What kind of science needs a lawyer?

Over at Uncommon Descent, Denyse O' Leary demonstrates the "lean into it" response to her cognitive dissonance. In this post, she lays out her case for why the Intelligent Design movement is winning. Such is her grasp of matters under discussion in the quote she provides, that she offers retorts like this:
Not only should spontaneous generation be true if they are right, but so should magic, Magic, after all, is simply another name for sudden self-organization.

That’s right folks - just toss the bedclothes into the air and they’ll come down in a perfect mitred-corner bed. Just toss whatever into the stew pot, sans cookbook, and you’ll evolve a gourmet dinner. How generations could have come and gone, and no one ever noticed that before is beyond me.

Ahem. Beyond her.... yes, indeed.

Anyway, commenter "Tom Riddle", lavishing in being as yet undetected by the high-trigger banninator over by the esteemed moderators at UD, points to this story as a counterfactual in the first comment of the thread:

Report: Judge Says University Can Deny Course Credit to Christian Graduates Taught With Creationism Texts

That story probably merits a post of it's own, come to think of it. Here's O'Leary's reponse to having this pointed out:


Actually, Darwinism is the only supposedly scientific theory I have ever heard of that always seems to need a legal defense fund - and thrives simply by expelling opposition. That is a reliable mark of falsehood.

Skipping over the rich opportunities presented by the irony in her remarks (ever wonder why UD only has the "choir" in the comment stream?), it's maybe worth pointing out that Galileo would have done well to have high-powered counsel and fantastically deep pockets, and his offense was heliocentric astronomy (er, maybe we should say "impertinence" and "arrogance" about having the facts and observations right over the Emperor's courtiers, in anticipation of the kinds of quibbles D'Souza is wont to offer as apologetics on this). And Galileo's discovery was only a scrape on the elbow of Christian theology.

The ideas of Charles Darwin are no disproof for Christianity. Christianity survives on its unfalsifiability, and as a long time theistic evolutionist, I say that evolution has a lot to recommend it beyond just avoiding the head-in-the-sand obstinance of creationism. If Christianity has a nominally respectable theodicy, it is one that includes the "open theology" elements implied by an embrace of evolution. Even so, Darwin's ideas are arrows aimed at all the crucial organs of Christianity, and is the threat of this "dangerous idea" that puts evolution in the front lines of the culture wars. Whereas Galileo simply bumped man off his exalted pedestal at the "center" of the cosmos, Darwin didn't disprove God, but instead made him largely superfluous in terms of creation and the development of life on Earth. For an ideology that is perfectly immune to falsification, superfluity is as about as threatening a prospect as Christianity can expect to face.

Darwin thus becomes the enemy of theism, as it provides a framework that holds out the promise of reducing theism to a remote kind of deism. Evolution does not, and cannot provide account for the provenance of the physical law, and the universe itself, but given the laws and emergent properties of the developing universe that spring forth from them, "formed from the dust" just gets the nod of parsimony over the hand of God, as God as sculptor, tinkerer, biological hobbyist isn't needed to explain the diversity and dynamics of all the life we see around us.

That puts science, science that embraces the core of Darwin's dangerous idea, in danger itself. In providing the framework that eliminates a major "gap" where God was historically posited, atheistic and deistic paradigms achieved a level of robust coherence they had not before.

And the Church is not amused.

Gone are the days when the pope could have Darwin placed under house arrest. Indeed, to its credit, Rome has managed to reform its thinking on science and biology since the days of Bellarmine. Problems abound still, but you will not find the foolish dogmatism and dishonest wholesale dismissals of the evidence for evolution coming from the Vatican. Nashville is the new Rome. And while the Christian Right has nothing like the temporal power enjoyed by the great inquisitors, as a bloc they remain enormously powerful in America, waning now, but still wielding tremendous power in political and relgious vectors of American culture.

This calls for talented and intrepid lawyers.

Indeed, the rule of law is the triumph of secular principles over religious ones in the public sphere. If science is to remain science, loyal to its methodology and heuristics, it needs protection. When you follow the evidence for evidence's sake, it will eventually lead you across heavily guarded religious boundaries, and inquiry will be stifled and thwarted if its not supported by the law. Moreover it's the very best and most powerful scientific theories that will need the best legal counsel, the deepest pockets for its legal defense fund. For it is these theories that reach the deepest, and provide the most profound explanations and insights into the most compelling questions man has, and which religion has always jealously guarded as it's "God given turf". Darwin's simple idea, that all living things are connected by heredity into a unified "tree of life" is the most profound answer science has ever provided to mankind. It's not even an anti-religious idea, but one that sends much established dogma, much received wisdom teetering on the edge of irrelevancy.

Darwin understood this. He agonized over the dislocating implications of his simple conclusion. More than 150 years later, with the compelling confirmation of genetics for the hypothesis he drew from fossils and keen, careful observations in his journeys, his "dangerous idea" is much more dangerous to principalities of long standing than it has ever been. The church universal, or at least that part that sides with dogma over against the interlocking array of mutually supporting lines of evidence that is modern biology (and physics), will not concede to the facts without a fight. Happily, a "fight" in our society usually means a war of words, funds, votes and legal maneuvers. Better than bullets and flaming stakes, I say. But it is still a pitched battle, and the front lines are places where lawyers and lawmakers make a big difference.

Darwin's ideas are big, profound, sweeping ideas. They don't disprove God, but they do tend to marginalize him, and for much of the established religous culture, that's just as bad, and possibly worse. The better Darwin's ideas prove to be, the more lawyers and active defending they will need by the friends of science, a circumstance exactly opposite of what O'Leary supposes to be the case.

-Touchstone

20 comments:

BahramtheRed said...

Okay lets get this straight. This person claims darwin needs a lawyer since she refuses to understand the principal and people keep back dooring their theories into class room.

People fight these attempts to use schools as indroctination centers. Using the best tool around. The impartial courts.

Intelligent Design keeps getting told they are not sceince and only a relgious theory violating the seperation of curch and state. And yet they keep sneaking back to the class room.

Without evidence. Without facts. Without anything of value besides a very thick boring book to thump.

I still don't get it.

goprairie said...

ah, but they have a MUSEUM now. that PROVES it is real science. doesn't it???

Rotten Arsenal said...

You know, actually her cooking analogy is pretty good, if she understood it. The creationists look at it as the ultimate end result is always humans. And so there's too much that needed to happen for humans to exist for it to be evolution.

They're looking at it from the wrong end. Humans are the end result of the billions of little "ingredients" being "thrown in the pot." The stuff in the pot, in this particular case, made a palatable end result (i.e. self-aware humans). It was far more likely, however, that the stuff in the pot would turn out to be something else that wasn't humans... like on many other planets where the same elements in varying levels were thrown in the pot and they didn't get this result.

If same basic ingredients are used in billions of pots and those ingredients are mixed in varying quantities in those pots, eventually, one of those pots will produce a final result that is (in our conceited little egotistical human brains) far superior to all those other pots of glop.

Creationists think that we're here for a reason and so we couldn't have just happened here or rather, the odds of us just happening here to fulfill whatever ridiculous reason are so very minute that some creator must have put us here so that we could fulfill this reason that we in our minds have determined must exist.

But really, we're just the end result of a big uncontrolled action of science.

Evan said...

Well, it took me over a minute to come up with a short list of other sciences in need of lawyers:

Climate Science (EPA cases re: Global warming)

Psychology (False Memory syndrome)

Ecology (endangered species, environmental impact)

Pharmacology (Drug cases)

Chemistry (Drug Patent cases)

Geology (Drilling rights and water dispute cases)

That was pretty easy.

This is the typical level of thinking that you see from ID advocates, pull something from your fundament and just publish it without much thought.

Touchstone said...

Evan,

Does pharmacology cover stem cell research? I dunno, but that's another area where science and the facts needs some vigorous representation. Good riff on what I'm saying!

-TS

ismellarat said...

If schools were private, none of this would matter.

And if the kids pick up some screwy ideas along the way, they'll outgrow them in the real world soon enough.

I think it's more important that schools be treated as an extension of parenting rather than a "public interest".

But Christians and atheists alike just love to use the state to try and force their worldviews on each other, don't they?

MH said...

This is a all a typical example of christian 'just-so' stories. No attempt at falsification or completeness.

Just one big confirmation bias party.

J said...

Please, please, please turn this into a YouTube video.

Unknown said...

Great post Touchstone.

Ismellarat. There is a difference here between the christian (fundamentalist) and atheist world views. Namely that the atheists are right. Evoluton is real, its haw we got here. Intelligent design and creationism are wrong. They are not good science and they are either unverifiable or flat out disproved.

It really bugs me when people say, "oh its the atheists trying to indoctrinate as much as the christians". Its not. On this point the theists are wrong. This sounds big headed and yet every single time its come to the test, the evolution camp has not only proved itself correct, but proved its opponents laughably wrong.

I don't agree with schools pushing an atheist world view (i.e. telling them there is no god) but i do agree with secular education. Parents should take charge of their childrens religious education, not state funded schools. Those should teach the current scientific consensus (e.g. evolution) and not pander to any of the faiths.

Rotten Arsenal said...

Are there any openly atheist schools? While the Christians would claim all public schools are atheist and trying to ruin their good Christian children, I'm asking about private or higher education schools that openly say they reject any doctrine of theology as truth and teach only as mythology for social reasons.

This has been on my mind lately. I'm looking to get a job in an Academic library and have already run into to schools that I won't even be considered because I'm not Christian. They are private, Baptist affiliated universities. One just insists that all faculty and staff admit to being Christians. The other says you have to be a good, practicing Baptist.

Ignoring the implications of these policies for now (such as an "inbred" view being taught since no outside thinking is allowed in), I was wondering if anybody has tried to establish a no-nonsense atheist school?

BahramtheRed said...

Oli; You just hit the nail on the head without even catching it.

Schools arn't telling little christian brats there's a god. Hence they are denying of this god, even if they're just saying keep those prayers silent.

Oh and that's before you consider the fact the schools arn't only using God First educational practices. Basically means everything that dosn't conform to the bible is wrong, hence a lie, and unsuitable for little chrisitans to hear.

After all who needs to know about animals the bible didn't mention, how long the earth has been around, evolution, or anything else that might knock a leg out from the bible. That might shake their faifth and make them consort with all those heathen scum. Like us. It's better to make sure they don't have anything threaten their salvation.

Shygetz said...

If schools were private, none of this would matter.

Until you're the one at the hospital being treated by a faith healer instead of a medical doctor.

And if the kids pick up some screwy ideas along the way, they'll outgrow them in the real world soon enough.

Yeah, because it's the KIDS that have been working to teach creationism as fact. Oh, wait, it's ADULTS that have been pushing creationism. But, that means that people DON'T outgrow their screwy ideas in the real world. That would mean...you're wrong (GASP)!?!

I think it's more important that schools be treated as an extension of parenting rather than a "public interest".

They are...there are no laws saying a person must attend a public school, and parents are able to elect the people who set the educational standards, so long as they remain within Constitutional grounds. You are also more than welcome to educate your kids yourself, either in private schools or at home.

There IS a public interest in providing quality education to everyone who wants it (pretty much every study has indicated that it's the cheapest and most effective way to improve standards of living, reduce crime, etc.), and the only way to reliably do this is to make a system of public schools that provide education to everyone free of cost.

But Christians and atheists alike just love to use the state to try and force their worldviews on each other, don't they?

I'm sorry, was there a high school course on how atheism is correct? I must have missed it. Oh, you mean SCIENCE! While I wish science said atheism was correct, it's just not so. However, it does point out that certain religious beliefs directly contradict facts. If that bothers you...oh well. I imagine it bothers you less when you get an M.D. instead of a voodoo witch to treat your pneumonia, even though medical standards of care enforced by the government violate some peoples' beliefs. Boo-frickin'-hoo.

ismellarat said...

Folks, I'm not arguing on any other basis than parental rights, here.

I guess I'm somewhere in between the extremes on what's usually discussed in these pages.

"You don't sound like one of us, so you must be one of them" is the reaction I get, more often than not, from all sides. I guess nobody loves me, and those that believe in Hell often think I'm going there, along with you.

But that should be irrelevant to this issue.

I'm saying even knowing that many want to teach nutty things to their kids, that should be their right.

Oli, I shouldn't have said it exactly in the way I did (I didn't mean to imply that truth is relative, or whatever), and get your point, but again I think parental rights trump that, and there's so much more to this than just science. What if the choice to be made were between a kid going to a gang-infested school that taught real science (which gangs are so well-known for understanding :) ) and being
schooled by fundy nuts whose kids manage to score much higher in other subjects (not that I see how most of science wouldn't still be taught in the same way)?

Check out the "grade-school level" McGuffey Readers that these nuts used to use, that college freshmen have trouble understanding now. They obviously had *something* right back then. I'd trust a Christian parent with the welfare of their own child before I'd trust the teachers' unions.

Rotten, I wish I could edit my original wording. It occured to me later that it wasn't exactly right. Re the baptist schools and such, I'd have to agree it's simply their dollars and therefore their right to require that. If the Hare Krishnas had a school and required you to agree that there were a hidden planet behind the moon (if I remember) that'd be your tough luck also. Let the market sort it out. And that should apply to atheists also. If they're so hot, they can easily start their own schools and outshine the fundies, no? I don't really have a dog in this race, or however the saying goes.


Shygetz, you think a faith healer would make it through medical school and then last more than an hour believing that crap? :)

"That would mean...you're wrong (GASP)!?!"

I'll put it another way:

If you're worried about some future, doctorate-holding scientist making some momentous decision based on "but mommy told me way back when that the earth was created 6000 years ago" and letting that trump his Ph. D., I think maybe you give grade schools too much credit. :)

Of course the rabble will always believe some amount of nonsense - no matter where they went to grade school - and we're fortunate to have people like you who can disabuse them of it, should they feel like listening.

Good - you do support the idea of public schools being voluntary (many don't, as you know), but shouldn't that include their funding?

Few can afford to pay for both ("free of cost"!), and the teachers' unions must be very happy knowing that.

Alright, I got nailed 3 times now for my original phrasing, and I didn't mean it exactly like that.

Check out my other posts, if you think I'm a fundy. I do like most of what I read here.

Evan said...

If you're worried about some future, doctorate-holding scientist making some momentous decision based on "but mommy told me way back when that the earth was created 6000 years ago" and letting that trump his Ph. D., I think maybe you give grade schools too much credit. :)

I don't want to make too much of a deal about it, but this has happened.

When Dr. Bailey did the baboon heart transplant the reason he picked a baboon heart rather than a chimp was because it was more available. He was asked why he chose this when chimps were much closer relatives of humans. His response was that he didn't believe in evolution.

So I think your argument (on this particular point) could use some buffing.

ismellarat said...

Alright then, evan, it's happened that doctors/scientists have made decisions based on a belief in creationism (which aren't necessarily terrible ones), but I don't think that their reasons for them were based on a just a grade-school level teaching.

There's also the example of the guy who invented the birth control pill, which I remember he'd wanted to work in a way that would conform to his religious beliefs.

Many things are demonstrably true but not as widely believed as I'd like them to be, but that wouldn't make me want to interfere with someone's parenting, if they have different ideas.

Rocky Rodent said...

Is Denise O'Leary some kind of high-class wind-up like the Onion or Stephen Colbert - you have to assume she's aware of the irony in those 2 quotes, the first in particular...right?

Although, I did think the same thing the first time I saw the AIG site, then they spent $27m on a 'museum' that would make the Wizard of Oz seem like a plausible story.

Touchstone said...

Dr. Funkenstein,

I've read a lot of her stuff over the years, and no, not a trace of tongue-in-cheek that I can detect. She takes what she says quite seriously, by all indications. She's the vanguard for "Poe's Law" on the ID front -- very hard to distinguish parody of O'Leary from the real thing.

-TS

Rayndeon said...

Tom Riddle?

Since when is Voldemort defending evolution? O_O Well, I suppose that goes with the whole Social Darwinism bit about "There is no good or evil - only power and those too weak to seek it." [/harrypotterfanaticism]

Perhaps O'Leary didn't notice her irony meter spiking?

Anyway -

These people keep misrepresenting science and biology... and the actual field biologists keep relying on evolutionary frameworks and actually use evolutionary principles for working applications. When science starts making money, that's a pretty good indication that it works.

The pseudoscientists might rave, but reality moves on.

*Shrugs*

the mad LOLscientist said...

de Nuts O'Loony says:

"Darwinism is the only supposedly scientific theory I have ever heard of that always seems to need a legal defense fund"

If that's the case, how is it that the IDiots are the ones using lawyers as apologists, trying to legislate holes in science education, and otherwise appealing to bogus constructs of "law" itself? As Rod Serling would have said, "Consider the case[s]":

[1] Phillip Johnson. 'Nuff said.

[2] the raving Fundy minister interviewed a while back on the Infidel Guy podcast, whose "answer" to every example the other guest gave about evolution was, "That would never hold up in a court of law."

[3] the pro-ID "scientists" who chickened out of appearing at the Dover trial. They didn't even bother showing up in a "court of law"! So much for fighting the battle on their own turf.

Bah. Humbug. Welcome to the Twilight Zone.

Unknown said...

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For Charles Darwin, the problem of the peacock's tail, in light of his theory of natural selection, was vexing in the extreme. Indeed, in 1860, writing to Asa Gray, his most ardent American champion, Darwin confessed: "The sight of a feather in a peacock's tail, whenever I gaze at it, makes me sick!"