The Martyrdom Argument

The Martyrdom Argument

A popular argument for the resurrection these days is one that has been popularized by Christian apologist and author, Josh McDowell. The argument goes something like this:

People will die for a lie if they think it's a lie but no one will die for something they knew to be false. If the resurrection happened, the disciples knew it! They wouldn't die for something that they knew to be a lie so we can only conclude that they died for something that they knew to be true!

There is a fatal flaw in this argument. It is based on a false dichotomy. It presumes, without proving, that the disciples were in an inescapable position to know whether the resurrection happened and that they couldn't have been mistaken. This results in a false dichotomy, with the only choices being a deliberate lie and honest truth. I ask about the possibility of delusion? This is the problem with this argument: it is sophistry. It creates a simplistic argument by ruling out the possibility of delusion on epistemic grounds rather than trying to refute the possibility of delusion on historical grounds. If we are to grant that the earliest Christians believed in an 1.) empty tomb, that 2.) Jesus had a risen body of flesh, and that 3.) God had indeed raised him from the dead, we are at best left with three possibilities: the truth, a deliberate lie, and sincere but powerful delusion.

I don't believe that the resurrection happened for two reasons. First of all, I believe that supernatural/miraculous claims (i.e. God raised Jesus from the dead) require supernatural/miraculous forms of evidence. I have no supernatural/miraculous evidence today or from history. I have never had an audio/visual experience from God, in which God appeared to me, face-to-face, telling me that his Son has risen from the dead. I have never had God reveal to me something in the form such a theophany and giving me some powerful, undeniable, irrefutable proof that I was not hallucinating (such as being under the influence of some environmental or chemical agent), or the victim of some kind of cruel yet convincing extraterrestrial prank or delusion or some sort. This might not be enough in itself to convince me but at least it would be a right step in the direction of meeting this standard of evidence. Neither do I have any supernatural/miraculous evidence from history itself. I have no first-century evidence from secular historians who were on the scene in ancient Palestine, following Jesus around, witnessing his miracles, interviewing people who supposedly saw these miracles, interviewing skeptics and critics who had either been won over as converts or tried explaining embarrassing details away. I know of no historical report or documentation in which a highly-educated, world-class, first-rank, widely-respected historian of the 1st-century Mediterranean who witnessed the crucifixion, dishonorable burial of Jesus, and the risen Jesus. I know of no such historian or group of them who saw Jesus themselves, confirmed that Jesus was dead, confirmed that he did not survive the burial, was not reburied elsewhere, or that the body was misplaced or stolen, who witnessed an empty tomb, witnessed angels and the women's interaction with angels, interviewed the women and angels, saw the risen Jesus and interviewed him, and trying to have Jesus help them to verify for themselves that they were not mistaken or deluded somehow, interviewing the disciples, asking them hard, critical questions to make sure that they were not mistaken or deluded, somehow, and being there to witness the ascending Jesus, the Holy Spirit alleging coming upon the disciples at Pentecost. This would be a step in the right direction towards providing supernatural/miraculous evidence from history.

But, this is not the evidence that we have. Instead of providing multiple attesting secular and Jewish sources from reputable historians on the scenes to witness these alleged miraculous events, Christians will offer the New Testament itself. They might appeal to its inerrancy as supernatural/miraculous evidence of its truth claims. This is the second reason I don't believe that the resurrection happened: I consider the resurrection narratives to be errant. I believe that the canonical synoptic gospels contradict the gospel of John when the synoptics have Mary Magdalene and her companions go the empty tomb, encounter angels, and return to the disciples, successfully delivering the message of the angels: that Jesus had risen from the dead. Yet in John, Mary Magdalene first encounters the tomb and without so much as entering it, runs and tells the disciple that the body has been taken and the women don't know where it is. Luke records that on the eve of the resurrection that Jesus appeared to eleven disciples but John says that only ten were present; unlike in Luke, doubting Thomas wasn't present in John. Matthew records the women arriving at the tomb, an earthquake happening, and angel descending and opening the stone for them, all after they arrive at the tomb. Other gospels (Mark and Luke) say that when the women arrive the stone had been removed already, and whatever women were present didn't encounter angels until after they had entered the tomb. I believe that Matthew and Mark tend to only present one angel as being at the tomb while Luke and John have more than one angel. Matthew and Mark, I believe, place the first appearance of Jesus to his disciples in Galilee while Luke and John have it in Jerusalem.

After rejecting the resurrection hypothesis for these two reasons, I will now discuss the next option: a deliberate lie. I don't think that this is necessarily impossible but I do grant that this is probably unlikely. I believe that this is not impossible, though. My reason for thinking so is that the New Testament was written in an honor-shame society. They didn't general have that big of a concern for precision writing nor were they absolutely obsessed with always being honest no matter what. In such a society, there was such thing as an honorable lie. I believe that it's certainly possible (yet very unlikely, historically speaking) that the resurrection might have been the result of an honorable lie. If the in-group’s collective honor was at stake or if they believed that it was more honorable to die for something they considered a lie, I can see the possibility that they might have died for a deliberate lie as long as they conceived the lie to be an honorable one. I regard this as unlikely because I don't see any reason why being martyred for a deliberate lie would be more honorable than confessing that their mission was based on deceit.

After rejecting the possibility of deliberately deception as being historically unlikely, I come to the possibility I regard as being the most likely: sincere delusion. Here is where I see Christian apologists having a major inconsistency in their apologetics. Apologists of yesteryear like McDowell, C.S. Lewis, and the apologists of today, like William Lane Craig, Gary Habermas, and Mike Licona, set about arguing against the historical probability of any kind of delusion or hallucination theory. But if they had confidence in this argument of McDowell's, one would wonder why they would be trying to raise up the possibility of delusion, only to knock it down again? The very fact that they waste ink on theories of delusion and hallucination only betrays whatever confidence they might have or had in this martyrdom argument of McDowell whether they realize it or not. Even McDowell doesn't seem to realize this as he assembles a rebuttal of the hallucination theory in his tome Evidence That Demands a Verdict and then argues for this martyrdom argument in his book He Walked Among Us. The problem with their rebuttals of the hallucination theory is that they are destroying the wrong target. Their rebuttals, which persist even to this day, have been invalidated not only by examples from history but also from the findings of cultural and psychological anthropology. These findings and insights have been applied to the New Testament and as a result, a field of New Testament studies has arisen in the past decades, New Testament sociological criticism, which the Context Group has been at the forefront of.

What this criticism has revealed is that there is a world of difference between the culture that produced the New Testament text and our culture. The ancient culture of the 1st century Mediterranean is what anthropologists call an honor-shame society while cultures such as American, Britain, and Australia are what anthropologists might call a pride-guilt society. In honor-shame societies there occur visions. These visions involve altered-states-of-consciousness and come in two types: group visions and individual visions. Two Context Group scholars, Bruce Malina and Richard Rohrbaugh have written two excellent books applying these anthropological insights to the gospels, their Social-Science Commentary on the Synoptic Gospels and their Social-Science Commentary on the Gospel of John. They note that visions involving these altered-states-of-consciousness happen frequently, can definitely involve groups of people at the same time, and are considered normal in both antiquity and modern honor-shame societies. Although a rigorous, historical theory of Christian origins, based on such visions, to my knowledge has yet to be fully worked out, such visions do, in my opinion, form the basis of a sincere and honest delusion among the earliest Christians.

I do believe, however, that Christian apologists like Craig, Habermas, Licona have successfully refuted hallucination theories in their works but I am convinced that these works have been outdated and I believe that they are to be shamed for not applying and carefully studying New Testament sociological criticism and incorporating it into their writings. Even if many apologists have written their works before sociological criticism had arisen as a discipline of New Testament studies, wouldn't they be endowed with the responsibility of carefully studying antiquity and modern day societies to ensure that any such visionary experiences do not occur at all? If I was a Christian apologist, I would be consulting with cultural anthropologists and try to be as careful as I could, trying to figure out if such visionary experiences, such as those involving altered-states-of-consciousness could and do occur. Even if such data was unknown back then, I don't think it would excuse apologists from conducting such anthropological studies decades ago to see if they could rule out such a possibility which has become since, well studied and well known in these past few decades among anthropologists.

In fact, I would submit that hallucinations are rare, highly individualistic occurrences here pride-guilt societies such as America, Britain, Australia, and elsewhere. Visions (and the resulting visionary experiences) are frequent, highly collectivistic occurrences in honor-shame societies and can involve both single people and groups of people at the same time. The difference between a hallucination and a vision, seen from a sociological perspective, becomes evident, in my perspective. Christian apologists would have a greater and more effective case against the possibility of delusion if Christianity had its origins here in America or another pride-guilt culture, where hallucinations are, indeed, rare, individualistic occurrences. But Christianity originated in the Mediterranean, in a 1st century honor-shame, collectivistic society where such visionary experiences are frequent and common. This, I submit, best explains the origins of Christianity.

I should have to add though, that I believe that all visionary experiences are naturally-caused and are not in need of any supernatural or miraculous explanation. I should also hasten to point out that I don't believe a full-fledged general theory of Christian origins has been fully worked out from the basics of sociological criticism of the New Testament, which I hope to work out in graduate school. But I do believe that delusion is the best explanation and the likeliest explanation of the facts that we have so far. My purpose in writing here, however, is not to propose such a detailed theory, but to answer the argument. To expose the illogical nature of the argument as well as conduct a brief analysis of the possible options is what I believe is necessary to answer this argument of Christian apologists.

13 comments:

Anonymous said...

I just don't believe such an analysis as you've given here can be refuted. I find it strange that most Christians don't even seriously consider these arguments.

Anonymous said...

Why would you grant that the earliest Christians believed in an empty tomb? The earliest Christian writings do not mention such a thing. Paul's letters talk about a Christ Jesus who came down from the highest levels of heaven, was crucified by the "rulers of the age" and then raised back up to sit at the right hand of God in glory. No earthly details are a part of Paul's story -- no Pontius Pilate, no Golgotha, no Joseph, no tomb. The first mention of any of these earthly details is in the Gospel of Mark, at least 30 years later. From interenal geographic anomolies in Mark's account either Mark was ignorant about the places in which his story was set or he was not trying to write a historical account. Either way the written record we have does not offer any support for the notion that the first generation of Christians believed that Jesus was a human being who had been cruicifed by other human beings and placed in a tomb. All the evidence we have is that this is a story that developed among the second, third or fourth generation of Christians and then was written by them back into the time of the legendary "pillars" Peter, James and John. There is no reason to believe, other than faith and piety, that Peter, James and John believed any such thing.

Why I Don't Believe said...

A few things that sprung to mind when reading your post were:

1. Christians, especially those of a Pente/Charismatic flavour, WANT to believe in miracles even though very few will say they have actually seen anything that could truly be a miracle. Sure, lots will say God gave them a car parking space or organised circumstances, etc. And yet, they all believe God performs miracles. I NEVER saw a single one in my time as a Pente and yet, I was convinced God was doing miracles all around me every day. How is that even possible? How could I be a beliver in God's ability to do miracles when I hadn't seen a single one. Yeah, I heard lots of stories ABOUT miracles, but I never saw a single one.

My point here is that even without evidence, MODERN CHRISTIANS are prepared to give God the 'benefit of the doubt'.

2. The Jehovah's Witnesses and their assertion that Jesus returned invisibly in 1914 (date?) is a prime MODERN exapmple of how people can believe something as a group, be faced with inescapable evidence to the contrary, and then continue to believe it AS A GROUP. Jesus made no such appearance in 1914 and thus the party line became that he returned INVISIBLY. To those of us on the outside, this is sheer foolishness, yet to them it was both plausible and, more than that, acceptable. Here we see a group of people who, when their messianic prophecy didn't come true, simply changed the sotry a bit to make it more believable to themselves and maintained their belief and adherance to the group. If this could happen in a modernist setting, why not in the 1st century where belief in messiahs and miracles were far more common? I have always wanted to ask Josh McDowell this one, even when I was a believer.

Ten Minas Ministries said...

I don't have time to get into a prolonged debate on this topic, so I will simply point you to a resource. In short, you all are mistaken that Christians have not addressed these arguments, including the idea of a group-wide delusion/hullucination. I would direct you to a relatively short and interesting book titled "Resurrected? An Atheist and Theist Dialogue" by Gary R. Habermas and Anthony G.N. Flew. Flew raises this argument and Habermas responds. The notion of a group wide delusion is simply untenable. Such group wide delusions do not contain the kind of detail we see here.

Finally, the Jehovah's Witnesses argument is not on point. This kind of objection also has been raised many times before. You can see this kind of "group think" in many cults. This is why the original argument talks about dying for something you "know" to be false. Jehovah's Witnesses do not claim to have personally seen Christ's return (nor did they get brutally executed for that belief). People believe things that are demonstrably wrong all the time. People even die for things they believe, even when those beliefs are wrong (again, look at cults). But with the resurrection we are not talking about some belief that these people never witnessed to begin with, but was ingrained into their consciousness by some brainwashing cult leader. Here we are talking about people dying for something they claim to have PERSONALLY WITNESSED. Either they did or they didn't. Clearly, at a minimum, you have to concede that the overwhelming probability is that they at least SINCERELY BELIEVED that they had seen the resurrected Christ. Then you are left with trying to explain away why they would all sincerely believe that if it was not true. This leaves you with group delusion as the only real explanation, but as I said previously, that simply doesn't hold up and I encourage you to read the Habermas/Flew book.

DagoodS said...

Ten Minas Ministries Here we are talking about people dying for something they claim to have PERSONALLY WITNESSED.

I wrote a fairly extensive piece on this “die for a lie.” Here

It is a simple question: Your best shot at “die for a lie” is Peter. How did he die? (sources, please) What was he accused of? (sources, please) If he recanted, would he still have been killed?

We do not have one item of evidence to answer any of these questions. And that is the best possible candidate—Peter. When we move to James the Just, or Paul, or James the Disciple, it only gets worse. After that, we must look to stories that came into being centuries later.

You only hope is one person—Peter. And, within this context; what is the chance of one person having a hallucination?

The reason “die for a lie” doesn’t work is that it assumes its own conclusion without any support. No facts to back it up.

Anonymous said...

Dear Reader- I wanted to comment on your comments. First, you said:

“I don't have time to get into a prolonged debate on this topic, so I will simply point you to a resource. In short, you all are mistaken that Christians have not addressed these arguments, including the idea of a group-wide delusion/hullucination. I would direct you to a relatively short and interesting book titled "Resurrected? An Atheist and Theist Dialogue" by Gary R. Habermas and Anthony G.N. Flew. Flew raises this argument and Habermas responds. The notion of a group wide delusion is simply untenable. Such group wide delusions do not contain the kind of detail we see here.”

I believe you are mistaken, not us. First of all, your response seems to ignore what I have written my blog-post. I was not defending any “hallucination” theory. In fact, I had written:

“I do believe, however, that Christian apologists like Craig, Habermas, Licona have successfully refuted hallucination theories in their works but I am convinced that these works have been outdated and I believe that they are to be shamed for not applying and carefully studying New Testament sociological criticism and incorporating it into their writings”

The above sentence whose portion I have highlighted in bold print seems to have escaped your attention somehow ( I bet through careless reading perhaps). I fully grant that they have successfully refuted hallucination-theories, particularly group-hallucination theories. I made a distinction between visions and hallucinations which has escaped your analysis. Secondly, I pointed out why I believe that their argument fails and that there is a difference between ‘hallucinations’ and ‘visions’ as far as their respective cultural origins go. Hallucinations originate in pride-guilt cultures such as ours while visions originate in honor-shame cultures such as ours. You have not even acknowledged this distinction in your comment. Third, while I have not read the book by Gary Habermas and Anthony Flew, I do not regard Flew as the final authority on the resurrection as far as atheism goes. I frankly expect Flew to be horribly ignorant about the nature of honor-shame societies in general and visions in particular. It would not surprise me in the least if Flew had no answers to Habermas’ argument. I haven’t read the book but I honestly do not expect it to be much improved from their earlier debate on the resurrection.

“Finally, the Jehovah's Witnesses argument is not on point. This kind of objection also has been raised many times before. You can see this kind of "group think" in many cults. This is why the original argument talks about dying for something you "know" to be false. Jehovah's Witnesses do not claim to have personally seen Christ's return (nor did they get brutally executed for that belief). People believe things that are demonstrably wrong all the time. People even die for things they believe, even when those beliefs are wrong (again, look at cults). But with the resurrection we are not talking about some belief that these people never witnessed to begin with, but was ingrained into their consciousness by some brainwashing cult leader. Here we are talking about people dying for something they claim to have PERSONALLY WITNESSED. Either they did or they didn't. Clearly, at a minimum, you have to concede that the overwhelming probability is that they at least SINCERELY BELIEVED that they had seen the resurrected Christ.”
Who claims to have been an eyewitness? What would you about parallels where it is claimed that there were/are eyewitnesses? Many hundreds of people claimed to be eyewitnesses of an appearance of the Virgin Mary at Fatima and elsewhere. You also have the eyewitness testimony of Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris that they saw the golden plates that Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon from, that they handled them with their hands, and that they saw Smith translate from them. I guess, then, I am supposed to believe, based on this supposed eyewitness affidavit that Smith really was given golden plates by God and that there really was a new gospel to be preached.

My point is that to claim that the disciples of Jesus as eyewitnesses are on extremely shaky grounds and that not every claim to be an eyewitness is automatically valid and sincere. Eyewitnesses can be mistaken, deluded, and dishonest. I believe that the “eyewitness” testimony of those who think they saw the golden tablets is bogus.

“Then you are left with trying to explain away why they would all sincerely believe that if it was not true. This leaves you with group delusion as the only real explanation, but as I said previously, that simply doesn't hold up and I encourage you to read the Habermas/Flew book.”

If you believe that McDowell’s martyrdom argument is valid why would you try and rebut the possibility of delusion on historical grounds? Your apologetics is inconsistent on this point. In fact I even wrote:

“Here is where I see Christian apologists having a major inconsistency in their apologetics. Apologists of yesteryear like McDowell, C.S. Lewis, and the apologists of today, like William Lane Craig, Gary Habermas, and Mike Licona, set about arguing against the historical probability of any kind of delusion or hallucination theory. But if they had confidence in this argument of McDowell's, one would wonder why they would be trying to raise up the possibility of delusion, only to knock it down again? The very fact that they waste ink on theories of delusion and hallucination only betrays whatever confidence they might have or had in this martyrdom argument of McDowell whether they realize it or not”

If you want me to read the book, I’ll make a deal with you. I’ll read the book if you will try and more carefully read my posts in the future.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Dave - it seems most likely that the resurrection stories in the gospels are fictional and that they are based on a mystery cult tradition of spiritual resurrection. The Jesus Mysteries, The Jesus Puzzle and other books go into compelling detail on this subject.

I think the key question a skeptic would have to ask is: how likely is it that a real human being went through the sacrificial slaughter and subsequent resurrection that is featured in so many primitive religions?

Which leads one to the conclusion that the entire story is nothing more or less than a fabrication. However, Xians can not see their own myths for what they are.

Anonymous said...

"They wouldn't die for something that they knew to be a lie so we can only conclude that they died for something that they knew to be true!"

The glaring falsity of this statement is the assertion 'if A "we can only conclude" B'.

It more true to argue that as no-one is likely to voluntarily die for something they knew to be a lie it can be assumed they died because they BELIEVED it to be true. However believing a thing to be true does not mean it IS true, as many millions of people have discovered to their cost throughout history.

Ten Minas Ministries said...

The cultural background of visions is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what you call it. You are left with the same conclusion. A number of people claim to be eyewitnesses to several specific events. Not just something simple like seeing someone, but specific events, conversations, statements, etc. None of your examples are on point. You keep oversimplifying the evidence. Its not just a bunch of people saying "I saw Jesus". Its people saying "I saw Jesus and He did this and said this, etc.". You have to explain how that could have happened. Yes, there are examples of group visions, hallucinations, whatever you want to call it. But they are typicallly very simple events, such as "I saw X".

Not only that, but even if you were to see group visions with some more specificity, you'd have to consider the possibility that it is all a fraud and there may have been collusion. Of course a whole bunch of people could have claimed to see the same thing if they got together and planned it out ahead of time. But that's what the original argument here addresses. The collusion argument doesn't work in the apostles' case because that would imply they knew what they were dying for was untrue.

So its the combination of the specificity and the martyrdom. Generally group visions aren't that specific. And even if they were, you'd have to consider the possibility that it is really a group lie, not a group vision. So you can cite all the examples of group visions you want, but unless you can show an example with enormous specificity as well as evidence of people being willing to die because of what they claim to have seen, you haven't even begun to address the Christian argument.

I also don't see how you can possibly ask why Christians would be refuting the possibility of delusion. Could it possibly be because non-believers are raising it as an argument against the resurrection? Or that Christians are anticipating this objection, just like a lawyer in court who anticipates what will be brought up on cross examination so he addresses it on direct to deny his opponent the chance? So if Christians don't respond, non-believers can claim "They have no response for me", but if they do respond non-believers could claim "Look how defensive they are getting, they must be really concerned about this point." There is absolutely no logic in that.

I don't have time to go into all the evidence for the martyrdom, but to claim that there is only evidence for Peter (as was claimed by dagoods) is blatantly false. The book of Acts alone records the stoning of Stephen (which, of course, I know you will probably reject for the mere reason that it is recorded in one of the books of the Bible, so it therefore must be false, despite the enormous amount of historical information we get from other "biased" historical documents). You also ignore the number of times Paul faced travails that could have led to his death (such as stoning), but just happened to come out of it alive. He could not have known he was going to survive ahead of time, yet afterwards he continued saying he saw the risen Christ. Surely he knew that his very life could be at stake.

And please try to avoid making personal attacks in the future such as the "careless reading" comment. I didn't overlook your comment. I didn't care about it. I could just as simply point out that your "careless reading" seems to have overlooked that I hyphenated "hallucination/vision", because it doesn't matter what the source of the information is unless you can explain the result. Whether the information came by way of hallucination or vision is irrelevant unless you are prepared to admit to psychic phenomenon and that people can somehow all be thinking the same thing at the same time with the same specificity without talking to each other about it. If you truly want to engage in debate, you need to be respectful of your opponent. If all you want to do is post your comments and have a bunch of "yes men" say how much they agree with you, that's fine, but you will quickly find that no one with an opposing view will be the least bit interested in speaking with you and you will never be able to know if what you believe is actually true.

DagoodS said...

Ten Minas Ministries: I don't have time to go into all the evidence for the martyrdom,…

How disappointing. The same response I get every single time I raise issue by every single Christian. They always seem to claim there is all this overwhelming evidence; yet simply don’t have the time to cite to it.

Ten Minas Ministries—I have looked for the evidence. I have searched far and wide. I will gladly review any source you provide to give me more information.

If you could honestly answer me this, I would appreciate it—if those who hold to the proposition of “die for a lie” can’t or won’t find the evidence to support their proposition, why is it incumbent upon me to believe it?

Looking at your two examples, briefly:

Stephen. Where, in Acts 6:8-8:1 does it indicate that Stephen ever said anything about seeing Jesus physically resurrected within the 40 days after his death?

Remember, the point of the argument is that the disciples believed it was an actual physical body and died for it. Matthew is arguing (If I understand correctly) that it possibly was a vision.

Worse, when pointing to Stephen, he DOES recount what even Christians say was a “vision” in Acts 7:55-56. Be that as it may, where does Stephen die for the claim that he saw a physically resurrected Jesus?

Paul. Same problem. Paul saw a light and heard a voice. Albeit in his Epistles, Paul claims on another occasion to have heard Jesus directly—one thing Paul never claims, nor is claimed about Paul is that he actually ever saw a physically resurrected Jesus within the 40 days after his death.

The point stays the same—you need a person who saw Jesus within that 40 days AND died for it. Neither Stephen nor Paul qualifies.

I fear you will not come up with the sources of all this information regarding those who died for a lie. (I hope you read my blog entry that explained the difference between “martyrdom” and “die for a lie.”

Anonymous said...

Dear Reader,

I want to respond to your rather lengthy comment. I will add my responses interspaced with yours.

"The cultural background of visions is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what you call it. You are left with the same conclusion."

I beg to differ. It is highly relevant. If apologists are going to critique alternatives to the resurrection, they have to do their homework. They cannot simply critique the notion of "collective hallucinations" and then pretend that naturalistic alternatives are refuted. The difference between honor-shame societies is highly relevant here because of the various background factors. I don't see how we are left with the same conclusion.

"A number of people claim to be eyewitnesses to several specific events. Not just something simple like seeing someone, but specific events, conversations, statements, etc."

I am not sure who this comment is directed at, but I will bite and assume it's meant for me. The fact of the matter is that have very little claims of eyewitness testimony. Please produce the claims here. I regard a number of specific events such as conversations to be apologetic fictions created by the later church or individual gospel authors.

"None of your examples are on point. You keep oversimplifying the evidence. Its not just a bunch of people saying "I saw Jesus". Its people saying "I saw Jesus and He did this and said this, etc.". You have to explain how that could have happened. Yes, there are examples of group visions, hallucinations, whatever you want to call it. But they are typicallly very simple events, such as "I saw X"."

How am I oversimplifying the evidence? My explanation, assuming that the gospels are biographies with historical interest is that these events are apologetic creations. I tend to lean towards several of the episodes in the gospels as being antidocetic narratives. I could well be wrong on this point but this is my preferred interpretation so far.

"Not only that, but even if you were to see group visions with some more specificity, you'd have to consider the possibility that it is all a fraud and there may have been collusion. Of course a whole bunch of people could have claimed to see the same thing if they got together and planned it out ahead of time. But that's what the original argument here addresses. The collusion argument doesn't work in the apostles' case because that would imply they knew what they were dying for was untrue."

I am not arguing collusion here. Some may and it's up to them to defend their conclusion.

"So its the combination of the specificity and the martyrdom. Generally group visions aren't that specific. And even if they were, you'd have to consider the possibility that it is really a group lie, not a group vision. So you can cite all the examples of group visions you want, but unless you can show an example with enormous specificity as well as evidence of people being willing to die because of what they claim to have seen, you haven't even begun to address the Christian argument."

How do you personally know that group visions aren't that specific? What sociological or historical evidence do you have that they are/were?

"I also don't see how you can possibly ask why Christians would be refuting the possibility of delusion. Could it possibly be because non-believers are raising it as an argument against the resurrection? Or that Christians are anticipating this objection, just like a lawyer in court who anticipates what will be brought up on cross examination so he addresses it on direct to deny his opponent the chance? So if Christians don't respond, non-believers can claim "They have no response for me", but if they do respond non-believers could claim "Look how defensive they are getting, they must be really concerned about this point." There is absolutely no logic in that."

I believe that you have missed my point here. I ask this because the martyrdom argument assumes what it's trying to prove. I ask why Christians refute the possibility of delusion given that their martyrdom argument rules it out epistemologically rather than trying to rebut it on historical grounds. Christians are free to anticipate any objections that they like to. If Christians don't respond, they probably haven't done their homework. If they do respond, great. As long as they respond calmly and civilly, good. The conversation then continues. It's only when they get self-righteous, hysterical, or insulting that I conclude that they're getting defensive.

"I don't have time to go into all the evidence for the martyrdom, but to claim that there is only evidence for Peter (as was claimed by dagoods) is blatantly false. The book of Acts alone records the stoning of Stephen (which, of course, I know you will probably reject for the mere reason that it is recorded in one of the books of the Bible, so it therefore must be false, despite the enormous amount of historical information we get from other "biased" historical documents)."

I will let Dagood respond as he chooses. However, I think it's unfair that you would add the "bias comment". You don't know that for sure. The reason why some Christians bring up this is because they have a persecution complex and they fear that they are so hated that if the Bible is used as a source, they will simply be scoffed at. I don't do this. I believe that the Bible contains some historical kernels of fact mixed with legend, myth, and fiction. If I feel that you are using the Bible, I will ask you to support the reliability of a particular part if I feel it's open to question or doubt. If you don't have time to go into all the evidence for martyrdom, then perhaps you might simply wish to avoid commenting in the future. If someone is going to make some statements that are in need of backing up, we expect you to back them up if you make them. It's that simple.

"You also ignore the number of times Paul faced travails that could have led to his death (such as stoning), but just happened to come out of it alive. He could not have known he was going to survive ahead of time, yet afterwards he continued saying he saw the risen Christ. Surely he knew that his very life could be at stake."

Who is ignoring this? Not everyone believes that Paul's journeys here are fact nor all of his "travails". He probably didn't know he was going to survive ahead of time yet might've simply attributed his survival to Christ rather than realize that he was simply fortunate. There are many times where people escape death who are simply fortunate. I am not sure what your argument proves here.

"And please try to avoid making personal attacks in the future such as the "careless reading" comment."

My, my, sensitive much? My comments were not meant as a personal attack. I was simply pointing out what I considered a matter of fact. If you feel personally attacked, then by all means, either consider growing some thicker skin or move on and only comment on blogs were you feel safer. I am not sure why you feel attacked but I am not going to edit my comments just to accommodate people who may well just be hypersensitive.

"I didn't overlook your comment. I didn't care about it. I could just as simply point out that your "careless reading" seems to have overlooked that I hyphenated "hallucination/vision", because it doesn't matter what the source of the information is unless you can explain the result."

If you feel that I carelessly read your statement, I wouldn't whine about some personal attack, I would challenge you to back up your statement. You write that you didn't care about my comment- well, why even post a comment in the first place then? You see, I have grown some thicker skin since the time that I have joined. I simply disagree with you regarding the source of information.

"Whether the information came by way of hallucination or vision is irrelevant unless you are prepared to admit to psychic phenomenon and that people can somehow all be thinking the same thing at the same time with the same specificity without talking to each other about it"

First of all, I doubt you really know much about the cultural background of visions to be making such a comment. Secondly, you're assuming that I simply accept the "specificity" as factual. I don't.

" If you truly want to engage in debate, you need to be respectful of your opponent. If all you want to do is post your comments and have a bunch of "yes men" say how much they agree with you, that's fine, but you will quickly find that no one with an opposing view will be the least bit interested in speaking with you and you will never be able to know if what you believe is actually true."

You're saying I need to be respectful? There are some comments that you left that don't seem to be respectful. You say "You keep oversimplifying the evidence" and "You also ignore..." If I said these about you, you'd whine about pout about personal attacks and the lack of respect. You're implicitly accusing me of ignorance and oversimplification and then you have the gall to lecture me about the need to be respectful to my opponents? I'll make you a deal here; if you think I need to be more respectful pal, why don't you show me how by setting a better example yourself?

Ten Minas Ministries said...

Matthew,

I think you need to examine the difference between attacking someone's argument and attacking someone personally. My comments about "oversimplification" etc. were directly relevant to your argument, not you. Your comment about "careless reading" was directed at me. If you cannot appreciate that very simple difference, then please do not ask to engage in "civil" debate in the future, because until you understand that distinction, you will not be capable of engaging in civil debate.

As for the rest of your comments toward me, I am not going to respond because there would be no point.

As to the merits, I am sorry if my schedule does not permit me to respond to everyone's satisfaction. But to sit back and claim "victory" as a result is clearly illogical. And I'd advise everyone to be careful, because what is good for the goose is good for the gander, and the next time an atheist fails to respond or doesn't have the time, the theist could just as easily claim victory. But that would be no more correct.

I feel that I have responded and you have yet to address my points. You have yet to cite any examples of specific visions. You say they may be possible, but that is not evidence. You are offering up this "explanation", so the burden to prove that it is reasonable is on you.

This debate has boiled down to what I expected it to. IF the Bible accounts are accurate, vision does not explain them (perhaps when I have time I will make a post on my blog addressing dagoods points because he does raise some issues worthy of discussion). In order for your vision theory to be viable, you must also claim unreliability of the Biblical texts. As I said, that is another debate entirely. I would also point out that if the Biblical texts are not reliable, that would raise enough issues of its own for Christianity, so your vision argument, because it depends first on the texts being unreliable, really does not add much to the discussion.

I thank John for his civil and polite debates in the past. However, I will not be posting here again in the foreseeable future. Unfortunately, I see a disturbing tendency in the recent posts on this board (unlike my past experience with John himself) to simply be looking for a bunch of "yes men" to agree with the poster rather than showing any genuine interest in serious debate. If someone dares to post a contrary opinion, the "regulars" seem to go on personal attack mode. If someone feels like following my comment up with a comment of your own claiming to have "scared" me away, or something to that effect, that is certainly your prerogative. But you will only be proving my point even more. You will be bolstering your own confidence (and that of yoru readers) based upon a conclusion you have drawn with no logical basis whatsoever.

As a general rule, I believe dagoods may be an exeption to this rule, as he does seem to genuinely want to address the merits (even if I disagreed with his comment which implies that simply because I have other time obligations this implies some weakness of argument on my part).

If anyone actually is interested in civil debate, you know where to find me. There is a link to the Ten Minas site to the right. You can access the blog through the site.

Ken Coughlan

Anonymous said...

Ken writes:

"I think you need to examine the difference between attacking someone's argument and attacking someone personally. My comments about "oversimplification" etc. were directly relevant to your argument, not you. Your comment about "careless reading" was directed at me."

It didn't look that way to me. Perhaps you seriously believe that you were attacking my arguments and not me but I got the feeling that you were attacking me. What is the difference between you saying to me "You keep oversimplifiying" and me saying "I’ll read the book if you will try and more carefully read my posts in the future."

If you were attacking my argument, you would say "Your argument/comments oversimplify my points". But you said "You", not "Your argument" or "Your response", and so I feel that you were attacking me and it seems to me that you're whining that I am attacking you. I am sure you're aware of that old saying about people who live in glass houses...

"If you cannot appreciate that very simple difference, then please do not ask to engage in "civil" debate in the future, because until you understand that distinction, you will not be capable of engaging in civil debate."

If you're going to scream "Persecution!" everytime someone doesn't tip-toe around eggshells to desperately avoid any possibility of remotely offending you, perhaps you might you wish to think about a little counseling- just a concerned suggestion here. I am not trying to insult you or offend you. Also- please do not give me unsolicited advice in the future!

"As for the rest of your comments toward me, I am not going to respond because there would be no point."

Suit yourself.

"As to the merits, I am sorry if my schedule does not permit me to respond to everyone's satisfaction. But to sit back and claim "victory" as a result is clearly illogical."

Where have I claimed victory? All I ask is that if you plan on engaging in discussion, be prepared to dive in the water with both feet. I expect a great deal of discussion. If you don't have the time for that, then perhaps you'd like to consider postponing comments until some time frees up for you. Again, I am not trying to offend you with any unsolicited advice but I just want to express a possible option that you might want to explore here.

"And I'd advise everyone to be careful, because what is good for the goose is good for the gander, and the next time an atheist fails to respond or doesn't have the time, the theist could just as easily claim victory. But that would be no more correct."

I am not in the habit of claiming victory when someone doesn't answer. If someone doesn't answer what I write, I simply move on. If someone responds and I feel like responded to comments, I respond.

"I feel that I have responded and you have yet to address my points. You have yet to cite any examples of specific visions. You say they may be possible, but that is not evidence. You are offering up this "explanation", so the burden to prove that it is reasonable is on you."

Woa, wait a minute. I believe that I have responded to your points, perhaps not in the detailed sense that you would like to. But I don't believe it's my burden to provide examples of specific visions. I'd like to see strong historical evidence that the resurrection narratives are factual and the specific details are factually accurate. I am convinced that many of the resurrecion stories are apologetic stories designed by the gospel authors to rebut heresies so far. The resurrection is a supernatural claim requiring supernatural forms of evidence- where is your supernatural evidence that the resurrection happened?

Matthew