay! Click Here To Enjoy! Please please share!

As Belief in God(s) Fades, Does Morality Diminish As Well?

John Loftus and Russell Blackford make the case for atheist morality

Many years ago I knew a devout Catholic woman who would tolerate no questioning of her faith, because—full stop—she was eager to see her mother again in heaven. I recently was told that she visits psychics to communicate with her mom. Of course, the hope of gaining eternal life has fueled many religions, Christianity especially. In the case of this woman, catechism had shaped her mind so thoroughly, so rigidly, that “thinking outside the Catholic box” was never an option for her later in life. I have no doubt whatever that she is a good person, but fanatically holding on to ancient superstitions is not a great benefit for humanity.

The Great Lisbon Earthquake of 1755

On Sunday, November 1, 1755, in Lisbon, Portugal, a great earthquake took place while Christians were worshipping their good all-powerful God. Since it was All Saints Day more Christians were in church than on other Sundays. Known as the Great Lisbon Earthquake it shattered and destroyed church buildings, which fell down on, and killed worshippers in their favorite pews. Along with subsequent fires and a tsunami generated by the earthquake, it killed an estimated 60,000 people in Lisbon alone. If there was ever a message God might want to send his own people, this was not it! Who could have imagined that such a horrific event would still be told (by me) 270 years later, in 2025? It has surely turned believers away from their faith over the years.

God had plenty of ways to avoid such an utterly devastating tragedy. If he’s infinitely powerful and knowledgeable he didn’t have to create the earth with a moving crust and upper mantle, which is divided into several major tectonic plates that move relative to each other. This movement, known as plate tectonics, occurs at rates of about 10 to 40 millimeters per year (0.4 to 1.6 inches/year). As the plates move they produce earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. Surely a God who reveals truth could warn people not to build cities on top of the faults in the earth’s crust, and tell us exactly where they are located. It could be written in a science book located as the final one in the New Testament itself. Instead, the earth’s fault lines attract us to build our cities on or near them, since that’s where we built our castles, and cities, near water, and other precious minerals.

If nothing else a miracle working God could have stopped the Lisbon earthquake from happening. Had he done so no one would know that he did, because it didn’t happen! God could have remained hidden for some hidden reason, and saved thousands and thousands of lives. Then, with a perpetual miracle God could make sure this earthquake would never take place, so long as the city of Lisbon existed. Oh, come on now, seriously, at the very least an infinitely powerful God could have kept it from happening on All Saints Day at the time of worship!

Out from the ashes came one of the most important counter-apologetics books to be published, Candide. Witten by Voltaire in 1759, it was provoked by the Seven Years’ War in 1756-1763, which was a conflict involving major European countries, along with the Lisbon earthquake in 1755. In it Voltaire made fun of the theodicy of Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, who had argued “this is the best of all possible worlds.” This satirical fictitious novel depicted the character Candide as a young man who had been indoctrinated in the doctrine of Leibnizian optimism. He gradually becomes disillusioned with this sanguine theodicy after coming to grips one terrible event after another. It shows him being expelled from his home, leaving him to fend for himself in a harsh world with war, poverty, and general cruelty.

In our day evangelical apologist Norman Geisler defended Leibniz by saying, “this may not be the best of all possible worlds but it is the best way to get us to the best of all possible worlds.” But such a response leaves open the objection that just one instance of needless suffering can refute such a theodicy, and there are millions of them!