I think this cartoon will work great in a local Bible Vacation School this summer with young and highly influential children from 5 - 11.
As one Fundamentalist preacher told me one sometime ago as the why he preached on Hell so often: "I would rather scare a soul into Heaven than love it into Hell!
I say "Amen!" to that and bring on your cartoon Mr. God. I'm ready for Heaven!
Who knows the New Orleans Jazz tune; “When the Saint Go Marching In”?
Do you know that there is not a single place that I can turn to for a quality discussion about God? Not anywhere on the net. I can find some bits and pieces of one here. some bits and pieces on my boards. Sometimes on the cadre blog and a bit of one on comments on my blog but that only lasts a very short time, one or two posts.
The thing is the vast majority of atheist that I see on the net really are just filled hate and all they ever do is mock and ridicule. I can show you board after board after board where that is all that is going on. The section will say "discussion existence of God" the posts read like the bathroom wall at a middle school.
every so often an atheist will say "O Christians never make any sense and they don't have any good arguments, I've heard it all before." But no you hve not! not on the net. Very very very few of you have ever read anyone of any kind of quality. Loftus and few here on this site have, but most have not. Most know only angry Christians who are being jumped and psychologically raped through gang mocking and gang attacks on message boards. who could ever get anything out of such a jumble of stupidity?
I bet I could do a fair job of demonstrating that Christianity is a thinking persons religion, if I could ever get a real fair and level playing field where people would actually engage in fari and honest debate with me. but none of you will. you know you'd lose.
I bet I could do a fair job of demonstrating that Christianity is a thinking persons religion, if I could ever get a real fair and level playing field where people would actually engage in fari and honest debate with me. but none of you will. you know you'd lose.
"Real fair and level playing field?" That word...I do not think it means what you think it means. Are your posts here arbitrarily edited or rejected? Do we publish them only in Wingdings font? Do we say you can only post so many responses a day? How much more level a playing field do you want?
Oh, I know what you want. You want a lectern, with us all sitting on wooden benches nodding quietly while you pontificate on whatever you damn well please. That's called a "church", and you are welcome to go to one, but it is not a "real fair and level playing field"...it's an audience conditioned not to argue or contradict, and usually not even to question (and certainly most are not sufficiently informed to do so--again, thanks to religious indoctrination disguising itself as "education"). Here you will get challenged. And you will probably lose...again.
(Rev?) j.i.hinman, as the old country saying goes: “A kicked dog hollows!”
I my opinion, you seem to be a very aggregated and a bitter Christian who needs to vindicate himself in some illusive debate.
On the last post that Robert B posted on Jeremiah, you asked for a reply to your comments and both he and Dingo gave what I considered very astute and logical replies to ALL your comments.
I remember your rant and rage to try and get either Hector Avalos or John to debate you. I don’t know why you are so angry and need to vent in the form of an un-moderated debate; but unless this is in a controlled setting, it will be of little value here as Dist. Sup. Harvey Burnett has so often proven.
I don’t really even know what you believe, although you sound like a Methodius who attend Perkins School of Theology at Southern Methodius University.
So, are you retired? Did you even pastor a church? What are you looking for in some un-moderated on line debate? If you live in the area of Greenville, S.C., I sure the Secular Humanist here will get together a formal debate for you on the topic of your choice.
While you may think our posters are angry and dumb atheist, I have NOT, in all your challenges, seen where you really debate other then offer angry challenges.
Again, if you think that either Robert or Dingo are dumb atheist, than I really see little point in debating you, since it would not be your scholarship, but your anger that would be the real topic and bases for the debate.
-"The thing is the vast majority of atheist that I see on the net really are just filled [with] hate and all they ever do is mock and ridicule."
Ridicule is preferable to condemning you to an eternity of unspeakable torment, which is what we atheists inevitably cop from Christians once they have run out of any other arguments.
-"every so often an atheist will say "O Christians never make any sense and they don't have any good arguments, I've heard it all before."
Why do you think that is Joe? Could it be perhaps that Christians often don't make much sense, or have any good arguments to offer an educated skeptic?
-"I bet I could do a fair job of demonstrating that Christianity is a thinking persons religion, if I could ever get a real fair and level playing field where people would actually engage in fari and honest debate with me."
A real thinking person's religion? You're kidding, right? Is that why the Bible tells Christians that they must accept the gospel like a little child? Is that why the apostle Paul boasted that he was a fool for Christ? Is that why the Bible demands blind unquestioning obedience to church leaders and dogmas, on pain of persecution and damnation?
"Oh, I know what you want. You want a lectern, with us all sitting on wooden benches nodding quietly while you pontificate on whatever you damn well please. That's called a "church", and you are welcome to go to one, but it is not a "real fair and level playing field"...it's an audience conditioned not to argue or contradict, and usually not even to question..."
Has anyone here ever sat through a church sermon which had a question and answer session afterwards? I know that I haven't. It would give most preachers the vapours if anyone challenged any of his pontifications during the service. Hell, I even got kicked out of Sunday school once when I was a child, for challenging one of the teacher's false assertions about things astronomical, about which she had no knowlege whatsoever. Churches are to free inquiry, what the Russian Gulags were to freedom of expression.
Savgets"Real fair and level playing field?" That word...I do not think it means what you think it means. Are your posts here arbitrarily edited or rejected? Do we publish them only in Wingdings font? Do we say you can only post so many responses a day? How much more level a playing field do you want?
there is no level playing field where a meeting of the minds cannot occur. Two things you need for a meeting of the minds, good will, and equal time. I can't initiate an argument here on this site. I have to wait until someone of you brings up something I want to talk about. I feel that if I just lunched off into an argument I want to make and it was off topic I would get flack or even not have it posted.
about the good will; most of you you all are at least tolerant of Christians making comments here. Most of you don't say "O get him off he's a christian." Although I do feel great hostility from some. but there is an undertone from everyone that gives the impression that the major overwhealming attitude here is that Christianity can't possibly have anything gonig for it and if it might somehow no one really wants to hear about it.
but that's not so bad here but in general all over the net things are not at all the way they were back in 98 when I began,. Its' a totally different world. It was possible to find good discussions a lot back in that day. We still had all the stuff we have now, hostility, stupidity on both sides, p-ing contests and so forth, but those things were much less than they are now.
It has gotten absurd. Just a few minutes ago I checked my blog there was a comment in response to a peice I did on the God hate amputees thing, it just said "the mustard seed is not the smallest seed, Jesus should have known that."
now someone things that is a brilliant all puropose answer any argument come back that just kills Christianity. I think ti's a idiotic, inconsequential, bull shit resort to straws when one has nothing left to say. The fact that this person thought it was so brilliant and such a deal breaker tells me that here is a guy who just wishes with all his heart that God would go away and leave him alone, and christianity would go away. But he's still going to pretend to have a real discussion.
to have a real discussion there has to be some little slight chance that it will mean something to you. There has to be some chance you might be persuaded.
I get the impression that none of you would be persuaded by anything regardless of the evidence. sorry that's just the impression I get.
Oh, I know what you want. You want a lectern, with us all sitting on wooden benches nodding quietly while you pontificate on whatever you damn well please. That's called a "church", and you are welcome to go to one,
Nope. that's not what I call "a church." I have quite clear on the fact that a lectern is not a church since I was three. But your hostility is very telling.
besides you have a lectern here, but none of you are willing to come to my lectern and discuss there where I control the zap button
but it is not a "real fair and level playing field"...it's an audience conditioned not to argue or contradict, and usually not even to question (and certainly most are not sufficiently informed to do so--again, thanks to religious indoctrination disguising itself as "education"). Here you will get challenged. And you will probably lose...again.
that is just your sadly formed mis impression. YOu have not been tot he churches I've been to.
It's a clear tip off on the hostility thing because it has nothing whatsoever to do with truth claims of Christianity or with refuting them. it's purely a matter of "I hate church and I'm going to listen. that's exactly what that tells me.
(Rev?) j.i.hinman, as the old country saying goes: “A kicked dog hollows!”
why would you think I'm a reverend?
I my opinion, you seem to be a very aggregated and a bitter Christian who needs to vindicate himself in some illusive debate.
Is this sort of personal psychologizing relevant to any truth claims we might discuss in a logical and fair discussion? no this is exactly argument ad Homenim. what difference does it make if I"m bitter? why shouldn't I be anyway? why should I not be bitter toward a group of people who lie, cheat, can't discuss honestly, ridicule, humiliate, deride, degrade lie, I don't mean the people here, I just mean mainly on CARM and IIB but on atheist message boards in general.
On the last post that Robert B posted on Jeremiah, you asked for a reply to your comments and both he and Dingo gave what I considered very astute and logical replies to ALL your comments.
I'm glad for their sakes someone thought they were good. I thought they were so pathetic I didn't bother to keep at it. their answeres were beaten. that's anohter problem. no atheist will ever admit to losing any argument under any circumstances. never. I have never seen it in ten years of doing this stuff, never seen an atheist admit that; even when I have 300 sutdies they have 0 they still act like my stupidies are crap and little ignroant suspeiciions about them are gospel. Even when I have gaints int he fidl like Abraham Maslow they still insitl "these are just little preacher men emailing their flocks these are not studies they are just made up."
atheists as a general herd have drifted totally away from any kind of critical evaluation of their own arguments.
I remember your rant and rage to try and get either Hector Avalos or John to debate you. I don’t know why you are so angry and need to vent in the form of an un-moderated debate; but unless this is in a controlled setting, it will be of little value here as Dist. Sup. Harvey Burnett has so often proven.
some of the things I've said so far might give you a clue. Hector and John will not debate me although I read Hector's book and tore it to pieces. he knows the disaster that will befall him if a nobody like me beats him in a debate.
all of this is off the point. you are not facing the issue, you are trying to make me the issue that's all any athestis ever do.
I don’t really even know what you believe, although you sound like a Methodius who attend Perkins School of Theology at Southern Methodius University.
you could easily know what i believe, just read my blog. I'm generally a liberal on the order of Paul Tillich.
see my website http://www.doxa.ws/
So, are you retired? Did you even pastor a church? What are you looking for in some un-moderated on line debate? If you live in the area of Greenville, S.C., I sure the Secular Humanist here will get together a formal debate for you on the topic of your choice.
Unfortunately I do not live near Greenville SC. say is that near May berry? (sorry I couldn't resist, I'm a big fan of Andy Griffith show.) I live in "Big D" in the "lone star state!" Im' not retired but I was a Ph.D. candidate (ABD) in history of ideas, a secular program at UT and I had to give up my Ph.D studies due to personal family tragedies. I am not a minister I never sought minitry. My Masters is from Perkins in theology but it is an academic degree, not a ministry degree.
if you are going to be a preacher man they call that a "professional degree." The MTS is an academic degree.
While you may think our posters are angry and dumb atheist, I have NOT, in all your challenges, seen where you really debate other then offer angry challenges.
I did not say you guys are stupid.
this is not a proper venue for debate. I want room to do my thing. I feel to constricted here. see my comments above. I want a neutral turf on a message board, or maybe to trade posts not in a text box but published on the main blog. I would be willing to put them up on mine if one wishes to debate.
Again, if you think that either Robert or Dingo are dumb atheist, than I really see little point in debating you, since it would not be your scholarship, but your anger that would be the real topic and bases for the debate.
I dont' think anyone is dumb. I think you are not willing to really consider the potential truth claims of Christianity fairly. I feel that you dismiss it emotionally and you don't want to deal with it in a rigorous way. Although please don't misunderstand, I think many of you are trying to deal with it rigorously but still not really willing to expose yourselves to the possibility that some Christian just might be able to take on your arguments.
I am not trying to insult your intelligence. It's an attitude that perceive. It has nothing to do with being smart or dumb.
why does smart or dumb have to come into it? do you not know that smart people can be wrong about things like world view? You can find smart people in all walks of life representing all belief systems. I've known brilliant Pentecostals and stupid scientists. Belief has nothing to do with intelligence.
But a good rigorous and fair discussion can be very helpful.
dingodave asks: Has anyone here ever sat through a church sermon which had a question and answer session afterwards? I know that I haven't.
I have. Chuck "Peanut Butter Evolution" Missler does this a lot - or at least he used to on his frequent guest appearances to my church. I never heard him critiqued or questioned though.
-"The thing is the vast majority of atheist that I see on the net really are just filled [with] hate and all they ever do is mock and ridicule."
Ridicule is preferable to condemning you to an eternity of unspeakable torment, which is what we atheists inevitably cop from Christians once they have run out of any other arguments.
No it's not! that is totally unfair and fallacious. You are saying because some people who share your religious tradition have this nonsense idea that's a hold over from an ancient world, everything you say is wrong and is worthy of being ridiculed? that's ridiculous. that's like saying scientists once believed in either so therefore all of science is unworthy and we should make fun of science.
Moreover a very large percentage of Christians don't believe in hell. You are just committing the fallacy of guilt by association.
It is never right to sink to the level of barbarism just because you feel that your opponents are barbarous. Why don't we just have a gun fight? Better yet, I'm from Texas, come down here and I'll kick your ass! Is that they way you want to decide these things? Trial by combat?
-"every so often an atheist will say "O Christians never make any sense and they don't have any good arguments, I've heard it all before."
Why do you think that is Joe? Could it be perhaps that Christians often don't make much sense, or have any good arguments to offer an educated skeptic?
No. I think it's because most of these guys dont' listen, dont' know anything about ideas or history or the past. so they don't know a good idea from hole in the ground. all they know is they don't believe it so it must be stupid. I don't catre how much sicentific crap you have to back you, you cannot sayt hat Thomas Aqinas was stupid. I don't care how wrong may have been on anything, he was celary a very great thinker and for his day one fo the major geniuses of the rea. it's just a crime to dismiss him as a fool simpley because you don't buy his world view. that is anti-intellectual, anti- htought and totally not in the keeping wiht the things intellectual do.
you cannot make any claim to intellectual life thinking like that.
-"I bet I could do a fair job of demonstrating that Christianity is a thinking persons religion, if I could ever get a real fair and level playing field where people would actually engage in fari and honest debate with me."
A real thinking person's religion? You're kidding, right?
see, it's all attitude. You don't want to listen, you hate christians. possibly your self image has been based upon hating them and you have to bleieve they are stupid becuase it makes you feels o much better about yourself?
I am an thinking person. I will put my education up against anyone's any day. when you scoff at such an idea you are insulting me do you not understand that? how can you not see that?
Is that why the Bible tells Christians that they must accept the gospel like a little child?
so you think children are stupid? come off it that's the kind of hateful anti-reasoning position that these mindless mentions take to mock and deride. obviously Jesus was not equating childhood with stupidity. that is a very foolish interpretation.
Is that why the apostle Paul boasted that he was a fool for Christ?
see, again, why can't atheitss read? anyone with any knid of litterary sense would know he's not saying he thinks he's stupid. Obviously he's saying he's willing to be thought a fool, he's talking about the way others see it, not his own reasoning ability. he obviously thinks he's smart. Why would he brag so much about his background if the thought he was stupid? That is suchy a bogus interpriation. that tells me you are not in the least prepared to give any benefit of a doubt at all to any one aspect of Christianity. at that rate there si no possible discussion.
Is that why the Bible demands blind unquestioning obedience to church leaders and dogmas, on pain of persecution and damnation?
show me that passage? That's the sort of brain washed comment atheist learn to make when they refuse to think or consider the other side's arguments. there is no place where it says that. I promise you. there is not! if you think there is show me it.
but don't quote something "become as a little child." I remember being eight years old in Sunday school and the teacher telling us "that's not what this means."
Pull my other leg Joe, it plays Jinglebells.
I know you can't understand. I'm trying to show you what it is that insults if you care to learn. I have no ill will for you, I am not trying to put you down. But what you said in this post is nothing short of hate speech in that you demonstrate a totally unwillingness to even consider the Bible or Christianity in anything like a fair light. you just view it as evil ravings of mad men you refuse to even read it in a reasonable manner.
there is no way on this earth you could participate in a fair and open discussion with such an attitude. and it's universal. IT s' the vast majority. the things you have said I can show a half dozen saying it on message board any day of the week.
"Oh, I know what you want. You want a lectern, with us all sitting on wooden benches nodding quietly while you pontificate on whatever you damn well please. That's called a "church", and you are welcome to go to one, but it is not a "real fair and level playing field"...it's an audience conditioned not to argue or contradict, and usually not even to question..."
we already did that bit. why do you think the only two choices are either you be a passive student listening to me lecture, or you are mocking and deriding? those are not the only two choices. I envision taking turns speaking, organized speeches preset format both sides get equal time.
Has anyone here ever sat through a church sermon which had a question and answer session afterwards? I know that I haven't.
again, this is the sort of hting that is totally unfair but it is very telling. you have emotional anger at church. it's not the truth of God you are worried about it's the church people.
Now this is not meant to be an insult ok? Its just a fact. you have not been exposed to enough Christianity to understand that there are different elements. there are branches that are not fundamentalist and that are not churchly. You are boiling down a vast diverse field to just one element form among many.
It would give most preachers the vapours if anyone challenged any of his pontifications during the service. Hell, I even got kicked out of Sunday school once when I was a child, for challenging one of the teacher's false assertions about things astronomical, about which she had no knowlege whatsoever.
I am concerned with the truth of Christianity, not the manners of church people. I don't got o church, I agree with you about a lot of the church world, that's why I'm not in it. But I went to seminary and that was the best part of my life. it was great. go to seminary man!
go to seminary, if it's a good one. don't mess with Calvinists, or fundamentalists. Don't go to Dallas Theological Seminary. Methodists are good for example. Illif (Denver), Emory (Atlanta), Perkins (Dallas). It was great it was wonderful. that's where you will find the thinking side of Christianity.
Churches are to free inquiry, what the Russian Gulags were to freedom of expression.
Yes we are so Stalinist here that we are posting everything you write exactly as you wrote it and responding to it ... sheesh.
Look, if you think Christianity is the thinking man's religion, go make other Christians stop thinking things that are prima facie absurd.
Go convince the other Christians that the earth is 4.5 billion years old, that man evolved from lower forms of life with no discernible intervention from any deity, that the story of Balaam's ass is a myth, that nobody's rotting corpse came back to life, that the death of Ananias and Saphira is a myth, that there are no demons that can inhabit pigs and drive them over a cliff, that Jesus isn't coming back in the clouds some day and that when they die they won't burn in hell.
Currently in the US, about 50% of PEOPLE (not Christians, PEOPLE) believe that the world is less than 10000 years old and that man was created by God in his present form.
So that is the majority Christian position and that is the position that we are arguing against here.
If you want to find some fine point of disagreement with us and poke on it, go for it. We'll oblige if you make an argument.
But if you're a thinking man, your argument really isn't with atheists. Atheists and thinking men have a lot more beliefs in common and inhabit a much more similar universe than do the majority of US Christians.
So your work is cut out for you if you want reasonable debate ... go debate your co-religionsists. The folks over at triablogue are a hoot for debate. Of course they believe the baby Moses was put in a basket and sent down a river ... so you'll have to deal with them on that point first ... but seriously, your complaint is pretty much ridiculous.
Rule 1: If you want to make an argument, make it.
Rule 2: If someone disagrees with you, try to show why their position is weaker than yours, not why you are a better person than they are.
That should get you past most of the problems you're having.
This video is indeed a good way to use humor to drive home a serious point. And, I appreciate many of the serious points made on this blog. Though, I must admit that the idea of a cruel, vindictive, arbitrary God being behind the creation of this world seems quite plausible to me. And the fear that there COULD be a Hell is the one thing that has prevented me from committing suicide on several occasions.
Yes we are so Stalinist here that we are posting everything you write exactly as you wrote it and responding to it ... sheesh.
I said repeatedly I'm excluding you guys from much of the criticism.
Look, if you think Christianity is the thinking man's religion, go make other Christians stop thinking things that are prima facie absurd.
calling it that doesn't mean every single Christian is a thinker, nor does it mean there are no thinkers outside it. But it has a vast intellectual tradition.
Go convince the other Christians that the earth is 4.5 billion years old, that man evolved from lower forms of life with no discernible intervention from any deity, that the story of Balaam's ass is a myth,
mistake to think that most Christians don't believe in evolution. I bet you will continue to say that no matter how much evidence I could find to the contrary.
that nobody's rotting corpse came back to life, that the death of Ananias and Saphira is a myth, that there are no demons that can inhabit pigs and drive them over a cliff, that Jesus isn't coming back in the clouds some day and that when they die they won't burn in hell.
that's obviously black is white slide. there is nothing at all unintellectual about belief in the Resurrection and just because you can slip it in in the middle of other stuff you don't like doesn't mean it is unintellectual.
Currently in the US, about 50% of PEOPLE (not Christians, PEOPLE) believe that the world is less than 10000 years old and that man was created by God in his present form.
So that is the majority Christian position and that is the position that we are arguing against here.
No it's not. your mathematical skills are in error. First of all non christians can also doubt evolution. Secondly with 86% Christians, that means the 50% that believe in evolution could be could represent 35% or so o the country. That's a large chunch that you totally ignored in earlier statements. You spoke as though all Christians reject evolution. But in fact some of the 50% that reject evolution could be non Christian. So the percentage of Christians who accept evolution could be higher than 35%
If you want to find some fine point of disagreement with us and poke on it, go for it. We'll oblige if you make an argument.
what would that accomplish? I don't see that as a way to make head way.
But if you're a thinking man, your argument really isn't with atheists. Atheists and thinking men have a lot more beliefs in common and inhabit a much more similar universe than do the majority of US Christians.
then why are your arguments unfair? why are you afraid to consider that Christianity might have truth content? Why are you afraid to debate me? fair and friendly debate is what thinking people do.
So your work is cut out for you if you want reasonable debate ... go debate your co-religionsists.
what makes you think I don't? But is not the issue I want to speak to. why don't you go debate the nasty atheists I'm complaining about?
The folks over at triablogue are a hoot for debate. Of course they believe the baby Moses was put in a basket and sent down a river ... so you'll have to deal with them on that point first ... but seriously, your complaint is pretty much ridiculous.
when it suits you you assum those are the only kind of Christians there are. someone tells you they are not you say say go debate with them. Well if you are so much more intelligent then they are why are you not willing to have a free and fair debate?
Rule 1: If you want to make an argument, make it.
Rule 2: If someone disagrees with you, try to show why their position is weaker than yours, not why you are a better person than they are.
That should get you past most of the problems you're having.
This video is indeed a good way to use humor to drive home a serious point. And, I appreciate many of the serious points made on this blog. Though, I must admit that the idea of a cruel, vindictive, arbitrary God being behind the creation of this world seems quite plausible to me. And the fear that there COULD be a Hell is the one thing that has prevented me from committing suicide on several occasions.
why would you think God could be vindictive and bad if he exists? That doesn't make sense. I think God has to be good if there is a God. those just go together. To say otherwise is just reducing god to the level of things in creation rather than understanding God as the foundation of all things.
evil can't be the foundation of all things because it is not constructive, an evil God could not create original things. Love is related to the foundation of being. I am not the first to say this. some of the most brilliant theolgoians have pointed this out, Tillich and Balthasar.
I am glad you did not kill yourself and the fear was used in a positive way but I'm willing to bet that was not the only motivation behind your being saved from it. I also am willing to bet that love is more effectives. if you knew God's love you wouldn't have reason to kill yourself anyway.
evil can't be the foundation of all things because it is not constructive, an evil God could not create original things. Really? Evil people can certainly create things to suit there purposes (e.g. political parties and regimes). They can even accomplish things that seem positive on the surface (Hitler did much to at least temporarily solve the economic problems of post WWI Germany, Stalin brought Russia and other backward "republics" of the USSR into the industrial age).
My mind is not closed to the possibility of a loving God, but the evidence seems to point the other way. If God is good, he is certainly not all powerful. I think the most optimistic possibility is that a good but currently weak God could someday triumph over the forces of evil that currently rule the universe.
But, letting evil exist when he could stop it, is not kind, loving, or good in any way whatsoever. You could have free will to choose vanilla or chocolate ice cream, or to eat soup instead, whether to wear jeans or khakis, etc., all without even having a mind that could contemplate murder and theft. And God could make a world where crime truly didn't pay, and thus there would be no motive. Not to mention, natural disasters, diseases, etc. I know sometimes these have man made causes, but the people committing the actions often have no way to know their consequences, and the victims are often people who had no part in the actions to begin with. So, if you want to explain your theories of how a currently outmatched good God could eventually could eventually triumph, I'll listen. But any arguments about God being good and all powerful are attempts to square a circle.
Seriously JL ... nobody is keeping you down. You appear to be debating us here ... have at it.
so if I just go to the next peice about teaching children myths and stick in my argument for the ontological argument you will debate me on that and wont complain that it's off topic?
I want John to deal with my arguments. why should I have to just respond all the time? I want to set the stage for what is argued too. that's only fair.
Joe ... it's a free market. Nobody can force anyone else to do anything. You have a blog and you can set the tone there. You can't force anyone to go to your blog. You have to put up stuff people want to read and respond to.
Your post above the most recent suggests you don't even believe in an omnipotent God, which makes you a heretic to almost all Christians, so I can see why you are having trouble finding an audience ... and a God who is not omnipotent is not the kind of imaginary buddy I would make if I were in the business of making up imaginary buddies, but then again it's a free internet.
Constantly whining that people won't debate you while they are debating you though is really not a good approach.
You catch more flies with sucrose water than with acetic acid.
I recently found this site, and have been interested in seeing what everyone has to say. I was raised in a fundamentalist, evangelical home. Both of my brothers are full time Christian ministers (one is a missionary in another country and the other is a Methodist minister in Ohio).
After being a devout believer my whole life, I am now finding myself in a "faith" crisis.
I agree with what Meadester said:
"My mind is not closed to the possibility of a loving God, but the evidence seems to point the other way. If God is good, he is certainly not all powerful."
I don't think God could possibly be all loving and all knowing. Otherwise, he never would have put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden. If God is all knowing, he would have known ahead of time that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit from that tree. He would have also known that doing so would cause Adam and Eve, and all of humanity, to suffer and die. If he knew that, he was not all loving. An all loving God would not have wanted all of humanity to suffer forever. So I really can't believe in that all knowing, all loving God anymore that I was raised to fear. I don't know what I am now, but I know I am not able to worship the Christian god anymore.
It makes things easier if you figure out that Adam and Eve are myths.
I think the story of Adam and Eve is cool. It's not as good as Pandora for drama but it is probably slightly less misogynistic. As a piece of ancient literature it's a fun read and would still be a popular read if everyone agreed it was a myth.
It absolves God of any responsibility for things not to believe in him either, but hey ... baby steps.
Thanks for the warm welcome, Evan. Can I ask if you are an atheist, agnostic or theist? If you are an atheist or agnostic, do you have experience in the church? If so, what made you move away from religion (if you don't mind me asking). I have been really struggling with faith for a couple of years now. I've read several Christian books over the years, but have just begun to read books written by atheists or secular humanists. (Just finished reading Dan Barker's book "Losing Faith in Faith" and am now on to Christopher Hitchens' book "God is Not Great." John Loftus' book has been ordered from Amazon!) I guess I am just looking to see what other people believe, and why they changed their minds.
Thanks for sharing, if you are comfortable doing so.
but there is an undertone from everyone that gives the impression that the major overwhealming attitude here is that Christianity can't possibly have anything gonig for it and if it might somehow no one really wants to hear about it.
J.I.
It's not that the idea of Christianity couldn't possibly have anything at all going for it or that people might want to hear what you say. Clearly, Christians do help others and feel a sense of comfort from their belief. The question is - are these things merely a placebo effect based on the belief in a God that does not exist? And what are the hidden, (and blatantly obvious) costs in such a belief?
Also, the suggestion that you merely think Christianity has "something" going for would be quite an understatement, don't you think? God is either the creator of the universe or he is not.
"I don't know what I am now, but I know I am not able to worship the Christian god anymore."
If you still believe that he exists, but no longer worship him, then you are a non-Christian theist. If you no longer believe that he exists, then you are an atheist. At any rate, it's good to hear that you can no longer bring yourself to worship him. That's a great first step.
28 comments:
Thanks to Andrew Atkinson for the link.
I think this cartoon will work great in a local Bible Vacation School this summer with young and highly influential children from 5 - 11.
As one Fundamentalist preacher told me one sometime ago as the why he preached on Hell so often: "I would rather scare a soul into Heaven than love it into Hell!
I say "Amen!" to that and bring on your cartoon Mr. God. I'm ready for Heaven!
Who knows the New Orleans Jazz tune; “When the Saint Go Marching In”?
I loved the part about the 2,000 year old desert scribblings!
(JH)
Do you know that there is not a single place that I can turn to for a quality discussion about God? Not anywhere on the net. I can find some bits and pieces of one here. some bits and pieces on my boards. Sometimes on the cadre blog and a bit of one on comments on my blog but that only lasts a very short time, one or two posts.
The thing is the vast majority of atheist that I see on the net really are just filled hate and all they ever do is mock and ridicule. I can show you board after board after board where that is all that is going on. The section will say "discussion existence of God" the posts read like the bathroom wall at a middle school.
every so often an atheist will say "O Christians never make any sense and they don't have any good arguments, I've heard it all before." But no you hve not! not on the net. Very very very few of you have ever read anyone of any kind of quality. Loftus and few here on this site have, but most have not. Most know only angry Christians who are being jumped and psychologically raped through gang mocking and gang attacks on message boards. who could ever get anything out of such a jumble of stupidity?
I bet I could do a fair job of demonstrating that Christianity is a thinking persons religion, if I could ever get a real fair and level playing field where people would actually engage in fari and honest debate with me. but none of you will. you know you'd lose.
I bet I could do a fair job of demonstrating that Christianity is a thinking persons religion, if I could ever get a real fair and level playing field where people would actually engage in fari and honest debate with me. but none of you will. you know you'd lose.
"Real fair and level playing field?" That word...I do not think it means what you think it means. Are your posts here arbitrarily edited or rejected? Do we publish them only in Wingdings font? Do we say you can only post so many responses a day? How much more level a playing field do you want?
Oh, I know what you want. You want a lectern, with us all sitting on wooden benches nodding quietly while you pontificate on whatever you damn well please. That's called a "church", and you are welcome to go to one, but it is not a "real fair and level playing field"...it's an audience conditioned not to argue or contradict, and usually not even to question (and certainly most are not sufficiently informed to do so--again, thanks to religious indoctrination disguising itself as "education"). Here you will get challenged. And you will probably lose...again.
(Rev?) j.i.hinman, as the old country saying goes: “A kicked dog hollows!”
I my opinion, you seem to be a very aggregated and a bitter Christian who needs to vindicate himself in some illusive debate.
On the last post that Robert B posted on Jeremiah, you asked for a reply to your comments and both he and Dingo gave what I considered very astute and logical replies to ALL your comments.
I remember your rant and rage to try and get either Hector Avalos or John to debate you. I don’t know why you are so angry and need to vent in the form of an un-moderated debate; but unless this is in a controlled setting, it will be of little value here as Dist. Sup. Harvey Burnett has so often proven.
I don’t really even know what you believe, although you sound like a Methodius who attend Perkins School of Theology at Southern Methodius University.
So, are you retired? Did you even pastor a church? What are you looking for in some un-moderated on line debate? If you live in the area of Greenville, S.C., I sure the Secular Humanist here will get
together a formal debate for you on the topic of your choice.
While you may think our posters are angry and dumb atheist, I have NOT, in all your challenges, seen where you really debate other then offer angry challenges.
Again, if you think that either Robert or Dingo are dumb atheist, than I really see little point in debating you, since it would not be your scholarship, but your anger that would be the real topic and bases for the debate.
Joe Hinman wrote:
-"The thing is the vast majority of atheist that I see on the net really are just filled [with] hate and all they ever do is mock and ridicule."
Ridicule is preferable to condemning you to an eternity of unspeakable torment, which is what we atheists inevitably cop from Christians once they have run out of any other arguments.
-"every so often an atheist will say "O Christians never make any sense and they don't have any good arguments, I've heard it all before."
Why do you think that is Joe? Could it be perhaps that Christians often don't make much sense, or have any good arguments to offer an educated skeptic?
-"I bet I could do a fair job of demonstrating that Christianity is a thinking persons religion, if I could ever get a real fair and level playing field where people would actually engage in fari and honest debate with me."
A real thinking person's religion? You're kidding, right?
Is that why the Bible tells Christians that they must accept the gospel like a little child? Is that why the apostle Paul boasted that he was a fool for Christ? Is that why the Bible demands blind unquestioning obedience to church leaders and dogmas, on pain of persecution and damnation?
Pull my other leg Joe, it plays Jinglebells.
Shygetz wrote:
"Oh, I know what you want. You want a lectern, with us all sitting on wooden benches nodding quietly while you pontificate on whatever you damn well please. That's called a "church", and you are welcome to go to one, but it is not a "real fair and level playing field"...it's an audience conditioned not to argue or contradict, and usually not even to question..."
Has anyone here ever sat through a church sermon which had a question and answer session afterwards? I know that I haven't. It would give most preachers the vapours if anyone challenged any of his pontifications during the service. Hell, I even got kicked out of Sunday school once when I was a child, for challenging one of the teacher's false assertions about things astronomical, about which she had no knowlege whatsoever.
Churches are to free inquiry, what the Russian Gulags were to freedom of expression.
Savgets"Real fair and level playing field?" That word...I do not think it means what you think it means. Are your posts here arbitrarily edited or rejected? Do we publish them only in Wingdings font? Do we say you can only post so many responses a day? How much more level a playing field do you want?
there is no level playing field where a meeting of the minds cannot occur. Two things you need for a meeting of the minds, good will, and equal time. I can't initiate an argument here on this site. I have to wait until someone of you brings up something I want to talk about. I feel that if I just lunched off into an argument I want to make and it was off topic I would get flack or even not have it posted.
about the good will; most of you you all are at least tolerant of Christians making comments here. Most of you don't say "O get him off he's a christian." Although I do feel great hostility from some. but there is an undertone from everyone that gives the impression that the major overwhealming attitude here is that Christianity can't possibly have anything gonig for it and if it might somehow no one really wants to hear about it.
but that's not so bad here but in general all over the net things are not at all the way they were back in 98 when I began,. Its' a totally different world. It was possible to find good discussions a lot back in that day. We still had all the stuff we have now, hostility, stupidity on both sides, p-ing contests and so forth, but those things were much less than they are now.
It has gotten absurd. Just a few minutes ago I checked my blog there was a comment in response to a peice I did on the God hate amputees thing, it just said "the mustard seed is not the smallest seed, Jesus should have known that."
now someone things that is a brilliant all puropose answer any argument come back that just kills Christianity. I think ti's a idiotic, inconsequential, bull shit resort to straws when one has nothing left to say. The fact that this person thought it was so brilliant and such a deal breaker tells me that here is a guy who just wishes with all his heart that God would go away and leave him alone, and christianity would go away. But he's still going to pretend to have a real discussion.
to have a real discussion there has to be some little slight chance that it will mean something to you. There has to be some chance you might be persuaded.
I get the impression that none of you would be persuaded by anything regardless of the evidence. sorry that's just the impression I get.
Oh, I know what you want. You want a lectern, with us all sitting on wooden benches nodding quietly while you pontificate on whatever you damn well please. That's called a "church", and you are welcome to go to one,
Nope. that's not what I call "a church." I have quite clear on the fact that a lectern is not a church since I was three. But your hostility is very telling.
besides you have a lectern here, but none of you are willing to come to my lectern and discuss there where I control the zap button
but it is not a "real fair and level playing field"...it's an audience conditioned not to argue or contradict, and usually not even to question (and certainly most are not sufficiently informed to do so--again, thanks to religious indoctrination disguising itself as "education"). Here you will get challenged. And you will probably lose...again.
that is just your sadly formed mis impression. YOu have not been tot he churches I've been to.
It's a clear tip off on the hostility thing because it has nothing whatsoever to do with truth claims of Christianity or with refuting them. it's purely a matter of "I hate church and I'm going to listen. that's exactly what that tells me.
8:47 PM, July 09, 2008
harry McCall said...
(Rev?) j.i.hinman, as the old country saying goes: “A kicked dog hollows!”
why would you think I'm a reverend?
I my opinion, you seem to be a very aggregated and a bitter Christian who needs to vindicate himself in some illusive debate.
Is this sort of personal psychologizing relevant to any truth claims we might discuss in a logical and fair discussion? no this is exactly argument ad Homenim. what difference does it make if I"m bitter? why shouldn't I be anyway? why should I not be bitter toward a group of people who lie, cheat, can't discuss honestly, ridicule, humiliate, deride, degrade lie, I don't mean the people here, I just mean mainly on CARM and IIB but on atheist message boards in general.
On the last post that Robert B posted on Jeremiah, you asked for a reply to your comments and both he and Dingo gave what I considered very astute and logical replies to ALL your comments.
I'm glad for their sakes someone thought they were good. I thought they were so pathetic I didn't bother to keep at it. their answeres were beaten. that's anohter problem. no atheist will ever admit to losing any argument under any circumstances. never. I have never seen it in ten years of doing this stuff, never seen an atheist admit that; even when I have 300 sutdies they have 0 they still act like my stupidies are crap and little ignroant suspeiciions about them are gospel. Even when I have gaints int he fidl like Abraham Maslow they still insitl "these are just little preacher men emailing their flocks these are not studies they are just made up."
atheists as a general herd have drifted totally away from any kind of critical evaluation of their own arguments.
I remember your rant and rage to try and get either Hector Avalos or John to debate you. I don’t know why you are so angry and need to vent in the form of an un-moderated debate; but unless this is in a controlled setting, it will be of little value here as Dist. Sup. Harvey Burnett has so often proven.
some of the things I've said so far might give you a clue. Hector and John will not debate me although I read Hector's book and tore it to pieces. he knows the disaster that will befall him if a nobody like me beats him in a debate.
all of this is off the point. you are not facing the issue, you are trying to make me the issue that's all any athestis ever do.
I don’t really even know what you believe, although you sound like a Methodius who attend Perkins School of Theology at Southern Methodius University.
you could easily know what i believe, just read my blog. I'm generally a liberal on the order of Paul Tillich.
see my website http://www.doxa.ws/
So, are you retired? Did you even pastor a church? What are you looking for in some un-moderated on line debate? If you live in the area of Greenville, S.C., I sure the Secular Humanist here will get
together a formal debate for you on the topic of your choice.
Unfortunately I do not live near Greenville SC. say is that near May berry? (sorry I couldn't resist, I'm a big fan of Andy Griffith show.) I live in "Big D" in the "lone star state!" Im' not retired but I was a Ph.D. candidate (ABD) in history of ideas, a secular program at UT and I had to give up my Ph.D studies due to personal family tragedies. I am not a minister I never sought minitry. My Masters is from Perkins in theology but it is an academic degree, not a ministry degree.
if you are going to be a preacher man they call that a "professional degree." The MTS is an academic degree.
While you may think our posters are angry and dumb atheist, I have NOT, in all your challenges, seen where you really debate other then offer angry challenges.
I did not say you guys are stupid.
this is not a proper venue for debate. I want room to do my thing. I feel to constricted here. see my comments above. I want a neutral turf on a message board, or maybe to trade posts not in a text box but published on the main blog. I would be willing to put them up on mine if one wishes to debate.
Again, if you think that either Robert or Dingo are dumb atheist, than I really see little point in debating you, since it would not be your scholarship, but your anger that would be the real topic and bases for the debate.
I dont' think anyone is dumb. I think you are not willing to really consider the potential truth claims of Christianity fairly. I feel that you dismiss it emotionally and you don't want to deal with it in a rigorous way. Although please don't misunderstand, I think many of you are trying to deal with it rigorously but still not really willing to expose yourselves to the possibility that some Christian just might be able to take on your arguments.
I am not trying to insult your intelligence. It's an attitude that perceive. It has nothing to do with being smart or dumb.
why does smart or dumb have to come into it? do you not know that smart people can be wrong about things like world view? You can find smart people in all walks of life representing all belief systems. I've known brilliant Pentecostals and stupid scientists. Belief has nothing to do with intelligence.
But a good rigorous and fair discussion can be very helpful.
dingodave asks:
Has anyone here ever sat through a church sermon which had a question and answer session afterwards? I know that I haven't.
I have. Chuck "Peanut Butter Evolution" Missler does this a lot - or at least he used to on his frequent guest appearances to my church. I never heard him critiqued or questioned though.
Blogger DingoDave said...
Joe Hinman wrote:
-"The thing is the vast majority of atheist that I see on the net really are just filled [with] hate and all they ever do is mock and ridicule."
Ridicule is preferable to condemning you to an eternity of unspeakable torment, which is what we atheists inevitably cop from Christians once they have run out of any other arguments.
No it's not! that is totally unfair and fallacious. You are saying because some people who share your religious tradition have this nonsense idea that's a hold over from an ancient world, everything you say is wrong and is worthy of being ridiculed? that's ridiculous. that's like saying scientists once believed in either so therefore all of science is unworthy and we should make fun of science.
Moreover a very large percentage of Christians don't believe in hell. You are just committing the fallacy of guilt by association.
It is never right to sink to the level of barbarism just because you feel that your opponents are barbarous. Why don't we just have a gun fight? Better yet, I'm from Texas, come down here and I'll kick your ass! Is that they way you want to decide these things? Trial by combat?
-"every so often an atheist will say "O Christians never make any sense and they don't have any good arguments, I've heard it all before."
Why do you think that is Joe? Could it be perhaps that Christians often don't make much sense, or have any good arguments to offer an educated skeptic?
No. I think it's because most of these guys dont' listen, dont' know anything about ideas or history or the past. so they don't know a good idea from hole in the ground. all they know is they don't believe it so it must be stupid. I don't catre how much sicentific crap you have to back you, you cannot sayt hat Thomas Aqinas was stupid. I don't care how wrong may have been on anything, he was celary a very great thinker and for his day one fo the major geniuses of the rea. it's just a crime to dismiss him as a fool simpley because you don't buy his world view. that is anti-intellectual, anti- htought and totally not in the keeping wiht the things intellectual do.
you cannot make any claim to intellectual life thinking like that.
-"I bet I could do a fair job of demonstrating that Christianity is a thinking persons religion, if I could ever get a real fair and level playing field where people would actually engage in fari and honest debate with me."
A real thinking person's religion? You're kidding, right?
see, it's all attitude. You don't want to listen, you hate christians. possibly your self image has been based upon hating them and you have to bleieve they are stupid becuase it makes you feels o much better about yourself?
I am an thinking person. I will put my education up against anyone's any day. when you scoff at such an idea you are insulting me do you not understand that? how can you not see that?
Is that why the Bible tells Christians that they must accept the gospel like a little child?
so you think children are stupid? come off it that's the kind of hateful anti-reasoning position that these mindless mentions take to mock and deride. obviously Jesus was not equating childhood with stupidity. that is a very foolish interpretation.
Is that why the apostle Paul boasted that he was a fool for Christ?
see, again, why can't atheitss read? anyone with any knid of litterary sense would know he's not saying he thinks he's stupid. Obviously he's saying he's willing to be thought a fool, he's talking about the way others see it, not his own reasoning ability. he obviously thinks he's smart. Why would he brag so much about his background if the thought he was stupid? That is suchy a bogus interpriation.
that tells me you are not in the least prepared to give any benefit of a doubt at all to any one aspect of Christianity. at that rate there si no possible discussion.
Is that why the Bible demands blind unquestioning obedience to church leaders and dogmas, on pain of persecution and damnation?
show me that passage? That's the sort of brain washed comment atheist learn to make when they refuse to think or consider the other side's arguments. there is no place where it says that. I promise you. there is not! if you think there is show me it.
but don't quote something "become as a little child." I remember being eight years old in Sunday school and the teacher telling us "that's not what this means."
Pull my other leg Joe, it plays Jinglebells.
I know you can't understand. I'm trying to show you what it is that insults if you care to learn. I have no ill will for you, I am not trying to put you down. But what you said in this post is nothing short of hate speech in that you demonstrate a totally unwillingness to even consider the Bible or Christianity in anything like a fair light. you just view it as evil ravings of mad men you refuse to even read it in a reasonable manner.
there is no way on this earth you could participate in a fair and open discussion with such an attitude. and it's universal. IT s' the vast majority. the things you have said I can show a half dozen saying it on message board any day of the week.
"Oh, I know what you want. You want a lectern, with us all sitting on wooden benches nodding quietly while you pontificate on whatever you damn well please. That's called a "church", and you are welcome to go to one, but it is not a "real fair and level playing field"...it's an audience conditioned not to argue or contradict, and usually not even to question..."
we already did that bit. why do you think the only two choices are either you be a passive student listening to me lecture, or you are mocking and deriding? those are not the only two choices. I envision taking turns speaking, organized speeches preset format both sides get equal time.
Has anyone here ever sat through a church sermon which had a question and answer session afterwards? I know that I haven't.
again, this is the sort of hting that is totally unfair but it is very telling. you have emotional anger at church. it's not the truth of God you are worried about it's the church people.
Now this is not meant to be an insult ok? Its just a fact. you have not been exposed to enough Christianity to understand that there are different elements. there are branches that are not fundamentalist and that are not churchly. You are boiling down a vast diverse field to just one element form among many.
It would give most preachers the vapours if anyone challenged any of his pontifications during the service. Hell, I even got kicked out of Sunday school once when I was a child, for challenging one of the teacher's false assertions about things astronomical, about which she had no knowlege whatsoever.
I am concerned with the truth of Christianity, not the manners of church people. I don't got o church, I agree with you about a lot of the church world, that's why I'm not in it. But I went to seminary and that was the best part of my life. it was great. go to seminary man!
go to seminary, if it's a good one. don't mess with Calvinists, or fundamentalists. Don't go to Dallas Theological Seminary. Methodists are good for example. Illif (Denver), Emory (Atlanta), Perkins (Dallas). It was great it was wonderful. that's where you will find the thinking side of Christianity.
Churches are to free inquiry, what the Russian Gulags were to freedom of expression.
so are atheists message boards.
Yes we are so Stalinist here that we are posting everything you write exactly as you wrote it and responding to it ... sheesh.
Look, if you think Christianity is the thinking man's religion, go make other Christians stop thinking things that are prima facie absurd.
Go convince the other Christians that the earth is 4.5 billion years old, that man evolved from lower forms of life with no discernible intervention from any deity, that the story of Balaam's ass is a myth, that nobody's rotting corpse came back to life, that the death of Ananias and Saphira is a myth, that there are no demons that can inhabit pigs and drive them over a cliff, that Jesus isn't coming back in the clouds some day and that when they die they won't burn in hell.
Currently in the US, about 50% of PEOPLE (not Christians, PEOPLE) believe that the world is less than 10000 years old and that man was created by God in his present form.
So that is the majority Christian position and that is the position that we are arguing against here.
If you want to find some fine point of disagreement with us and poke on it, go for it. We'll oblige if you make an argument.
But if you're a thinking man, your argument really isn't with atheists. Atheists and thinking men have a lot more beliefs in common and inhabit a much more similar universe than do the majority of US Christians.
So your work is cut out for you if you want reasonable debate ... go debate your co-religionsists. The folks over at triablogue are a hoot for debate. Of course they believe the baby Moses was put in a basket and sent down a river ... so you'll have to deal with them on that point first ... but seriously, your complaint is pretty much ridiculous.
Rule 1: If you want to make an argument, make it.
Rule 2: If someone disagrees with you, try to show why their position is weaker than yours, not why you are a better person than they are.
That should get you past most of the problems you're having.
This video is indeed a good way to use humor to drive home a serious point. And, I appreciate many of the serious points made on this blog. Though, I must admit that the idea of a cruel, vindictive, arbitrary God being behind the creation of this world seems quite plausible to me. And the fear that there COULD be a Hell is the one thing that has prevented me from committing suicide on several occasions.
Yes we are so Stalinist here that we are posting everything you write exactly as you wrote it and responding to it ... sheesh.
I said repeatedly I'm excluding you guys from much of the criticism.
Look, if you think Christianity is the thinking man's religion, go make other Christians stop thinking things that are prima facie absurd.
calling it that doesn't mean every single Christian is a thinker, nor does it mean there are no thinkers outside it. But it has a vast intellectual tradition.
Go convince the other Christians that the earth is 4.5 billion years old, that man evolved from lower forms of life with no discernible intervention from any deity, that the story of Balaam's ass is a myth,
mistake to think that most Christians don't believe in evolution. I bet you will continue to say that no matter how much evidence I could find to the contrary.
that nobody's rotting corpse came back to life, that the death of Ananias and Saphira is a myth, that there are no demons that can inhabit pigs and drive them over a cliff, that Jesus isn't coming back in the clouds some day and that when they die they won't burn in hell.
that's obviously black is white slide. there is nothing at all unintellectual about belief in the Resurrection and just because you can slip it in in the middle of other stuff you don't like doesn't mean it is unintellectual.
Currently in the US, about 50% of PEOPLE (not Christians, PEOPLE) believe that the world is less than 10000 years old and that man was created by God in his present form.
So that is the majority Christian position and that is the position that we are arguing against here.
No it's not. your mathematical skills are in error. First of all non christians can also doubt evolution. Secondly with 86% Christians, that means the 50% that believe in evolution could be could represent 35% or so o the country. That's a large chunch that you totally ignored in earlier statements. You spoke as though all Christians reject evolution. But in fact some of the 50% that reject evolution could be non Christian. So the percentage of Christians who accept evolution could be higher than 35%
If you want to find some fine point of disagreement with us and poke on it, go for it. We'll oblige if you make an argument.
what would that accomplish? I don't see that as a way to make head way.
But if you're a thinking man, your argument really isn't with atheists. Atheists and thinking men have a lot more beliefs in common and inhabit a much more similar universe than do the majority of US Christians.
then why are your arguments unfair? why are you afraid to consider that Christianity might have truth content? Why are you afraid to debate me? fair and friendly debate is what thinking people do.
So your work is cut out for you if you want reasonable debate ... go debate your co-religionsists.
what makes you think I don't? But is not the issue I want to speak to. why don't you go debate the nasty atheists I'm complaining about?
The folks over at triablogue are a hoot for debate. Of course they believe the baby Moses was put in a basket and sent down a river ... so you'll have to deal with them on that point first ... but seriously, your complaint is pretty much ridiculous.
when it suits you you assum those are the only kind of Christians there are. someone tells you they are not you say say go debate with them. Well if you are so much more intelligent then they are why are you not willing to have a free and fair debate?
Rule 1: If you want to make an argument, make it.
Rule 2: If someone disagrees with you, try to show why their position is weaker than yours, not why you are a better person than they are.
That should get you past most of the problems you're having.
This video is indeed a good way to use humor to drive home a serious point. And, I appreciate many of the serious points made on this blog. Though, I must admit that the idea of a cruel, vindictive, arbitrary God being behind the creation of this world seems quite plausible to me. And the fear that there COULD be a Hell is the one thing that has prevented me from committing suicide on several occasions.
why would you think God could be vindictive and bad if he exists? That doesn't make sense. I think God has to be good if there is a God. those just go together. To say otherwise is just reducing god to the level of things in creation rather than understanding God as the foundation of all things.
evil can't be the foundation of all things because it is not constructive, an evil God could not create original things. Love is related to the foundation of being. I am not the first to say this. some of the most brilliant theolgoians have pointed this out, Tillich and Balthasar.
I am glad you did not kill yourself and the fear was used in a positive way but I'm willing to bet that was not the only motivation behind your being saved from it. I also am willing to bet that love is more effectives. if you knew God's love you wouldn't have reason to kill yourself anyway.
Seriously JL ... nobody is keeping you down. You appear to be debating us here ... have at it.
J.L. Hinman said...
evil can't be the foundation of all things because it is not constructive, an evil God could not create original things.
Really? Evil people can certainly create things to suit there purposes (e.g. political parties and regimes). They can even accomplish things that seem positive on the surface (Hitler did much to at least temporarily solve the economic problems of post WWI Germany, Stalin brought Russia and other backward "republics" of the USSR into the industrial age).
My mind is not closed to the possibility of a loving God, but the evidence seems to point the other way. If God is good, he is certainly not all powerful. I think the most optimistic possibility is that a good but currently weak God could someday triumph over the forces of evil that currently rule the universe.
But, letting evil exist when he could stop it, is not kind, loving, or good in any way whatsoever. You could have free will to choose vanilla or chocolate ice cream, or to eat soup instead, whether to wear jeans or khakis, etc., all without even having a mind that could contemplate murder and theft. And God could make a world where crime truly didn't pay, and thus there would be no motive. Not to mention, natural disasters, diseases, etc. I know sometimes these have man made causes, but the people committing the actions often have no way to know their consequences, and the victims are often people who had no part in the actions to begin with. So, if you want to explain your theories of how a currently outmatched good God could eventually could eventually triumph, I'll listen. But any arguments about God being good and all powerful are attempts to square a circle.
Seriously JL ... nobody is keeping you down. You appear to be debating us here ... have at it.
so if I just go to the next peice about teaching children myths and stick in my argument for the ontological argument you will debate me on that and wont complain that it's off topic?
I want John to deal with my arguments. why should I have to just respond all the time? I want to set the stage for what is argued too. that's only fair.
Joe ... it's a free market. Nobody can force anyone else to do anything. You have a blog and you can set the tone there. You can't force anyone to go to your blog. You have to put up stuff people want to read and respond to.
Your post above the most recent suggests you don't even believe in an omnipotent God, which makes you a heretic to almost all Christians, so I can see why you are having trouble finding an audience ... and a God who is not omnipotent is not the kind of imaginary buddy I would make if I were in the business of making up imaginary buddies, but then again it's a free internet.
Constantly whining that people won't debate you while they are debating you though is really not a good approach.
You catch more flies with sucrose water than with acetic acid.
Hi...
I recently found this site, and have been interested in seeing what everyone has to say. I was raised in a fundamentalist, evangelical home. Both of my brothers are full time Christian ministers (one is a missionary in another country and the other is a Methodist minister in Ohio).
After being a devout believer my whole life, I am now finding myself in a "faith" crisis.
I agree with what Meadester said:
"My mind is not closed to the possibility of a loving God, but the evidence seems to point the other way. If God is good, he is certainly not all powerful."
I don't think God could possibly be all loving and all knowing. Otherwise, he never would have put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden. If God is all knowing, he would have known ahead of time that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit from that tree. He would have also known that doing so would cause Adam and Eve, and all of humanity, to suffer and die. If he knew that, he was not all loving. An all loving God would not have wanted all of humanity to suffer forever. So I really can't believe in that all knowing, all loving God anymore that I was raised to fear. I don't know what I am now, but I know I am not able to worship the Christian god anymore.
Susan, welcome.
It makes things easier if you figure out that Adam and Eve are myths.
I think the story of Adam and Eve is cool. It's not as good as Pandora for drama but it is probably slightly less misogynistic. As a piece of ancient literature it's a fun read and would still be a popular read if everyone agreed it was a myth.
It absolves God of any responsibility for things not to believe in him either, but hey ... baby steps.
Thanks for the warm welcome, Evan. Can I ask if you are an atheist, agnostic or theist? If you are an atheist or agnostic, do you have experience in the church? If so, what made you move away from religion (if you don't mind me asking). I have been really struggling with faith for a couple of years now. I've read several Christian books over the years, but have just begun to read books written by atheists or secular humanists. (Just finished reading Dan Barker's book "Losing Faith in Faith" and am now on to Christopher Hitchens' book "God is Not Great." John Loftus' book has been ordered from Amazon!) I guess I am just looking to see what other people believe, and why they changed their minds.
Thanks for sharing, if you are comfortable doing so.
Susan you can read the story and my self classification here.
but there is an undertone from everyone that gives the impression that the major overwhealming attitude here is that Christianity can't possibly have anything gonig for it and if it might somehow no one really wants to hear about it.
J.I.
It's not that the idea of Christianity couldn't possibly have anything at all going for it or that people might want to hear what you say. Clearly, Christians do help others and feel a sense of comfort from their belief. The question is - are these things merely a placebo effect based on the belief in a God that does not exist? And what are the hidden, (and blatantly obvious) costs in such a belief?
Also, the suggestion that you merely think Christianity has "something" going for would be quite an understatement, don't you think? God is either the creator of the universe or he is not.
Susan et al wrote:
"I don't know what I am now, but I know I am not able to worship the Christian god anymore."
If you still believe that he exists, but no longer worship him, then you are a non-Christian theist. If you no longer believe that he exists, then you are an atheist. At any rate, it's good to hear that you can no longer bring yourself to worship him. That's a great first step.
Hi Susan.
You might want to take a look at Ex-christian.net. (You'll find a link at this site)
They have a lot of testimonials from people from all walks of life who have wised up and walked away from cult of the bible.
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