A Q &A I Had on Facebook With A Friend From Ministry Days
Why not share my little tidbits with everyone and not have to write stuff twice, right?
This person asked me:
I don't know how the universe began and neither do you. Have you really taken seriously the faith statement that a Trinitarian God just happened to be in existence forever...always. How is that any better option?
First I became a liberal, then an agnostic, then an atheist, so it happened over the course of about ten years. it didn't happen overnight.
I care about people because I care about them and myself. That's who I am. It a makes me happy, which is it own justification, holistic happiness. Just ask yourself if you would stop caring once you came to think God doesn't exist and you'll see what I mean. Would you stop caring for your friends and family? No. We're all human beings and we need each other.
Much of the Bible is made from the superstitious myths of an ancient world. The creation accounts in Genesis 1-2 were borrowed from Mesopotamian myths. We know this. That's right. We know this. There can be no doubt about it and evangelicals like John Walton, Peter Enns, and Kenton Sparks in their recent books admit it. And Yahweh had a wife whose name was Ashterah. Check out archeologist and former Christian turned agnostic William Dever's book, Did God Have a Wife? The nativity stories in Matthew and Luke are myths plain and simple. They are inconsistent with each other, not corroborated in earlier traditions found in Mark's gospel and Q, and do not correspond to anything we know about Herod's death or any known census at the time. Census takers always come to the place where people live, otherwise the whole known world would be uprooted. And that star? It moved over Bethlehem, right? That's what it says. It moved. Such heavenly movement was perfectly understandable given that ancients thought the stars were hung in the dome in the sky, and like the Flood which was unleashed from that same dome the stars could move across it.
I believe there was a historical person who started the Jesus cult, yes. At best he was nothing more or less than a failed apocalyptic doomsday prophet who predicted the end of the world and the coming of Daniel's "Son of man" in his day and age.
This person asked me:
I have questions merely out of curiosity. If you don't have time to respond I understand as they are just curiosities. As an atheist, where are you with the beginning of the universe? What triggered a sell out to God for a sell out to no God? You said something to the effect that you still care about people first and foremost. Where does that come from if not from God? Is the Bible historical to you or just made up? Did Jesus really live on Earth? Those are just a few I am curious about your stance on.Hey, thanks for your questions. I wrote a book about it which is getting some great reviews.
I don't know how the universe began and neither do you. Have you really taken seriously the faith statement that a Trinitarian God just happened to be in existence forever...always. How is that any better option?
First I became a liberal, then an agnostic, then an atheist, so it happened over the course of about ten years. it didn't happen overnight.
I care about people because I care about them and myself. That's who I am. It a makes me happy, which is it own justification, holistic happiness. Just ask yourself if you would stop caring once you came to think God doesn't exist and you'll see what I mean. Would you stop caring for your friends and family? No. We're all human beings and we need each other.
Much of the Bible is made from the superstitious myths of an ancient world. The creation accounts in Genesis 1-2 were borrowed from Mesopotamian myths. We know this. That's right. We know this. There can be no doubt about it and evangelicals like John Walton, Peter Enns, and Kenton Sparks in their recent books admit it. And Yahweh had a wife whose name was Ashterah. Check out archeologist and former Christian turned agnostic William Dever's book, Did God Have a Wife? The nativity stories in Matthew and Luke are myths plain and simple. They are inconsistent with each other, not corroborated in earlier traditions found in Mark's gospel and Q, and do not correspond to anything we know about Herod's death or any known census at the time. Census takers always come to the place where people live, otherwise the whole known world would be uprooted. And that star? It moved over Bethlehem, right? That's what it says. It moved. Such heavenly movement was perfectly understandable given that ancients thought the stars were hung in the dome in the sky, and like the Flood which was unleashed from that same dome the stars could move across it.
I believe there was a historical person who started the Jesus cult, yes. At best he was nothing more or less than a failed apocalyptic doomsday prophet who predicted the end of the world and the coming of Daniel's "Son of man" in his day and age.
11 comments:
John, I agree that you just can't all of a sudden stop caring about people.
I'd like to take you up on the Genesis creation accounts. What ancient myth could Genesis 1 possibly have plagiarized? There are some form similarities, but beyond that there is only the Hebrew "tehom" that sounds like Tiamat from the Enuma Elish. But those are wildly different stories. There is no theomachy (god war), and humans are the head of creation, not the products of Tiamat's carcass. And where from the biblical record do we hear anything of a wife for Yahweh? I'd venture to say that Dever has little company in that theory (though the Hebrew popular religious culture was synchretistic, like everyone around them, which makes the biblical polemics against idolatry even more striking).
Gotta go for now. I have scheduled posts coming throughout the day so don't think I'm online when they appear. I'll get back to you later unless someone else wants to chime in. Perhaps you should just read the books mentioned. I have a few of them linked at the bottom in the sidebar.
Cheers.
John, no rush. But I do want to hear what you have to say, as I'm already familiar with the works you mentioned. Enns in particular is an important work and aided me in reforming a bad inerrancy doctrine I held.
Brad Haggard
Except for those who believe the Bible is inerrant and not a document that has undergone much editing, why should Biblical record be the only source for whether or not Yahweh had a wife?
Couldn't the existence of archeological artefacts such as the potsherd from Samaria depicting Yahweh and his Asherah be considered evidence?
The book that John references in the opening post that mentions YHWH's wife Asherah is here:
Did God Have a Wife?: Archaeology and Folk Religion in Ancient Israel. Apparently YHWH henotheism was popular among the Jerusalem elite, but YHWH having a consort was popular among the common people.
If I'm not mistaken, there might be some references to YHWH's wife in another book The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts.
Maybe these books should be added to the sidebar?
Apashiol,
I'm not sure which potsherd you are referring, but it most certainly would be evidence. According to Dever, there are a number of inscriptions and representations of Asherah. That all counts as evidence, but it doesn't show that the Bible is poly-theistic. That argument just can't stand, as much of the Bible is a directed polemic against polytheism. Dever puts these two sides together by attributing the OT polemics to an "elitist" Jerusalem priesthood as opposed to the "folk" Israelite polytheism. This is partly true, but I don't think it is as cut and dry as Dever suggests (he relies heavily in his theories on sharp social distinctions). It strikes me much like popular Virgen Mary reverence in Latin America. It is not evidence for polytheism, but rather popular synchretism, which isn't even in dispute.
At any rate, evryone recognizes that the OT is sophisticated and not any sort of crass polytheism such as in the neighboring Ugaritic texts. That is where I think Loftus misses the mark.
Brad,
I don't know about anyone claiming the Bible is polytheistic.
It always struck me as a good example of the aphorism about history being written by the victors, though in this case it's more origin myth than history, and it's the priests of Yahweh who get to create the Jewish identity.
This link talks of pottery bearing an inscription referring to Yahweh and his Asherah.
There is a similar late-monarchic one from the Shephelah of Judah.
for info on comparrision between creation accounts can i recomend Bible Myths And Their Parallels In Other Religions by thomas doane.
On God having a wife or consort yes some people set up asherah poles next to alters. this practice was forbidden but shown by archelogical evidence to have continued in many plaes. see deut 16.21 for prohibition.
Brad, can we get some basic info for reference? Are you a strict fundamentalist? Young earth creationist? Do you believe in a literal or spiritual resurrection? Preterist or futurist?
I have a few questions for you Mr. Loftus
How would you in short explain the empty tomb
the discovery of it by women
and the disciples belief in the resurrection
I know you would have touched on it in your book, but unfortunately I still live in a Christian household so I have to be a bit discrete on the books I bring into the house
Apashiol,
Thanks for the link. That is a great example of Dever's characterization. Just note that it is in Samaria (read: northern Israel) during about the time of the national split. It fits pretty nicely with the biblical data.
As for the priests co-opting the religion, I'm not quite sure what motive you assign to them. In this case, according to the majority of redaction criticism, the history was chronicled by the losers in the exile. And there are strong social concerns among all of the prophets right alongside Yahweh exclusive worship. If anything, the record is anti-elitist. The prophets we now have were opponents of the political establishment for the most part.
But don't run cover for John, because one of his main contentions is that the OT reflects a superstitious and polytheistic culture, and I want to hear his answer.
Brian,
This is the third time in the last month I've been asked that. Why the big deal over background? It strikes me as fundamentalism in reverse. If it helps, I identify myself along Plantinga's "mere Christianity", an intersection of the ancient creeds.
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