The "Hidden" Moral Imperative of Rationality

When utilizing rational thought, it is common to claim that rationality does not entail a moral judgment. A claim that thus-and-so must be blue does not entail a moral approval or disapproval of the fact that thus-and-so is blue, it is merely a statement of fact separate from moral judgments. Non-theists typically find ourselves making this distinction quite often when arguing with theists, pointing out the "is-ought" fallacy when charged with such villainy as loving the fact that survival of the fittest entails the death of the weak, or of wanting people to die for pointless or false reasons as opposed to a true faith. However, rationality does contain a moral judgment that is often left unspoken, and this moral assumption sometimes seems to be a key area of misunderstanding between theist and atheist.

Rationality is based on the moral assumption that a truth is inherently preferable to an untruth. Now for some of us, such a moral assumption may seem so basely shared as to be unworthy of comment. However, I am quickly becoming convinced that this moral value is NOT shared nearly as widely as some might suspect, and perhaps it shouldn't be.

"Atheism can't be true, because then anyone can do what they want as there would be no arbiter of morality."

"If I accept atheism, then when I die I'm dead, end of story. Why would I want to believe that?"

"Atheism leads to Hitler, Pol Pot, and Stalin."

Every time someone, whether theist or non-theist, uses or accepts an Argument from Consequences or Wishful Thinking, they are implicitly affirming that they do NOT consider a truth to be inherently preferable to an untruth. Rather, they find the truth preferable only for its utility in reaching some other goal. In the case where a lie is more useful in reaching that goal, the truth is NOT to be preferred. Now rational thinkers throughout the centuries have succeeding to some extent, I think, in making Wishful Thinking a dirty word, and something that is just not done in respectable company. But, much like racism, there is a large disconnect between making something publicly unacceptable and eradicating it from the general mindset. While many may claim that they are most interested in the truth, the continued success and appeal of Arguments from Consequences such as those listed above is prima facie evidence that some people do NOT value the truth of an idea over its other utilities.

This inherent moral disconnect is not just some unrelated esoteric moral dilemma. Rather, it gets to the heart of why two groups of people often seem to be speaking past one another. Rationalists will go into an argument with the notion that if they can demonstrate that something is untrue (or, at least, unsupported by fact), they can sway their opponent. However, this is not enough for non-rationalists, nor should it be. The failure of a rational argument to sway a non-rationalist is NOT a failure in the cognitive skills of the non-rationalist; rather, it is a moral disconnect between what an idea ought to do. A rationalist thinks an idea ought to approximate a metaphysical reality as closely as possible. I value truth in my ideas over other utility because, by better understanding reality, I can better bring my faculties to bear to shape reality in a fashion that makes my happiness more likely. A non-rationalist thinks that an idea has another utility more important that modeling truth.

Rationalists are not obligated to accept or respect a non-rationalists' moral view of the utility of ideas. However, those here who know me know I am, above all, a pragmatist. I don't come here to practice my typing or because I have a lot of free time to kill; I want to convince people to come around to my way of thinking, find a superior way of thinking that I can adopt, or failing all that, better understand my opponents. So, while I think that rationalists are not obliged to accept non-rationalists' moral view of ideas as valid, I think that we must engage this idea in order to hold mutually productive arguments (similarly, non-rationalists must realize that it is non-productive to point out to a rationalist all of the bad utility that stems from a belief unless you can point out that the belief does not represent reality).

My point in all this is to justify and expand upon something that I have said previously: in our attempts to Debunk Christianity, it is often insufficient to show that Christianity is false (or, at best, unsupported). Rather, we must also show that it is not useful. While some here have addressed, others demonstrate a disdain towards it that I think is unproductive and perhaps unwarranted. By examining why we value truth over other utilities, we might better understand why others might not have the same moral value, and therefore why Arguments from Consequences might sway them more strongly than the most rigorous proofs. I can damn well guarantee you that Evangelical pastors fully understand the power of emotional appeals and Arguments from Consequences, and history has shown that they will not hesitate to use them.

I know some find such arguments beside the point, as do I. As a rationalist, it is often hard for me to sympathize with those who think that their belief should do something other than represent reality as accurately as possible. We often fall into the trap of thinking that our discourse must rise above such "petty" concerns. However, such concerns are only "petty" to those who value truth over all else, and that group of people is far from all-inclusive. We must decide if we are going to be in the business of academic debate or in the business of convincing people, and we must recognize that the two are not wholly overlapping sets. As a pragmatist who believes in moral subjectivity, I can appreciate that my value of the truth is not universal. I can also recognize that there is utility to me in being able to persuade those who place secondary value on truth. Finally, I have recognized that we have already managed to convince a disproportionate number of those who already place primary value on truth in ideas. While it's important to continue to spread appropriate facts to those who remain ignorant of them, it is not enough. If we wish to cease speaking past those who value other utilities in ideas, we must be prepared to either speak towards their values or convince them that their values are wrong.

32 comments:

Doug Indeap said...

You make a good point.

When engaging theists in discussion about utility and consequences of their beliefs, though, I think it would be useful to preface our remarks with a reminder that the discussion has nothing to do with the truth or falsity of those beliefs. Otherwise, we risk giving the false impression that their concern over utility and consequences actually matters with respect to whether the belief is true or false.

Anonymous said...

"Rationality is based on the moral assumption that a truth is inherently preferable to an untruth."

I'm not sure I buy this. How can rationality be based on an assumption that makes references to truth and untruth, concepts which we cannot make sense of in the absence of rationality? Also, if rationality is based on this assumption, then doesn't it follow that the initial move from the assumption to rationality is non-rational?

I think that the only way to make this work is to replace 'is based on' with a formulation that expresses the interdependence of rationality and a moral preference for truth.

Shygetz said...

I disagree with some of what you wrote. We can certainly "make sense" of truth in the absence of rationality; we just cannot discern truth from falsehood in a reliable fashion. Rationality makes a moral judgment that the primary object of an idea is to approximate truth as best as possible. This oft unspoken moral assumption behind rationality is in no way unintuitive, and I'm confused why you are having a hard time with it. The notion of the beneficial lie has a long history in moral/ethical circles, and my observation that rationality places an almost Platonic value on truth is not original.

And yes, to move from the core assumption of rationality IS non-rational by definition. Why would you bring up such a simple truism? It's the entire point of my post--because your moral value is that an idea OUGHT to hew to truth above all other concerns. Your moral judgment is not shared by everyone. You say "non-rational" when you mean "non-rational and therefore bad". You have just ensured that you will speak past those who value Arguments from Consequences. While that might be fine from aesthetic grounds, if your goal is to persuade your fellow man towards your way of thinking, it is insufficient.

Anonymous said...

"We can certainly "make sense" of truth in the absence of rationality; we just cannot discern truth from falsehood in a reliable fashion."

How? Note, 'truth' is a concept -- an abstraction. First, to move from a particular instance, or from a number of instances, to a concept requires a process of evaluation that can only be characterized as 'rational.' But second, to go further and suppose in addition both the ability to discern its opposite (untruth) and to judge that truth is preferable to untruth is simply incoherent apart from some conception of rationality.

"Rationality makes a moral judgment that the primary object of an idea is to approximate truth as best as possible."

I don't think that there is necessarily a moral imperative here at all, and for a variety of reasons. The one I'm focusing on, however, concerns the incoherence of your formulation. If the moral imperative logically precedes rationality, yet itself cannot be made sense of apart from rationality, then your argument cannot be sustained (because of its obvious -- and vicious --circularity).

"You say "non-rational" when you mean "non-rational and therefore bad"."

Not at all. I chose my words carefully: If I wanted to suggest that the move was 'bad' I would've used the term 'irrational,' not 'non-rational.' The point -- again -- is that if the moral imperative cannot be made sense of apart from rationality, then your position is circular; however, if we add that it's also the case that the move from the moral imperative to rationality is non-rational, then -- since rationality is presupposed by the moral imperative -- the purported connection is, at least prima facie, arbitrary.

Jeff Carter said...

I asked these types of questions here before, but they seem worth repeating: Has not Western philosophy demonstrated the limits of reason / rationality in terms of the metaphysical, rendering it useless in that regard? When you say the rationalist values the truth, what truth are you speaking of? I find that the rationalist is no more interested in truth that those of faith or experience or other types of knowledge, they just over-emphasize objective truth.

For those of you interested, for this conversation I have established a special category "Limits of Reason" (bottom of page, middle column) consisting of a number of blogs I have posted in the past on my website, www.sophiesladder.com, on this subject. "Reason Is Not King" is a good place to start.

J. K. Jones said...

Interesting post.

That is why I do not use arguments from consequences. I prefer logically valid proofs.

Anonymous said...

I agree, but I think that evidence and inference should figure into any "equation" about rationality.

Utility is in the eye of the beholder, and good luck with any arguments that depend on subjectivity unless you can find common ground in whatever subjective topic you are discussing.

One perspective on truth can be "moral" but the perspective on truth that I prefer, and in my opinion is harder to equivocate, is "truth as accurately representing the real world". From a data quality perspective. From this perspective truth can be quantified and measured.

I know from social psychology scientific studies that the elaboration likelihood model of persuasion is more effective than any other. It relies on the introduction of new information for consideration and elaboration.

Defining terms for "rational", "truth", "morals" and "false" is fundamental.

I think where the rubber meets the road is "does the data represent the real world", and are any conclusions or decisions derived from the data sound. If the data that all the decisions and conclusions are derived from can be shown to be erroneous, then the framework that uses the erroneous data is flawed.

And there are a ton of business cases that verify this and christianity with its ~33% mindshare over 2000 years fits the model.

No-one doubts the existence or effects of fire, because it is independently verifiable, and everyones perspective overlaps enough such that I can make the statement with confidence that no mentally sound person wants to walk into one which will cause them damage.

But I cannot make the statement that all christians believe [fill in the blank] because everytime I do, I get another christian contradicting me and admonisishing me for not knowing better.

Christianity is an undefined mess and when you get them to start defining their terms, then they disagree with each other. That is a clear indicator of dependence on poor quality information.

Anonymous said...

additionally,
I cannot make the statement
with confidence that no mentally sound person would not believe that to be saved one must believe in Jesus and his human sacrifice on the cross because the evidence is just not as convincing as fire.

The data is not of high enough quality to be convincing. There is too much room to doubt that the data accurately represents the real world.

Mr. Gordon said...

Shygetz,

You say that atheist on this board must show that Christianity is not useful. What a silly thing to do. One of the main reasons that Christianity is still around is because it is useful. I find it interesting that science is starting to show that religions including Christianity are good for you, which would show that they are useful.

Now let me add some insight here. One way they are useful is that they provide support. For instance my elderly parents rely on the support of their church for assistance. Their church brings them food when they were sick. I will give you another example of the usefulness of Christianity. We have a friend who had a child 10 weeks before we did. The monument we had our child we had support from our church. We had several people volunteer to be a baby sitter.

Now our friends who do not belong to a church have to rely upon their work connections for any assistance, which is where we come in, my wife works with the father of this baby. We are their only people they know well enough to have as a baby sitter. We also have received many presents from people who are in our church. Our friends have received little to no support from anyone.

There are other uses for Christianity but I won’t go into them now. I will just sit back and watch to see how open to truth and reality you really are.

Harold

Gandolf said...

Thats just wonderful Harold .

Does your prognosis take into account the many people who might have had these wonderful things taken away by the faithfulness of christianity.

Does it take into account families separated and kids that dont even see grandparents because of stupidest old religious beliefs that their grandparents believe but parents dont.

What about kids living out in the snow Harold http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/defiant-russian-cult-holed-up-in-cave-for-end-of-the-world-400863.html or being used as sexual play things http://www.sweenytod.com/rno/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1123 or being led to suicide http://orato.com/lifestyles/2008/12/30/i-cleaned-jonestown .These are but a few i have posted there are so many many more!.So many many more go unnoticed as well,anything spoken about and family retribution of punishment is swift.

There is just so much much more to religion and faithful belief than "oh its just so wonderful for bloody Harold and his mates"

We still have warfare today that has it roots set in beliefs Harold .

If you suggest your friends would not do the nice things they do without belonging to a church, then does that suggest they do it out of real love & altruism and because they really care.Or is it more because they feel they have too to gain browny points for their salvation.

It might be big news to you Harold but some people do still do the nice things you speak about even without the need to believe in any sky fairy's.It often depends on what size city they live in and many other things.

Whats more they do it for altruistic reasons that are real ! not because of some book telling them they need to.

Something that i suggest all to often religion might ruin !.Being that beliefs often have mentalities of the "us and them" syndrome and could possibility have even led to some of the separatist attitudes we see in society today.

Maybe the real problem is you need to tell your friends in church to get back out into the real world and start re spreading some real community spirit.It just might be that all the different churches with each and everyone of their little differing better than thou beliefs ,might have brought a whole lot of thoughtlessness and separation with a lack of community spirit to this world.

Which you now try to totally pass off the guilt of on those that dont bother to warm pews.

The problem you speak of is a problem for sure ,but prove to me its happened through lack of belief?.

With me knowing very well of the often uppity snooty type of religious pride amongst many believers,i suggest this nastiness could very well have begun its roots within the walls of the churches themselves.
If colonies and societies have often been built around different prudish better than thou old religious beliefs.

Then how the hell do you really expect society to have become so caring and all inclusive?.

Shygetz said...

Lee: I agree, but I think that evidence and inference should figure into any "equation" about rationality...Utility is in the eye of the beholder, and good luck with any arguments that depend on subjectivity unless you can find common ground in whatever subjective topic you are discussing.

You come so close to the point, just to swerve at the last minute. Yes, utility IS subjective. However, the essential point I am making is that basing your arguments solely on a rational basis is assuming a certain shared subjective morality; namely, you are assuming that both you and your opponent think an idea should first and foremost closely model truth (or reality, for those of you who quarrel with the word "truth"). Not everyone shares your judgment of what an idea should do.

Any time you are trying to convince people of something, you are making a subjective argument. This is true whether or not you stick to empirical facts, as even the most rational argument assumes that the listener should care about rational arguments.

My point is, the assumption that everyone shares your values regarding what an idea should do is false. We are here trying to convince people; we cannot escape subjective argument, whether it be explicit or implicit, as we are trying to convince people of what they should believe. Therefore, we should recognize what works and what doesn't.

Shygetz said...

Eric: How? Note, 'truth' is a concept -- an abstraction.

I am using "truth" here as interchangeable with "reality", which is not an abstract concept. Substitute as suits you.

But second, to go further and suppose in addition both the ability to discern its opposite (untruth) and to judge that truth is preferable to untruth is simply incoherent apart from some conception of rationality...If the moral imperative logically precedes rationality, yet itself cannot be made sense of apart from rationality, then your argument cannot be sustained (because of its obvious -- and vicious --circularity).

I NEVER said the moral judgment cannot "be made sense of" apart from rationality--you are the one who seems to be attached to that odd idea. Reality existed before we had a semi-formalized method for best modeling it. There are STILL methods for modeling reality that are not based on rationality (and they are terribly unsuccessful, yet popular nevertheless). However, just as a naked man can sincerely argue that it would be preferable to have clothes, a man without a method for accurately modeling reality can say it is preferable to accurately model reality. Rationality is known to model reality with imperfect completeness and accuracy. By your argument, one could not say that it would be morally preferable for an idea to perfectly model reality until we had a philosophical method to do so. Such an assertion is absurd.

The point -- again -- is that if the moral imperative cannot be made sense of apart from rationality, then your position is circular; however, if we add that it's also the case that the move from the moral imperative to rationality is non-rational, then -- since rationality is presupposed by the moral imperative -- the purported connection is, at least prima facie, arbitrary.

I think I understand your issue now. You are inserting the term "moral imperative" where I used "moral judgment". The title "moral imperative" links the judgment to Kantian categorical imperatives, which are supposed to be rational in basis. I used the term "moral judgment" advisedly to avoid this issue; I do not insist that moral judgments must be based on "pure practical reason", and I am not a hard moral objectivist. If your personal ethical system finds this to be too alien to contemplate, then consider the judgment that ideas should accurately model reality to be aesthetic in nature rather than moral--the argument remains the same.

Rationality is NOT presupposed by the moral judgment anymore than a compulsion to paint presupposes a paintbrush--one could always use one's finger or other inferior tool out of ignorance, or even use a heretofore unknown superior tool to satisfy the compulsion. The judgment is that the primary purpose of an idea is to model reality. Rational thought is ONE WAY to model reality, and it may not be the best way possible (although I certainly think it is the best way currently). It is surely not the only way that is popular now--"revealed truth" retains quite a bit of popularity when it comes to the category of "methods to discern reality", yet one could still have the moral judgment that an idea should model reality while relying upon revealed truth to formulate those ideas through ignorance of the efficacy of revealed truth.

Shygetz said...

I asked these types of questions here before, but they seem worth repeating: Has not Western philosophy demonstrated the limits of reason / rationality in terms of the metaphysical, rendering it useless in that regard?

Unless you are sending this message via the only computer in the world based upon Revealed Truth, then no, Western philosophy has not rendered reason useless in terms of metaphysics. It has rendered our epistemology incomplete and made a lot of philosophers sweat. But, in the end, evolution has ensured that those that remain tend to be pragmatists at their core, and rationality at the very least allows people to predictably manipulate their shared delusions.

I find that the rationalist is no more interested in truth that those of faith or experience or other types of knowledge, they just over-emphasize objective truth.

No, you find that rationalists do not embrace your particular tribal myth, so you plant the flag of "truth" on your myth and deride any system that does not reach your predetermined conclusion. If Reason is not King, then the King is dead and Reason has been appointed perpetual Crown Regent.

Shygetz said...

Harold: You say that atheist on this board must show that Christianity is not useful. What a silly thing to do. One of the main reasons that Christianity is still around is because it is useful. I find it interesting that science is starting to show that religions including Christianity are good for you, which would show that they are useful.

Oh, I completely agree with you that religions are useful, and I have posted on that topic before. However, as Gandalf pointed out, religion bring in numerous "minuses" to go with the undeniable "pluses" that are the improved social support and extended "family" offered by a religious community. It is possible to generate a close-knit community that offers the benefits while avoiding the worst of the drawbacks (in fact, I am a member of one, although it is still too woo-infused to be ideal).

Anonymous said...

Hi Shygetz,
First off, I do not disagree with you. I just want to elaborate and give my 2 cents.

I see your point, but I don't see much utility
;-)
in a person denying that accurate representation of the real world is a mutually agreeable standard of truth.

In my view, this is the point where philosophy has to give in to pragmatism. For example, there comes a point when the skeptics skeptic has to commit to a given idea whether he says he doubts everything or not, he still has to commit to some ideas and standards, and he has to make value judgments on them to decide what he has a preference for.

So while I'll concede that theoretically, everything can probably be considered subjective, some of those things must be mutually accepted whether one or both parties likes it or not.

Truth as real world representation is one of those things, in my view. Theres just so much utility in it.
;-)

Rationality is based on the moral assumption that a truth is inherently preferable to an untruth.
this is not only rational, it is pragmatic and I would argue "necessary". Should someone argue to the contrary, then logically if they lived that way, they would be limiting the scope of their "successful outcomes" in life.

So while I agree with you, I think you are not giving enough credit to inference from evidence.

And while I'll "take the hit" on being biased in favor of evidential arguments, I think the evidence would show that more successful outcomes are derived from an empirically derived definition of truth, and I think that people can beat around the ideological bush all they want but at crunch time, most of them will go with the evidence.

And as for utility goes, religion is useful, but there is a principle of "the right tool for the right job" and these days, there are better tools.

Its just that the burning in hell thing makes that instinct for self-preservation kick in and it all goes to heaven.
;-)

Jeff Carter said...

To Shygetz:

Western philosophy has not rendered reason useless in terms of metaphysics.

Then which philosopher overcame the limitations of reason in regard to metaphysics as described by Kant in The Critique of Pure Reason?

No, you find that rationalists do not embrace your particular tribal myth...

You can't know what I find because your not inside my mind and can't go there.

If Reason is not King, then the King is dead and Reason has been appointed perpetual Crown Regent.

By a minority, perhaps. I don't know what history or philosophy classes you've had but I suggest you study the romantic, existentialist and phenomenological objections to rationalism - and that's not coming from true believers, that's coming from philosophers and artists.

Anonymous said...

Hi Jeff,
I can see what classes you've taken or prefer in philosophy, and I caution you on overstepping the limits of their boundaries.

as I pointed out above, when philosophy becomes impractical, then it loses its utility and representative power.

Artists are not known for their pragmatism and though I appreciate art quite a bit, it is still highly subjective and
You can't eat it.

meaning that at the end of the day, engineers as a group, will always have a higher income. Thats why I'm not a rock star or artist when I could have been.

I got into engineering through my rock band, and saw that applying principles of sound reasoning to solving other peoples problems was going to make me more comfortable in the long run.

People need to realize that interesting arguments are made sound by being grounded in evidence, in reality, in verifiable data, in accurate data.

Otherwise they are just like a beautiful bird flying around looking hopelessly for a sound place to land.

Jeff Carter said...

But Lee -
Does what you're saying really counter all the arguments made by Kierkegaard, Nietzche, Heidegger?

It seems strange to me that rationalists want to lay claim to the legacy of the Enlightenment but then ignore the reactions against it.

Anonymous said...

Shygetz: "I am using "truth" here as interchangeable with "reality", which is not an abstract concept. Substitute as suits you."

Shygetz, if you're using terms like 'truth' and 'reality' interchangeably (not a very good idea when discussing philosophical issues, btw), and if you're not using 'reality' as a concept, then you must be simply referring to what actually exists or to our sense perceptions of it. If that is so, then what sense can be made of your initial claim, viz. "Rationality is based on the moral assumption that a truth is inherently preferable to an untruth."

1.Rationality is based on the moral assumption that reality (in itself, as it exists independently of our concepts of it) is inherently preferable to unreality (what doesn't exist).

2. Rationality is based on the moral assumption that reality (our sense perceptions) is inherently preferable to unreality (what we don't sense).

I think it's clear that this is far too confused to be of any use whatsoever.

Anonymous said...

Hi Jeff,
It seems strange to me that rationalists want to lay claim to the legacy of the Enlightenment but then ignore the reactions against it.
you have presumed we are ignoring them. How did you arrive at that?

Anonymous said...

Hi Eric,
I think it's clear that this is far too confused to be of any use whatsoever.
maybe to you, but not to me and shygetz, and maybe not to some other people as well.

"moral" is one of those words whose meaning is hard to define, therefore, its use as a premise can lead to misuderstandings of arguments.

Anonymous said...

Hi Eric,
another thing,
Shygetz, if you're using terms like 'truth' and 'reality' interchangeably (not a very good idea when discussing philosophical issues, btw),
That seems to be a very narrow scope in your viewpoint, doesn't it really depend on the context?

Jeff Carter said...

you have presumed we are ignoring them. How did you arrive at that?

Lee,
I arrived at that because, despite repeated attempts to explain the existence of these objections to rationalism, the issue is either a) ignored or b) skirted.

And that's just from the ones that seem knowledgeable. Most commenters don't seem to have a clue about the philosophies I mentioned - romanticism, existentialism, phenomenology. As I stated previously, they seem to be painfully unaware that the time of rationalism is passed and that deep thinking men have rather serious objections to it.

Again, this seems really odd coming from a group exhorting us to reason and intelligence.

Anonymous said...

Hi Jeff,
while philosophy is a hobby of mine, I'm no expert and I can't think of any serious threat to the type of rationalism I'm talking about.

Maybe you'd give an overview of what you think are the threats to rationalism?
I know I'd appreciated some guidance in looking into what you're referring to.

Jeff Carter said...

Hi Lee -
Fair Enough.

Start with learning about Immanuel Kant - probably THE philosopher of the last 400 years - and his Critique of Pure Reason. (It's an incredibly obtuse book so I would start out reading commentary on it. W.T. Jones has a good review in Vol. IV of his History of Western Philosophy) This was the beginning of a seismic shift in philosophy similar to the Copernican revolution in astronomy. Basically, Kant described the qualities (categories) of the mind that make knowledge, understanding and REASON possible. There he sets forth that the nature of reason does not allow for its use in metaphysics.

Following Kant was Hegel who laid out his incredible rational system of philosophy. Learn why Kierkegaard and Nietzche objected to Hegel: Kierkegaard because the essence of man cannot be captured in a rational, objective system and Nietzche because what moves the world is not reason but the Will to Power.

Read about Romanticism. Here, even wikipedia is a decent start: Romanticism is "a reaction against the scientific rationalization of nature". Imagine that. A reaction against reason. How could that happen?

There's more, but I would also learn about Wittgenstein and the Logical Positivists. I think you might enjoy Wittgenstein because he deals with linguistic analysis which has a relation to IDQ. The LPs made fools of themselves by positing this statement: Truth is what can be scientifically verified. The trouble was, that very statement could not be so verified. Finally, Wittgenstein said in the Tractatus: "What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence." This may have relation to our other conversation about language, myth and IDQ.

Looking forward to exploring these things with you.

Anonymous said...

Hi Jeff,
while I have visited wikipedia, and the stanford philosophy website to look into what you are referring to, it still is not clear what your problem is with rationality.

maybe we are at odds on the meaning of rationality, rational, rationalist, etc.

I'm talking about the rational process, the actual reasoning from premises, and data.

I am pretty well versed in philosophy of mind, which is related to phenomenology, I have been exposed to existentialism and agree that some of it seems to have merit, but Romanticism doesn't ever seem to have been a philosophy, but always a "lifestyle choice" that produces artists and such.

The problem with philosophy of mind is that, in a nutshell, no one knows what they are talking about. technology hasn't let come up with a good non-destructive way to study the brain.

Existentialism has become more rational according to the Stanford site:
"Even if such writers [John Haugeland , Michael Gelven (1990, Christine Korsgaard, Richard Moran ,Thomas Nagel] tend to proceed with more confidence in the touchstone of rationality than did the classical existentialists, their work operates on the terrain opened up by the earlier thinkers."


So rationality, or -ism, -ist evidently is not so bad after all. In fact I hope you realize that you necessarily must use rational processes based in empiricism on a day to day basis to survive.

I will concede that we each have a bias in favor of philosophy that supports our world view and we have a value system conflict. Your value for things non-rational supports or derives from your goal of maintaining your world view and mine derives from being an engineer. Since I was a christian and engineer, then used my analysis techniques on my religion and lost it, I'd be interested to see how your "philosophy" relates to your christianity.

I found that my "way of thinking" or "philosophy" supports problem solving more than it does the supernatural and it earns me a living.

it seems to me though that at the heart of all philosophy is the rational process, otherwise, it wouldn't make sense, and I'm not talking "make sense" in a rational way, I'm talking about make sense in the emotional signaling way where a fact or claim "just seems right" "intuitively".

Consider this claim,
if you want your car transmission worked on, you are better off taking it to a shaman than a mechanic.
Doesn't that "just feel wrong" "intuitively"? ;-)

Philip R Kreyche said...

Jeff,

How does the existence of anti-rational philosophies mean that rationalism has been proven false? They exist, yes, but are they true?

Just because the Romantics didn't like the idea that the universe is run on chemical reactions and gravity instead of magic, doesn't mean that they were right.

Jeff Carter said...

Lee and Philip,
Let me try to get to the heart of all your questions by asking you this - what do you think Nietzche's point was?

Anonymous said...

Did nietzche only have one point?
What is your point, that is the question.

What is YOUR problem with rationality?

Jeff Carter said...

Lee,
I have many problems with rationalism, but here I will discuss a main contention. Nietzche was a very fine atheist who made no pretense about the use of rationalism in regard to morality. With the overthrow of the Absolute, there is no foundation and no need to resort to rationalism to make up some system of morality for us all to adhere to just to appease your conscience. Morality is what I say it is - since the Will to Power, not reason is what moves the universe. Any kind of statements like "We all want our children to be happy" or "morality is seeking the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people" is really just sentimental crap.

Any attempt to establish morality on a rational basis is unconvincing. If I want to do what I want to do, you have no rational means to persuade me, and that right there ought to highlight a major shortcoming of reason.

Nietzche was an honest atheist who saw no need to cloak himself in rationalism to make his beliefs respectable.

You don't need rationalism, so why cling to it?

BTW, having a background in science does not dictate a life of reason or preclude sensitivities to the arts. I am a chemical engineer.

Philip R Kreyche said...

What gives you the authority to make Nietsche the standard of all non-theistic philosophy? It'd be like me claiming that Fred Phelps is the standard of Christianity.

And those maxims you gave are not "sentimental crap," at all, you're just trying to stir us up. If a moral system works for a society, what else needs to be said? If two people are on an island, and neither of them believe in a God, it still benefits them to have an idea of rights and wrongs that they agree not to violate, because it protects them from each other. That's it. You don't need objective rights and wrongs, just rights and wrongs that work. What if people disagree, you ask? Then they either start a revolution to change the system of morality or leave for a place that accompdates their morals. Haven't you taken a history class before?

Because if you claim that one needs a Universal Standard for morality, what good is such a Standard if it cannot make itself known to everyone that it applies to? What good is a treasure that no one has found, yet every other person claims to know the location of without being able to prove it to the other?

Anonymous said...

Hi Jeff,
I think you need to think that through a little more.

Philip is right and to expand on that I will say that the "tit-for-tat" strategy is a raw form of morality that emerges from the self-interest of two agents and has been demonstrated to be the most efficient and effective at deriving a successful outcome for both parties.

I don't imagine you'd be a very good chemical engineer doing things according your "gut" or your whims.