Should Skeptics Send Their Children to Church on Sundays?
Last night I talked with a skeptic who wants his children to be exposed to Christianity in order for them to learn about it and to decide for themselves. So he's sending them to some church on Sundays. Is this a good strategy? NO, not at all, for several reasons. There are other alternatives. I have an alternative proposal for him and others like him.
Let me suggest to these skeptics what they ought to do. If they want to truly expose their children to religious ideas then they should send their children to different churches for a month at a time, or more. Have them attend them in a random order. Have them attend a Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Seventh-Day Adventist, United Church of Christ, Congregational, Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic, Unitarian, Disciples of Christ, and Non-instrumental Church of Christ churches. And don't forget a Jewish Synagogue, a Muslim Mosque, a snake handling service, a Pentecostal healing service, and so on and so on, and so on and so on. If this skeptical parent truly wants to expose his children to the religious ideas of his culture then give them the whole range of choices to choose from. And don’t forget to take these children to atheist meet-ups, and freethought gatherings too. Then these children can truly choose for themselves. Then these children can be truly educated about these ideas. And then these children will most assuredly choose to be skeptics.
Nothing but total exposure to the varying options will educate his children. This is what Daniel Dennett proposes with regard to educating our youths in American schools, but will probably never fly because of First Amendment concerns. When placed on a equal playing field religious options are no options at all. THAT’s why I love Bill Maher’s movie Religulous, because it does just that.
One danger in sending our children to the same church over and over is that children are easily swayed to believe what an authority figure tells them in a community of happy looking, but deluded, people. Take for instance Norman Geisler, known as the "Dean of Christian Apologetics." He was raised in an atheist home, but because of a bus ministry he went to church every Sunday for nine years and was swayed to accept and then later defend Christianity. His parents thought the same thing as this skeptic, but they were wrong to do so.
Let me suggest to these skeptics what they ought to do. If they want to truly expose their children to religious ideas then they should send their children to different churches for a month at a time, or more. Have them attend them in a random order. Have them attend a Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Seventh-Day Adventist, United Church of Christ, Congregational, Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic, Unitarian, Disciples of Christ, and Non-instrumental Church of Christ churches. And don't forget a Jewish Synagogue, a Muslim Mosque, a snake handling service, a Pentecostal healing service, and so on and so on, and so on and so on. If this skeptical parent truly wants to expose his children to the religious ideas of his culture then give them the whole range of choices to choose from. And don’t forget to take these children to atheist meet-ups, and freethought gatherings too. Then these children can truly choose for themselves. Then these children can be truly educated about these ideas. And then these children will most assuredly choose to be skeptics.
Nothing but total exposure to the varying options will educate his children. This is what Daniel Dennett proposes with regard to educating our youths in American schools, but will probably never fly because of First Amendment concerns. When placed on a equal playing field religious options are no options at all. THAT’s why I love Bill Maher’s movie Religulous, because it does just that.
One danger in sending our children to the same church over and over is that children are easily swayed to believe what an authority figure tells them in a community of happy looking, but deluded, people. Take for instance Norman Geisler, known as the "Dean of Christian Apologetics." He was raised in an atheist home, but because of a bus ministry he went to church every Sunday for nine years and was swayed to accept and then later defend Christianity. His parents thought the same thing as this skeptic, but they were wrong to do so.
36 comments:
"One danger in sending our children to the same church over and over is that children are easily swayed to believe what an authority figure tells them in a community of happy looking, but deluded, people."
I agree, not to mention how kids are influenced by their peers and wanting to fit in.
Point your friend over to Dale McGowan and his excellent books, blog, and now YouTube videos. Dale is in my humble opinion the foremost expert on non-religious parenting. A savior, if you will :)
Church sucks! Do not send your children to be brainwashed and mentally tortured.
My understanding is that Unitarian Universalist congregations usually have learning about other religious traditions including possibly visits as part of their Sunday School.
If it is simplest to send the kids one place that might be it. The key item is probably to talk with the children about what they are experiencing.
My father sent my 2 sisters and I to church because, even though he was an atheist, he always regretted not being able to debate properly with believers because of "lack of knowledge about their religion" (his words).
So he decided we should judge for ourselves by being exposed to Church on Sunday, religious classes at school as well as catechism, etc.
(I suspect coming from a strongly practicing catholic family also came into play - not wanting to upset them)
To this day (I'm 38), I disapprove very strongly of what he did. He, on the other hand, still believes he did the right thing.
Even though I'm an atheist and already had serious doubts about religion at school, the brainwashing still got in there and the task of erasing it was incredibly difficult. The odd reflex still rears its ugly head now an then, such as imagining for a fraction of a second that some relative "up there" is watching me or thinking about making the sign of the cross when entering a church.
As for debating, it was no help at all. And, in most cases, debate is impossible anway.
As an Atheist with a Christian girlfriend I have sat through a church session on more than one occasion. I don't know why anybody would want to go through that. Some of the stuff they say is painfully ignorant if not just stupid. Thankfully I have an Iphone to keep me company while I'm in that room full of sheep.
That idea is just insane. I do not believe in stealing, but should I send mu kids into a store to shoplift so they can feel what it is like and choose for themselves? I know Santa is a lie to I was always honest about it being a pretend thing we did for fun. We never did the toothfairy thing cuz sneaking into their room was going too far. I don't beleive in the volcano god but when visiting a place where people did, I might tell them about it. Religion is a lie and church is creepy. What are you gonna tell them about COMMUNION??? How totally sick IS that concept, anyway? Why expose them to it? Gonna teach them making decisions by pendulum and voodoo chicken entrail spells too? It is fine to tell them about the belief system and to teach them to be tolerant of people who beleive it, but it is NOT okay to make them participate in something you do not believe in. Play some of the pretty music for them if you want, but don't make them go and be part of it. They should also have the confidence to be honest and sending them in there will force them to either be confrontational, which would be disrespectful to those that believe or it would force them to hide your views and maybe thiers about how silly it is, which is a disrespectful thing to ask them to do. This is wrong in so many ways I cannot begin to express all of them here. It makes me angry that someone would so lack the confidence in their views that there is not god that they would want to expose their kids to it. That is just gross and wrong and mean.
If you are a Christian and uncertain WHICH denomination has it 'most right', this sort of shopping' is something you should do with your kids. But if you KNOW it is all bullshit, you should have the confidence to teach that to you kids. You should not muddy up their thinking with that nonsense and let them be taught stuff they have to be untaught or unlearn on their own. That is just cruel and confusing.
What reasons does this person have for wanting to send his kids? There are other ways to learn about spritituality and let them decide if it something they want to explore on their own. Like reading books and family discussions. But if there are other reasons, such as fitting in, social, ritual, and the like, let's talk about them and how he can help meet them for his kids without sending them to a church he does not believe in. What needs is he trying to meet? How can they be BETTER met than this?
When placed on a equal playing field religious options are no options at all.
yes, because an equal playing field is already a biased artificial situation.
Fact is, you can't raise children in an equal playing field. If the parents are skeptics, the children will be disposed to skepticism from their most important influence no matter what.
here's what might be even closer to an equal playing field. The parents should act as if they were devoted followers of all those religions at different periods of time. But even that wouldn't work since you can't truely follow Jesus or Mohamed if you aren't intending to persevere. And you aren't really following those religions if you aren't seriously dedicated to raising your children in those religions.
Religion, especially (or at least) the theistic ones is not just about a belief system. They are personal and relational and some relationships can't just be tried on for size.
After all, just how many people do you think your kids should sleep with to determine which one would be the most loving spouse? While some people are depraved enough to think it actually should be several, lets consider the greater life of the family. How many children should they procreate with all the candidates to determine which would make the better parent?
Church is great. My brain has always needed a little bit of washing.
I posted without surveying the responses here, and I'd say this thread is great in that so many of the atheists here take issue with this attempt at raising someone to be "neutral" and "objective". No issue more greatly proves the impossibility of perfect neutral objectivity than this one. Biases cannot be eliminated. They can only be examined and measured, even shifted or exchanged, but we will always look at the world through lenses.
Just make sure it's a healthy well ballanced one.
I prefer Reformed myself. We have a great time at my church.
J.E.R. kids whose parents have lied to them have a great time playing with the toys from santa on christmas morning. eventually they figure it out and get the idea that a little dishonesty is okay for amusement's sake. kids who get toys honestly from their parents without the santa myth can have just as great a time without the dishonesty and sloppy thinking involved in the mythology.
YOU, J.E.R., might have just as great a time at a nature club or a knitting club or a carpentry club or a book discussion group or a regular golf group or simply at bi-weekly friday afternoon neighborhood dinners. you don't need to meet your enterainment and social needs via a mythology.
The word that really bothers me is "send". As in, the kids go, and the parents do not?
No. That's unfair. If you want to expose your kids to religion, go with them, and talk about the service afterward -- discussing the inconsistencies and fallacious reasoning, and the implicit social conditioning of ritual behaviors.
Nope, I just enjoy fulfilling my need for worship. Worshiping ,as I see it, the true and living God. I don't go to church to be entertained. I like having my brain washed. I've tried all those other things and they don't satisfy me like The Holy One does.
If it works for you that's great.
Someone else mentioned Unitarians. I understand that Unitarian Sunday School is really a course in comparative religions. I've been in a Unitarian church twice, both times in the mid-70s when my ex and I were hanging our art work for a display and when we removed it 6 wks later. The first time, instead of a sermon, a member spoke pro-nuclear power, whereas the week before someone had spoken against it. The next time, each member who wanted to speak was asked to bring a poem, quotation, or short story to share. I spoke to a Jewish member with no synagogue within 50 miles. She felt accepted and comfortable there. Several couples were of different religions, others were skeptics, agnostics, or atheists. After the service, a philosophical discussion group met. I had been a doubter since the age of 12 and an atheist (at that time) for more than 15 years. At the time, I thought if I were required to attend church, I could feel comfortable there. When I remarried, a Unitarian minister performed the ceremony at my parents' home. He helped us write something that would not totally offend my husband's Catholic nor my Protestant family, yet something two atheists could live with. (Our first choice was a JP, but rules prevented JPs from charging more than $5; no one would travel from their offices for such a small fee.) The Unitarian minister told us to pay what we could afford and gladly took our $50 (in the mid 80s.)
Should skeptics send their children to church on sundays? Of course yes you should, being a skeptic, for there is is a huge difference between skepticism as I understand it. To me a skeptic is just that, a skeptic, since he/she has yet to figure out which is true or not and he/she is in the process of doing so, certainly this is not a bad idea especially when a parent accompany his/her kids to church.
However, I have a different opinion to parents who are Atheists, who are 100% convinced Christainity is false. Why even have a slightest fuss about sending your kids to a cause you're sure is false and dangerous? As far as I know, most Atheists believes in ideas that have only proven scientifically. So, put all of your energy and effort and recourses to train your sons and daughters scientific methods to reach a decision. Teach them these methods in the morning, afternoon and evening. Teach them to hold these at their hearts. They'll not forget them as the grow up, and they'll be grateful to you when they are old. Learn som skills from people of religion. Let me speak of my own familly.
I'm born from perhaps the most fundamentalist Christian familly on Earth. My Dad used to tell me when I was young "Edson, you're my first born and wish all your best in Education, Finance and Familly. As to my best, I'll help you achive all your life goals, make sure you dont miss to tell me yor goals. But there is one thing, I plead to you. At this, you'll either send me to graves with a sad face or a happy one. Edson, learn to love and trust Jesus with all your body, mind and spirit. Read the bible and meditate about it. Focus all your attention about these things and if you do it, Son, that will be the best gift you give me and this is the best gift I give you". Well, to me those words bored me for quite sometimes for he spoke them repeatedly now and then and I was a teenage at the time and my attention was about girls.
To cut a long story short, I'm now 27 and no longer live with my familly any more. I love Jesus more than anything else more than anything else at the moment. As far as I can think, I have no intention whatsoever of getting out of may faith. At the moment I'm in a state of confusion. It is just last month I graduated my Masters in Technical field and signed a contract with one Company and looks like financially the future is great. At the same time, I feel deep inside, a strong zeal about my faith and would love to serve God of Christainity full time (which will require some formal Theological Training). I'm recalled of Paul's dilemma: He was eagerly and joyfully anticipating death so as to be with Christ, at the same time eager to live to continue the work. Whatever joy, peace and strength I have now, I'll always be grateful to my Great Dad.
In telling that, I wanted atheists learn about how religious people do about their life. That's why religion is so successful. That's why Jews have stayed jews despite diaspora persecution. Atheists, as long as it is in your capability, never, never expose your kids in a dangerous and false philosophy of Christianity.
To clarify more on my comment, some people, christians and non christians have often wondered why biblical God too often hurled harshest threats against Israelites who didn't keep the prescribed Law that he will punish sons for the sins of their fathers, even more to the third and fourth generation!
Please, I do not intend to rationalize this apparently irrational and barbaric justice system, however, if I were to reason why God (as always we Christians do when we read of some Old Testament difficulties) often used this threat, it seems to me to be a character of God to hold responsible a man with his descendants. A pattern I can see with the Adam and Eve story which damned humankind to death, a very tragic event of stoning Achan and his entire family, King Saul and his familly and many other examples we read in the OT really confirm my conclusion, a conclusion which also hold true when God blesses. In God blessing King David such that God went to the length of promising an everlasting royal status in his lineage, to an extent that an everlasting King Jesus is of David's ancestry!
What do I learn from this? That the biggest challenge in life for a person is to raise kids. Any slightest mistake could damn your future generation and any slightest morally right judgement could save your future generation. Raising kids is not a carrier to mess with especially if you are a skeptic or agnostic. You dont know which way is right and you are confused and rest assured, your kids will also be a confused bunch of whimps whether you like it or not. It seems to be a principle, call it of Nature. As for Christians, the way forward is simple: Raise you kids in the way of the Lord, and they'll not depart in it when they are old.
May God bless ya'll.
Usually when some kid spent the night at our house on a Sat. night they'd get up with the rest of us and go to Church. Some kids who weren't "church goer's" or "Christians" liked it and would continue to go. Some didn't. But I think the kid should have some say in the decision. Are you Atheists afraid we will brain wash your kid before you do?
DenCol
Some things will never change, but it's good to see you back.
Edson
Good stuff!
Dueces, feeno
Friends,
If our kids receive no spiritual nurture when they're young, there should be no surprise,depending on individual temperment of course, when as young adults searching for ultimate meaning, and feeling starved spiritually, they might just fall prey to any abusive, and unbalanced cult that is out there.
It is absolutely wrong to teach falsehoods to children, no matter how harmless those falsehoods are thought to be.
Children depend on their parents to teach them the way things ARE and not beliefs taken on faith. So, don't indoctrinate them in anything that is not known to be true.
They will form their own beliefs in their own time no matter what you do - unless you indoctrinate them and steal that belief formation from them. You should not allow someone else to steal it from them either.
No matter what happens in their life, and a lot of things could and will, but they should never be able to say that you lied to them.
To indoctrinate children is a form of child abuse. Their formative years should be free of such things.
One of the dangers of childhood indoctrination is that you may change your belief or non-belief afterward, then what? Confusion is what - or maybe worse.
Feeno: Are you Atheists afraid we will brain wash your kid before you do?
Two things here Feeno, first is that children are impressionable and can be easily brain washed by trusted leaders. Secondly, atheists do not brain wash there children, they teach them how to think critically. It's that critical thinking that keeps them from being brain washed.
Grace:If our kids receive no spiritual nurture when they're young, there should be no surprise,depending on individual temperment of course, when as young adults searching for ultimate meaning, and feeling starved spiritually, they might just fall prey to any abusive, and unbalanced cult that is out there.
Again, teaching critical thinking skills will prevent a lot of young people from falling prey to such cults. Besides the concept of spirituality and thinking one can be spiritually starved is an assumption on your part.
I'm all for sending children to church. Where else are they going to learn self-loathing and psychotic fear of afterlife retribution?
John, there are multiple pitfalls in your plan to expose a child to multiple religious organizations with the hope that they will discern for themselves the best choice. If your $100 silk tie gets a stain on it, what will you use to clean it if you have no prior opinion or experience in stain removing? If your approach is to try laundry detergent, acetone, sulfuric acid, lemon juice, ammonia, and bleach, you will undoubtedly destroy the tie. If your children perceive that their old man doesn’t have a clue and are embarrassed in front of their friends when you appear with your ugly-looking ruined tie, then they’ll look for another mentor who can teach them. You might as well tell your children up front, “My beliefs and morals are all relative so I have nothing to impart to you. Find out for yourself.” The orphans that roam the streets of Rio de Janeiro are in the same predicament.
Anthony,('sup home slice)
INMO, You don't have to teach any one to believe in God. They just do. As I said in a previous post you can go to the remotest parts of the earth and find some "Bush Pygmy" worshiping some type type of Deity. The reason being is that God has set eternity in the hearts of
man.(Ecc. 3:11)
If everything is left to itself, you end up with what we got now. A whole bunch of people who believe in a God, and then a small minority who don't believe in a God.
Please don't be offended I know your making huge strides, Last I heard you've zoomed up to 3 percent of the world's population.
Also, there are way more kids that go to school every day in this country who are taught Evolution than go to Church and are taught Creationism. Which by the way I have no problem with, I just wish they teach it along side of creative design.
Also, most of those crazy brain washing fundies spend a whopping 30 seconds a day, (usually before a meal) praying to God. But their kids listen to and watch secular music and TV etc. all hours of the day. Yet them little bastards still believe in God.
Dueces, feeno
Edson wrote,
Raising kids is not a carrier to mess with especially if you are a skeptic or agnostic. You dont know which way is right and you are confused and rest assured, your kids will also be a confused bunch of whimps whether you like it or not.
HA! I love it. That was probably the best line in this thread. You skeptics and agnostics are a confused bunch of whimps with no business even having kids! I'm surpised God even allows you to breathe. We should probably round you all up and put you on an island, and stick all the gay people there with you!
If you were smart and believed in God like me you'd see how stupid you are. Stupid and weak. And homosexual.... probably a democrat too. Dumb atheist. But, hey that's not my opinion, I'm just saying what God thinks of you. I actually love all people just like God tells me too... even stupid, dumb atheists. Can't you see that God loves you and wants you to be kind and loving...err... I mean, strong and smart like me! All you have to do is pray this simple prayer:
Dear God,
I'm a dumbass atheist who used to think that empirical observation, experimentation, testing, control groups, double-blind expermintation, and rigorous study lead to beneficial knowledge, like cures to diseases such as cholera, typhoid fever, malaria, small pox, organ diseses, etc. I used to think that science lead us to inventing technologies that actually improved the quality of life and gave us things like computers, medical equipment, television, and the internet. Now I know that all this knowledge is worthless, and that if we would have invested all the time we wasted in scientific pursuits on praying, we would be in such a better place. What has science ever given us? The majority of scientists only grow more skeptical as they learn about the real world. Many of them turn into agnostics because of there evil pursuit of truth and knowledge...err science. You are the only truth and knowledge I need, and if you wanted me to know anything about science you'd of put it in the Bible. So now, I repent and ask Jesus into my heart. I will no longer seek to understand the world through empirical observation or experimentation. I will rely on the Bible which tell us everything we need know!
Amen
Dumb atheists...
Toby wrote: I'm a dumbass atheist [sarcasm] who used to think that empirical observation, experimentation, testing, control groups, double-blind expermintation...
What do you use as a control group when dating supposed 3 billion year-old rocks?
Toby wrote: ...and rigorous study lead to beneficial knowledge... [cures for:] cholera, typhoid fever, malaria, small pox, organ diseses, etc...[and new technologies:] computers, medical equipment, television, and the internet.
Toby’s sarcastic and erroneous insinuation here is that advancement comes through strict empiricism and materialist-based world-views. Think again.
Evolution is baseless and quite incredible. – John Ambrose Fleming (electrical engineer, physicist, inventor of vacuum tube)
An interesting note is that Fleming helped found the "Evolution Protest Movement" in 1932 which later became the Creation Science Movement, making it the oldest creationist organization in the world.
toby, tell me one thing praying ever got done?
DenCol is banned; he knows it but keeps commenting. He can justify this since he follows a "higher law." This means he can ignore anything that his experience tells him to. Maybe his experience will even someday tell him to kill someone like Abraham thought he was supposed to do with Isaac, and then not hear a voice in his head to stop! Ignore the troll please.
He's a person who is ignorant about his own ignorance.
I wrote about people like Dennis Collis right here.
Alan,
You are a silly one but I have to tip my hat to your consistency.
Goprairie,
My real thoughts on prayer are posted in my most recent blog at tobysite.blogspot.com
Alan,
Thanks for recognizing the sarcasm. However, I found the rest of your comments and links to be way too intellectual for me. All that science gobble-dee-gook is way too complex for me.
Toby that was great stuff on prayer.
But I would like to also recommend the Christian Missionary Deconverted by Tribe video. http://tobysite.blogspot.com/2009/04/deconverted-missionary.html
I apologize for being off topic.
Thanks Andre! Yeah, I think I first found the video on the deconverted missonary here! Good stuff though.
Oops! Guess I missed that one.
An acquaintance of mine is a principal at a Christian school. He has a problem with agnostic parents who want to enrol their children at his school. As far as he's concerned, Christian education is an experience that parents should share with their children, so they can't force something upon them that they don't believe in themselves. There should be a consistency between what happens at school and also at home. On the other hand, I know a few Christian teachers, and were they to read the tone of some of the comments here, they'd absolutely reject any suggestion that they're brainwashing kids. Such comments are very condescending. Jesus never said, "Remove your brain and follow me."
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