For What It’s Worth
Twenty years ago, while I was president of our humanistic discussion group here in Greenville The Lion‘s Den, I debated a young ministerial student over the truth of the Bible (one of a number of debates I did back in the 80’s). This nice you man published very well written a monthly apologetic newspaper he entitled: The Bible Trumpet.
With regards to our debate, he asked me if his wife could help in defending his conservative position on Biblical truth. I told him I would welcome her input. The debate did not fair well for them and they left disappointed..
A year later, he excitedly told me that he was going to attend an apologetic Bible conference where the famed Gleason Archer (The International Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties) and the renowned conservative Old Testament scholar, Walter Kaiser would be leading a major conference on the defense of the Bible.
Dr. Archer's topic was: What Proof Do We have That Moses Wrote the Pentateuch?
Dr. Walter Kaiser’s topic was: The J E D P Documentary Hypothesis Exploded
After both apologetic lectures, Drs. Archer and Kaiser would debate several Moslem scholars in order to exposed the Qu’ran as a false historical record (A debate I thought was like the pot calling the kettle black!).
My young friend told me he had been in touch with Dr. Archer who challenged him to have me write down any facts which I felt proved Moses did not write the Pentateuch. My friend said he would personally give them to Dr. Archer at the conference who he claimed “would put me in my place“.
My editor friend told me that he was very excited about Dr. Archer’s challenge to me and he could not wait to give me my irrefutable apologetic answers. So I wrote down five hard facts which I felt proved Moses did in fact not write the Pentateuch.
A week later my ministerial friend returned, but seemed put out. After all, he had used his short vacation time off from his night job (as he was a full time college Bible student during the day), plus he paid all his expenses to and at the conference.
When I asked him what irrefutable evidence did Dr. Archer provide to prove my facts wrong, he told me he did not know what happened. He said he gave Dr. Archer my questions, who studied them for a short time, then he threw them on the conference table and exclaimed: “Whose this nut?” before walking off.
That’s right! Your’s truly was declared an official declared a “nut” by the editor / author of The International Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties (sounds a lot like JP Holding).
However, I had the last laugh since, the funny thing is, it only took a “nut” to stump the great Gleason Archer!
Sad to say, about 3 years later I heard form my apologetic ministerial friend again. Since I work in electronics, he wanted me to show him how to hook up a motion controlled camera to catch him wife cheating on him after he went work at night while she stayed with the kids. He told me he had already caught her once and that it had upset him so, he quit writing his apologetic paper.
I gave him the information and wished him well. That was seventeen years ago and sadly, I never heard from him again.
With regards to our debate, he asked me if his wife could help in defending his conservative position on Biblical truth. I told him I would welcome her input. The debate did not fair well for them and they left disappointed..
A year later, he excitedly told me that he was going to attend an apologetic Bible conference where the famed Gleason Archer (The International Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties) and the renowned conservative Old Testament scholar, Walter Kaiser would be leading a major conference on the defense of the Bible.
Dr. Archer's topic was: What Proof Do We have That Moses Wrote the Pentateuch?
Dr. Walter Kaiser’s topic was: The J E D P Documentary Hypothesis Exploded
After both apologetic lectures, Drs. Archer and Kaiser would debate several Moslem scholars in order to exposed the Qu’ran as a false historical record (A debate I thought was like the pot calling the kettle black!).
My young friend told me he had been in touch with Dr. Archer who challenged him to have me write down any facts which I felt proved Moses did not write the Pentateuch. My friend said he would personally give them to Dr. Archer at the conference who he claimed “would put me in my place“.
My editor friend told me that he was very excited about Dr. Archer’s challenge to me and he could not wait to give me my irrefutable apologetic answers. So I wrote down five hard facts which I felt proved Moses did in fact not write the Pentateuch.
A week later my ministerial friend returned, but seemed put out. After all, he had used his short vacation time off from his night job (as he was a full time college Bible student during the day), plus he paid all his expenses to and at the conference.
When I asked him what irrefutable evidence did Dr. Archer provide to prove my facts wrong, he told me he did not know what happened. He said he gave Dr. Archer my questions, who studied them for a short time, then he threw them on the conference table and exclaimed: “Whose this nut?” before walking off.
That’s right! Your’s truly was declared an official declared a “nut” by the editor / author of The International Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties (sounds a lot like JP Holding).
However, I had the last laugh since, the funny thing is, it only took a “nut” to stump the great Gleason Archer!
Sad to say, about 3 years later I heard form my apologetic ministerial friend again. Since I work in electronics, he wanted me to show him how to hook up a motion controlled camera to catch him wife cheating on him after he went work at night while she stayed with the kids. He told me he had already caught her once and that it had upset him so, he quit writing his apologetic paper.
I gave him the information and wished him well. That was seventeen years ago and sadly, I never heard from him again.
10 comments:
I think I have an idea what questions I would ask him. What questions did you ask?
Five questions ... one for each book, I guess. :-) -- just kiddin`.
But seriously, the books of Moses are called thus because they are about him (4 out of 5). The fact that he somehow kept a ``captain's log`` a-la Jean Luc Picard, AND wrote about himself constantly at the third person (AND described his own death while at it) ... that's just like saying that Joshua wrote Joshua, or that the Judges wrote Judges, or that Samuel wrote Samuel (when he dies at the middle of his first book), or that the Kings wrote Kings.
He did receive revelation, which he either delivered by word of mouth or enscribed in stone, and this revelation (which he received and delivered) is indeed contained in his books, ... but he didn't exactly "write" them.
Well, whatever ...
After all theses years, now I can clear my conscious, repent and be at peace with God and myself.
Father (John), forgive me for I have sinned.
I used a volume form the EJ Brill’s Supplements to Vetus Testamentum: “Moses and the Law in an Age of Criticism Since Graft” by R.J Thompson to come up with five stinging facts.
I only regret that Dr. Archer went to his grave stumped... and that by a "nut"!
Oh well, maybe he is now sitting at the feet of Jesus having ALL his question answered.
Do “nuts” go to Heaven?
(John, I long ago lost the questions, but I still have the book.)
"who is this nut" or something similar is the answer to many of the questions I had during my deconversion. I also get the all so famous "well no one said that Christianity would be easy." I am always taken aback by the worthless answers Christians give for difficult questions. The experiences I am referring to were from 10-15 years ago and the questions I have today are much harder to answer, which makes me wonder what they would say?
What's the big deal about J E D P? Isn't this theory pretty well accepted by Biblical Scholars these days? The Pontifical Biblical Institute expects a student to have knowledge of the theory as part of it's admission requirement. ( admission requirements)
As far as I understand J E D P is based on source criticism using the same methods used to determine the sources behind the Gospels.
I'm curious what evidence Archer and Kaiser provided. Have they published their findings in any major scholarly journals?
What does the JEDP theory have to do with biblical truth? Forgive my ignorance here. I'm more familiar with New Testament scholarship then with Old, but my understanding is that multiple sources supports the historicity of an event. For example, one of the reasons that the Jesus Seminar gave the core of the healing of the leper a pink vote, was because they judged Egerton gospel's account of same event as a separate source and not dependent on the Gospels. Doesn't the same principle apply to Old Testament criticism? If the Pentateuch was written by a single author, then wouldn't we know less about the time period not more?
Brian_G, according to Harry's post, the J D E P document theory was the topic of a presentation given 19 years ago. It, in and of itself, had nothing to do with what Harry was relating.
I think you would have realized this if you had actually read the article.
Walter Kaiser earned his PhD at Brandies University under the late Semitic scholar Cyrus H. Gordon who wrote a number of articles attacking the Documentary Theory as totally unfounded. One of the opposing articles found its way into a 1959 issue of Christianity Today entitled “Higher Criticism and Forbidden Fruit” in which Gordon claimed, as a student, he was required to learn this theory made famous by Julius Welhausen 1844 – 1918 (himself a former minister in Germany who rejected his ordination in favor of objective scholarship) that he said did not make any sense. Gordon’s challenged was answered in another article by a member of the William F. Albrights “school” who, from my point of view, pointed out major holes in Gordon’s article.
Gordon’s position is still pushed today in the lay community by such well know sources as the Teaching Company on their lecture on Genesis (the same popular audio company that carries Bart Ehrman’s lectures).
Harry,
I'm not an Old Testament scholar in any form (my academic background is an unlikely mix of history and physics) but when I studied the history of the Bronze Age, one of the biggest things that struck me, was the total lack of evidence for even the existence of an historical Moses.
How is that understood in theological circles?
m.tully, John Collins (Yale), William Dever (Emeritus, University Arizona), William Propp (University of Calf. Who just completed the major Anchor Bible on Exodus) , TL Thompson (University of Copenhagen),
and a number of books John has list in the margins on the main page at DC would totally agree with you hands down!
Harry,
Were you a fellow of the Jesus Seminar?
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