A Historical Kodak Moment!
Based on the Gospel of Mark 16:18: "They shall pick up serpents, and drink any deadly poison, it shall not hurt them."
Pictured here is the exact second a Bible Believer finds out that the Bible is not true.
However, due to the size of the Timber Rattle Snake striking so close to his brain, he probably did not live to tell about it!
32 comments:
As with all Christians; when he gets to Heaven I'm sure he'll be able to sit at the feet of Jesus and ask: "Why?"
Perhaps this person was not a bonifide "True Christian" somehow snakes and poison can discern between True Christians and non-christians...lol
There would suddenly be a lot of admittantly non-christians in church, if they had to take the poisonous liquid and poisonous snake test. Encluding most preachers and politicians too.
I think it should be manditory they take these tests, as it is proclaimed by Jesus in the Bible.
Put up or shut up, I say.
I'll be dipped in buttermilk if that doesn't look like Rick Santorum (the human, not the snake)!
I keep waiting for someone to move a mountain.
David Copperfield would be put to shame.
did that guy live?
Can't the apologist simply argue that "he didn't really believe strongly enough"? The bible's still true... it's not God's fault... We just didn't pray hard enough... or it's all part of God's plan.
Like the Christian Scientist who prays for healing rather than giving their diabetic son some insulin. Or prays for healing rather than giving their child a simple (but religiously proscribed) blood transfusion.
There's always a possible excuse -- always an unconvincing rationalization. What interests me is not the fact that people, especially very smart people, can come up with these excuses. What interests me is that special point where the believer finds that the explanation they're mouthing falls flat. That point where they realize that they, themselves don't even believe what they're saying.
Ouch!
About 8 years ago I bought a book that was a 1995 National Book Award Finalist entitled: Salvation on Sand Mountain: Snake Handling and Redemption in Southern Appalachia, by Dennis Covington. Covington, a professor of English at the University of Alabama and writer for the New York Times, lived among the poor white Southerners in Scottsboro, Alabama becoming a regular face at the worship services of “The Church of Jesus with Signs Following”. The book centers, not only around snake handing and the poison drinking of this sect, but also on the attempted murder by Rev. Glenn Summerford of his wife by forcing her hand in a cage of rattle snakes to cover up his adultery.
The Bible promotes proofs and demands for faith throughout its writings. Of note here are but a few: Daniel in the lion’s den (Daniel 6), The three Hebrews in the fiery furnace (Daniel 3), The test of faithfulness throughout the books of Joshua and Judges, Jesus’ demand for true faith throughout the Gospel narratives and ending with the test of faithfulness and apostasy in the book of Revelation.
The sad part is that believing adults of these sects sooner or later demand that their children prove there Biblical faith in the same dangerous manners.
End the end, static faith can only go so far. Whether it’s the polished miracle healing services of a millionaire evangelist Benny Hinn or the wild snake handling and dancing of poor white Southerners of rural Appalachia, proofs for the truth of Christianity drawn directly from the Bible will always be demanded by the believing community we call faith.
reminds me of a debate I had with a JW, who believed that before the fall there was no death, no suffering and all animals lived off plants. I live in a place where I see people in the emergency room who have been biten by the massassauga rattle snake ( near killbear part Ontario). Besides the massive local swelling and pain, the venom causes a horrible coagulopathy, depleting the body of fibrinogen, a factor involved in the clotting cascade. I noted that other snake venoms are specifically neurotoxins.
I wondered how this worked prior to the fall. The JW argued that fangs and venom might have been used to help digest plant material.(lol).
He further argued that great white sharks,orcas,tigers and lions and cheetahs where also vegetarians.
I wonder why God made a cheetah so fast if all it ate was plants.
I also asked why Adam had ribs.Ribs have at least two functions.One is part of a pump for the exchange of gases.The other is to protect vitals organs. The ribs are located so as to protect the kidneys, spleen, liver, lungs and heart.
If there was to be no death or suffering, why did God design things like ribs,immune systems..
But the guy had answers....albeit bad ones. And the thing was, this guy was quite intelligent.
This is too close for comfort. There were no snakes involved but the same attitude of proving your faith to God caused the death of my grandfather and my mother. My grandpa died of easily treated skin cancer that spread due to his refusal to see a doctor and my mother died from complications due to diabetes of which see was "healed". Numbness of the feet, vision problems, dialysis, and finally heart failure, all because she was healed and just knew it.
However, my dad who was the loudest of the bunch went to the doctor and got his bypass surgery even though he encouraged both mom and grandpa to believe and have faith that divine healing was theirs. I despise him for his hypocrisy.
I can't converse with him anymore because he is always telling me about the promises of God. God heals, blesses you with wealth, etc. If I have a cold my Dad will tell me how he rebukes the cold demon (sometimes it doesn't work but that doesn't deter him). When a mole ruins his yard he commands the mole to leave or die in the name of Jesus.
I grew up with this nonsense and I feel cheated because you can't have a relationship with nut jobs. I feel sorry for the children of these snake handlers. It must be horrific. In order to survive you must become deranged. What a horrible choice to have to make.
I'm no Steve Irwin, (obviously) but the snake in that picture is a non-venamous python. This is cheating if you were a snake handler. This would be like the petting zoo of the retile world. The eyes are too low, the pits along the front top of the mouth are not like the pits of a viper.
I have to ditto what lee has said (above) this is not a Crotalid of any type. Sorry folks, no venom here, although pythons have a nasty bite anyway. This could still result in infection.
Lee, this picture was sent to me by a friend. I have no more information on the type of snake and it could very well be a Green Tree Python, however I Googled up the Green Python and the eyes look much larger and the green color seems much more pronounced.
While the specific origin of this photo is not clear, God fearing Christians people have been killed handling snakes as one article from 1994 stated:
“To date, at least seventy-two people have been killed by poisonous snakes during religious services in the United States, including the man said to have started the whole thing, George Went Hensley, who died vomiting blood in a shed in North Florida in 1955. Hensley had started handing around 1910 and had been bitten more than 400 times before the fatal blow.”(Salvation on Sand Mountain, p.148).
“In 1951, a New Hope (Alabama) farm wife named Ruthie Craig, fifty, brought a glass jar containing a large rattlesnake into religious services at her home. “I’m going to handle the snake and anyone who doesn’t believe had better leave,” she said. The she tried to extract the snake from the jar. It wouldn’t budge, so she broke the glass. The rattlesnake slithered onto the floor and towards an open door. Mrs. Craig tried to catch it, but it turned on her and bit her four times on the right forearm and shoulder before it escaped.
Asked later if she wanted a doctor, Mrs. Craig said, “Anything for ease.” But someone in the congregation said she would loose her faith if she called a doctor, so Mrs. Craig rejected help, fell into a coma, and died four hours later. The Madison County coroner ruled it an accident.” (Salvation on Sand Mountain, p 149).
Anyone who wants to witness some real snake handling in churches should check out the videos on You-Tube under the topic of “Snake Handling”.
normajean said...
did that guy live?
My reply...
I certainly hope not.
(JH)
Hi,
I posted on this nonsense here;
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2008/03/16/signs-and-wonders
Maybe it was venomous when the guy picked it up, but Jesus miraculously tranformed it into a non-venomous snake before it bit the guy's nose. Who are we to question how God fulfils his promises.
Jesus made the promise about serpents to the twelve Apostles, and later extended it to Paul.
Hey, if I won't be immune to serpents, what's the point of becoming a Christian? Count me out...
Jesus made the promise about serpents to the twelve Apostles, and later extended it to Paul.
Also known as the "You didn't think I was talking to you, did you?" defense.
My wife wondered, "Why don't they start drinking Drano?" I thought it was a good question, so I posted it. Seems pretty poisonous. And painful.
Harry,
My post wasn't and apology for snake handlers, just an observation that this picture is a non-venomous variety.
As a child my family sang southern gospel music. Our adventures took us once to the mountains of the North Carolina, Tennessee border where the entire congregation combined might have together had one set of teeth. This was the early 60's and the road to the church looked like a logging trail. It would not have been that tremendous of a surprise if one of the men there hadn't told me, "you gotta purty mouth." I was like a slide show at a dental convention where the topic of discussion was the , "Horrors of Gingivitis." Believe me I understand from experience the ignorance of snake handlers.
My father made it a habit thereafter of asking a few more questions, before accepting an invitation to come and sing anywhere.
Lee, no problem here as I understand from the book "Salvation on Sand Mountain" that many Christian snake handlers get started with no poisonous snakes and then most move up to the venomous type.
The MAIN key phase of Mark 16: 18 is “…it will NOT HURT them.” So whether it’s the injection of venom from a Copperhead (which facts show never kills a healthy adult) or the skin being torn off when a python curved fangs like teeth are removed, it really does not matter. The key issue of the promise of Mark 16: 18 failed; since his man was hurt counter the promise of Jesus in Mark of simply not being hurt! (As for the claim of the Bible defenders: Yes, I know it’s a late addition to Mark…but the fact remains it IS Biblical just as michael ejercito pointed out above by using St. Paul’s example in Acts 28: 3-6).
Lee, sounds like you really had some adventures as a youth in Christianity with you traveling dad. Thanks for sharing that one.
Suprisingly no one bothered to mention this is a textual variant? All the translations I own save the Authorized KJV include this in brackets or the margin, and always have a note of some sort discussing the various manuscript evidence against including this at all. I'll spare the tedious citations because those who care probably already know these facts, but just for the general audience I'd like to point out Jerome and Eusebius knew of almost no Greek MSS that had this ending. (NET Bible Critical notes on Mark 16). Also there are several MSS that include marginal comments noting that earlier MSS lacked the verses, while other mark the text with asterisks or obeli (symbols that scribes used to indicate that the portion of the being copied was spurious).
Many of you may have studied textual criticism and can argue again my position using whatever manuscripts you deem more favorable (and I welcome you to)...but for those of you who just read the post and started yacking away with the rhetoric and hatefulness...in my opinion you're no better than the Christians who read the Bible and tried to drink poison. Do a little homework for crying out loud....which is what I have to go do now :)
I'm sure some would contend that God shouldn't have allowed for this variant because of the suffering it caused the people who misunderstood it....but thats beside the point (just getting that out of the way to save others the trouble)
This reminds me somewhat of the Darwin awards and one particular case a year or two back of a man jumping into a lion enclosure at a zoo and shouting to those watching "If god exists, he will protect me".
He was promptly leapt upon by a hungry lioness, had his jugular severed and died. That kind of wraps that one up as far as i am concerned.
Another instance not that far in the distant past was the preacher that dragged some of his congregation to the seafront where he tried to repeat Christs miracle of walking on water. He drowned while his congregation watched.
David, I think most of the contributors are aware that it's a textual variant, and I think the reason it was included was because we have people on the Ehrman thread talking about how all the textual variants don't contribute to any doctrines.
Maybe I'm wrong, but the point being brought home to me is that certainly are people who base their beliefs on textual variants that are likely not in the original autographs of the NT.
I think it's hard to imagine Marcion putting in all those epistles into his first canon without nudging Paul a bit and it's even harder to imagine the proto-orthodox Roman church not nudging Paul back a bit.
David,
Textual sincerity is not welcomed at these churches whose members, as lead by their uneducated pastor, compare seminaries to cemeteries. I would simply challenge you to show up with a United Bible Society Greek New Testament and try to tell these people what you just stated about this being a late textual variant on Mark (I know, I tried back in the mid seventies). You would be verbally attacked as “taking away from Scripture” just as Revelation 22:19 condemns as understood by them .
For these people it’s: “God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit and God the King James Bible”.
To them, education and Satan have one thing in common; to attack and destroy God’s Word as revealed in the K.J.V.
Regards,
Harry
Evan and Harry, that makes sense. Its strange I grew up in Southern Va but managed to thankfully never encounter any of that stuff. I think they're up in the mountains or something :)
Oh speaking of Ehrman and textual criticism...he has two big debates coming up that might be of interst:
Bart Ehrman vs Dan Wallace "The Textual Reliability of the New Testament"
http://www.greer-heard.com/index.shtml
Bart Ehrman vs James White "Can the New Testament be Inspired in Light of Textual Variation"
http://sovereigncruises.org/AO2009/debate.htm
Maybe I should have posted this on the Ehrman page?
David,
Bart Ehrman was at Furman University last year and delivered an address on the Gospel on Judas. After the lecture was over, he waited while people came up to him and asked questions. I had a question on the way the Qumran Scrolls were handled compared to the way the Coptic codices were handle…anyway, just a general question (To be more specific, scholar James M. Robinson’s roll in both the Scrolls and the Gnostic Coptic Library). Ehrman seemed very guarded as I shook his hand and asked my question. It seems as if many of these noted scholars get attacked and are always some what stiff and guarded in public on a one-to-one bases.
I could say the same for Robert Oden who had done a number of courses for the Teaching Company. I got so used to hearing his friendly lecture on the multiple courses he used to have listed with them, but when I called him on the phone to ask his position on the Gleason Archer’s (the editor / author of the text “Handbook of Bible Difficulties”) he acted very strange as if he never expect anyone who heard his tapes on the Old Testament to call him (although, at the time, the insert with the tapes invited questions).
I think there is often a difference between the polished lectures or books written and the impromptu questions these scholars face in real time. However, I have talked on the phone to a number of other scholars (New Testament scholar, James M. Robinson, Hebrew scholar William L. Holladay, and the late Old Testament / Semitic scholar, C.H. Gordon) who were very much at ease with questions.
As to my commits on the poor back-woods Christians who accept only the “1611” King James Version; out of the pulpit, most of these pastors too seem stiff and not prepared to answer questions on their positions (which I can understand) since a number I’ve met could not read or write (In oder to preach, someone would read the Bible and the preacher could preach for 30 – 45 minutes).
However, as one preacher in the Blue Ridge Mountains once told me: “If the 1611 King James Version was good enough for Peter and Paul, brother, it’s good enough for me!”
"Kodak moment"? That seems like you're making light of someone's death (or, at the least, someone's bad luck). It's unfortunate that most christians never realize that the Mark verse in question is not in the oldest manuscripts... but that's beside the point.
Patrick: As Forrest Gump would say: "Stupid is as stupid does."
Or
As Charles Darwin would phase it: "The survival of the fittest."
The man put his finical faith in Enron and lost. What else can I say?
Harry, whether his beliefs were silly is irrelevant. He had to have been sincere, otherwise he wouldn't have taken such a stupid risk. And yes, I agree, it was stupid... even moreso because that verse in Mark isn't even in the oldest manuscripts.
But he must have either (a) lost his life, (b) lost his faith (and therefore had a sense of meaning ripped away from him), or (c) has a forced faith that deep down he knows his false. None of those options should be laughed at.
Regardless of whether the broader claims about Christianity here are accurate (and I disagree with many of the arguments found at this site), the point is that we shouldn't take pleasure in someone else's great pain. I think most secular humanists would agree with me.
I felt the same way when people were mocking the crocodile hunter for being "so stupid" with animals.
anyway, thanks for replying.
-- Pat
This passage in Mark was written in one of the first books of the New Testament. Before the New Testament was completed some 40 years later, God gave spiritual gifts and abilities to certain ones as credentials that what they were preaching, God's revelation,
God's word was actually from God. Once God was finished inspiring men to write His Word down, it was the authority to judge preachers by, not whether they could do miraculous things. First Corinthians 13:8-10 speaks of how these miraculous gifts would disappear once that which is "perfect" (complete) (the New Testament) is come.
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