The Goals of Debunking Christianity

When I first started this blog in January '06 I wanted to choose a title that best described what I intended to accomplish that would also grab people's attention, so I chose the present title, Debunking Christianity. It has done it's work well. When you see it listed on another blog or website it grabs your attention. It has increased our traffic.

This title also best describes my goals. My goals are negative ones. I do not intend to defend atheism, per se, even though I am an atheist, but to argue against evangelical Christianity, which is the most obnoxious type of that faith held by the majority who are so cocksure of their views. I'm merely claiming that their type of Christianiy is a delusion, something every non-Christian and liberal Christian can agree with me about. This is my niche, and I hope I'm doing this well. To those who disagree with these goals I respond that by having narrow goals of this type I can better achieve them. Larger goals are harder to achieve, because the larger the claim is the harder it is to defend. My goals allow me to focus on one thing and to do it well. My primary goal is to knock conservative Christians off of center...to make them question their beliefs. Where they end up after this is not my immediate concern. There are other sites and other books that can take up where I leave off. But I'm doing the hard work, not that debunking evangelical Christianity itself is difficult, but that getting Christians to acknowledge that their faith is delusionary is indeed difficult. And I've been willing to take the barbs thrown my way (not with pleasure) for this purpose.

Then I began inviting people on DC who shared these same goals, and we have developed quite a nice list of contributors, beginning with exbeliever. Some contributors merely wanted to post their deconversion stories, while others have come and gone for various reasons, and I thank them all for their contributions.

But the title of this blog also leads to some confusions. One confusion is that it sounds offensive. It sounds as if we are hostile to Christian people themselves. It sounds like a personal attack. But we're not at all hostile to Christian people, unless provoked, and I have been provoked quite a bit simply because this blog exists. We try our best to be cordial and polite, although this is difficult to do in the midst of these type of debates, especially when dealing with a belief system we think is akin to Holocaust deniers and Flat Earth Society members. It's hard not to ridicule what we think has no evidence for it, but we try really hard not to so.

The title may also lead Christians to think we are ignorant, since skeptics have tried to debunk Christianity for millenia to no avail. Some Christians have shown up here, read one post, and blasted us without seeing the depth of our arguments. They in turn soon realize that we do know what we're talking about. No one can say all that he knows in one post. So because we leave out something, a Christian might retort with a Bible passage as if we've never considered that before. It doesn't take long for that Christian to see we have considered it and rejected something about it.

The title also sounds as if we are hostile toward the Christian faith, so it provokes hostility in return. Well, in some real sense we are a bit hostile to Christianity. We think it causes harm in many ways, yes. But even though this is true in varying degrees, we try to dispassionately argue against it. We are testing our arguments against what Christians can throw at us, and we have learned a few things in our debates. I personally love to learn from others no matter what they believe, and I do. No one has a corner on the truth. We admit this. If we are wrong show us, that's all we ask, although we no more think we are wrong then others who disagree.

As former insiders to the Christian faith we reject it with the same confidence that Christians reject the faiths of all other religions, even other branches of Christianity. The rejection is the easy part. We all do it. My claim is that agnosticism is the default position, which merely claims "I don't know". Anyone moving off the default position has the burden of proof, for in doing so that person is making a positive knowledge claim. When I argue for atheism I too am making a positive knowledge claim that must bear its own burden of proof. But I also claim moving from agnosticism to atheism is a very small step when compared to moving up the ladder to a full blown evangelical Baptist Christianity (as but one denomination among many), past pantheism, panentheism, deism, theism, Christianity, and evangelical Christianity itself.

14 comments:

Trou said...

I would like to reinforce the point that Evangelical Christianity is so damaging in many different ways. If this were not so then there would be no reason to confront these issues at all.
Thank you for your persistence and willingness to stand up to this nonsense that is trying to drag our country back to the dark ages.

Jason said...

which is the most obnoxious type of that faith held by the majority who are so cocksure of their views.

If atheists are cocksure of their views, doesn't this make them obnoxious as well...?

Timothy David said...

Thanks for this statement:

'My claim is that agnosticism is the default position, which merely claims "I don't know". Anyone moving off the default position has the burden of proof, for in doing so that person is making a positive knowledge claim. When I argue for atheism I too am making a positive knowledge claim that must bear its own burden of proof.'

I've never understood the atheists/theists/deists/what-have-you who assert that their view is the default position. Agnosticism seems to me to be the most humble starting point. Of course, agnosticism is often times used a term that becomes synonymous with intellectual laziness. It is possible to study the subject of the Divine your entire life and still be agnostic, but many of the self-styled "agnostics" I meet know next to nothing about religion or atheism.

trou: I've been hearing a lot of atheists parroting back the "dark ages" nonsense. Any student of the dark ages was a time ill-named. It was a time of wonderful art, music, and the rise of primitive science. If we're headed for the dark ages then we have hope that next renaissance isn't far behind.

Joey said...

Thanks for this great resource.

Steven A. Stine said...

I am not greatly educated or studied in matters of theology or agnosticism. Your "claim", as you put it, is the "default position" which merely embraces the "I don't know" position. Evangelical Christianity (or any brand of Biblical Christian Faith, for that matter) is not based upon first hand "proof" or irrefutable evidence of doctrine. There are proofs offered and recorded in Scripture but nothing of such IMMEDIATE magnitude that someone without FAITH is likely to be convinced!

The central tenet of Christ's teachings and Christian Doctrine is FAITH. Irrefutable proofs and evidence are denied immediate exhibit because it is He that desires Faith above all else and, as such, He has limited so-called evidence so that Faith remains relevant and vital in our relationship to Him!

It only stands to reason that you "don't know." Neither do I or anyone else (on the basis of first-hand experience or final scientific evidence). You and I WILL KNOW, however, when He finally permits Himself to be revealed on that last Day.

Claiming that "I don't know" is very tenuous (even dangerous) from my perspective when attempting to "debunk" Christianity! Your "I don't know" position would seem to conflict with the very goal of this blog which is to "debunk" something that is inconclusive in your mind! This very statement ("I don't know") suggests an open mind to the possibility that, YES, there could be a God! Respectfully, why would you aspire to "debunking" something that you haven't reached a conclusion about? Or ... have I misunderstood or misinterpreted your position??

Thanks for allowing my post. I do question your default position (inconclusive) and its relevance to a blog dedicated to a conclusive cause!

goprairie said...

is the default position for santa and leprachauns and volcano gods also "I don't know"? the evidence for those things is totally lacking and claims that such things exist are absurd. much the same CAN INDEED be said of christianity, so if the default position for santa and the like is "it is made up nonsense" then the default for christianity and any other religion is the same. we only allow that agnosticism is the default because we were taught that there is a god by people we trust and really don;t want to give it up. but there is not evidence, historical, scientific, forensic, physical, and so the true honest default should be . . . atheism.

Evan said...

I think that what John is saying is that on a Bayesian analysis you can't be 100% sure that any mythical thing exists and this is what he means by default agnosticism.

That being said, when he says the move to atheism is small, it is precisely because when you consider what the "live options" are after you adopt that default position -- atheism looks markedly superior to the rest -- as does a-Santaism and a-leprechaunism.

Trou said...

trou: I've been hearing a lot of atheists parroting back the "dark ages" nonsense. Any student of the dark ages was a time ill-named. It was a time of wonderful art, music, and the rise of primitive science. If we're headed for the dark ages then we have hope that next renaissance isn't far behind.

Yes, it must have been a wonderful time to earn the name Dark Ages.
Well, I suppose that a small minority of elite were doing well with a few skilled craftsmen and artists benefiting from their largesse. That would be the reason for the art and music. What you are remembering probably is the beginning of the renaissance when the bonds of the Dark Ages were being broken.
If you recall, what brought about the Dark Ages was the destruction of all libraries and learning centers, religions other than Christianity through horrific violence. Hypatia, who was a respected and beloved scholar of mathematics, philosophy and astronomy was killed by monks who skinned her alive then set her on fire. She was said to be a valiant defender of science against religion. When all the books were burned and with all that knowledge lost that's when your wonderful Dark Ages began.
I must say that I don’t see the point in glorifying the loss of so much knowledge in the violent way that it happened and continued to happen for hundreds of years only to say that it paved the way for a renaissance. And you so flippantly say that if we are to expect a repeat of this history then we can hope for another renaissance so it will be alright.
The first point is, why destroy all scientific knowledge, call it a good time had by all then hope for a renaissance? Why hope if it was all good?
Secondly, I don’t want to play the part of Hypatia or the lover of science who gets killed or otherwise mistreated.
Maybe you didn’t think it through very well and spoke too soon but I find what you said to be ignorant and highly offensive. People like you make me afraid for what would happen to many of us if a theocracy were to be our fate in this country. That’s why I appreciate what John does and why it’s so important.

Timothy David said...

First off, I'm a bit embarrassed by the typos in my last post. I really ought to sleep more.

Now, to some degree your charge of "ignorance" is well founded. But I tend towards wrongness so often that if I stop to apologize every time I make a mistake, I'll never get around to replying to you!

True, the death of Hypatia is often associated with the decline of the Hellenic era, but let us not forget that she was a foe to only *certain* Christians. In fact, many Christians were fond of her! I could also add (though it may be a moot point, because a killing is killing) that the actual records of Hypatia's death are conflicting, and that she was probably killed for reasons both religious AND political. But that's not really the crux of the matter is it?

The term "Dark Ages" as you probably know, has been largely replaced by the term "Middle Ages" partly to get rid of all the baggage associated with the term. A lot of people I talk to (you might not have been one of them) seem use "Dark Ages" to sum up the entire period before the Renaissance (I think I did that, actually--again, "ignorance" is a fair charge.)
But the Middle Ages, remember, can be broken into the "early" and "late" periods. If we're talking about (say) roughly the period between roughly 4 and 600 (now called "the Dark Ages") then, yes, I'll admit that that was not the sort of time I'd like to return to. But if we're talking about the ENTIRE Middle Ages, then I maintain that it wasn't an entirely awful time. I wouldn't mind be an Medievalist, actually. It wasn't perfect, of course, but neither was the 20th century, which saw a rise in both science and secularism, but was a heinous, bloody time nonetheless.

And "loss of knowledge" -- what are you talking about? Many of the major thinkers of the Middle Ages were ardent students of Greek Philosophy, Mathematics, and Natural History. Anselm and Aquinas come to mind...

Finally, I'm a Deist, so I don't think you'll need to worry about a theocratic uprising from me.

Anonymous said...

Evan, thanks for answering goprarie for me. Let me take a turn.

goprarie said: is the default position for santa and leprachauns and volcano gods also "I don't know"?

Let the question be this one, "why does this universe exist?" There are only a few possible answers. One of them is the brute fact of a God or spirit who has always existed outside of time who created us. Another answer is that an infinite series of universes has always existed and is all there is. A third answer is that our particular universe popped into existence out of nothing.

Like Sam Harris I think we should admit that we just don't know why this universe exists from the options. As an atheist I don't think option one is a very strong option, of course, but since I cannot rule it out it is still an option, and that option is deism.

From here I can deny some options that go beyond those just mentioned easily. I can easily deny all of the dead gods and goddesses of the past, and I can easily deny a trinitarian God who became incarnate on this pale blue dot to atone for my sins who will return and take people to heaven. That's the easy part, and we all easily deny the claims of other religious viewpoints.

When I say the default position is agnosticism I'm referring to that which we can affirm. We deny the claims of others, but what can we affirm? We are making no knowledge claim at all, just denying the claims of others. But once we make a positive knowledge claim to answer why we exist we shoulder the burden of proof.

goprairie said...

john
so we don't know how the universe started so we should not rule out a god did it? started it up and then went silent? and who started that god? if you allow it was a god, you create an infinite regression backwards. you are willing to debunk god in all other ways yet cling to the possibility for first point. try this: instead of defending agnosticism as the default position, pretend it was MY idea and try your best to debunk that. i bet you will make more sense at that game.

Anonymous said...

goprarie, before I can debunk your idea I have to know what your idea is. But I do not care to defend the idea that some non-personal spiritual being exits who may have created the universe or who may animate it. I can most definitely do that even though in the end I reject it for the same reasons you do.

Tell me this what is the ontological difference between atheism/naturalism and pantheism? Do you know? Monism.

goprairie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
goprairie said...

"Tell me this what is the ontological difference between atheism/naturalism and pantheism? Do you know?"
John - what was the point of your question? A quiz to see if I was worthy or some other reason? I had a long non-answer up that I deleted meaning to research your words and actually answer, but if this trail is cold and you aren't interested, I won;t bother.