Wheeling and Dealing J-E-S-U-S! The 21 Century Religion Business


There are millions to be made in the Family Owned and Family Operated Religion Business. Pictured above is evangelist Joyce Myers' private family owned compound while billionaire preacher Kenneth Copeland owns his own private ministry jet port complete with three jets (the latest of which he paid over twenty million for).

With their tax free status along with protected speech (preaching) by the first amendment, these Family Religion Businesses with their CEO evangelists are alive and well especially in the United States where giving to the Lord is the evangelist himself since, once a evangelist becomes larger than life, he becomes a savior to the faithful who support the ministry. These religious cult figures are blessed by God with his or her own financial empire).

The foundation for the above had its start when Yahweh (now called “God“) chose to open and run his own family run religion business with a designated successor: His son, Jesus. However, due to conflicts beyond Jesus' control, his ministry (within 1 to 3 years) literally went belly up and ended. But the family business was "saved" by being re-invented by Paul and given a systematic theology which used the successful title of Christ as a franchised trade mark. With a little luck (and some help from the latter Roman Empire) Paul’s franchisees called Christians were able to drive out of business older religious traditions by stealing their concepts and then re-labeling them as "exclusive truths from God".

The following are just a few of today's top evangelist CEO's who have made it into the millionaire status with a few even now making it to the billionaire club:

Oral Roberts (Oral Roberts University) His family religion business successor: Son, Richard Roberts

Pat Robertson (700 Club) His family religion business successor: Son, Gordon Robertson

Billy Graham (The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association) His family religion business successor: Son, Franklin Graham and his family religion business successor: Son, William Franklin Graham IV

Jim Bakker (former PTL leader and now with his own evangelistic ministry) His family religion business successor: Son, Jamie Bakker

Jimmy Swaggart His family religion business successor: Son, Donnie Swaggart

Paul Crouch (Trinity Broadcasting Network founder and chairman) His family religion business successor: Son, Paul Crouch, Jr.

Kenneth Copeland (Kenneth Copeland Ministries) His family religion business successors: Wife, Gloria and Daughters

Bob Jones Sr., (Bob Jones University) His family religion business successor: Son, Bob Jones Jr., followed by his family religion business successor: Son, Bob Jones III, followed his by family religion business successor: Son, Stephen Jones.

Bob Schuller (Crystal Cathedral) His family religion business successor: Son, Robert Schuller, Jr.

The late Jerry Farwell (Thomas Roads Baptist Church / The Old Time Gospel Hour) His family religion business successor: Son, Jonathan Farwell

Charles Stanley (In Touch Ministries) His family religion business successor: Son, Andy Stanley

John Hagee (John Hagee Ministries) His family religion business successor: Son, Christopher Hagee

Benny Hinn (Faith healing Televangelist) His family religion business successor: Brother, Henry Hinn

If Christians want to argue that Christianity is true, they would do well to start their defense here based on the promise of "Storehouse Tithing" given to these rich evangelist as they are blessed by God (Malachi 3: 10).

41 comments:

DingoDave said...

There's GOLD in them thar pews!

DingoDave said...

The 'afterlife insurance' business seems to be booming there in the U.S of A.

Joe E. Holman said...

Harry, very nice article. But I'm just waiting for some Christer to be led of the lord to tell us, "But those are crooked TV preachers and they are just greedy!" as though we are supposed to be somehow more impressed by the preaching of the poorer versions of these deluded nutjobs who happen not to be able to afford their own jets.

(JH)

Harry H. McCall said...

Beginning with God himself, Christianity has mostly been a “father and son” business enterprise.

Remember, money is not evil, it's the love of money that's evil. If you love it, I'm pleading with you;
get rid of it! Jesus has promised to take care of you and Brother Copeland is fighting Satan big time now who has just raised the cost of jet fuel.

I'm planting my "seed faith" into Joyce Myers ministry and God will multiply it back a hundred times! Our Heavenly Father wants us all to partner in with some earthly evangelist and get rich.

Lets quote Scripture here:
And Jesus said: “If thy wallet offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee. For it is better to go though life broke than to let Rev. Copeland’s jet sit idle.”

Do I heard some "Amens"?

Jamie Steele said...

Harry,
Just to correct you on something.
Andy is not taking over for his Dad.

You may want to correct that.

Also while i will agree with you on some points guys like Charles Stanley and Jerry Falwell did nothing wrong.

People buy their books and messages on CD.
No different than what John and you guys do here. You just don't have a fourth of the following.

Ty said...

How can this problem be fixed? Right now it would be impossible to revoke all churches tax-exempt status, and I don't agree with that anyway. As a non-theist, I would like to people to come to their senses, but I'm not willing to create a war over it.

Anonymous said...

Jamie, you idiot. People donate millions to their enterprises as well as buying their books. And what Christian needs the estate that Joyce Myers has when there are so many people in need around the world? I do not get it at all. What about the saying that it's harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven? What about giving all your money to the poor and following Jesus? Surely there is something very hypocritical with having so much money in light of what Jesus said, and if that's the case, are these people true believers in the gospel? Can anyone trust what they say they believe?

Harry H. McCall said...

Jamie steele: “Just to correct you on something. Andy is not taking over for his Dad. You may want to correct that.
Also while i will agree with you on some points guys like Charles Stanley and Jerry Falwell did nothing wrong.”

Jamie, Charles Stanley is not retired or dead yet, but already Andy Stanley is “front and center” in dad’s ministry. I remember about 5 or 7 years ago Southern Baptist Charles Stanley emphatically stated on an “In Touch” teaching sermon that marriage was Christ’s choice for the family and ANY married couple who divorced and one or both spouses remarried, they would be committing adultery. Within 2 years Charles Stanley himself was divorced. Although he has not remarried, my atheistic married will / has out lasted this pious preacher’s marriage!

Charles Stanley sold Am-Way products and used his influence in religion to go “Direct”.
His son would win out over anyone else who tried to take over from any aging Charles’ place, just as Jonathan Farwell would beat out any preacher contender; after all, these are the Stanley and Fawell dynasties!

I remember back in the late 80’s the news media asking Billy Graham if his son Franklin was going to take over his ministry. Billy responded that family had nothing to do with it, but “God himself would set apart my next successor“. Well, God last name must be “Graham” as he set apart no only Franklin Graham, but now God has even set apart William Franklin Graham IV, Billy’s grandson!

Jamie, if Kenneth Copeland and Joyce Myers supports thought they were doing anything wrong or were “out of God’s will” their ministries rich incomes would dry up in months. They are rich because God is rewarding them for being in his will.

Pat and Gordon Robertson have investments in diamond mines in Africa and were highly criticized for it when the movie “Blood Diamond” was released.

Kenneth Copeland has investments in oil, real estate, cattle, stocks and many other secular things. This is how you “step out on faith” and trust God who will provide for you.

Hey, it's just like the joke by Drow Ranger about the man during a flood on the roof of his house. God gave these evangelist dumb faithful followers to make them rich.

The problem with all the above rich ministries is exactly where does the tax free ministry end and the personal wealth begin?

When Rev. Copeland got caught using his ministries jet to fly to Vail, Colorado for a skiing trip, he simply claimed he paid for the fuel and use of the jet out of his own pocket…what a joke! I sure Jesus told him to take some time off and have some fun.

If Jesus would buy me a Lear Jet, I just may preach the Gospel too!

As the lyrics to the song by the late Janet Joplin goes: “Oh Lord, won’t you by me a Mercedes-Benz.”

Jamie Steele said...

Harry,
THis statement is wrong.

Jamie, Charles Stanley is not retired or dead yet, but already Andy Stanley is “front and center” in dad’s ministry.

They have nothing to do with each others ministries. Andy started his own church and ministry. Get it right. Maybe John was meaning to call you and idiot for saying such an unfounded and researched statement as this.

Also, I don't listen to, read, support, or care about Joyce Myer, Copeland, Robertson... etc..

But Charles and Jerry did nothing wrong.
As a matter of fact, when Jerry died he left somewhere between 24 and 27 million to pay of Liberty Universitys debts. Maybe you could do a post on it.

Also, John - I will not call you an idiot. I respect men that wear hats.
But Jesus never told every person He came in contact with to sell all they have and give to the poor. Where are the poor in the US anyway. I have been to the Philippines and ministered to poor folk.
We are a blessed nation, most of our poor here would be rich in other countries...

Also, John the statement about the rich getting into heaven deals with their trust in riches. Just like some trust in intellect and reasoning. What are you trusting in John. Maybe you are more like the rich man than you think.

Anonymous said...

jamie, sometimes when I see someone who ignorantly and purposely slants his case in one direction I blurt out the idiocy; that's just me. Try not to do this and I won't do that, okay?

Do you or don't you think these preachers have too much money for the message they are commissioned to preach given the needs of the very people who support them with gifts, much less the other needy people in the world?

Jeffrey Crawford said...

John,
I enjoy this blog and agree with many conclusions - more on that later. I am in the deconversion process myself and would love to contribute at some point. However, I'm not sure what the point of this particular post is. By the way, this is not an attack on anything but the reasoning being used to support a philosophical position.
Many charlatans have been exposed elsewhere, of that, there is no doubt. There are definite cases of people who have tried to use Jesus to make money. I agree with this.
I would even go so far as to agree with what you posted about the need for a pastor to live like Myers as being something that seems out of touch with the attributed teachings of Christ.
Yet, it seems to me that your thinking on the subject is a bit skewed. Hypothetically speaking, if a Christian tithes according to the 10 percent paradigm, gives to the poor in excess of that and is involved in their community, how then is it completely wrong for them to have wealth - as it is defined today?
The Wesleyan definition of giving everything that one has beyond the bare necessity is a practice rather than a decree, so I'm unsure of the grounds for your objection.
Also, if one is to use the arguments of Christ in the current manner, wouldn't it also be incorrect to have a house, a family, etc.? Yet who would justify that position today?
Using a contrary example, Jesus is not recorded as passing judgment on Zaccaheus for being wealthy rather he is called to no longer cheat, steal or swindle when he collects. Zaccaheus promises then to be generous, no longer swindle and to pay back double, etc. to those whom he has wronged. Nothing further is recorded as being required of him.
Therefore, I'm not sure that the implications that you have made about Christians with money in general is correct.

Harry H. McCall said...

Jamie Steele replied: “Jamie, Charles Stanley is not retired or dead yet, but already Andy Stanley is “front and center” in dad’s ministry.
They have nothing to do with each others ministries. Andy started his own church and ministry. Get it right. Maybe John was meaning to call you and idiot for saying such an unfounded and researched statement as this.”

Jamie, your statement about Andy Stanley and Dad, Charles Stanley that “…have nothing to do with each others ministries.” Is totally wrong! You either don’t watch Charles Stanley or you need to “Tell the truth and shame the devil!”

I have personally seen Andy fill in for Charles Stanley at least on three different occasions teaching on his In Touch Ministries program and that’s base on what little I’ve watch the program. Jamie, exactly why do I not see some other evangelist filling in for Charles Stanley? Why is it only been Andy? Because Charles is sending a message.

Jamie: “But Charles and Jerry did nothing wrong.
As a matter of fact, when Jerry died he left somewhere between 24 and 27 million to pay of Liberty Universitys debts. Maybe you could do a post on it.”

This is the point of my post! If you can leave “somewhere between 24 and 27 million to pay of Liberty Universitys debts.” And still have millions left over for the family and grand kids, your are a hell of a lot richer than the average Christian. And just look at the physical shape of Jerry Farwell when he died! Talk and about the sin of gluttony! And you claim he did nothing wrong…hell, he ate himself to death!

Jamie, the only thing Charles Stanley and Jerry Farwell have in common is that they are both Southern Baptist (I know Farwell was independent at on time, but I believe he either join or was highly supportive of the “Page Patterson type” conservative Convention).

I would assume you are a Southern Baptist.

Anonymous said...

Jeffrey, thanks for visiting and commenting.

In the first place I wish people would be able to recognize who wrote something on this blog. Harry McCall wrote the original post, not me.

Still, you addressed what I said in a comment. Let me answer.

I understand how Christians gerrymander around the texts, I really do. But that’s what they do. They do it with Genesis 1, with women in the church, with the parousia of Jesus, and so on and so on. It’s like playing with the Ginger Bread man, who taunts us with these words: “Can’t catch me…”

Besides, there is nothing in the NT that demands Christians must give a tithe. Of that I’m sure. There is no percent at all that must be given except to give till it hurts, like the earliest Christians in Acts 2-5, Paul in II Corinthians 9, the rich young ruler, and the widow and her two mites. "Give till it hurts" is basically the NT motto. That’s all. Give to help. Share the load. Help others who need it. Use worldly wealth to gain riches in heaven. This is a new standard, a non-legalistic one by comparison to the OT. So with this new standard, how do Joyce Myers and the others fare by this standard? That’s all I’m asking. And it would seem obvious to me that they do not fare thee well.

There are serious Christians who have chosen to live austere lives because that’s how they read the NT. I think they are right. Joyce Myers is wrong. But with gerrymandering like most exegetes are want to do, I won’t win this argument with all of them. In fact, I usually don’t even bother telling Christians what they should believe. This is the rare exception. I usually tell Christians to go to a room, fight it out among themselves, tell me who won the debate, and I’ll debunk the viewpoint that wins. So I continue to wait with no results yet, because they never come to a consensus.

Harry H. McCall said...

Jeffrey, who would you consider the truer Christian: Mother Teresa or Joyce Myers? Kenneth Copeland or Albert Schweltzer?

Jeffery, do you understand the reasons behind why the Catholic Church has monastic orders especially the Benedictine Order?

I see you are in Wilmore, Ky. I attended classes at Asbury Seminary back in 1975.

Jamie Steele said...

Harry,
You are still wrong about your point.

Admit it.

Andy just preached for his Dad. His church is way bigger than Charles' anyway.
Andy has churches in North Point, Buckhead and Browns Bridge.
Oversees the very successful Catalyst Conf..

All I am say is if you are gonna make such claims do a little investigation.

He Doesn't need his Dads ministry

You are wrong!! Admit it! Harry why is it so hard for you.. You are a funny man......

Also a man like Jerry that would help pay a University's debt is to be admired.

He has helped many people with the Elim home, mission work, etc.....

Hopefully you guys will do the same when you sell your Atheist kool aid.

Harry H. McCall said...

Jamie, the day Charles Stanley states on his “In Touch Ministry” who his successor is, only then will I admit I’m wrong. I’ve asked around and no one I’ve talked to ever heard of Andy Stanley. When is he on national TV? Why has Charles NEVER had anyone other than Andy fill in for him? Until you can show me proof that Charles has chosen another evangelist to take his place, then, by default, Andy will run his dad’s religion business if Charles reties or dies.

Jerry Farwell got rich off tithes and offerings. Hell, he should give back to the instruction that made him rich! He sure destroyed Jim Bakker’s PTL when he was entrusted with helping to straighten it out. He was driven by greed in the PTL case. He destroyed it (burying hundreds of copies of Jim and Tammie’s books under dirt) so his greedy ministry could be sure it was dead once and for all. If he was even half as good as you claim, why not help out the trusting poor faithful who got cheated? Farwell is to be blamed for Breach of Trust in the PTL case. He hurt tens of thousands who invested in PTL. Bastard!

I’ll be up font with you. I’ve got no use for the Southern Baptist Convention. They fired all their women professors from their seminaries based only on gender.

The last time I made a personal call to the Sunday School Board in Nashville, Tenn. to asked some PhD in New Testament (who was the editor) about a textual issue in the Sunday School Quarterly, he had no idea that the text rating was given a “C” in the United Bible Societies Greek New Testament. So, when I asked him why use it, his reply was: “It sounds like something Jesus would say.” A lot of Gnostic literature “sounds like something Jesus would say.” Duh!

Secondly, I had to write Hershel Hobbes back in the 80’s a letter to get him to correct an error in the Baptist Faith and Massage. He did know the difference between Literary and Textual Criticism! Again, duh! Maybe a woman can do a better job if they were not firing them!

My statement stands as written. Farwell was filthy rich off tithes and offerings and Andy will be Charles successor in their family run business!

Jamie Steele said...

Harry,

You are a strange man. You obviously don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Maybe you should leave the post to the others. At least they make some sense.

Sorry Harry but you are making this blog site a C rated blog.

DingoDave said...

To Jamie Steele and all other wealthy 'fairweather' Christians, please read the following verses carefully.

Luke.12
[16] And he told them a parable, saying, "The land of a rich man brought forth plentifully;
[17] and he thought to himself, `What shall I do, for I have nowhere to store my crops?'
[18] And he said, `I will do this: I will pull down my barns, and build larger ones; and there I will store all my grain and my goods.
[19] And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; take your ease, eat, drink, be merry.'
[20] But God said to him, `Fool! This night your soul is required of you; and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?'
[21] So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God."
32] "Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
[33] Sell your possessions, and give alms; provide yourselves with purses that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys.
[34] For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Matt.6
[19] "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal,
[20] but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal.
[21] For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
[24] "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

Matt.19
[23] And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
[24] Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Mark.10
[23] And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it will be for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!"
[24] And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!
[25] It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Luke.3
[11] And he answered them, "He who has two coats, let him share with him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise."

Luke.14
[27] Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
[33] So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

Luke.16
[13] No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."
[14] The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all this, and they scoffed at him.
[15] But he said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts; for what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
[19] "There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.
[20] And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz'arus, full of sores,
[21] who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried;
[23] and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz'arus in his bosom.
[24] And he called out, `Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.'
[25] But Abraham said, `Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz'arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.

Matt.13
[44] "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up; then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
[45] "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls,
[46] who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

Acts.2
[44] And all who believed were together and had all things in common;
[45] and they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, as any had need.
[46] And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they partook of food with glad and generous hearts,
[47] praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.

Acts.4
[32] Now the company of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had everything in common.
[34] There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of what was sold
[35] and laid it at the apostles' feet; and distribution was made to each as any had need.

Acts.5
[1] But a man named Anani'as with his wife Sapphi'ra sold a piece of property,
[2] and with his wife's knowledge he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles' feet.
[3] But Peter said, "Anani'as, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land?
[4] While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
[5] When Anani'as heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear came upon all who heard of it.


These verses are unequivocal!
Jesus meant exactly what he said.
Jesus clearly commanded ALL his followers to sell everything they had, and donate the proceeds into a common purse for distribution among the other cult members according to their needs.
The Bible records that the earliest Christians did exactly what Jesus had commanded.
How many modern Chrisitians would be prepared to do the same thing, least of all the likes of Joyce Myers?
The story about Ananias and Sapphira was written specifically to scare the living daylights out of any new convert who even dared to think about holding anything back.
The expression 'the poor' clearly refers to the cult members themselves. The earliest Jerusalem Christians were known as the 'Ebionites' or 'The Poor Ones', and they lived the same kind of communist lifestyle that the New Testament records.
Jesus was under the delusion that the world was about to end. What Jesus was preaching has been refered to as an 'interim ethic', which was to be followed by all new converts during the time leading up to the imminent ushering in of 'the kingdom of God'.
Of course the world didn't come to an end, and the number of wealthy new converts who were prepared to sell all their possessions inevitably dwindled, and the funds eventually dried up.
Most modern day Christians simply cannot accept this, so they fall all over themselves trying to find excuses as to why Jesus didn't really mean what he said, and they ignore the obvious reasons why the earliest Christians lived the kind of lifestyle they did.
Others have managed to achieve the same objective by simply developing an incredible blind spot towards these verses. But they do so at their own peril.

Luke.6
[46] "Why do you call me `Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?

Matt.7
[13] "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
[14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Luke.13
[24] "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

I strongly suspect that Joyce Myers and others like her who have followed the wide and easy path, will find themselves numbered among the goats on judgement day.

Jamie Steele said...

dingodave,

Sounds to me like you believe in God and a judgment day. Way to go!

Trou said...

"I strongly suspect that Joyce Myers and others like her who have followed the wide and easy path, will find themselves numbered among the goats on judgement day."

I'm sure you mean "if" there was a judgment day. Of course, there isn't going to be one but it's fun to poke Christians with the same book that they claim to believe in so furvently.

Well done, dingodave.

Yvette said...

Yea, those are real Christian values. Worship the rich and kick the poor into the gutters.

Harry H. McCall said...

Jamie: “You are a strange man. You obviously don't have a clue what you are talking about.”

I would say you are the typical Jesus loving dumb Southern Baptist.

Dumb in that your Quarterly used the pericope of the Woman caught in adultery (John 7:53 - 8:11) as inspirited scripture. I over shot the reading with a “C”; it did not even make a “D” reading. As reported by the late Bruce Metzger in “A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament” 2nd ed., 1994 “Although the Committee was unanimous that the pericope was originally no part of the Fourth Gospel, in deference to the evident antiquity of the passage a majority decided to print it” p. 189.

And your dumb PhD Southern Baptist editor told me: “It sounds like something Jesus would say.” Excellent textual reasoning!

So you think I “obviously don't have a clue what you (I’m) are talking about.” Put your brain where your key board is; prove me wrong!

Prove me wrong that all women professors were not fired from any class that taught men at all Southern Baptist seminaries simply because of gender! Another damn bastard is Page Patterson and the chauvinistic nut that‘s president of Southern Seminary: Albert
Mohler.

Prove me wrong about anything I said about Charles Stanley or fat-ass Jerry Farwell who once stated that H.I.V. / AIDS is God punishment on the homosexual community. Tell that to the millions of babies born from HIV infected parents in Africa (of whom most will face the same death as their parent) have a Jesus who “loves the little children of the world“! Hey, what a great and awesome God you serve! He kills more babies every year in Africa though hunger and disease than abortions ever could. Some great god of love!

I’m not paying you though tithes and offerings (as your parishioners do) to preach to me; and Amen to that.

If you don’t think I know what I’m talking about; then put up some facts or shut up!

NightFlight said...

>>"But Charles and Jerry did nothing wrong.
As a matter of fact, when Jerry died he left somewhere between 24 and 27 million to pay of Liberty Universitys debts. Maybe you could do a post on it."

My question is where the hell did he get "between 24 and 27 million" to begin with??

lee said...

"My question is where the hell did he get "between 24 and 27 million" to begin with??"

Liberty university had several large life insurance policies on Falwell. That is most likely where this money came from.

My question is if you have 30 million in life insurance policies on an individual and he is preaching the imminent return of Christ, isn't that a little hypocritical?

Jamie Steele said...

Harry,
"Prove me wrong about anything I said about Charles Stanley..."

Already have. You use circular reasoning in a bad way. Typical.

You also said
"Tell that to the millions of babies born from HIV infected parents in Africa (of whom most will face the same death as their parent) have a Jesus who “loves the little children of the world“! Hey, what a great and awesome God you serve! He kills more babies every year in Africa"

How do people in Africa get AIDS Harry--- Did God give them AIDS?

IS that what you are saying.
That is like a person being struck by a drunk driver blaming God for the accident.

You also said "I’m not paying you though tithes and offerings (as your parishioners do) to preach to me; and Amen to that."

DAng it! I was about to send you tithing envelopes.

Harry I hope you have a good day. But please come to the point that you admit you are wrong....
It is ok to be misinformed and admit it.

Harry H. McCall said...

Jamie: “Harry I hope you have a good day. But please come to the point that you admit you are wrong.... It is ok to be misinformed and admit it.”

You NEVER addressed the firing of ALL women professors at ALL Southern Baptist seminaries who taught men. Was that God’s will?

Jamie, if Satan is not a god and can not create viruses such as HIV, then who other than your God did? In our legal system the person or persons who caused a chain reaction wreck or a major fire that destroys property and lives is held responsible for ALL the damages.

Your God created all things according to Genesis. Whether it “mutates” or not into some highly deadly virus, God is the primary cause of this chain reaction and is the only one to blame since he had fore-knowledge also!

Regards, HM

Jeffrey Crawford said...

John,
My fault on not differentiating between the author of the post and the author of the blog...
Also, if NOTHING else is ever said on this site, you nailed the PRACTICE of Christianity perfectly -- the incredibly annoying and frankly inchoate understanding and use of the one piece of "authority" they claim to have. How many times must it be expressed that you cannot pluck a verse here and there for the express purpose of making a fallacious point? THANK YOU for saying that...
Also, thanks for taking the post in the spirit it was written. I'm a Northern Indiana boy by birth myself and I really understand the Wesleyan and Lutheran theological interpretation of the practice of tithing - 2 different perspectives, I believe.
I would also agree that there are no mandates in the NT for specific tithing principles.
I guess I was also wanting to differentiate between the "average" Christian and the charlatan - of which I thoroughly believe Joyce Meyer to be. I have no use for her tripe or her "ministry".
So - I guess that answers Harry's question.
Also, I find it interesting that Mother Teresa stated that she went through a great crisis of faith - "a dark season of the soul".
Schweitzer or Copeland? Come on now. That's like asking who's better at golf -- Tiger Woods or me . Absolutely no comparison. Please don't take my post for a defense of the televangelist. You can throw the vast majority out the window and I'd help you.
But, even though I am what I would call - sorry for stealing the phrase here - an "intellectual atheist", I do have respect for people who are honestly attempting to abide by "Christian ideals" - as nebulous as that phrase is.
Thanks for the interaction!!

DingoDave said...

Jamie Steele wrote:

"Sounds to me like you believe in God and a judgment day. Way to go!"

Sorry to disappoint you Jamie but Trou is right, I don't believe that there will be a judgement day. I wrote that purely for literary effect (as I'm sure you had already guessed)

You sound like you are actually looking forward to a judgement day, when according to your religion, billions of human beings will consigned to an eternity of unspeakable suffering.
Are you one of those people who are looking forward to being able to witness the suffering of the damned like Trevor C. Johnson, who wrote that awfull master's thesis which Ed Babinski posted the other day?

By the way, what are your thoughts on the verses I quoted? I notice that you didn't comment on them. Are you one of those Christians who have developed an incredible blind spot towards them?
Do you believe that the gospel Jesus meant what he said, or do you believe that when he sternly commanded his followers to sell everything they owned, that he really meant something completely different? If so, then how do you explain the early Jerusalem Christian's communist lifestyle?

I would have thought that any genuine Bible believing Christian would not want to take any chances with their salvation. Do you realise what a risk you are running by disobeying Jesus' commands?

Jesus even warned his followers about the consequences of disobeying him.

Luke.6
[46] "Why do you call me `Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?

Matt.7
[21] "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
[22] On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
[23] And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'
[24] "Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock;
[26] And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand"

Should we call you Rocky, or Sandy Steele?

Jamie Steele said...

dingo

Thanks for all the Bible verses and nice picture.

Call me Rocky?

By the way Jesus only told one dude to give up his stuff and that was because his stuff had him.

The Bible verses you mention never talk about giving away everything and living in a tent.

They talk about rich people-- we are all rich compared to others in the world.

In America i have meet very few poor people.. I think dingo you must define poor as compared to the rest of the world.

In my county i have not meet one poor person. Our church gives to missions and supports mission work..

We just sent 2 mission team to Browning Montana to minister on an Indian Reservation.

We have also been to Gulfport Mississippi many many times to help rebuild home. The North Carolina Baptist Men have commited to re-build or build 300 homes. Harry Smith of the Early show did a special on their work .. They served over 1 million meals..

WE also give money to Habitat and work with Habitat once per month building homes for those whom are less fortunate.

I have been to the Philippines in On the Island of Mindanao in the city of Dipolog to do medical missions and we are not poor in AMerica. I personally saw poverty in this area..

But thanks for all the Bible verses I love to see them on this site.

Harry H. McCall said...

Jamie, for the third time: You NEVER addressed the firing of ALL women professors at ALL Southern Baptist seminaries who taught men. Was that God’s will?

If this is what Paul wanted and meant for women; maybe Page Patterson can use slaves also to do maintenance labor around the seminaries just as Paul wanted for faithful slaves to serve as unto Christ.

Jamie Steele said...

Harry,

I guess if Paige was the President of the Seminary he can do what he wants. I don't answer for Paige nor do I care what Paige does.

Paige is now at Southwestern. e-mail him he may respond...
It seems as if this is a major concern of yours...

Trou said...

Jamie,
It's nice that you can explain away the directness of the scriptures so easily. You probably believe it about as much as I do which is not at all. At this point it is just a way of assuaging your fears and apprehensions about life. The difference, though, is you seem smug about it even though you can't possibly know anything for certain.
This reminds me of a joke about an old man who looked to be as old as dirt. When asked as the reasons for his longevity he listed wine, women and fast cars. “Wow, who would have thought these to be responsible for such a long life?” Someone then asked, "How old are you anyway"? "28 years old", he said.
I say that because you act as if giving a little by a lot of people is an amazing thing. But as any televangelist con artist listed by Harry will tell you, it only takes a few dollars from a lot of people to get rich and stay rich.
But just think, if you really believed in the teachings of Jesus and followed them, how much more could be done. Just like the old young man who lived for the moment and shortened his life, you continue to squander your resources on temporal things while yammering about the importance of the eternal. So excuse me if I find your reasoning flawed and your excuses self serving.
It doesn't matter in the long run because we are all going to die but wouldn't it be better to cut the crap and just be who you are going to be rather than act as if you have the inside track to all that is good and important? Especially when it is clear you pick and choose only what is convenient for yourself.
By the way, you claim that Harry is wrong about the Stanleys but fail to comment on the other 12 dynasties that he listed. Is he wrong because you doubt his claim in one regard while ignoring the mountain of evidence that his main point is correct?

DingoDave said...

Jamie Steele wrote:

-"Call me Rocky?"

Judging from your response, I think that I'll stick with calling you Sandy if it's all the same to you.

-"By the way Jesus only told one dude to give up his stuff and that was because his stuff had him. The Bible verses you mention never talk about giving away everything and living in a tent."

I see that you HAVE developed an incredible blind spot towards those verses. Jesus did command his followers not to own private property.
What part of "So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple" are you struggling with Jamie?
And you still haven't addressed my question about why it was that the early Jerusalem Christians sold all that they had, and lived a communist lifestyle.
Do you think that they invented it out of thin air, or were they possibly acting on Jesus' instructions?

Matt.13
[44] "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up; then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
[45] "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls,
[46] who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

What do you think this parable means Jamie, if not that followers of Jesus are not supposed to own private property. I suspect that Jesus, were he alive today would probably view you as being a bit of a Pharisee.

Mark.10
[29] Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel,
[30] who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands... and in the age to come eternal life.

-"They talk about rich people-- we are all rich compared to others in the world."

My point exactly! Do you own more than one coat?

Luke.3
[11] And he answered them, "He who has two coats, let him share with him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise."

I suggest that you get a move on and start giving away some coats Jamie.

Matt.15
[8] "This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me"

-"In my county i have not meet one poor person. Our church gives to missions and supports mission work."

Then you are a disciple of Paul, not Jesus. Have you considered re-branding yourself, and calling yourself a Paulian, rather than a Christian?

-"But thanks for all the Bible verses I love to see them on this site."

It's a pity that you are prepared to give lip service to them, but not to actually follow them.

Unknown said...

jamie steel: Greetings.

You are living a lie and are deeply wrong about living in your sins that you rationalize away with your hermeneutic twisting of the plain sense of the text of the Bible. By violating these New Testament teachings of your God, Jesus Christ, you sin and blaspheme against your alleged God. Read the plain meaning of the text. There is no hidden symbolic meaning within the words.

(a) "...none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up everything he has" (Luke 14:33);

(b) "If you want to be perfect, go and sell all you have and give the money to the poor and you will have riches in heaven" (Matt. 19:21);

(c) "Sell your possessions and give alms" (Luke 12:33);

(d) "But give what is in your cups and plates to the poor, and everything will be clean for you" (Luke 11:41);

(e) "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt,.... But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven.... for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" (Matt. 6:19-21);

(f) "How hardly shall they that have riches enter to the kingdom of God" (Mark 10:23);

(g) "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" (Matt. 19:23-24);

(h) A certain ruler told Jesus that he had obeyed all the commandments from his youth up. But, Jesus said, "Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me" (Luke 18:22, Mark 10:21),

(i) Paul said, "For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ" (Phil. 3:8 RSV)”

(j) Biblicists are not to judge others ("Judge not, that ye be not judged"--Matt. 7:1 and "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged, condemn not and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven"--Luke 6:37), despite the fact that judges, juries, voters, employers, teachers, etc. are constantly judging others.

(k) Believers are supposed to hate their parents and families when they follow Jesus ("If any man come to me, and not hate his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethern, and sister, yet, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple"--Luke 14:26).

(l) They are not to oppose evil ("But I say unto you, that ye resist not evil; but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also"--Matt. 5:39). If this were followed one might just as well abolish law enforcement.

(m) Believers are not to use violence ("Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword"--Matt. 26:52). The degree to which Christians have ignored this maxim would fill volumes.

(n) Biblicists are not allowed to call anyone "father" ("And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven"--Matt. 23:9). Not only is this rule ignored, but Catholicism uses "father" as a specific title.

(o) Christians are not supposed to plan or prepare. God will provide. If you love Jesus, you'll quite your job. ("Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or that ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on.... Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, not gather into barns; yet your heavenly father feedth them. Are ye not much better than they?"--Matt. 6:25-34 and Luke 12:22-31 inclusive).

(p) Lastly, Jesus, who clearly is of greater importance than Paul, said the Old Law was to remain in force until heaven and earth passed away and all is accomplished("For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven"--Matt. 5:18-19 RSV). Heaven and earth still exist and many prophecies are not yet fulfilled. Consequently, biblicists should still be following the Old Law. You
need to be an orthodox Hasidic/Pharisee Jew in order to obey Jesus.

From the things you wrote to the others, its plain you are a typical normal American Christian. You are not doing these things your Lord and Master and God, Jesus Christ has commanded you to do. Thus within a proper context (based on the plain sense of the texts) of Christianity you are living a lie and in sin.

Additionally, by rejecting the commandments of your so called God, you assert by your actions that its instructions are of no effect. This constitutes blasphemy.

Why is not your alleged Holy Spirit convicting you or these sins? As and evangelical Christian, do you not believe that the Holy Spirit of your God indwells the central core of emotions-intellect? What you doing is not at all expected under Christian theism, but it is just what is to be expected under naturalism and atheism. Your rationalizations for why your off the hook for the rules is strong evidence for atheism. Thanks for confirming my position.

Harry H. McCall said...

Thanks for the GREAT input Robert and Dingo!

From what I’ve read on this Blog, atheist know and “believe” the Bible much more than the pick and chose Christian evangelicals. This is the reason we are not Bible believing Christians.

I have been very impressed with the mental gymnastics used by Christian in comments on this blog just to keep their faith half way functioning.

We atheist need to continue using our Bibles, quoting Scripture and putting these “Christians” under conviction as to what Jesus REALLY said!

Now (as Billy Graham would state), “Every eye closed. Every head bowed. Ask yourself in prayer: ‘Lord Jesus, I have been deceiving myself in really being obedient to your Word! I have just been picking and choosing my Biblical deception. Lord Jesus please help me to understand my deception of selective readings of the Bible; your Word. Please help me to see this deception and the lies I have been telling myself.

Now:
Dear Jesus, please let me keep ALL your teachings in the Gospels or let me realize that I have denied your Word and its commandments and by doing so, help me to realize that I too am basically an atheist.” Amen

If you have prayed this pray and now realized your error and deception and realize you have not and can not kept all of Jesus’ commandments as stated in the Gospels, I want you to come forward with a comment on this blog.

We have trained atheists on this site waiting to deal with you and your heart and the deceptive lies you have been living by not being obedient to all of Jesus’ commandments.

If you have family or friends who are needing you, they will to wait as our trained DC staff prays with you and gives you some good reading material to help you in your new life.

May the real Jesus of the Gospels help you see the errors of your ways and then get in a good “Bible Believing” atheistic discussion blog every Sunday. Brother, we have a comment spot waiting just for you!

Brian said...

I'm not sure why this is a problem, atheists swindle people everyday in some fashion I'm sure, and seeing there is no God why can't pretending Christians swindle people to. I think its a smart angle seeing Christians are so stupid to believe the whole god thing anyway. If there is no afterlife penalty I say we live it up.

Trou said...

Brian said...
I'm not sure why this is a problem, atheists swindle people everyday in some fashion I'm sure, and seeing there is no God why can't pretending Christians swindle people to. I think it’s a smart angle seeing Christians are so stupid to believe the whole god thing anyway. If there is no afterlife penalty I say we live it up.

3:09 PM, June 28, 2008

I don’t appreciate your comment because this is the stereotypical meme that Christians recite as a reason why atheism is so dangerous. Maybe you are a Christian masquerading as an atheist spouting nonsense just to try to discredit non-believers.

See, we are social animals and have feelings that allow us to live together and thrive together. We need to be able to feel empathy, sympathy, love and on the other hand anger, and vengeance so as to be able to reciprocate kindness with the kind and cooperative people and cut off the abusers who would try to take advantage of others if possible.

Read a little evolutionary psychology, game theory, and take a look at how the billions of people live on this planet, most without believing in your brand of God. They all seem to live in a cooperative manner not too much different than we do. Also, a lot of people don't believe in gods at all and if this attitude you advocate were truly practiced then you would expect to find atheist crime rates to be higher than the average but we don't see that. Conversely we see that there are, in America, a higher percentage of believers in prison than nonbelievers.

If I'm wrong about you being a Christian then you need understand that most of us don’t believe that living it up includes swindling people and living hypocritical lives. If you think that’s an admirable life then don’t be surprised if you are despised in the same way that the televangelists are.

You are correct that there is no god to punish or condemn us but we need to be true to who we are. I am a person for whom personal integrity is necessary. Little things like being honest and helpful are necessary for my peace of mind. The flip side is that I can be very judgmental when I encounter the failings of others in these regards. I can't personally say, screw it, and ignore my personal nature by not concerning myself with other's feelings. Yet, for my further sanity, I must resist the urge to judge others with my personal standard.

I know Christians who live a much more sinful life than I think they should by taking advantage of others, cheating in small and sometimes great ways and not thinking a thing of it. I would not blame this on religion because we may have had our personalities set by the age of 5 or6. This is much too young an age to have had our personalities affected by a conscious acceptance of a god given moral code of behavior. My thought is that we are who we are from influences both genetic and social. So it would be wise not to make claims that conflate religion or lack thereof with morality.

DingoDave said...

Harry MacCall wrote:
"Do I heard some "Amens"?

I'm in for one one Harry. I think that you've just about summed it up in a nutshell.

Shygetz said...

jaimie steele said: By the way Jesus only told one dude to give up his stuff and that was because his stuff had him.

The Bible verses you mention never talk about giving away everything and living in a tent.


And these are the people who brought us Pascal's Wager? This much straight irony is caustic. The only other thing that comes close to this high a concentration of irony are the Christian Capitalists and prosperity Gospel preachers who can't read many of the verses listed above and see that Jesus clearly preached community socialism.

DingoDave said...

John Loftus wrote:

-"Surely there is something very hypocritical with having so much money in light of what Jesus said, and if that's the case, are these people true believers in the gospel? Can anyone trust what they say they believe?"

I've listened to Joyce Myers on a number of occasions (yes we even have her inflicted upon us here in Australia) and I don't recall ever hearing her quote the gospel Jesus. I've heard her quote Paul quite often, but not Jesus.
I wish modern day Christians would just be honest enough to admit that they follow Paul, not Jesus.
Every Christian I know should by rights call themselves Paulians.

Even in Paul's day, they had the same problem.

1Cor.1
[10] I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.
[11] For it has been reported to me by Chlo'e's people that there is quarreling among you, my brethren.
[12] What I mean is that each one of you says, "I belong to Paul," or "I belong to Apol'los," or "I belong to Cephas," or "I belong to Christ."
[13] Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

I think that modern day Christians should have themselves baptised in the name of Paul, at least that way they wouldn't be lying to themselves and everybody else.

Josh H. said...

Since the Charles and Andy Stanley succession was such a hot topic I thought I'd post an actually preaching calendar from Charles Stanley's church (where In Touch Ministries does it's broadcast)

Sunday Worship Schedule
Preaching Schedule

10-12-2008 Dr. Jerry Vines
10-19-2008 Dr. Stanley
10-26-2008 Dr. Stanley
11-2-2008 Tom Elliff of the IMB
11-9-2008 Dr. Stanley
11-16-2008 Dr. Stanley

The point is...Andy isn't the only guy who fills in for his father (which was an argument used earlier).