"I'm Praying for You."
"I'm praying for you." I get this response from Christians quite a bit. I don't suppose they would say this if they read the chapter in my book on prayer. But here is my response:
Go ahead. Thank you. But remember, don't just count the hits when a prayer request is answered, or discount the misses when a request is not granted. Make it a testable prayer. Pray specifically such that we will both know if your prayer request is answered. Don't offer a nebulous prayer which reveals you truly do not believe, like "help him," or "convict him," or "turn his life around before he dies." None of those prayers can be known to have been granted before we both die, since you might die before me. Be specific. If you want me to return to the faith then give a date when this is supposed to happen. This is not the same as demanding God to do something on your timetable at all, no more than it is when you ask for it not to rain on a given day.
Cheers,
John
28 comments:
John,
Great web site.
My prayer for you is this:
"God please draw John by your sovereign Grace in your own time and own way."
John it is obvious this hasn't happened yet.
Jamie, when should we expect your request to be granted? Should we expect this before I die?
When someone says they will pray for me I respond that I will sacrifice a chicken for them.
You know, people who say that they are praying for me, actually pisses me off. In all my years, 50+ as a christian, I remember the overwhelming majority of times that this phrase was used condescendingly. It was my experience that the offer to pray for you was a figure of speech, kind of like, "how are you doing," something that was said in conversation that you really didn't mean.
If you really thought that something was going to come of your prayer, why would you inform the other person to begin with?
For a while now, I've viewed prayer as a way that theists can feel like they're doing good without actually doing anything. I know that when the proverbial fecal matter hit the oscillating blades for my family, hearing the phrase "I'll pray for you" just made me want to hit the person. The help we needed was in the here and now, and the people that helped us were almost exclusively non-theists. One christian actually stepped up to help, but he probably doesn't count (as far as christians are concerned) since he is extremely liberal in his beliefs, but I digress...
Also take for example P-Momma's plight with her sun-sensitivity. Her blog community (mostly atheists) banded together (organized by an atheist) to help her out, yet when she posted about how thankful she was, a theist came out and said how grateful they were that their prayer was answered. WTF!? Yeah, it couldn't be the fact that a bunch of people helped out with their time and money... it was definitely the fact that you were praying that did it... give me a freaking break!
John,
Maybe or maybe not, that is up to God?
placebo,
I like grilled chicken.
"Maybe or maybe not, that is up to God?"
Translation: I don't really believe in prayer; but this will score me some brownie points with my fellow churchgoers.
Good grief; the original prayer could be summed up as "Do whatever you want, god."
My prayer has always been, from the first time I read this site, that God would show Himself to you in a way you can accept. After reading here for a year now, I wonder if you would accept anything He did to show Himself....even if He stood in front of you it wouldn't be enough, it seems, as you wouldn't trust your own eyes unless He stayed by your side 24/7 or could be tested in a laboratory.
jennifer
If prayer cannot save one of your Gods' own chosen people(6 million Jews), how can anyone expect your god to help one of his unchosen people?
Any answers to this question?
Maybe they didn't reconize they where being helped by your god as the cyanide gas was being turned on..huh?
Seems to be a big problem with mass genocide these days.
Steve,
It seems you enjoy riddles. Your question to Jennifer reminds me of a riddle that was shared with me.
At noon, a train leaves new york for toronto while another train leaves toronto for new york.It takes one train 8 hours and the other train 22 hours to make the trip. If both maintain constant speeds and travel along parallel tracks, at what time do they pass each other?
Anyways, let's say someone answers your question with exactly what you were looking for. What would that do for you?
Jennifer: If your god is omnipotent, then there is no reason he could not think of a way to reveal himself to John or any unbeliever in a way that unbeliever would consider irrefutably proven. According to your Bible, the whole "road to Damascus" event was sufficient to convert Saul of Tarsus, and he was not merely an unbeliever but an active persecutor of believers. If it worked for Saul why wouldn't it work for us? An a strong atheist I've often stated that I'd be delighted to accept evidence similar to what Saul is reported to have had. That evidence has not been forthcoming in spite of this.
Your response to John ("even if God stood in front of you 24/7 you wouldn't believe, blah blah") is not merely foolish — I have sufficient evidence of the existence of many things that are not in my constant presence, such as George W. Bush — but quite literally a concession on your part that your God does not and cannot exist, since you state outright that no proof of his existence would be adequate to change the mind of an unbeliever. What's the difference between something for which no convincing evidence can be presented, and something which does not exist at all?
Anyway, for everyone else: My usual reply to "God bless you" or "I'll pray for you," if I'm in a playful mood, is "May a pink unicorn give you lots of candy."
pvblivs,
Thanks for the comment.
But you have gotten it wrong.
You obviously don't understand prayer or God....
I pray in Jesus name in faith.
Meaning I trust God regardless of the outcome.
This type of prayer is all over the Bible.
Sometimes God answers but never against His will.
I trust God regardless.
Paul prayed for the thorn in the flesh to go away and God said NO.
But other times he prayed and God said yes.
To me God is not Santa but Sovereign and I submit to that.
I hope you guys don't turn out like
George Bernard Shaw who said this before he died and I quote, “The science to which I pinned my faith is bankrupt. Its counsels, which should have established the millennium, led instead directly to the suicide of Europe. I believed them once. In their name I helped to destroy the faith of millions of worshippers in the temples of a thousand creeds. And now they look at me and witness the great tragedy of an atheist who has lost his faith.”
I don't mean that in an arrogant way and John thanks for letting me comment on this site.
Hope to read your book some day.
I would love an autographed copy.
God bless.
Jamie, thanks, but if your prayer request is granted then I'll take that book off the market!
Visit and comment anytime. When you get my book come back and tell me what you think of the chapter on prayer. I'll sign it if you want.
Cheers.
"Jamie, thanks, but if your prayer request is granted then I'll take that book off the market!"
Dude that is funny.
Thanks John
Steve,
I didn't say I was praying for God to save John from anything, only that because of John's repetitive comments suggesting he is open and desirous of an encounter with God that he cannot ignore or explain away, I have been praying for that to happen.
Martin,
but quite literally a concession on your part that your God does not and cannot exist, since you state outright that no proof of his existence would be adequate to change the mind of an unbeliever.
Again, I didn't say anything about others thinking the same things John says he thinks. He has said that if God showed up once a year he might believe. This is what I doubt given that some people are simply going to explain it away.
You said you would be open to an experience like that of Saul. Would you really think the experience was from God or would you chalk it up to some psychosis? I only say this because Saul's life was changed, but he could have rejected the experience as a migraine or a bad reaction to something he ate. Maybe sand got in his eyes and caused an infection which caused some sort of scabs to form.
Have you read John's book? He had a pretty convincing experience but has dismissed it as odds. I can go with that to some degree.
There is a documentary called, The Nazi Officer's Wife which chronicles the life of a Jewish woman who, through many amazing connections at just the right time, ended up marrying a Nazi officer, having a child with him and living a secret life during the war. I don't remember her ever mentioning God. Of course, that doesn't prove anything either way...whether God ordered the chain of events or the cards fell, but it is what it is.
In John's case, the man who picked up he and his friend was a Christian and fulfilled the prayer of John and more. Odds?
You said you would be open to an experience like that of Saul. Would you really think the experience was from God or would you chalk it up to some psychosis? I only say this because Saul's life was changed, but he could have rejected the experience as a migraine or a bad reaction to something he ate.
That's a valid question, and I can only say I would have to have the experience and evaluate it before I could make that decision, and so far no god has seen fit to present me with the experience. In a general sense I could say that if I had an experience that seemed really really real but was so bizarre as to be possibly hallucinatory, then I would do everything I could to confirm the experience and rule out any form of mental illness (such as seeing if the experience ever repeated, seeing if its occurrence could be verified by independent means, having myself tested for possible chemical imbalances or other brain damage). If only to have the peace of mind that I was indeed sane.
But in the end it all boils down to the same thing: if God is omnipotent and omniscient (two attributes that cancel each other out, but we'll leave that for now), he should be able to think of a way to convince me of his existence. I mean, my dogs don't have much of a hard time convincing me they exist, why should an all-powerful deity?
Basically, putting the onus on the unbeliever and repeatedly asking things like "Yes, but would you just think you were crazy?" is just another way believers try to avoid meeting their burden of proof. Really, I can't evaluate how persuasive a piece of evidence is for something until it's there to examine.
In John's case, the man who picked up he and his friend was a Christian and fulfilled the prayer of John and more. Odds?
I'm not sure what you're trying to illustrate with the whole passage here, but I guess I could say that life is full of odd little occurrences and chance encounters, and the reason those tend to stand out to us is we remember them because of their unusual qualities. How many times have we been thinking about a friend when at that moment the phone rings and it's that person? And you say, "How funny, I was just thinking about you!" The event seems special in our minds because we never remember all the other times we happened to be thinking about a friend and they didn't call right then.
jennifer wrote, "I wonder if you would accept anything He did to show Himself....even if He stood in front of you it wouldn't be enough, it seems, as you wouldn't trust your own eyes unless He stayed by your side 24/7 or could be tested in a laboratory."
I'm just wondering what evidence he/she/it revealed to show you enough evidence to make have such an emotional appeal for your beliefs?
If I was that so sure that a god solely singled me out of all of the people on this planet, bypassing all other continents and went out of his/her/it's way to show you (singularly) that the Bible god does exists, I wouldn't be wasting my precious time left on this planet responding on other peoples blogs...No I would be out simging the praises of this event to other countries, not here in the the already established Christian Nation...No..NO but to foreign countries that have never heard of your god and be ready to supply your sufficient evidence.
Go unto the world and submit your evidence to substantiate your claim. It would be the least you could do.
God not being a respector of persons, yet he chose you to reveal himself to you, now please share to us what evidence was sufficient for you to believe in the Bible god?
To scott, I do not enjoy riddles, so N/A I much prefer truth, got any you can share?
Steven,
You cannot be shown what you refuse to believe. Let me ask you again, if someone was able to answer every single question you have, what would that do for you?
Scott- I can't answer every single question you have, but I can answer this one:
At noon, a train leaves new york for toronto while another train leaves toronto for new york.It takes one train 8 hours and the other train 22 hours to make the trip. If both maintain constant speeds and travel along parallel tracks, at what time do they pass each other?
Now, if the slow train took 24 hours, I can do it in my head: they pass each other at 6:00 PM. But given your conditions, and pencil and paper, they pass at 5:52 PM.
Steven,
God did not single me out. I meet people ALL THE TIME who have had similar experiences and we are all led to love our neighbor as ourselves wherever we are, whether that is in our house, bed ridden, or in community.
As for the rest, if I thought you were sincere in your question I would take the time to answer but I hear mocking in your tone.
I have yet to see any claim of supernatural causation that resulted from anything but lack of understanding of the natural world, willful ignorance, overactive imagination, superstition, coincidence, or one of mankind's myriad perceptual or sensory flaws like vivid dreams, or visual, auditory or other hallucinations. When people's comprehension of the world they inhabit is quite poor and what they know of the human perceptual, sensory and cognitive defects are worse yet, their supernaturalism, including their god, can be safely attributed to ignorance.
Personally, I know that I cannot be convinced that anything supernatural exists. If I was faced with an unfamiliar phenomenon, instead of ascribing it to something supernatural, I would assume it was a product of 100 percent supernatural-free forces I had yet to learn about, or that it resulted from a highly advanced technology. Gods, or for that matter, fairies, hobgoblins or gnomes, would never get any consideration as possible explanations.
jennifer
jennifer wrote to John, "I wonder if you would accept anything He did to show Himself....even if He stood in front of you it wouldn't be enough, it seems, as you wouldn't trust your own eyes unless He stayed by your side 24/7 or could be tested in a laboratory."
Mocking?? Jennifer you wrote this above to John as if to mock him in his inability to see your truth or (your personal delusion) that was only revealed to you in your own mind, yet you have the nerve to accuse me of mocking.
"As for the rest, if I thought you were sincere in your question I would take the time to answer but I hear mocking in your tone."
Oh how brilliantly convenient for you to bow out of a challenge that you already know you cannot prove.
Isn't that the normal christian stance, all talk and no proof.
Scott said:
"Steven,
You cannot be shown what you refuse to believe. Let me ask you again, if someone was able to answer every single question you have, what would that do for you?"
(Again, typical christian responce.)
All I ask for was one (1) bit of substantual evidence, and you come back with the same reverse rhetorical questions.
You're all talk and no show, this type of smoke and mirrors has been going on for thousands of years and we're very feed up with it.
God did not single me out. I meet people ALL THE TIME who have had similar experiences and we are all led to love our neighbor as ourselves wherever we are, whether that is in our house, bed ridden, or in community. (emphasis in the original)
Jennifer, how do you explain these people:
Reported miracles
In some books, magazines, filmed interviews and articles, Sathya Sai Baba's followers report miracles and healings of various kinds that they attribute to him. Sathya Sai Baba's devotees believe that he relieves his devotees by transfering their pain to himself. Daily, he is observed to allegedly manifest vibuthi (holy ash), and sometimes food and small objects such as rings, necklaces and watches.
In devotees' houses all around the world, there are claims from observers, journalists and devotees that vibuthi, kumkum, turmeric powder, holy water, Siva lingams, statues of deities (brass and gold), Sugar Candy, fruits, herbs, amrita (a fragrant, nectar-like honey), gems, colored string, writings in ash and various other substances spontaneously manifest and materialize on the walls, furniture, pictures and altars of Sathya Sai Baba. (from Wikipedia's entry on Sathya Sai Baba)
This is happening in the 20th century and real live people who know about science believe these miracles are taking place and that they prove Sai Baba is real. Does this convince you that he is right? Is this argument compelling to you?
If it is -- you have a lot of harmonizing to do. If it is not, the onus is on you to explain why your experiences have more validity than those of the devotees of Sai Baba.
Steven said,
"(Again, typical christian responce.)
All I ask for was one (1) bit of substantual evidence, and you come back with the same reverse rhetorical questions.
You're all talk and no show, this type of smoke and mirrors has been going on for thousands of years and we're very feed up with it."
Speaking of all talk and no show, this would be the (2nd) time you have avoided my question. As soon as you decide to answer my question, I'll be more than happy to answer yours. Now, for the third time, if someone answered every question you had, or provided all the evidence to satisfy you, what would that do for you?
Perhaps someone other than Steve would care to answer? I'm not having too much luck with ole' Steve. :)
If anyone has been following this thread, my first responce and question was to Jennifer only.
I'm not feeding the troll. That's you Scott.
John,
I used to say, "Well thank you, that's very kind of you" because it is an act of concern in their own way. Then I realized it was cowardice, and basically moral one-upmanship. It is a Christian middle finger really.
With this one line they can avoid you, avoid challenge, not put their beliefs on the line, and not make sense. They reinterpret their own fear as futility to feel justified: "you're too far gone, no use talking to you, I'll pray for you."
My answer is much like yours. If you've been praying all this time, why is God doing nothing to reveal himself to me? If your beliefs are so true, clear, and convincing, why not just sit me down and show me?
Sometimes I want to say, "Yeah? Fuck you too!" as a rhetorical divice to show them what they're really saying.
"I'll be thinking about you."
And when friends said they prayed for me during a recent illness, I told them, "Thank you for your kind thoughts."
I think being rude or going into a long sermon is unkind to our friends and neighbors.
--
Rev. Bob.
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