A Good God Doesn't Exist

My wife and I visited Reno, Nevada, recently, along with Donner Memorial State Park, which marks the campsite of many members of the Donner Party. The Donner Party got stranded one winter in the mountains due to heavy snowfall. This is a picture of the rock that was used as a western wall and fireplace for the Murphy Cabin. It was really interesting standing there where many people died, and where some people ate the flesh of others just to stay alive. What a horrific winter it must have been.

It's also interesting to read Patrick Breen's diary. Here's an entry from it on December 31, 1846: "Last of the year. May we, with God's help, spend the coming year better than the past, which we purpose to do if Almighty God will deliver us from our present dreadful situation, which is our prayer if the will of God sees it fitting for us. Amen." Another entry January 19, 1847: "Clear & pleasant. Thawing a little in the sun. Wind S.W. Peggy & Edward sick last night by eating some meat that Dolan threw his tobacco on; pretty well to day (praise God for his blessings)."

Of the 81 people trapped in the mountains, 36 died and 45 survived. Since most of these people were Christians I wonder why God didn't answer their prayers, or answered so very little of what they needed. I cannot envision a good mother not doing so, can you?

22 comments:

Bill said...

John, I'm really quite surprised at your question. Coming from a church of Christ background you should know that God didn't answer their prayers because they of the wrong denomination ; )

openlyatheist said...

God does not answer the prayers of delicious people.

Anonymous said...

I think it was test of their faith. The ones that died got to heaven, the ones that lived, god provided for by having the others die, and their faith in God was strengthened because God provided. It was a win win situation for everyone.

Do I sound like anyone you know?

Rich said...

So by Joseph's logic we should be able to find the correct denomination by seeing who has a history of their prayers being answered? ;)

Why is it that God can only be good if nothing bad ever happens? (I know that you still expect some bad to exist, but only minor things)

Bill said...

Though, Rich, you must admit that what happened to the Donner party was not just "bad" it was the stuff of horror movies. They had reached an ultimate human low. Surely that was enough to warrant God's intervention? (If only we could determine what denomination they were? Then we could discover why God rejected them. Perhaps they were only casual church goers? Or Baptist?)

But wait! This just in: Wikipedia states, "The road created by the Donner Party into the Salt Lake Valley via Emigration Canyon was used the following year by the vanguard company of Mormon pioneers. The section from Fort Bridger to the valley became part of the Mormon Trail and remained the main route to Salt Lake City into the 1860s." Ah-ha! Now we know the reason for God allowing the Donner party to chow down on each other. God was paving the way for the advent of the true religion of Mormonism!! It's simply providential.

Anonymous said...

Jospeh said...God was paving the way for the advent of the true religion of Mormonism!!

Wait till Mormons get a hold of this argument! ;-)

Rich said...

"They had reached an ultimate human low. Surely that was enough to warrant God's intervention?"

Why? It's not that I don't believe God intervenes, it's just how do we say what warrants Gods intervention and what doesn't? I can't seem to find a formula that works. And yes I do agree this is horror story stuff.

Bill said...

I don't know about a formula, but it seems to me that when life gets so desperate we can't handle it anymore on our own, that would be a pretty good reason for God to intervene--especially when his creation is crying out to him. That's been my biggest stumbling block recently (leading to a steep decline in my faith): God is apparently failing or refusing to intervene to stem the tide of evil in his world. Clearly it is out of control--outside of our ability to detect and deter.

One footnote on the Donner Party. In further research I found this explanation of why the Donner Party wanted to go to California: "In addition to any other motivation, the Breens and Murphys may have gone for religious reasons, the Breens wanting to live in a Roman Catholic area and the Murphys wanting to rejoin the Mormons, who were reportedly going to California." (http://www.utahcrossroads.org/
DonnerParty/FAQ.htm#effect)
So there you have it. From an evangelical perspective, God would not want to answer the prayers of either Roman Catholics or Mormons. My, that was an easy open and shut case!

Rich said...

So if God only answers prayers of evangelicals, then its up to you to ebb the flow of evil into the world. Maybe your not doing enough, praying enough, having enough faith, your missing something that is allowing evil to overrun us all. Now we know who to blame, it isn't God after all, it's the evangelicals.

Michael Ejercito said...

Why should God have fed those people?

Anonymous said...

Jospeh I'm interested in your story. Email me.

akakiwibear said...

Among the flippant and disrespectful treatment of the real suffering of these people there is a question to be answered, that posed by Joseph – why does God fail to intervene in a creation crying out to Him? BUT HE HAS.

Through the revelations of God’s word we have had the knowledge of how to live placed at our disposal. The creation that is crying out has chosen to follow another path – free will at work – and we have been told what the consequences will be ... that part certainly seems to be right!

The pray that should be prayed is not that God “fix” the world that we have stuffed up because we ignored the instructions or failed to read the book. The pray that should be prayed is for the personal strength to bring about change in our own environment and for the numbers of those trying to do so to increase – there may be hope yet!

It is rather typical of the egocentric attitude so prevalent in today’s society to sit on our butts and expect God to clean up the mess we made while not being prepared to do our bit. Our society shirks personal responsibility. It suits us to blame someone else, like God, or better still why not deflect attention from our own passive roles by trying to convince others that it is proof God does not exist.

I am normally loath to quote from scriptures for fear that the literalists descend on me, but I do think the following from Isaiah 1 contains a lesson we can all benefit from.
15 When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even if you offer many prayers,
I will not listen.
Your hands are full of blood;
16 wash and make yourselves clean.
Take your evil deeds
out of my sight!
Stop doing wrong,
17 learn to do right!
Seek justice,
encourage the oppressed.
Defend the cause of the fatherless,
plead the case of the widow.

The teaching is repeated in many forms in the NT too. Prayer is not akin to Harry Potter’s magic wand – pity though … but then the movie Bruce the Almighty humorously showed the folly of that thinking.

Anonymous said...

hi akakiwibear,
as the donner party found out, god is a euphemism for luck. They ran out of luck. They suffered misfortune. thier prayers were not answered because they were in effect, wishing for better luck.

I'm sure they got their helping of the 'the dark night of the soul'.

akakiwibear said...

Lee, interesting view, but it avoids my point which is that there is no absolute teaching that all prayer would be answered. It is convenient for atheists to point to unanswered prayer as evidence that God does not exist, but it is reasoning based on a false premise.

Your reply also avoids my point that we live in a world of consequences. God is not a magic trick, works every time, to save us from the consequences of our actions. If that were the case, why not go skydiving without a parachute - guess it's no fun blaming God for not providing one on the way down.

zilch said...

akakiwibear- your point (and Isaiah's) seems to be that we need to take personal responsibility for ourselves and our world, and that we shouldn't expect God to fix our messes. I'll agree with that wholeheartedly. The only difference is that I don't believe there's any God to clean up our messes anyway.

And I'll agree that, supposing there is no guarantee that God will answer any given prayer, unanswered prayers are not proof that there is no God to answer them. However, the fact that prayers seem to be answered indistinguishably from chance leaves us with an "Answered Prayers of the Gaps" argument: prayers are answered invisibly. And as was pointed out long ago by some Greek, the survivors of the shipwreck whose prayers were answered get to tell their tale: the drowned sailors whose prayers were not answered are silent.

Shygetz said...

"God is not a magic trick, works every time, to save us from the consequences of our actions."

Nope, magic tricks do things, even if only illusory things. Magic tricks can be seen, observed, and measured.

God is not in the same class as magic tricks. God is wishing plus guilt.

"It's not that I don't believe God intervenes, it's just how do we say what warrants Gods intervention and what doesn't?"

Well, according to most Christian theology, we have a sense of Absolute Morals. And our Absolute Moral sense comes from God. Therefore, we should be able to judge God based on the Absolute Moral sense that He has given us.

Based solely on the Absolute Moral criteria that he provided us, leaving the Donner party to largely die in a horrid and gruesome fashion is an unconscionable act.

akakiwibear said...

zilch "prayers seem to be answered indistinguishably from chance".

Not so see the discussion with techskeptic on my blog

http://akakiwibear.blogspot.com/

under the post "OK, I rose to the bait"

My comment there also refutes this as a "God of the gaps" argument in that case - but in short where causality can demonstrated the "God of the gaps" argument is inappropriate.

zilch said...

akawikbear- I read your post and dialogue with techskeptic, and I have to say I agree with him, not you. There is no solid statistical evidence (the only kind of evidence that means anything, given spontaneous remissions) for the medical benefits of prayer, when the patients don't know they are being prayed for. The studies that have been done show results equal to chance.

Rich said...

"Well, according to most Christian theology, we have a sense of Absolute Morals. And our Absolute Moral sense comes from God."

Agreed

"Therefore, we should be able to judge God based on the Absolute Moral sense that He has given us."

According to Christian theology we are not even suppose to judge each other. Where does Christian theology teach us that we are to then judge God based on the morals he gave us?

Zilch said:There is no solid statistical evidence (the only kind of evidence that means anything, given spontaneous remissions) for the medical benefits of prayer, when the patients don't know they are being prayed for.

Yes there isn't solid statistical evidence, but isn't healing based on the faith of the person being healed? If someone doesn't know they are being prayed for then they can't very well use their faith. I don't remember the study very well but it seems that those who knew they were being prayed for did better.

Shygetz said...

Yes there isn't solid statistical evidence, but isn't healing based on the faith of the person being healed? If someone doesn't know they are being prayed for then they can't very well use their faith. I don't remember the study very well but it seems that those who knew they were being prayed for did better.

Finally, an honest Christian! Yes, all benefit derived comes solely from a psychosomatic effect. God has no detectable role in it whatsoever; if the person doesn't THINK he/she is being prayed for, there is no effect. A person can even THINK they ARE being prayed for, and get the same benefit. Total placebo effect.

Rich said...

While I agreed with the no data portion, I don't agree with you're conclusion.

akakiwibear said...

Zilch you talk of the statistics favouring random healing rather than a causal linkage. If you are following the discussion with techskeptic on my blog you will see that probability does not come near explaining the instantaneous healings (i.e. at the same time as the prayer) for conditions that are not know to reverse.

You mention a study that proves your point. The most quoted one is of 1800 sick people, some of whom were prayed for and some not and then sought to establish a statistical conclusion that prayer did not work has the recovery rates were the same for both groups. Some of the much flaunted atheist scepticism should be applied – remember the studies that proved there was no link between smoking and cancer.

Clearly miracles are not common place so to establish an event with maybe a 1:1,000,000 probability requires a sample a lot larger than 1,800 – from the point of view of statistics the study is fundamentally flawed.

Miracles in the way the Catholic Church accepts them as the basis for canonisation have to be exceptionally rare (like being struck by a meteorite while singing the national anthem) if they are to qualify as having no other rational explanation.

Second, so not only why would you expect a different answer given the shaky statistical baisis, but even more questionable is why resort to science in the first place? Science is able to confirm that certain things are testable and repeatable, that is, empirically verifiable in the present physical environment. If you have a preconception that there is no metaphysical realm then you would resort to science, but if a metaphysical realm exists it is the wrong tool - we don't know the laws that govern a metaphysical realm

Third – again - prayer is not a magic wand, point and POW, laws of nature tumble yet again. The real question should be "Are there grounds to believe an interaction between the physical world and the metaphysical realm?". The evidence would have to be based on scrutinised first hand accounts - would it not?