Bruce Droppings is Gone
A fellow pastor who left the fold has moved on with his life. He's no longer blogging. I'll miss him but I wish him well. His Blog was a very good one.
I have decided to permanently stop blogging. The reasons are many and quite personal....The Church robbed me of so much of my life and I have no intention of allowing her to have one more moment of my time. LinkSometimes I feel the same way. What the hell am I doing here at this computer when there is a life to be lived?
33 comments:
The Church didn't rob Bruce of anything. He choose that path for himself, now he has chosen a different route. Also I notice from his letter he doesn't want anything but unconditional love, wow, welcome to the club. I want to do what I want to do and don't want to be held accountable for anything, yet I deserve your unconditional love? I like Bruce, I hope the best for him, but he kinda of reminds me of Brett Favre, I wonder how many more times he will retire and or un-retire from blogging/Christianity? Best of luck Bruce. Peace to you. feeno
Hi John,
you should keep doing it to keep your mind active and ward off Alzheimers.
;-)
Besides that, there are other benefits to challenging yourself, pushing your limits, putting constraints on yourself, utilizing discipline, trying to remain civil, trying to remain nurturing when some commenters are obviously doing all they can to push our buttons.
ON, ON John! The games afoot!
feeno,
on the contrary, when a confidence man persuades you to redirect your resources outside of your best interest, he is violating the trust of the participant, and violating the logic of reciprocity.
The church does the same thing.
Promising there is a god, claiming that it is a matter of faith not evidence, but "heres a little circumstantial evidence if it makes you feel better [nudge, nudge, wink, wink], say no more!", claiming that god wants a relationship but on his terms which amounts to redefining the meaning of relationship, claiming that the results of chance are in fact the workings of God, taking advantage of all kinds of cognitive biases to sustain the story of the super being that only marginally interacts with you, like the paranoid that can dream up all kinds of evidence to 'prove' he has a case,
yada, yada, yada...
Show me God, I want to know if its Yahweh, Jesus, Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu, or some other god I can't think of right now
yada, yada, yada....
I've got a good deal on a Bentley, you interested? I'll send you a routing number to deposit the money to and you'll have your Bentley shortly thereafter, if you're game.....
John said...
"Sometimes I feel the same way. What the hell am I doing here at this computer when there is a life to be lived?"
My reply...
John, it is precisely for this reason (and the futility of arguing with theists) that I have come to dedicate most of my time to movie reviews and other journalistic endeavors that I enjoy.
I will never totally give up debunking Christianity, I'm sure, but for the most part, our efforts belong in other places.
(JH)
Hello Lee'
I agree with most of what you say, however ultimately I don't think it's fair to say I was "robbed" when he chose that lifestyle no matter how confident/charismatic those church people seem. He has the right to denounce Christ but damn, come on, Bruce don't look like he's a 12 year old being forced by his overbearing fundy parents who are draggin his ass off to church.
Alzheimers? That explains alot.
Shalom, feeno
You know guys, I like Bruce, too. Love the man actually, and used to comment on his blog.
But, I have to agree more with Feeno. What is the church for adults, but a voluntary association of people, who for the most part are trying their best to follow Jesus Christ, warts, and all.
There are certainly plenty of problems to address, as there are in any institution made up of fallen, fallible humans...:)
But, let's be honest, how many are being forced to affiliate with any church, let alone be in the ministry for years, and years.
I know in my own denomination, it is not too darn easy to be "priested," in the first place. Candidates study, receive spiritual counsel, and undergo a discernment process that takes years.
We can walk away at any time.
In my humble opinion, it is all too easy to blame others for our lives, including God, or "the church" rather than to take personal responsibility.
I think it infinitely better for people to search their own hearts, and minds, including myself in this, bigtime.
We need to ask ourselves, what drew us toward a spiritually abusive, non life-giving situation to start with.
It's my feeling that many in the church guilt, and work themselves to death, not from a love of God, or deep caring for people, but because they are drawing a sense of identity, shoring up their own self-esteem, through all this. There is a need to be in control.
Jesus is saying on the other hand, to "abide in Him," that His yoke is easy, and His burden light...
Well, I could go on preachin here, also about "the root of bitterness.." Scripture talks about, but realize this is not exactly a Christian blog..
So will leave off for now..
Peace to everyone here.
JOE! You got a haircut! Looks great!
Grace,
there it is!
The old 'BLAMING THE VICTIM' strategy.
That hussy deserves to be raped don't she?
;-)
I think that letter is the same as the one he wrote just before he *started* the blog, a few months ago.
He mentioned some other things there that are at the moment no longer "public," that may be why he's decided to stop now. I hope a similar site can mirror his posts, with his permission.
Can you set up the page so that the music only plays when you tell it to?
Every time I refresh the site, I now have to click to stop it.
ismellarat, I think you can do that for yourself on your end. You could always just turn off your speakers when you visit. I'm just trying it for a few days to see the reaction. We'll see.
"John, it is precisely for this reason (and the futility of arguing with theists) that I have come to dedicate most of my time to movie reviews and other journalistic endeavors that I enjoy. "
I hate to hear these things. I understand, to a small degree, the frustration that you guys must have had to battle. But, you were there for me. Most of my life, I held the epistemological position that when knowledge conflicted with belief, the default position was belief. But there came that day; when the default position switched and instead of defaulting to belief, I chose knowledge. I then found you guys. You helped open my mind to new perspectives. All of you brought something to the table that helped break the yoke of dogma and belief.
I know it is frustrating. I deal with it everyday in bible belt USA. But you do have victories. I'm one.
I'll miss Bruce's posts.
Glad you're still around, John.
You are both more vocal and public than I have the time or courage to be at this point in my life, and for that I'm grateful.
"Sometimes I feel the same way. What the hell am I doing here at this computer when there is a life to be lived?"
I for one am grateful for this website and for the books and articles you take the time to write. I like the fact that you are keeping a dialogue open between believers, atheists and inbetweeners. I hope you keep it up. By the way, I am a songwriter and am working on my magnus opus which will be about J P Holding.
Joe Holman said:
"John, it is precisely for this reason (and the futility of arguing with theists) that I have come to dedicate most of my time to movie reviews and other journalistic endeavors that I enjoy."
You mean you don't enjoy exposing weaknesses in other people's arguments and having a good hearted chuckle at the expense of fundamentalists? Surely that can't be right? And do you tar all theists with the same brush? Doesn't seem fair to me!
Grace said...."But, let's be honest, how many are being forced to affiliate with any church, let alone be in the ministry for years, and years."
Well Grace,im pretty sure Bruce posted a reply on this blog a while back explaining that he was in fact introduced to religion as a young child.At the time he stated this on DC many sad/nasty faithful folks elsewhere were dissing him for supposedly having always been a liar and a fraud according to their faith biased calculations .
Nobody had cared enough to bother to give him the benefit of doubt their mind was already made up.As far as they were concerned indoctrination as a youth wasnt worth taking into any account at all.That a child was introduced to faith by faithful parents and friends who im sure freely showed that benefits and extra kindness etc etc was more forthcoming to those who towed the line,was not good enough reason that a child would not be likely to question and look for the truth.
"But, let's be honest, how many are being forced to affiliate with any church, let alone be in the ministry for years, and years."
What do you consider to be force Grace?....Are young children being dragged off to church meetings amongst those being forced ?,im sure their are plenty who dont really wish to be there to be force fed with threats of hell etc.
"We can walk away at any time."
No please lets be very honest! many children dont get to choose to be indoctrinated or not by faiths, that after indoctrination often also continue to be able to rule by fear.
"In my humble opinion, it is all too easy to blame others for our lives, including God, or "the church" rather than to take personal responsibility."
If i may be totally honest.(Personally) i find it very hard to really see your type thinking here as being so humble.It seems to me you find it to be supposedly too easy to blame faith and belief in Gods etc as you have stated,yet find it quite ok to be harsh on many who maybe are often forced into these beliefs.To me it seems your thinking of faiths and beliefs in Gods etc is far from being humble,it seems its more inline with being very proud.So proud it seems by much you have written here, that you maybe cannot even allow yourself to really even (consider) that faiths and beliefs in gods etc maybe could in fact often be very bad.
"We need to ask ourselves, what drew us toward a spiritually abusive, non life-giving situation to start with."
Well if you really think everyone in this world always has total choice in these matters,i think you need to do a little more research.
I am reading a book now called, "Why we believe what we believe," by Andrew Newburg, MD and Mark Robert Waldmen. It's a very interesting look at the psychological and physiological evolution of beliefs.
it shows how perception and cognition are affected by social consensus. In other words, if you grow up in a world where the social consensus believes that John Frum will return one day. You will most likely grow up with an expectation of John Frums return.
I am reminded that many of the evangelicals such as Pat Robertson and James Dobson, have made similar statement about indoctrinating young people that you would hear from Stalin, Hitler or other totalitarian regimes.
Greetings G, it's been awhile.
I hope Bruce will forgive us for talking about him, but I'm just using him here as a hypothetical situation, because really what we know about someone from the "blog world" is a truly minute aspect of who that person is.
If you are correct and "Bruce" was indoctrinated by his parents and maybe even was scared of fire and brimstone sermons or speeches, then he is in a long damn line. (most people think I'm nuts, then they meet my parents and say to themselves,"Sheez, feeno turned out great.") And if the Church is guilty of this, then he needs to be held to that same standard as the church is. For he himself taught/preached and even raised his children to believe these same things. I'm not taking shots at him because he left the church, I'm saying it's not fair to blame the church.
He choose to be a Christian.
He choose to go to "Bible college.
He choose to pastor several churches, and he choose to raise his family that way.
If we said your correct then didn't Bruce rob his family? Is he guilty? If not, neither is the Church. Like Grace said, and I'll paraphrase "we aint perfect, were just pluggin along trying to do what we feel the Lord wants".
Once again Bruce (if your reading this) I hope your not offended by
our responses. Good luck to you and yours.
Also Gandy nice that our paths have crossed again.
Late, feeno
Gandolf,
Forgive me if my comments have caused you pain. I'm able to see what you're sharing. We can't underestimate the effects of spiritual abuse, and toxic religion in the lives of kids, especially.
But, what is the best road to healing? Maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle of what both of us are trying to share.
Does it ultimately help to see ourselves only as helpless victims, caught up in total negativity, metaphorically shaking our fists in the face of God, and the entire Christian church.
(Thinking of the twelve step program, here.)
I know from my own experience that faith, and a relationship with God can also be very positive, and life-giving.
Gandolf, how to you feel Christian people can be helpful, and supportive for those who have come out of these spiritually abusive, and toxic backgrounds?
I would be interested to hear your thoughts. I'm going away over the holiday weekend, but will check back here when I get home.
Also, agree with Feeno. I don't feel comfortable talking about Bruce, when he is not even here. So, right now I"m speaking in a general way to address this huge concern.
Peace to you, Gandolf, and to everyone here.
Howdy Feeno !
You said "He choose to be a Christian.
He choose to go to "Bible college.
He choose to pastor several churches, and he choose to raise his family that way."
Well i cant say i know the man and his life so very well personally,so its hard to gather the whole picture.
You might know about him and his life etc a whole lot more than i do Feeno?.If you are still standing behind what you have written above and have thought deeply enough about it then maybe you must do.
I too dont feel so comfortable being so public in discussing other peoples lives,so i too hope our friend doesnt mind to much that we do.I wish this man to be happy! and even if i personally have no belief in gods that still doesnt make me somebody who doesnt care about others.
But like i said Feeno here on a blog a while back folks were suggesting maybe Bruce had not really ever been honest and should possibly be considered a type of fraud since he had followed the line of having faith and maybe not really been ever honestly convinced etc.
I then posted explaining that some folks are led along the line of faith believing often a big part due to beliefs of their own families and circle of friends etc.And that these Children some times dont really have a whole lot of choice in matters specially if they wish to be accepted and treated well.
Bruce replied that at least in part of what id said had resounded in some of his own experiences.
Needless to say i certainly wasnt so surprised .....Lets face it Feeno and please lets try to also be a little honest when discussing these matters...If this is infact true about Bruces experience,he can be quite certain that he`s most definitely not very likely to be so alone in this manner.Unless some Christian here wishes to try suggesting its so very unlikely that many children of christians showing potential as believers etc are often likely to find themselves better received by those around them and even at times shown that certain extra little special treats are available.
Feeno you say he choose to be a christian ....i see its always that simple huh ...You honestly reckon ?? ....I personally was born to a certain religious cult.I had to agree to follow...I was a child and kids who dont do the wishes of parents even get a jolly good hiding ....The law allows this.
So i chose to huh Feeno?
"He choose to go to "Bible college.
He choose to pastor"
Well the man followed what agreed the best with those around him ..And he no doubt received thanks and kindness and who knows really what other benefits.
I didnt ....And i also payed the price of losing the love of family and and friends for being to honest of my disbelief.
Should i then also be so keen like so many other so called caring faithful seem to be,in being harsh on Bruce and the road he traveled?
No im inclined to give him a break.And i know its not always just a matter of choice or being honest,even if some faithful folk like to put their head in the sand because it makes them feel good
Hi Grace.
You said ...."Does it ultimately help to see ourselves only as helpless victims, caught up in total negativity, metaphorically shaking our fists in the face of God, and the entire Christian church."
Well please tell me, why am i thought to be angry and shaking my fists at some God if i honestly dont actually believe in one?.
I suggest my anger lies in the superstitions and dishonesty of men who wrote these faith books that are full of deceit are created as a way to bring about control through fear etc!.
See it seems because i dont happen to believe like you do,and the fact that in the past for so many many years religion has been given pride of place through so many having been believers and followers of it.Maybe people like yourself and so many more out there just cant comprehend that disbelievers can be honest and are not in fact angry at any god at all.
No it seems to often because to many christians only allow themselves to think that belief in gods=good,that then disbelief must = bad in which case then those that debate the subject reasons must only ever likely = being angry at some god?.
Do you understand how this christian type thinking might seem a little unjust and even dishonest,and that some people like myself might feel to be misunderstood and even wrongfully judged?.
And for me what makes it even a little more harder to handle is its often done by people who often try telling us that they supposedly have some special personal experience with jesus and god etc that they also try telling us is able to help guide them to be just and caring etc.
"I know from my own experience that faith, and a relationship with God can also be very positive, and life-giving."
I understand what you are saying.I too was once among faith believers and the experience often seemed wonderful to me at that time.It seemed positive and often the group was happy etc.
But many folks often get some of the same feelings from things like yoga.And a group of people in some sports teams for instance can feel happy and euphoria with a sense of much jubilation etc.
Does this mean that we should suggest that Yoga and sports teams etc should be exulted etc and taught as honestly some type of salvation to a afterlife as well?.
Many tribes long ago before faith beliefs arrived on their doorstep used to find something special in their community and family and friends etc.Their experience was that a relationship with their family and tribe was positive and life giving as well.
I suggest sadly i personally believe faith beliefs have even destroyed much of this that we once had, which meant that our past generations were once much more inclined to place much more value on close communities and the respect was then more widespread.
Faith beliefs came along and helped destroy the need of tribe and family,often even going as far as to nastily implore people to choose to separate and treat family and friends etc to such sad tools of destruction as shunning and manipulation etc.
These written faith beliefs of man of old with a wish to control,sure didnt lack in any knowledge of the fact that to rule one must often first find a great way to divide.
So yes im sure to you your belief in faith seems great,but personally i do have to wonder a little if you think its great because its great for you or if you have actually thought about it all in any great depth.
To me it seems you have some how (decided already) that supposedly positive and life giving things etc can only ever likely come through faith beliefs.
There once was a time when i was the same....Being amongst believers i followed like a lamb.What i was told i believed,and if i spoke with others outside they too would wonder at my short sightedness and lack of understanding.
Grace you said ..."Gandolf, how to you feel Christian people can be helpful, and supportive for those who have come out of these spiritually abusive, and toxic backgrounds?"
Well the book you suggest you believe in talks about a need of addressing the root of evils.So i suggest caring christians who wish to pretend they actually care should maybe be looking at the roots because it would simply be the most helpful if these things never happened in the first place.
We can spend all day on forums like this and in the back rooms of churches singling certain people out as not being so christian etc etc.We can all look at jonestown and pick at any personal downfalls they might supposedly personally have etc.
But what does that prove and fix?
When all these beliefs are only able to do what ever they do though many years ago being given special respect and rights to special freedoms of beliefs which in turn allow them all to do almost what ever they please without fear of being held to account.
While you and your christian friends hold onto these same special rights and do nothing about seeing they get changed,tell me Grace do you believe that you and your friends have had a part you have played in what happened to those at jonestown where people sadly died ? ...Or are you one of the many who sit back in their particular wonderful church running down any who happened to use a gate that was left open by all faith believers worldwide?
I suggest that while these old ancient draconian special freedoms of religious beliefs still exist unchallenged,then all faith believer are also actually involved in supplying ways for other faithful folks to do harm.So should also hold some responsibility in all that happens until these things be addressed properly.And just as folk of faith were able to vote for these rights,they are also even today those in enough numbers to be the ones to be able to bring about change.
Of course the thought of the possibility of losing these special rights drives fear into many faithful folk.The thought that they might not be allowed to bully and drive people like sheep into faith belief is scary and to some of them sadly might even seem a little unfair.The fact that if faith beliefs like schools should become accountable and bullying and abuse might become disallowed,worries them that some child might tell things that had happened that might see them residing in some jail.
Ahhhh yes they care ....they really do ..So they try telling us so often..just so long as caring doesnt go to far and do anything to curb their personal hobbies though it seems.
Grace i might sound a little angry please understand its nothing personal!.I have no reason! to dislike you personally as a person i hardly even know you,its your beliefs i dislike.Hope you understand.
Hi, Gandolf,
Sorry it's taken me this long to respond. Things got kinda crazy, and I think I have too many discussion balls in the air on these blogs. :)
Don't worry. I'm not offended at all, and I appreciate your honest sharing. I'm so sorry for you hurtful experiences with your family, especially. I don't think the love of Christ is expressed by being harsh, or throwing anyone away.
Gandolf, I was reared in a Christian tradition that doesn't really have a problem with people expressing honest doubt, and questioning the faith...
Even as a young child, I would question, and challenge my S.S. teachers with various issues, and that was never a problem for them, or my parents.
So, it's hard for me to relate to something like Jonestown. I'm wondering if many of these folks had emotional, and personal problems, difficulty with their own self-esteem, and identity that led to them becoming so decieved, and easily led.
Even the best things in life can become twisted into evil, and misused. No argument there.
But, should we not look past the behavior of flawed humans to find the truth?
Here's a quote from Dr. Francis Collins, that speaks to me, Gandolf..
"Would you condemn an oak tree because its timbers had been used to build battering rams? Would you blame the air for allowing lies to be transmitted through it? Would you judge Mozart's The Magic Flute on the basis of a poorly rehearsed performance by fifth-graders?
If you had never seen a real sunset over the Pacific, would you allow a tourist brochure as a substitute? Would you evaluate the power of romantic love solely in the light of an abusive marriage next door?
No. A real evaluation of the truth of faith depends upon looking at the clean, pure water, not at the rusty containers."
Hi again Grace i do understand how things get kinda crazy sometimes,so no stress.
Glad what i said didnt sound to much like a personal attack,or like i personally hated you.Because putting beliefs aside for a moment to consider personalities showing,i get the feeling id most likely get on with you quite ok.
You said..."So, it's hard for me to relate to something like Jonestown. I'm wondering if many of these folks had emotional, and personal problems, difficulty with their own self-esteem, and identity that led to them becoming so decieved, and easily led."
To be honest i dont know that much about the jonestown folk or how they came to their beliefs,it was just an example.
I dont know if they all chose to join and follow etc,but i do know for sure many folks within religion dont really get much choice in these matters.Quite often people are born into these beliefs,and their is not often that much choice in choosing our parents is there.
You say.."Even the best things in life can become twisted into evil, and misused. No argument there."
Yes i do agree.But still when its based on a book like the bible,cant we expect it would hopefully be a little different?.In life we fumble and learn in a very human way and not pretending to have any higher understanding of matters,problems are maybe not so unexpected.
Is it honest to relate matters associated to so called god inspired teachings,with only the same expectations?.If it is im wondering whats the use in it?,why should it be seen by anybody to really hold anymore hope ?.
You say.."No. A real evaluation of the truth of faith depends upon looking at the clean, pure water, not at the rusty containers."
But i do look around a whole lot and though i see many faithful people like yourself who`s personality etc i like,i still only really see rusty containers.
For instance like ive said they care so much oh yes they say they do,but! as long as caring wont go effecting their own chosen hobby also in any way!.Which means they need to be a little selfish to try to hold on to these laws of religious freedoms.I feel if it wasnt so these people wouldnt want/need special laws of religious freedoms that allowed these things to happen that hurt people even to the point of suicide,surely they would feel quite confident their beliefs could still stand on their own steam without need of special laws to hide behind?.
Why should i be thinking me reading this book is not going to be likely to lead me down the same track at some stage?.Should i think maybe im smarter? or some specialist guru that wont be led up the garden path like so many others have been?
Is it so very wrong to look at the bible and see what it for what it looks like a very confusing jumble written by superstitious people of old,and then understand maybe why so many folks have ended up with madness all around them?.Because it seems all very fine to tell me how lucky you were with faith,but should that make me feel any better?....Is this like a game of Russian roulette and i just happen to be one of the unlucky ones who need to just harden up a bit and just handle the jandle?
Hey anyway putting my dislikes aside,still hope you have a great week end Grace.
Bruce was horrible. He was abusive and unforgiving. He moderated all his posts so there was no contradiction to his cancerous views. I am glad his sight is dead.
Adam, Bruce was not abusive and unforgiving. He just didn't particularly want fervent Christians on his blog trying to re-convert him or acting as an apologist for the religion he left.
He was firm, but NEVER abusive. A christian called Grace perservered for months to try to get Bruce to see the light, but in the end he firmly, but politely, had to suggest that she no longer post there.
And there were some christians (were you one?) who were so obnoxious that had to ban them from the site (not "sight", as you spell it).
Finally, it is evangelical christianity that is "cancerous", not Bruce's little, non-threatening site!
Gandolf,
I don't know your background. But, for me, the Christian faith is not about simply following a book.
It's about God's love as shown in Christ. I think if we follow Jesus, loving God with our whole heart, and our neighbors as ourselves, we can't easily go wrong.
I think you obviously have a questioning, and inquiring mind. Gandolf, you don't strike me as someone who would simplistically follow a harmful cult.
God will be faithful to help you sort all this out, Gandolf. Nothing can seperate us from His love.
Blessings to you.
Does anyone know how to contact Bruce?
Yes, Bruce can be contacted, Andrew. But would it be a good idea for me to tell you where? I'm guessing he may have found he has a serious health problem, and you're not always the nicest person around, you know. :)
???
Oh, sorry, you're a different Andrew! You may have some problems around here, because of one or two others who use the same name.
I'll try to contact you through your profile.
...and it looks as if I can't. Can you add a contact link?
You seem to have much in common with him. Maybe you can at least get him to put back up what he wrote for others to mirror, even if he will no longer contribute. It was almost my favorite site for a while. So much got lost. :(
Heyyyy, he's back!!
With a must-read on "Masturbation and The Second Coming," no less!
http://brucedroppings.com/
He's gone again.
http://restlesswanderings.com/
If anyone knows him, can you persuade him to at least make available his older posts for possible inclusion in someone else's blog?
I of course understand he's battling MS and has limited energy for maintaining the blog, but it's really a shame to see a couple of thousand or so articles, along with a few thousand comments, disappear like that.
I really hope he turns up again. He is a good man with lots to share, but I support him in whatever path he takes.
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