ExChristian Former Pastor on the Fate of American Christianity

American Christianity is under assault from every side. Science, archeology, and history constantly push at the claims of the Bible. (and let me make one point very clear. A Christianity without the Bible is no Christianity at all) Seismic shifts in social and cultural norms continue to raise numerous questions about the value of the Bible and its teachings. Very often the modern world is a paper shredder and the Bible is the scrap paper. American Christians respond to this assault in one of two ways. They either entrench or retrench.
What Bruce Gerencser says is a very worthy read. Check it out.

25 comments:

Rhacodactylus said...

If only we were so decisively attacking Christianity . . .

Saint Brian the Godless said...

The end of christianity couldn't come fast enough for me. Good riddance. I hope it happens in my lifetime.

With these tea party candidates getting in, perhaps after a couple of years witnessing their stumblebum philosophy of idiocy the country will come to its senses.

Yeah. What am I thinking? It'll take a millennia to get all the poison out of our world.

Brad Haggard said...

Saint Brian,

Do you think that Christianity and the Tea Party are the same thing?

Chuck said...

Brad,

It seems disingenous of you to question the relationship between the rise of the Religious Right via Evangelical Christianity and the current Tea Party.

I am with Brian. "True believers" in this country are a threat to progress and human rights.

I enjoy the company of many Christians on an interpersonal level but would hate to have to live underneath their concept of right and wrong.

Beautiful Feet said...

ExChristian wrote, "and let me make one point very clear. A Christianity without the Bible is no Christianity at all)"

Now that's an interesting comment, given the early believers had no NT at all and the Torah (according to what I've been told by a person who follows Judaism) was not handed out to lay people but kept secure in the temple.

To depend solely on scripture as a source of faith is, well, not scriptural! :-) To depend solely on scripture and the bible would be to make it a false idol. It is intended as a source of inspiration, not God Himself.

GearHedEd said...

Tell that to the folks who worship the KJV, BF...

Anonymous said...

Beautiful Feet,

Early Christians certainly did not have leather bound King James Bibles. :)

It can be easily argued that Christianity remained a subset of Judaism for many years. They heard the Torah read. According to the NT it spoke to them of Christ.

After the death of Jesus letters began to circulate passed from Church to Church. These letters eventually became the canon of Scripture.

While there was a short period where one could argue that the Christians had no NT text they have always had a some kind of text.

Anyway, my point was more directed at the constant stream of Christians I get these days on my blog that suggest that you can be a Christian and you can know Jesus apart from the Bible.

No you can't. Without the Bible all the world has that tells them that Jesus ever existed are a few historical records. Certainly not enough to validate what is commonly called Christianity. (the faith once delivered to the saints)

Faith must ultimately rest in the Bible.......what does Christianity have without it? A certain amount of faith, trust, authority, whatever word you want to use must be exercised for a person to believe.

After all, faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

Thanks.

Bruce

LadyAtheist said...

...and Wahabist muslims react to modernity by blowing up skyscrapers and living in caves.

Beautiful Feet said...

Hi Bruce, you said, "After all, faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God."

"And the word became flesh" the word is Christ, not scripture and it comes through a spirit. Prior to any written letters or documents, there were spiritual relationships and oral tradition. I believe there is a scripture somewhere that says that it is our thirst for righteousness that makes us a candidate for faith. The thief on the cross next door to Jesus who was able to recognize Him as royalty certainly had no scriptural or doctrinal training - only a heartfelt hunger and ability to recognize something different than the darkness he had experienced his entire life.



Thx!

Beautiful Feet said...

Postscript to Bruce, just scripturally speaking, I don't know if you noticed this or not, but Jesus really didn't quote the Torah too often, but only to those whom it was relevant and meaningful. Anyway, thx again!

Anonymous said...

Beautiful Feet,

Let the dueling interpretations begin, yes? :)

That said, the word of God is probably best understood as the word of Christ.(as other manuscripts have thus meaning what Jesus spoke) Certainly early Christians first verbally passed it on (cue Evangelical song Pass it On) until what Jesus said (and did) was written down.

The Greek word for word in John 1 is not the same as the word used in Rom 10:17. Perhaps they mean the same thing (they can) perhaps they don't. Once again, let the dueling Greek interpretations begin.

It is likely when the early Christians gathered at the temple they heard the Torah read. (if there were, as I claim, a subset of Judaism) Since you admit Jesus quoted from it I assume his followers heard him do so.

Anyway, no desire to get into a Bible debate. Everyone can bring their own interpretation, their own proofs, their own authorities. That's what makes the Bible so great.....it can be anything you want it to be.

Thanks.

Bruce

Anonymous said...

I don't think Beautiful Feet is a fundamentalist. She is probably a Rick Warren stripe.

Beautiful Feet said...

Ex said, "She is probably a Rick Warren stripe."

Nope - not a Rick Warren stripe or even polka dot for that matter.

It's okay - I know it's a common practice to assign identities and characterizations to ppl based on group affiliations, but honestly, there are those amongst the faithful that have actually accepted God's invitation to connect with His free spirit and are self (or God) actualized (or in the process of being delivered into freedom).

Beautiful Feet said...

NW Ohio Skeptic said, "Let the dueling interpretations begin, yes? :) "

Diverse perceptions were not corrected or debated by Jesus when He asked a crowd of ppl who they thought He was - However, He did chose one who had insight into His identity to become foundational in forming His church.

At any rate, I believe the word has become flesh in the life of Christ (which includes both His words and deeds) and those who share in it, but you are entitled to embrace whatever you prefer. God's grace gives us the liberty to hold to a heartfelt preference.

Papalinton said...

Hi Beautiful Feet
You say, ... "... but honestly, there are those amongst the faithful that have actually accepted God's invitation to connect with His free spirit and are self (or God) actualized (or in the process of being delivered into freedom)."

Papalinton
This is meaningless babble, verbosity extraordinaire, a 'stream of consciousness straight from the top of your head, including the dandruff.' Can you actually hold a straight face as your write or repeat this [for want of a better descriptor] psycho-babble?

You also say, ... ".. I believe the word has become flesh in the life of Christ (which includes both His words and deeds) and those who share in it, ..."

Papalinton
Beautiful Feet, the phrase 'word has become flesh' has always intrigued me how christians are so mindlessly unaware of the cannibalism that forms the foundation of the eucharist; where people of the 21stC are invited to partake in a cannibalistic ceremony to eat the flesh and drink the blood of a dead person. There is something astonishingly bizarre and perverse in this barbaric necrophilic ritual.

Don't your think the time is appropriate for the mythology and legends of bronze-age goat herds and their god's demand for abominable blood sacrifices be put behind us in a modern society? Don't you think these neanderthalic practices should be left behind with the neanderthals and their contemporaries? Do christians really need to show their knuckles are still dragging on the ground with these silly persistent and ridiculous beliefs hanging as an albatross around their necks?

Enough already!

Sheesh

Beautiful Feet said...

Papalinton said this, "Beautiful Feet, the phrase 'word has become flesh' has always intrigued me how christians are so mindlessly unaware of the cannibalism that forms the foundation of the eucharist; where people of the 21stC are invited to partake in a cannibalistic ceremony to eat the flesh and drink the blood of a dead person."

One of my favorite verses is when Jesus invites a crowd of ppl to eat His flesh and drink His blood who, like you, became offended. (BTW, Jesus did offend ppl's egos to try and set them free from being egotistical) Just think if more ppl took their hostility out with God rather than one another??? But instead, some religious take their hostility out on ppl and then "dress up" for God -- what kind of God is intimidated by any of mankinds' sins?? An idol! Jesus isn't intimidated by anything ppl do.

Jesus's invitation to us is to bring our hostile feelings to Him - the truth will set ppl free - eventually we mature in faith to love even those who mistreat us, our enemies, but we acknowledge and confess our starting point of contempt for one another with God. I know many who take offense at some of Jesus's words without examining their own lives and attitudes -- we develope dysfunctional coping mechanisms to deal with cruelty and accept many ways that are unnecessary for living.

At any rate Papalinton, I'm going to keep my freedom-you are more than welcome to stay right where you are.

Chuck said...

Beautiful Feet (Manifesting Mini Me?),

You've supported your entire argument for Jesus' reality by quoting the bible thus making Bruce's point.

Without the Bible you wouldn't even know who this Jesus character is and your constant reference to it is evidence of that.

All of your other comments are just further evidence of this brute fact.

Beautiful Feet said...

Hi Chuck - yes, aka 3M (as I pointed out in a past comment on another thread).

Scripture confirms what I have experienced through the spiritual -- I didn't/don't have that much of a relationship with theology or religious doctrine but scripture confirms that there is a spirit that testifies to the truth. I refer to scripture because that is how you define the notion of 'god'.I find it to be a source of inspiration and confirmation. And, BTW, God still can speak without referring to scripture.

It is possible to use scripture without a dogmatic approach and it becoming an idol. I think for many religious ppl, the bible has become 'god' because it is more convenient to rely on established doctrine than allowing the spirit to reveal and heal the subliminal within one's own life. It takes courage to confront hard truths within and all the coping mechanisms we develop as a result.

At any rate, take care, Chuck. Hope you're enjoying your new family member

Anonymous said...

Papalinton
Thank you very much for expressing in writing what I feel inside about beautiful feet. I wish I had that gift.

Of course when you refer to cannibalism she just defects to some other weird spiritual interpretation of the scripture that is entirely her own imagination, yet in her mind it is the Spirit that reveals this to her.

Beautiful feet
You are considered to be a liberal Christian to fundamentalists.

Please tell us how God speaks apart from his word?

Chuck said...

BF,

You said, "It is possible to use scripture without a dogmatic approach and it becoming an idol." Yet you insist we must agree with you on this because (wait for it) scripture says so!!!!

Total incoherence.

Beautiful Feet said...

Chuck, you said, "Yet you insist we must agree with you on this because (wait for it) scripture says so!!!!"

Please show me where I do that - I think you may be implying something here. Especially when I wrote this, "God's grace gives us the liberty to hold to a heartfelt preference." and this,
"you are more than welcome to stay right where you are."

Hi ex-reformer, you wrote, "Beautiful feet
You are considered to be a liberal Christian to fundamentalists."

If you need to apply a particular label to me that is meaningful to you, okay.

You asked, "Please tell us how God speaks apart from his word?"

From my own experience, I think ppl have a habit of sensationalizing the supernatural, either elevating it to an elitist experience or demoting it to the realm of mental health disorder. But I don't view it that way -- yes, God speaks in words, but also spiritual enlightenment and inspiration. BTW, I thought you were a believer once - why are you asking me this?? You have probably had more experience with God than I.

Papalinton said...

Hi Beautiful Feet
You say, .... "yes, God speaks in words. .."

Papalinton
So you can hear his words? I guess he speaks English. I guess that means English must be his 'mother tongue'. Oh, I nearly forgot, G W Bush did say, "If English is good enough for god, then it's good enough for me".

Enough already, already.

Sheesh

Beautiful Feet said...

Papalinton, as I've said before, you don't have to agree with me.

And then you said, "I guess he speaks English. I guess that means English must be his 'mother tongue'."

I think there are a few steps missing in your line of logic in drawing your conclusion.....

Anonymous said...

B.F.

Yes I used to be a believer, and a very strict fundamentalist. I am not the one labeling you. You label yourself by what you write. In my experience people who say they have no labels are the ones who usually have the most.

Ware do you go to Church?

All of this "The Bible only confirms what the spirit has already shown you is NOT provable in any way. Just like Bruce said "Let the dueling interpretations begin, yes? :)"

Why did Bruce say this twice, because he studied and taught the Bible for twenty-five years. And he knows as well as anyone you can make the Bible say whatever you want.

So what if I come along and tell you the spirit of God inside me told me you are wrong about (insert any bible verse you like here)How would anyone ever be able to say I was wrong? People used to Kill each other over this kind of thing. It just does not make any rational sense to me whatsoever.

Beautiful Feet said...

Hi Ex,

You said, "I am not the one labeling you. You label yourself by what you write. In my experience people who say they have no labels are the ones who usually have the most."

What happens if people misinterpret what one says/writes and rather than seek to understand, presume a wrong characterization upon another? I do have an identity or label if you will-- I referred to being a freed spirit. You have asked where I go to church -I will say that I am not affiliated with an institutionalized religious organization. I have friends with whom I meet with on a regular basis and share faith with. None of us attend "church", at least by your standards.

And then you said, "And he knows as well as anyone you can make the Bible say whatever you want."

I happen to agree with that and I think it is evident from the variety of interpretations of scripture and doctrines that arise from theology, that that is the case. Ppl project onto the divine their own nature and human experience.

And then you said this, "People used to Kill each other over this kind of thing. " I know. Hardly "loving the enemy". Jesus told the truth about the danger of religious abuses -- I believe Him.

anyway, ttyl