I've Been Commenting on the "God is Imaginary" Forum
If you want to know what I've been up to recently I've spent some time over at God is Imaginary. I stopped commenting on page nine. The thread degenerated with some ad hominems (as sometimes happens), but it picked up a bit after that. Enjoy.
14 comments:
When it comes to these kinds of forums I find the critical thinking skills of the Christians who visit them to be quite pathetic. I know we skeptics don't have a corner on rationality, but when it comes to defending the Christian faith I just can't help noticing the obvious and abysmal lack of these skills coming from Christians.
I think logic classes should be required at every level in American schools including our colleges. No one should be allowed to graduate from a college without having taken one.
why don't you come to my forums? I have some really intelligent atheists there who would probably support you. But we don't have ping contests there. It's all very thoughtful, good group of people on bot sides. It's remarkable board.
http://www.doxa.ws/forum/
I'm well familiar with the types of arguments one gets, but occasionally one gets a philosopher that can bring more to the table. These forums have served their purposes though, and Christians who doubt their faith can turn to them, and take the next step. By being a member you can also encourage them to read your book. I once posted frequently with many of those posters at "Why Won't God Heal Amputees?" , but it became time consuming. AiGBusted was also a member.
John-looking at your background and reading this blog, I have to wonder why you are investing so much precious time and energy in your life to disprove the existence of the creator (God)?
This blog just screams that verse from 2 Timothy 3:7- "always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth". How true this is in these discussions.
Faith does not emerge from logic classes, human scientific study, or those ever important "critical thinking skills" you state.
You're missing the whole boat. It's a separate process that exists in your spiritual side -not a debate forum.
Reading about Christianity and completing theological studies on religion is a head exercise. You are disconnected from it-reading about it is not diving in and EXPERIENCING IT.
There are many many people who have had the guts to cross over and take that proverbial "leap of faith". I do believe that these are those true believers you mention you have such a hard time debating or discussing with. The reason you cannot debate with them....once you cross the line and see God's amazing power at work live and real in your life---you never can come back.
Yes-God cannot be placed in a human box you construct. He does not fit into a scientific formula that everyone can easily understand. He simply doesn't need to. He is the author of all.
You have to "seek" to find him. He desires you to come to Him from your free will. Provide proof to everyone and what's the incentive to truly seek Him out and have a relationship with Him? Where does free will enter? You have to surrender and seek him in your spirit and not with pitiful human formulas and scientific method.
What an eternal disservice you are doing by leading folks down a road away from the truth. Dude, if you struggle with these demons, consider doing it in the privacy of your own head and heart.
What you speak is not the truth.
Spiritual,
Everything in your post (and more) is exhaustively explained in John's book. I suggest you read it.
In the meantime, I will sum up your comment:
When it comes to making the most important decision in your life (whether or not Christianity is true), you're not allowed to use your intellect.
The fact is, Spiritual, everything you say is true..that is, IF your god exists. But that is what is up for debate. We can't use anything you said to answer that question because everything you said assumes already that your god concept is true.
And just for fun, let me use a Christian apologetic tactic here: If we cannot use reason to solve the god question, then your suggestions are self-refuting because we'd have to use reason to conclude that you are right about how to seek god.
:)
Spiritual, you realize that Loftus is a former Christian, right? He HAS "experienced" Christianity...and found it wanting.
Spiritual,
Brandon Muller made 1 of my points. The despised 'wisdom of man' is what you are using to make your points.
If an all powerful God desires our salvation, then we are saved. Or conversely, if any of us are not saved, then it is not the will of an all powerful God that we be saved. All the 'free will' versus 'robots' talk assumes God is not powerful enough to allow free will without sinfulness as a necessary concomitant. Of course my words here, as well as anyone's apologetic argument against them, are all 'man's wisdom'. Unfortunately, that's all we have.
If you would just EXPERIENCE Allah, you would give up your infidel beliefs.
If I were going to engage in such a q&a, I would definitely place a predetermined time limit on my participation. It is clear that discussion with some people becomes counterproductive after a time.
I do think your opinions on the lack of a global flood would be interesting, John Loftus.
I was about to comment on Spiritual's self-refuting argument when I noticed Brandon had beaten me to it. Oh, well...
Spritual, maybe you can explain something I've never yet seen addressed:
Is it true that, if you have a relationship with Jesus, you are absolved from believing what he says?
I've met many people who tell me they've "got the relationship," and when I bring up something their Bible incontrovertably teaches, which they find abhorrent, they'll answer with, "ooooh, I don't believe that..."
Maybe John is guilty of seeing only what he wants to see at that forum - it's called, "Is God Imaginary?" ;-)
As the poster above has stated, the forum is called "Is God Imaginary?", not "God Is Imaginary". The IGI forum not only welcomes believers, but is largely staffed by them. Fun place.
The URL is http://isgodimaginary.com/forum
CARPET BOMBING!!!
and the lesson from all of this:
the atheist sins not only against God, but also against man...
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Atheist:
have you for but a moment considered that you have adopted a position against 98% of the human race, both past and present?
do you think you are RIGHT and they are all WRONG?
WRONG
now listen to this arrogant puffed up son of a bitch....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilWM7jIEN_k
little scientist geek who would try to usurp God Himself!!!
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these little insignificant fools try to use science to destroy every mystery in the universe...
but not this one!
First of all: Nostradamus demolishes "atheism"
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wait, wait...
I forgot something...
you little shits even talk about me....
GOATS ON FIRE....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssFaIhJkLsk
LIBERATION!
Sing from the rooftops:
"Atheism is dead!"
http://www.conspiracycafe.net/forum/index.php?/topic/25104-atheist-ap...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK50So-yYRU
BYE BYE ATHEISM
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Let's hear what "SNOPES" and "DAVID EMERY" have to say about NOSTRADAMUS & 9.11
http://urbanlegends.about.com/cs/historical/a/nostradamus.htm
and
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/nostradamus.asp
http://urbanlegends.about.com/cs/historical/a/nostradamus_2.htm
"Once again, a very few words actually written by Nostradamus — individual lines drawn from two disparate quatrains, in fact — have been taken out of context, rearranged, and supplemented with made-up lines by person(s) unknown to make them seem pertinent to the event. The result, as before, is pure bunk. Not even Nostradamus would want to take credit for this "prediction." Anyone else want to have a go?"
Ok, I'll give it a shot...
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