Oh that poor soul. Clearly he has fallen under the influence of satan and now he'll burn in hell for eternity. I'm gonna pray that Jesus can touch his heart and make him see the folly of his ways before it's too late.
yes, emo - I'm sure your profound words will motivate Jesus to get out of his easy chair in order to show this man "the light." Who is the boss of this relationship? Can't Jesus do it because it would be the right thing to do, or does he need you begging him to do right?
It would be nice to read/hear more about Mr. Semes' experiences. He seems to have little bitterness or harsh feelings toward believers and their faith despite how he felt he was treated. Nice article!
Derek, you just don't 'get it'. You have to open your heart to the Lord to let his light and love shine through! Clearly Mr. Seme's shut the door to his heart. I'm gonna pray for you right now to ask Jesus to lighten your spirit and open your heart. Let me know if it worked and you feel his presence.
You're right, though. I just don't "get it." For 25 years I haven't "got it." I really tried for a long time and it never came. Like many people with perspective on this I read scripture, I prayed hard, and I worked hard at maintaining a front of believing until one day Jesus would speak to my heart. The silence was deafening. Maybe you could tell me the objective sensation I am to look out for.
Here is a man (Semes) with years of intimate scriptural knowledge and who honestly worked for and gave his all to this god. Does this god not think highly enough of his agents or their dedication to him that he would allow them to be swayed by anti-god? Sounds like this god's love shines dimly onto the hearts of man.
Why doesn't Jesus come to the hearts of those who have never heard the Christian story through men? I mean outside of the patriarchs, of course. I have yet to hear a reasonably credible story in modern times where somebody with no knowledge of Abraham's god spontaneously gained such knowledge.
IMO, Mr. Semes has left the door ajar. He has merely found a more responsive and responsible focus for his energy and kind heart.
emo, If Mr. Semes opens his heart, all his blood will spurt out. In a short time he won't feel anything, because he'll be dead from loss of blood. Then, what will Jesus do for him?
emodude: According to the Gospel accounts, Jesus demonstrated that he had indeed resurrected from the dead by appearing to his followers. Later, according to Acts, Jesus appeared to Saul to demonstrate he was alive and ascended. The Bible tells us that Yahweh is not a respecter of persons and that it is the will of Yahweh that all be saved. Now if Jesus had to appear to those people to prove he was alive an resurrected,
"Why doesn't Jesus appear to everyone and prove that he is resurrected, just like he appeared to Paul? There is nothing to stop Jesus from materializing in your kitchen tonight to have a personal chat with you. And if you think about it, Jesus really does need to appear to each of us. If Paul needed a personal visit from Jesus to know that Jesus was resurrected, then why wouldn't you?
It is an important question for the following reasons:
* We are told by the Bible that Jesus appeared to hundreds of people.
* We therefore know that it is OK for Jesus to appear to people -- it does not take away their free will, for example -- because it was OK for Jesus to appear to hundreds of other people.
* We know that it would be easy for Jesus to appear to everyone all through history, since Jesus is all-powerful and timeless.
* We know that, if Jesus did reappear to everyone, it would be incredibly helpful. We could all know, personally, that Jesus is resurrected and that Jesus is God. If Paul (and all the other people in the Bible) needed a personal visit to know that Jesus was resurrected, then why not you and me?
* Yet, we all know that Jesus has not appeared to anyone in 2,000 years.
In other words, there is nothing stopping Jesus from appearing to you, and several good reasons for him to appear.
In addition, Jesus promises that he will appear to you. All that we have to do is pray to Jesus like this: "Dear Jesus, please appear to us, as you did to Paul and the 500 brethren, so that we can see the evidence of your resurrection. In your name we pray, amen." Here is what Jesus has promised us in the Bible:
Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:
Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
In John chapter 14:14:
Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.
In Matthew 18:19:
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Jesus is actually in our midst. So he is right here already, supposedly. Yet when we pray to him to physically materialize, as he did to hundreds of others, nothing happens.
Isn't it odd that Nothing happens, given the fact that Jesus promises us that something will happen? Isn't it odd that Nothing happens when, supposedly, Jesus is right here with us already, and materialization would be trivial for him? Isn't it odd that Nothing happens when, supposedly, Jesus was happy to appear to hundreds of others? " http://www.godisimaginary.com/i50.htm
But Jesus won't appear to anyone who prays hard and faith believing even when such appearances would be in accordance with the will of Yahweh and the promises of answered prayer. Jesus allegedly appeared to Saul(Paul), but not to Semes or to countless others. The most likely explanation is that Yahweh and Jesus are imaginary.
Hey emodude, You are most certainly kidding aren't you? You are doing a good imitation of an evangelical but what is the difference between a good spoof and a real Christian belief? What's the point?
On the chance that you are being serious let me translate for you. "Open your heart" means gullibly believe religious nonsense without any shred of evidence or don't let reason and reality get in the way of what you would like to believe or wished were real.
I doubt that this guy will “open his heart” after being immersed in Christianity for so many years and finally taking an honest look at where it had gotten him and where it was leading him. What led him to forsake his faith was opening his mind. He finally faced the truth and was honest enough and had enough integrity to accept the verdict. I’m happy for him although the adjustment to a new life and a new way of thinking will take some getting used to.
You might try being truthful with yourself. It is very liberating.
Emo, being familiar with earlier comments, I knew where you were heading...but I really enjoyed the reactions from others. Thanks for the fun!
And being a former pastor my own self, I can say that liberation takes on a whole new meaning when one finally admits to oneself and others that there is no god, no need for religion, and this "church" crap is really as insane, ludicrous and irrelevant as one struggled to deny for almost a quarter of a century. Whoo...that felt good!
I usually don't participate in these silly comment exchanges (I say this to the shame of both the atheists and the Christians), but I feel I have to set the record straight on something which atheists continually harp on without any evidence whatsoever.
Robert_b claims that "we all know that Jesus has not appeared to anyone in 2,000 years"
There are several wierd things about this statement epistemologically coming from an atheist (does this presume that we KNOW that he HAS appeared to some people 2000 years ago?), but I want to focus on the claim itself, which is simply NOT true. There have been countless reports of dominical appearances since the times of the early Church, extending into the modern period. Philosopher Philip Wiebe has documented and analyzed 30 particularly impressive cases in his book "Visions of Jesus". Now from an atheist perspective they are just that, reports. But then again, so are the New Testament appearances. The point is that the question which atheists so often ask, i.e. "Why doesn't Jesus appear to anyone else?" is either question begging (if you claim to KNOW that Jesus has never appeared to anyone) or evidentially wrong. There are many reports of Jesus having appeared to many other people, which of course have to be scrutinized with all the available tools of critical thought (again, see Wiebe's book). So please stop parroting that silly challenge.
JD, nice to have you here, but remember, not all atheists can be stereotyped like you just did. My question is this: Why does Jesus not convince me of the truth if he knows what it would take to do so?
JD Walters, I checked out your blog profile, and must say your picture sure looks like Jesus himself (icon noted). So, technically and as a atheist, I can say I have seen Jesus myself and now, again (as an atheist), I can say that I now know Jesus exists and all atheists only need to checkout this iconic picture to KNOW Jesus is still appearing to all the earth after 2,000 years (Just as the Greek Orthodox claim about their icons). After all, the Orthodox claim icons have powers of their own and there have been reports of weeping icons in Mexico!
More to the point, the funny thing about this is that Jesus ONLY appears to the already believing soul and never to the agnostic or atheist.
You stated: “I usually don't participate in these silly comment exchanges (I say this to the shame of both the atheists and the Christians), but I feel I have to set the record straight on something which atheists continually harp on without any evidence whatsoever.”
I don’t know if you are a member of some Orthodox Church that values icons (Non Catholic), but I discussed St. George killing the dragon with the Greek priest here in Greenville (St. George Greek Orthodox Church) and he believes in dragons as much as he believes in Jesus. I did visit his Greek Orthodox Church and I did see a holy icon of St. George slaying a snaked necked, bat winged dragon (the reason George was made a saint) and now I too can say that this old atheist now believes in dragons, Jesus, St. George and the miracles of holy icons!
"Fine, you guys are right. I deny the holy spirit! I feel liberated!"
Did you have to take a shower to wash off the smarm after your impersonation of a Jeebusbot? Hey you turd flinger and unpardonable sin committer, now I'm hesitant to respond to JD Walters comment because he might be an imposter too. I don't want to use up all my ammo for target practice. Oh well, I'll respond just in case. JD, just because there are reports of sightings doesn't in the slightest suggest they are real. The question should occur to you as to why the Christians see Jesus, the Christian Catholics see Mary and the Muslims see Mohammad, etc. On a related note, why do near death experiences follow the same cultural/religious trends of Christians seeing heaven and Muslims seeing paradise? This should cause you to consider whether or not these reports are true or whether maybe there is some psychological and therefore natural explanation for some of these reports. Also, they could be complete fabrications. Why assume they are true? As to the challenge. I would like to see Jesus appear to me but that wouldn't be enough to satisfy me. He would have a lot of explaining to do. He has a lot to answer for. In other words, if there was a God that would not necessarily mean I would want anything to do with him.
Emo, I knew you would see it my way eventually ;) A win is a win is a win.....
I agree with JD that seeing a vision of Jesus is never going to be proof, especially to skeptics. But it does not categorically deny we could actually "prove" Jesus communicates with men. I think the question still begs to be answered, "Why doesn't the word of god come to the hearts of those who have never heard the Christian story through men?" We have no stories of somebody on the Tibetan plateau (or pre-Comlumbian Americas) inexplicably knowing the gospels or reciting the 10 commandments or knowing who begat who. We could ask if missionaries had been to the area or find out the availability of Christian books locally and authenticate the claim of revelation to a much larger extant than seeing an image.
To hear a story like that would put a dent in my skepticism. Instead, we can only illustrate how these stories are disseminated by the hands and mouths of mortal humans. One of these "accepted" accounts of divine revelation is the conversion of Saul/Paul. Unfortunately, we know that Paul was familiar enough with the Christian story to have been a persistent persecutor. God may have appeared to him or given him information, but he likely knew enough of the belief system to fabricate his own gospel stories.
Hello JD Walters. Thanks for noticing the stuff I quoted from http://www.godisimaginary.com The argument there against god and Christian belief is a blend of the arguments from evil and the hiddeness of God. While its a little long winded, its worth the time.
But the cite I lifted from page 50 makes an excellent point about the problem of Saul (later Paul). Saul was persecuting the early Christians, some of whom may have been alleged eyewitnesses to the alleged resurrected Christ. Their direct testimony was not sufficient to convince Saul that Jesus had indeed resurrected. This prompts a question. Why, since Yahweh-Jesus is purportedly not a respecter of persons and treats all fairly and justly, and why if it is the will of Yahweh-Jesus that all be saved, and why if the direct testimony of alleged eyewitnesses to the resurrected Christ was insufficient to convince Saul, would Yahweh-Jesus appear to Saul on the road to Damascus but not to each and every person in such a way as to be completely convincing? It might be argued that Yahweh-Jesus is sovereign and under no obligations. That does not address the question, for it is the desire of Yahweh-Jesus' to bring about a particular end not any obligation that is in question. Allegedly, Yahweh-Jesus created existence. If so then why would Yahweh-Jesus not reasonably and logically conform its actions to the principle of final causation, that is the desired ends determines the means whereby such ends are obtained. Saul was a hostile enemy of Christianity. Yet Yahweh-Jesus allegedly choose to directly reveal itself to Saul but not to John Loftus or Semes. If it is the will of Yahweh-Jesus that Loftus and Semes believe, why is it that sufficient compelling evidence for the predicated dogmas is not provided? This is not in conformity to the principle of final causation. Perhaps it may be the case, if assuming Yahweh-Jesus actually exists, that Yahweh-Jesus does not desire all people to be saved. If the doctrine of predestination stipulated by Paul in Romans ch.9 obtains, then the failure of Jesus to appear would be explained. But then Yahweh-Jesus would be unjust, despite Paul's appeal to Yahweh-Jesus' alleged sovereignty. If Yahweh-Jesus is unjust, then it cannot be the most appropriate object of worship and hence cannot be God.
Dawson Bethrick at the bahnsenburner.blogspot.com, Incinerating Presuppositionalism blog wrote: "But if such a being did exist and it wanted men to believe in it and accept its sacrificed son as their Lord and Savior, what better way to accomplish this end than to reveal itself in an obvious way before them, just as the book of Acts says it did for Saul of Tarsus?
The objection solidly rests on what Christians should be more than willing to take as biblical precedent, and, as mentioned above, upon the principle of final causation: a desired end determines the most fruitful and surefire means of achieving it. What we are expected to believe is that, instead of appearing before us as it allegedly did for Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus, the Christian god actually prefers to send fallible men armed with flimsy arguments and no objective evidence to go through the hit-or-miss motions dictated by Christ’s “great commission.” This, we are told to believe, is the preference of a loving god which does not play favorites. On top of this, believers themselves – the ones who come to us with these flimsy arguments and lack of evidence – claim that they were moved to belief by an invisible “Holy Spirit” which “worked” in them a faith and desire to know this god, quite different from Saul's experience. The biblical precedent of Saul’s conversion by means of a personal self-revelation of Jesus in empirical form remains confined to the pages of the storybook and is denied to those who exist today, regardless of whether or not they end up "believing." And while they claim, contrary to what we're supposed to believe about Saul of Tarsus, that their belief is the result of the moving of an invisible magic spirit which somehow influences their minds in some fundamental but poorly explained manner, it is a striking coincidence how many of these same individuals were raised up in the Christian tradition from their youth. The claim that the spirit of the Christian god somehow "moves" in minds of believers, simply does not ring true, and all it has going for it is personal testimony, i.e., an unsupportable claim. Unfortunately, it reduces the Christian claim to the same level as other religious claims: the believer is unable to show how one can reasonably distinguish between what he calls "God" and what he may merely be imagining." - http://bahnsenburner.blogspot.com/2007/06/problem-of-saul.html
The problem of Saul of Tarsus is a throne in the side of Christianity that points to one of its many fatal flaws, Christianity's epistemological blindness. How can another person reliably distinguish any difference between what the Christian believes Yahweh-Jesus to be and what they imagine Yahweh-Jesus to be? I'm of the opinion that there is no difference between Christian belief and Christian imagination because God is imaginary.
Thank you all for your comments. Being in the middle of exams I can't really get caught up right now in long discussions of why God doesn't reveal the evidence that each person feels they are entitled to, but I will say that I agree the combined problems of evil and hiddenness, especially as articulated by Schellenberg in "Wisdom to Doubt" are quite potent. Not belief-breaking potent, but certainly worthy of further discussion. All I wanted to do in my post was set the record straight on one particular claim which I often hear but which completely lacks evidential support. Richard Carrier took a similar approach when debating Licona and Habermas on the resurrection and he didn't do any better than robert_b did. The fact is that reports of miracles and Jesus appearances certainly did not come to an abrupt halt at 11:59pm of the last day of the apostolic age! There are plenty of reports down to the present day. Again I stress, these reports must be carefully scrutinized. I am no more tolerant of wishful thinking among Christians than among atheists.
P.S. My avatar is from a famous icon, "God the Architect", which I chose because it nicely illustrates the harmony I find between faith and reason. Nothing sinister, and I'm definitely not an impostor, whatever that means!
JD Walters wrote "but I will say that I agree the combined problems of evil and hiddenness, especially as articulated by Schellenberg in "Wisdom to Doubt" are quite potent. Not belief-breaking potent"
Correction JD. You should have wrote "delusion-breaking" instead of the phrase "belief-breaking" since within the Christian worldview there does not exist a way to distinguish any difference between what the Christian believes God to be and what they imagine as God. The fact that personal religious or paranormal experiences cannot be accounted as empirical evidence means that when a person claims they saw Bigfoot, Nessie, Vishnu or Jesus no knowledge of mythological beasties actually existing is acquired? Claims of personal religious experience are no more evidence than are claimed sightings of Yeti or the abominable snowman. But if unsupported anecdotal claims of sighting or "experiencing" do constitute evidence, then JD and all his fellow co-religionists have a burden of proof to debunk the "evidences" of unsupported anecdotal claims of sighting or "experiencing" of all the other religions and their purported miracles as well as numerous other paranormal claims.
Please consider "The Problem of Saul" by Dawson Bethrick found at http://bahnsenburner.blogspot.com/2007/06/problem-of-saul.html
The problem is why does not Yahweh-Jesus appear to each and every person in a way that is unmistakable and totally convincing as only an alleged Omnipotent being could? Why is it that Yahweh-Jesus only is seen by religious crazies? Why is it that Jesus allegedly appeared to Saul of Tarsus to convince him to convert when Saul had probably already been exposed to those who claimed to have seen the resurrected Christ, especially when Saul was the enemy of Christianity? Consider that Yahweh-Jesus is defined as a being that is completely fair and just as well as morally perfect. How is it fair, just and moral for Yahweh-Jesus to be hidden from the all humanity when it would be no effort at all for it to appear to all people everywhere with its message? Being defined as omnipotent, it could easily appear on all television, cable, radio, and internet screens simultaneously, or Jesus could appear as a Docetic aprarition to the UN General Assembly and all governmental legislative bodies around the world with his message. Why does Jesus not do so? The most likely answer is that Jesus does not exist. The non-existence of Jesus has great explanatory power (unlike Christianity); it is conservative with no ad-hoc assumptions (unlike Christianity); it is very simple (unlike Christianity), and it best fits the actual empirical evidence we do have (unlike Christianity). Occam's razor cuts JD's case off.
Here is my explanation of why Jesus does not appear: God is testing us; that is, God is testing out faith.
When I worked with vacuum tubes in electronics back in the sixties and seventies, I used a tube tester to check to see if the tube was good. You would plug the tube into the tester and push “TEST” and the pointer on the scale would read “Bad” “?” “Good”. Since I had no knowledge whether or not a tube was good or bad, I had to use a tube tester. And if the tube tester could not decide, it would read the feared "?"!
But then, if God is “testing us” God Himself does not really have total knowledge and thus, He must test us.
I think I just apologetically screwed up here.
What about: It's Jesus that's testing us? In that, Jesus does not appear to anyone today because Jesus is testing us! Will that one fly?
20 comments:
Oh that poor soul. Clearly he has fallen under the influence of satan and now he'll burn in hell for eternity. I'm gonna pray that Jesus can touch his heart and make him see the folly of his ways before it's too late.
I’m sure he was under demonic control at the time he denounced Christ. Yes, the demon of sanity!
yes, emo - I'm sure your profound words will motivate Jesus to get out of his easy chair in order to show this man "the light." Who is the boss of this relationship? Can't Jesus do it because it would be the right thing to do, or does he need you begging him to do right?
It would be nice to read/hear more about Mr. Semes' experiences. He seems to have little bitterness or harsh feelings toward believers and their faith despite how he felt he was treated. Nice article!
Derek, you just don't 'get it'. You have to open your heart to the Lord to let his light and love shine through! Clearly Mr. Seme's shut the door to his heart. I'm gonna pray for you right now to ask Jesus to lighten your spirit and open your heart. Let me know if it worked and you feel his presence.
I'm still waiting....
You're right, though. I just don't "get it." For 25 years I haven't "got it." I really tried for a long time and it never came. Like many people with perspective on this I read scripture, I prayed hard, and I worked hard at maintaining a front of believing until one day Jesus would speak to my heart. The silence was deafening. Maybe you could tell me the objective sensation I am to look out for.
Here is a man (Semes) with years of intimate scriptural knowledge and who honestly worked for and gave his all to this god. Does this god not think highly enough of his agents or their dedication to him that he would allow them to be swayed by anti-god? Sounds like this god's love shines dimly onto the hearts of man.
Why doesn't Jesus come to the hearts of those who have never heard the Christian story through men? I mean outside of the patriarchs, of course. I have yet to hear a reasonably credible story in modern times where somebody with no knowledge of Abraham's god spontaneously gained such knowledge.
IMO, Mr. Semes has left the door ajar. He has merely found a more responsive and responsible focus for his energy and kind heart.
emo,
If Mr. Semes opens his heart, all his blood will spurt out. In a short time he won't feel anything, because he'll be dead from loss of blood. Then, what will Jesus do for him?
Emodude:
Did you happen to pray for me as well? Because I felt something.
Oh, wait... Nope -- it was just gas.
--
Stan
emodude: According to the Gospel accounts, Jesus demonstrated that he had indeed resurrected from the dead by appearing to his followers. Later, according to Acts, Jesus appeared to Saul to demonstrate he was alive and ascended. The Bible tells us that Yahweh is not a respecter of persons and that it is the will of Yahweh that all be saved. Now if Jesus had to appear to those people to prove he was alive an resurrected,
"Why doesn't Jesus appear to everyone and prove that he is resurrected, just like he appeared to Paul? There is nothing to stop Jesus from materializing in your kitchen tonight to have a personal chat with you. And if you think about it, Jesus really does need to appear to each of us. If Paul needed a personal visit from Jesus to know that Jesus was resurrected, then why wouldn't you?
It is an important question for the following reasons:
* We are told by the Bible that Jesus appeared to hundreds of people.
* We therefore know that it is OK for Jesus to appear to people -- it does not take away their free will, for example -- because it was OK for Jesus to appear to hundreds of other people.
* We know that it would be easy for Jesus to appear to everyone all through history, since Jesus is all-powerful and timeless.
* We know that, if Jesus did reappear to everyone, it would be incredibly helpful. We could all know, personally, that Jesus is resurrected and that Jesus is God. If Paul (and all the other people in the Bible) needed a personal visit to know that Jesus was resurrected, then why not you and me?
* Yet, we all know that Jesus has not appeared to anyone in 2,000 years.
In other words, there is nothing stopping Jesus from appearing to you, and several good reasons for him to appear.
In addition, Jesus promises that he will appear to you. All that we have to do is pray to Jesus like this: "Dear Jesus, please appear to us, as you did to Paul and the 500 brethren, so that we can see the evidence of your resurrection. In your name we pray, amen." Here is what Jesus has promised us in the Bible:
Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:
Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
In John chapter 14:14:
Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.
In Matthew 18:19:
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Jesus is actually in our midst. So he is right here already, supposedly. Yet when we pray to him to physically materialize, as he did to hundreds of others, nothing happens.
Isn't it odd that Nothing happens, given the fact that Jesus promises us that something will happen? Isn't it odd that Nothing happens when, supposedly, Jesus is right here with us already, and materialization would be trivial for him? Isn't it odd that Nothing happens when, supposedly, Jesus was happy to appear to hundreds of others? " http://www.godisimaginary.com/i50.htm
But Jesus won't appear to anyone who prays hard and faith believing even when such appearances would be in accordance with the will of Yahweh and the promises of answered prayer. Jesus allegedly appeared to Saul(Paul), but not to Semes or to countless others. The most likely explanation is that Yahweh and Jesus are imaginary.
Hey emodude,
You are most certainly kidding aren't you? You are doing a good imitation of an evangelical but what is the difference between a good spoof and a real Christian belief? What's the point?
On the chance that you are being serious let me translate for you. "Open your heart" means gullibly believe religious nonsense without any shred of evidence or don't let reason and reality get in the way of what you would like to believe or wished were real.
I doubt that this guy will “open his heart” after being immersed in Christianity for so many years and finally taking an honest look at where it had gotten him and where it was leading him. What led him to forsake his faith was opening his mind. He finally faced the truth and was honest enough and had enough integrity to accept the verdict. I’m happy for him although the adjustment to a new life and a new way of thinking will take some getting used to.
You might try being truthful with yourself. It is very liberating.
Wow, I had more takers than I thought. I was just gonna string Derek along for a while ;)...
Fine, you guys are right. I deny the holy spirit! I feel liberated!
Emo, being familiar with earlier comments, I knew where you were heading...but I really enjoyed the reactions from others. Thanks for the fun!
And being a former pastor my own self, I can say that liberation takes on a whole new meaning when one finally admits to oneself and others that there is no god, no need for religion, and this "church" crap is really as insane, ludicrous and irrelevant as one struggled to deny for almost a quarter of a century. Whoo...that felt good!
I usually don't participate in these silly comment exchanges (I say this to the shame of both the atheists and the Christians), but I feel I have to set the record straight on something which atheists continually harp on without any evidence whatsoever.
Robert_b claims that "we all know that Jesus has not appeared to anyone in 2,000 years"
There are several wierd things about this statement epistemologically coming from an atheist (does this presume that we KNOW that he HAS appeared to some people 2000 years ago?), but I want to focus on the claim itself, which is simply NOT true. There have been countless reports of dominical appearances since the times of the early Church, extending into the modern period. Philosopher Philip Wiebe has documented and analyzed 30 particularly impressive cases in his book "Visions of Jesus". Now from an atheist perspective they are just that, reports. But then again, so are the New Testament appearances. The point is that the question which atheists so often ask, i.e. "Why doesn't Jesus appear to anyone else?" is either question begging (if you claim to KNOW that Jesus has never appeared to anyone) or evidentially wrong. There are many reports of Jesus having appeared to many other people, which of course have to be scrutinized with all the available tools of critical thought (again, see Wiebe's book). So please stop parroting that silly challenge.
JD, nice to have you here, but remember, not all atheists can be stereotyped like you just did. My question is this: Why does Jesus not convince me of the truth if he knows what it would take to do so?
Any suggestions?
JD Walters, I checked out your blog profile, and must say your picture sure looks like Jesus himself (icon noted). So, technically and as a atheist, I can say I have seen Jesus myself and now, again (as an atheist), I can say that I now know Jesus exists and all atheists only need to checkout this iconic picture to KNOW Jesus is still appearing to all the earth after 2,000 years (Just as the Greek Orthodox claim about their icons). After all, the Orthodox claim icons have powers of their own and there have been reports of weeping icons in Mexico!
More to the point, the funny thing about this is that Jesus ONLY appears to the already believing soul and never to the agnostic or atheist.
You stated: “I usually don't participate in these silly comment exchanges (I say this to the shame of both the atheists and the Christians), but I feel I have to set the record straight on something which atheists continually harp on without any evidence whatsoever.”
I don’t know if you are a member of some Orthodox Church that values icons (Non Catholic), but I discussed St. George killing the dragon with the Greek priest here in Greenville (St. George Greek Orthodox Church) and he believes in dragons as much as he believes in Jesus. I did visit his Greek Orthodox Church and I did see a holy icon of St. George slaying a snaked necked, bat winged dragon (the reason George was made a saint) and now I too can say that this old atheist now believes in dragons, Jesus, St. George and the miracles of holy icons!
"Fine, you guys are right. I deny the holy spirit! I feel liberated!"
Did you have to take a shower to wash off the smarm after your impersonation of a Jeebusbot?
Hey you turd flinger and unpardonable sin committer, now I'm hesitant to respond to JD Walters comment because he might be an imposter too. I don't want to use up all my ammo for target practice.
Oh well, I'll respond just in case.
JD, just because there are reports of sightings doesn't in the slightest suggest they are real. The question should occur to you as to why the Christians see Jesus, the Christian Catholics see Mary and the Muslims see Mohammad, etc. On a related note, why do near death experiences follow the same cultural/religious trends of Christians seeing heaven and Muslims seeing paradise? This should cause you to consider whether or not these reports are true or whether maybe there is some psychological and therefore natural explanation for some of these reports. Also, they could be complete fabrications. Why assume they are true?
As to the challenge. I would like to see Jesus appear to me but that wouldn't be enough to satisfy me. He would have a lot of explaining to do. He has a lot to answer for. In other words, if there was a God that would not necessarily mean I would want anything to do with him.
Emo, I knew you would see it my way eventually ;) A win is a win is a win.....
I agree with JD that seeing a vision of Jesus is never going to be proof, especially to skeptics. But it does not categorically deny we could actually "prove" Jesus communicates with men. I think the question still begs to be answered, "Why doesn't the word of god come to the hearts of those who have never heard the Christian story through men?" We have no stories of somebody on the Tibetan plateau (or pre-Comlumbian Americas) inexplicably knowing the gospels or reciting the 10 commandments or knowing who begat who. We could ask if missionaries had been to the area or find out the availability of Christian books locally and authenticate the claim of revelation to a much larger extant than seeing an image.
To hear a story like that would put a dent in my skepticism. Instead, we can only illustrate how these stories are disseminated by the hands and mouths of mortal humans. One of these "accepted" accounts of divine revelation is the conversion of Saul/Paul. Unfortunately, we know that Paul was familiar enough with the Christian story to have been a persistent persecutor. God may have appeared to him or given him information, but he likely knew enough of the belief system to fabricate his own gospel stories.
Hello JD Walters. Thanks for noticing the stuff I quoted from http://www.godisimaginary.com The argument there against god and Christian belief is a blend of the arguments from evil and the hiddeness of God. While its a little long winded, its worth the time.
But the cite I lifted from page 50 makes an excellent point about the problem of Saul (later Paul). Saul was persecuting the early Christians, some of whom may have been alleged eyewitnesses to the alleged resurrected Christ. Their direct testimony was not sufficient to convince Saul that Jesus had indeed resurrected. This prompts a question. Why, since Yahweh-Jesus is purportedly not a respecter of persons and treats all fairly and justly, and why if it is the will of Yahweh-Jesus that all be saved, and why if the direct testimony of alleged eyewitnesses to the resurrected Christ was insufficient to convince Saul, would Yahweh-Jesus appear to Saul on the road to Damascus but not to each and every person in such a way as to be completely convincing? It might be argued that Yahweh-Jesus is sovereign and under no obligations. That does not address the question, for it is the desire of Yahweh-Jesus' to bring about a particular end not any obligation that is in question. Allegedly, Yahweh-Jesus created existence. If so then why would Yahweh-Jesus not reasonably and logically conform its actions to the principle of final causation, that is the desired ends determines the means whereby such ends are obtained. Saul was a hostile enemy of Christianity. Yet Yahweh-Jesus allegedly choose to directly reveal itself to Saul but not to John Loftus or Semes. If it is the will of Yahweh-Jesus that Loftus and Semes believe, why is it that sufficient compelling evidence for the predicated dogmas is not provided? This is not in conformity to the principle of final causation. Perhaps it may be the case, if assuming Yahweh-Jesus actually exists, that Yahweh-Jesus does not desire all people to be saved. If the doctrine of predestination stipulated by Paul in Romans ch.9 obtains, then the failure of Jesus to appear would be explained. But then Yahweh-Jesus would be unjust, despite Paul's appeal to Yahweh-Jesus' alleged sovereignty. If Yahweh-Jesus is unjust, then it cannot be the most appropriate object of worship and hence cannot be God.
Dawson Bethrick at the bahnsenburner.blogspot.com, Incinerating Presuppositionalism blog wrote: "But if such a being did exist and it wanted men to believe in it and accept its sacrificed son as their Lord and Savior, what better way to accomplish this end than to reveal itself in an obvious way before them, just as the book of Acts says it did for Saul of Tarsus?
The objection solidly rests on what Christians should be more than willing to take as biblical precedent, and, as mentioned above, upon the principle of final causation: a desired end determines the most fruitful and surefire means of achieving it. What we are expected to believe is that, instead of appearing before us as it allegedly did for Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus, the Christian god actually prefers to send fallible men armed with flimsy arguments and no objective evidence to go through the hit-or-miss motions dictated by Christ’s “great commission.” This, we are told to believe, is the preference of a loving god which does not play favorites. On top of this, believers themselves – the ones who come to us with these flimsy arguments and lack of evidence – claim that they were moved to belief by an invisible “Holy Spirit” which “worked” in them a faith and desire to know this god, quite different from Saul's experience. The biblical precedent of Saul’s conversion by means of a personal self-revelation of Jesus in empirical form remains confined to the pages of the storybook and is denied to those who exist today, regardless of whether or not they end up "believing." And while they claim, contrary to what we're supposed to believe about Saul of Tarsus, that their belief is the result of the moving of an invisible magic spirit which somehow influences their minds in some fundamental but poorly explained manner, it is a striking coincidence how many of these same individuals were raised up in the Christian tradition from their youth. The claim that the spirit of the Christian god somehow "moves" in minds of believers, simply does not ring true, and all it has going for it is personal testimony, i.e., an unsupportable claim. Unfortunately, it reduces the Christian claim to the same level as other religious claims: the believer is unable to show how one can reasonably distinguish between what he calls "God" and what he may merely be imagining." - http://bahnsenburner.blogspot.com/2007/06/problem-of-saul.html
The problem of Saul of Tarsus is a throne in the side of Christianity that points to one of its many fatal flaws, Christianity's epistemological blindness. How can another person reliably distinguish any difference between what the Christian believes Yahweh-Jesus to be and what they imagine Yahweh-Jesus to be? I'm of the opinion that there is no difference between Christian belief and Christian imagination because God is imaginary.
Thank you all for your comments. Being in the middle of exams I can't really get caught up right now in long discussions of why God doesn't reveal the evidence that each person feels they are entitled to, but I will say that I agree the combined problems of evil and hiddenness, especially as articulated by Schellenberg in "Wisdom to Doubt" are quite potent. Not belief-breaking potent, but certainly worthy of further discussion. All I wanted to do in my post was set the record straight on one particular claim which I often hear but which completely lacks evidential support. Richard Carrier took a similar approach when debating Licona and Habermas on the resurrection and he didn't do any better than robert_b did. The fact is that reports of miracles and Jesus appearances certainly did not come to an abrupt halt at 11:59pm of the last day of the apostolic age! There are plenty of reports down to the present day. Again I stress, these reports must be carefully scrutinized. I am no more tolerant of wishful thinking among Christians than among atheists.
P.S. My avatar is from a famous icon, "God the Architect", which I chose because it nicely illustrates the harmony I find between faith and reason. Nothing sinister, and I'm definitely not an impostor, whatever that means!
JD Walters wrote "but I will say that I agree the combined problems of evil and hiddenness, especially as articulated by Schellenberg in "Wisdom to Doubt" are quite potent. Not belief-breaking potent"
Correction JD. You should have wrote "delusion-breaking" instead of the phrase "belief-breaking" since within the Christian worldview there does not exist a way to distinguish any difference between what the Christian believes God to be and what they imagine as God. The fact that personal religious or paranormal experiences cannot be accounted as empirical evidence means that when a person claims they saw Bigfoot, Nessie, Vishnu or Jesus no knowledge of mythological beasties actually existing is acquired? Claims of personal religious experience are no more evidence than are claimed sightings of Yeti or the abominable snowman. But if unsupported anecdotal claims of sighting or "experiencing" do constitute evidence, then JD and all his fellow co-religionists have a burden of proof to debunk the "evidences" of unsupported anecdotal claims of sighting or "experiencing" of all the other religions and their purported miracles as well as numerous other paranormal claims.
Please consider "The Problem of Saul" by Dawson Bethrick found at http://bahnsenburner.blogspot.com/2007/06/problem-of-saul.html
The problem is why does not Yahweh-Jesus appear to each and every person in a way that is unmistakable and totally convincing as only an alleged Omnipotent being could? Why is it that Yahweh-Jesus only is seen by religious crazies? Why is it that Jesus allegedly appeared to Saul of Tarsus to convince him to convert when Saul had probably already been exposed to those who claimed to have seen the resurrected Christ, especially when Saul was the enemy of Christianity? Consider that Yahweh-Jesus is defined as a being that is completely fair and just as well as morally perfect. How is it fair, just and moral for Yahweh-Jesus to be hidden from the all humanity when it would be no effort at all for it to appear to all people everywhere with its message? Being defined as omnipotent, it could easily appear on all television, cable, radio, and internet screens simultaneously, or Jesus could appear as a Docetic aprarition to the UN General Assembly and all governmental legislative bodies around the world with his message. Why does Jesus not do so? The most likely answer is that Jesus does not exist. The non-existence of Jesus has great explanatory power (unlike Christianity); it is conservative with no ad-hoc assumptions (unlike Christianity); it is very simple (unlike Christianity), and it best fits the actual empirical evidence we do have (unlike Christianity). Occam's razor cuts JD's case off.
robert b
Here is my explanation of why Jesus does not appear: God is testing us; that is, God is testing out faith.
When I worked with vacuum tubes in electronics back in the sixties and seventies, I used a tube tester to check to see if the tube was good. You would plug the tube into the tester and push “TEST” and the pointer on the scale would read “Bad” “?” “Good”. Since I had no knowledge whether or not a tube was good or bad, I had to use a tube tester. And if the tube tester could not decide, it would read the feared "?"!
But then, if God is “testing us” God Himself does not really have total knowledge and thus, He must test us.
I think I just apologetically screwed up here.
What about: It's Jesus that's testing us? In that, Jesus does not appear to anyone today because Jesus is testing us! Will that one fly?
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