Christians, Where Are the Real Answers to Real Questions?
Having heard it all--quite literally--Christians have no answers to the questions that need to be answered. When someone wants to know some real answers to real questions of theirs, all they get is circular logic, Socratic definitions pursued down the rabbit hole, splitting hairs, logical gerrymandering, re-framing the questions differently to suit one's faith, The Omniscience Escape Clause, The Faith Trump Card, and so many logical fallacies it can make one nauseous. The interesting thing about this is that only when someone decides they want real answers to real questions do they see this for what it is. And at that point it's easy to see through the platitudes and non-answers offered by Christians in response. Here's another example of someone looking for real answers to real questions, and you can see the end result.
47 comments:
Christians, Where Are the Real Answers to Real Questions?
In the real Christian life: there's where the real answers to the real questions are (including the purpose and meaning of the human person).
John,
I can't really answer her question because I didn't find a specific one to answer. I don't know what she went through, so I don't think I can offer any comment.
Buy maybe that's just because I'm a deluded idiot.
Keep fighting the good fight!
I for one feel extremely fortunate that I was never duped into religion.
The world does not operate on magical principles NOW, and there's no evidence that it ever did, outside of anonymous claims in the Bible. I recognized this even as a child.
Now, when I read stuff like what the Christian post-ers here say, it always boils down to an appeal to mystery, or personal relationships (with a guy who died 2000 years ago!)
Get a clue: relationships require two living beings that can RESPOND TO each other.
Y'all only think Jesus talks to you, and you ought to be getting those voices in your head checked out.
I'm trying to develop a list of questions for Christians, since they always seem to have questions for me. The next time someone asks where I'll go when I die, I'll ask them why the Gospels trace Jesus' lineage through Joseph if he was the spawn of God?
If Lot was the model of morality in the Sodom & Gomorrah story, then why did he offer his daughters to be raped and then after escaping the city have children by them?
If Lot was the model of morality in the Sodom & Gomorrah story, then why did he offer his daughters to be raped
If the ship's captain is the model of morality, why does he sentence the men to death in case the ship sinks?
Both Lot and the captain had to choose between two evils: the former between two forms of rape (homosexual and heterosexual); the latter, between letting the women and children die, or letting the men die. Both chose the lesser evil ('less' does NOT mean small, it means smallER).
and then after escaping the city have children by them?
It was a sin in which he didn't participate. (His daighters got him drunk and slept with him).
Now I have a question for you: why do you ask dishonest questions?
Lady; I think the most effective question is to ask why the earliest version of the earliest gospel, Mark, don't include the verses containing the risen Jesus (16:9-20). Many Christians won't know what you are talking about, but it's still a good question.
Luka; your comments have just transcended from annoying snipes to the utterly disgusting.
Are you honestly saying that it's better to let your daughters get raped by men so as to prevent a homosexual rape from occuring?
You don't have children, do you?
@Lvka:
>In the real Christian life: there's where the real answers to the real questions are (including the purpose and meaning of the human person).
Billions of human lives keep coming and going in ignorance of Christianity. No doubt billions more will come and go in the eventual "Jesus who?" era. People seem to do just fine without your religion.
@GearHedEd:
>Now, when I read stuff like what the Christian post-ers here say, it always boils down to an appeal to mystery, or personal relationships (with a guy who died 2000 years ago!)
Not to mention a 2,000 year old male virgin. The Mormons, interestingly, must have found that embarrassing when they decided to rebrand Jesus for the 19th Century. So they decided to raise Jesus' status in the male hierarchy by teaching that he had several wives, and presumably also conjugal sexual relations with them, during his earthly existence.
Lvka, it is painfully obvious that no one here has the slightest interest in anything you have to say, on any subject. You obviously have a desperate need for attention.
One has to wonder why you don't simply hang out on Orthodox Christian sites. My guess would be that they can't stand you either.
I'll say it again - get a job, get out of the house, get a life.
I feel for this person --- "It feels even better to breathe without risking offending some all powerful being."
I suffered from this vision of God as well -- one of the original sins is how we mischaracterize/view God as one who makes demands and ultimatums without any foundation of love for us. It is idolotry to view God as one who must be appeased out of fear of condemnation. Jesus came to set us free from that image --- in fact, when one actually believes what Jesus said, that He did not come to condemn, then the problem of condemnation becomes one of a corrupt human heart.
Lyka, you don't seem to know a great deal about your beliefs; for sure, you don't know a great deal about nautical matters.
When a passenger vessel sinks, the lives of women and children ALWAYS get priority. Also, whomever may have actually been responsible for the loss of the vessel, the captain (since he's the ultimate authority onboard) is ultimately responsible for it. In the old days, a ship's captain who lost his vessel through negligence usually lost his job; even if he remained employed, good sailors would not sign on with him. This is why captains usually went down with their ships. A captain sentences men to death only in cases of mutiny...and even then, only if that mutiny results in the death of any of the crew. Naval captains don't even have that privilege.
Since God serves as the captain in this case, why did he not accept responsibility for his failure and die along with Sodom? He knew the place had become so wicked that he'd have no choice but to destroy it...so the deal he made with Lot was a sucker's bet. He knew Lot would lose!
To know why God would allow something to happen would require that I get inside the mind of God. I'm content with knowing that there is a morally sufficient reason even if I don't know at the time what it is. God will reveal it in His time. I just trust in God's infinite wisdom. I don't have all the answers today. I use to think I did but I'm alot happier and humble just trusting God and not trying to figure Him out.
@ Cole,
You just made my point on faith again. You believe that God has a morally sufficient reason for both directly causing and allowing all kinds of wretched, horrible, manifestly evil things to happen without any evidence that this is so. What evidence do you have that such things are working for good? What evidence do you have that God has a morally sufficient reason for causing calamity, for allowing calamity?
You have a book of questionable authenticity, of dubious historicity, filled with myriad logical inconsistencies and internal contradictions. One of HUNDREDS of other books that all make the same claim and which all, suspiciously, claim that it is this evidenceless Faith that is necessary to really understand.
Ludicrous.
Jeffrey,
My evidence comes from the Bible. This is one of the ways God works. Take for example the cross. This was the most horrific and evil act ever done by man. Yet God used it for good - to atone for the sin of sinners. What Satan meant for evil God meant it for good. Of course we could debate wether or not the Bible is God's word but this would require a book.
"If God is a loving God, why did he allow me to go through what I went through?"
Because, that's why. Read the book of Job and you have your answer. I don't see that god in the book of Job is any different than a Nietzschean superman. Nietzsche, having killed god promptly turns around and re-creates him.
Ironic.
@Cole, I don't think crucifixion is the worst way to die. Upon request, I can be troubled to list many many ways to die that have historical basis and are on par with a quality crucifixion.
Not to suggest all people have done horrible things, but a quick scan of history and the news suggests that people have done many horrible things to each other of which crucifixion is just one and arguably sanitized when compared to anything the Japanese army did at Nanking.
I feel for anyone who had to experience such a harsh death. But don't expect me to rank it as the worst.
Seth,
Murdering the Son of God is the worst act a person can do in my book.
Cole, but wasn't the murder planned from the very foundations of the world, no?
In which case, god would find the murder of his son necessary.
Now, it could still be seen by him as necessary and "the worst act" possible.
But then that would call into question your gods omnipotence.
Cole,
"Murdering the Son of God is the worst act a person can do in my book."
If God is the father and the son, then he murdered himself.
Also, if you cannot understand the mind of God, why not? Why doesn't he explain himself a bit better if he wants people to believe in him. Why has he allegedly not communicated with humans for 2010 years?
Sorry my math is off! I should have said 1980 years or so. Assuming Jesus lived to about thirty.
including the purpose and meaning of the human person
How can a person have a meaning? What does that even mean? lol
I have a question that is slightly off-topic: Could someone tell me where I might find a detailed and ideally complete list of all the new testament contradictions - that is, the details in the gospels that conflict with details in the other gospels?
I've been looking for some time online and keep coming up with partial lists as "here are some blatant examples", but I'm wondering if there's a site that has compiled the bulk of them?
Thanks in advance!
Kristine
Camus Dude said...
"How can a person have a meaning? What does that even mean? lol"
In Christianity the individual has ultimate value. This was radical and revolutionary for it's time. Even today there are many religions that place little or no value on the individual.
If you value your own unique individuality then you are operating within the Christian horizon.
Kristine check out the skeptics annotated Bible
In Christianity the individual has ultimate value. This was radical and revolutionary for it's time.
No, it wasn't! Pharisaic/Rabbinic Judaism had already been saying it for the better part of two centuries. We also find its underpinnings in the Israelite religion of the Old Testament - not to mention certain of the Greek philosophers and the Asian religions.
Christians have no answers to the questions that need to be answered.
hollow coming from someone who doesn't acknowledge a substantial effort to address the so called "debunking christianity challenge". your statement will have some credence when you actually put out some effort to make an intellectual defense of your book. it's one thing to throw statements around. it's another to be able to defend your beliefs.
all they get is circular logic
ALL logic is ultimately circular. but don't dare tell your constituents that.
The Omniscience Escape Clause
as if the nontheist alternative is any better.
GearHedEd said...
Get a clue: relationships require two living beings that can RESPOND TO each other.
Y'all only think Jesus talks to you, and you ought to be getting those voices in your head checked out.
@GearHedEd
Ohh, what utter nonsense, don’t you know that they do not here a voice in there head(depending on which fundy you talk to) It is a still small voice inside the soul. It is the word’s of holy scripture that they here.
It is knowing that you know that you know, but surly not a audible voice.
What ever mumbo jumbo they tell you it is, I.M.H.O it is B.S.
LadyAtheist said...
I'm trying to develop a list of questions for Christians, since they always seem to have questions for me. The next time someone asks where I'll go when I die, I'll ask them why the Gospels trace Jesus' lineage through Joseph if he was the spawn of God?
@LadyAtheist
If you are seriously putting together a list, I would be very determined to read it. If you don’t want to post it, send me an email: excalvinist@gmial.com
Thank You
Cole said...
To know why God would allow something to happen would require that I get inside the mind of God. I'm content with knowing that there is a morally sufficient reason even if I don't know at the time what it is. God will reveal it in His time. I just trust in God's infinite wisdom. I don't have all the answers today. I use to think I did but I'm alot happier and humble just trusting God and not trying to figure Him out.
@Cole
Are you a Pastor?, come on?
I will say though Brother Cole, you do a great job of trying not to offend an atheist, or anyone for that mater.
Tell me Brother Cole, do you believe in eternal conscience torment, everlasting burning in flames, you know, HELL!
Jeffrey A. Myers said.
@ Cole,
You just made my point on faith again. You believe that God has a morally sufficient reason for both directly causing and allowing all kinds of wretched, horrible, manifestly evil things to happen without any evidence that this is so. What evidence do you have that such things are working for good? What evidence do you have that God has a morally sufficient reason for causing calamity, for allowing calamity?
@ Jeffrey A. Myers
Why do you waste your time asking for evidence? Unless you are merely doing research. You know Cole’s answer will just be some pie in the sky Bible Verse.
Cole said...
Jeffrey,
My evidence comes from the Bible. This is one of the ways God works. Take for example the cross. This was the most horrific and evil act ever done by man. Yet God used it for good - to atone for the sin of sinners. What Satan meant for evil God meant it for good. Of course we could debate wether or not the Bible is God's word but this would require a book.
@Cole
And now, LADYS AND GENTELMAN AROUND THE WORLD! DRUM ROLE PLEASE.
Did I not predict to Jeffery that Coles answer would be citing a wonderful Bible verse?
Also Cole, I used to believe your answer quite faithfully, until I read about something that Nero did.
trae norsworthy said...
Christians have no answers to the questions that need to be answered.
hollow coming from someone who doesn't acknowledge a substantial effort to address the so called "debunking christianity challenge". your statement will have some credence when you actually put out some effort to make an intellectual defense of your book. it's one thing to throw statements around. it's another to be able to defend your beliefs.
all they get is circular logic
ALL logic is ultimately circular. but don't dare tell your constituents that.
The Omniscience Escape Clause
as if the nontheist alternative is any better.
October 25, 2010 10:21 PM
@trae norsworthy
Hello my friend Trae, it’s nice to read a comment from one of about three people in the whole world that actually comment on my blog, how are you dong?
Your position does not deserve one bit of effort and intellectual defense from anyone That is why I attack it the way I do. I read John because he went through some of the same things I went through, and he rose out of that poison.
I can't get the link to work...
From what I've seen here I would answer the questions (whatever they were) a little differently.
But I find it ironic how Lvka and Cole become the object of conversation rather that the questions and answers themselves which are independent of these two individuals.
Lot's choice to surrender his daughters is NOT necessarily the wisest thing to do (however desperate he may have felt his situation was). No where does scripture condon his offering of his virgin daughters. It just shows his state of mind regarding the holy things of God (in this case angels).
I'm sure that these angels could have defended themselves... perhaps Lot was actually trying to save the compulsive crowd? The text doesn't say - but he does call them brethern (endearing).
If he's protecting them and he feels he is in a no win situation and makes a drastic decision...this doesn't mean that the scripture agrees that he made the best choice. Question everything.
besides, the question was a pseudo question because it assumed Lot was somehow a model for morality. Lot was selfish to some degree (look at the story of splitting the land with Abraham).
The reality was that Lot was justified by his faith in God, not his morality which was clearly imperfect.
Next question!
the earliest version of the earliest gospel, Mark, don't include the verses containing the risen Jesus
Ryan,
the Gospels weren't the first or the earliest Christian writings: how convenient of you to "forget" that...
Paul's Epistles, written decades before, do confess the belief in Christ's resurrection.
------------------------------
Ryan,
...in other words, you're upset with the righteous Lot for loving strangers just like they were part of his own family...
You don't have children, do you?
You seem to assume that strangers who come knocking at your door are orphans and/or non-persons.
[Or maybe you're upset with the righteous Lot for not possessing psychic powers so as to know that the strangers that came to his home were not ordinary human beings in need of his defense..]
------------------------------
GM Pilot,
I may not know much 'bout nautical matters, as you put it, but I do know enough as to not say OR write illogical AND offensive things about the people involved in them on my blogs OR in my comments...
Mark Plus,
I did not mean to demean other religions; all I meant was that when the proverbial ____ hits the proverbial fan, and the knife reaches the bone, ALL the things needed to save a man's life from nothingness and taking one's own life are not only present, but *central* to Christianity: self-giving, selfless, disinterested, unselfish love; mercy, kindness, and goodness; forgiveness; the teaching that passions/addictions are deadly and are to be fought against; the teaching that suicide is a sin; the teaching about hope, and about God's power and love for us; etc.
it is painfully obvious that no one here has the slightest interest in anything you have to say, on any subject
In other words, Ryan, Mark, GM Pilot, and yourself, are only figments of my own imagination...
[I understand that you look like a character from the Matrix in your picture, but don't you think this is taking things just a little bit TOO far?...] :-\
You obviously have a desperate need for attention.
I... want to be the center of the _negative_ attention of very many people, because... ? -- yeah, this makes a lot of sense..
get a job, get out of the house, get a life.
Hmmm... now where did I hear THAT one before? :-)
Luka; I have no problem with the Lot story, it's a story after all. I have a huge problem with your belief that arranging a heterosexual rape to prevent a homosexual rape is somehow the "lesser of two evils".
Also, obviously, Paul doesn't record the actions of the risen Jesus first hand in his epistles. So that doesn't really help you.
@Cole:
The crime of murdering Jesus is the crime of murdering a person. There's no way a common person evil or not would have jumped to the conclusion that Jesus was a god. Furthermore, I would think that a god would have more tools in his tool shed than just being beaten and killed. But hey, he knew he was coming back and that changes everything. If he's alive, the charge against humanity gets dropped to attempted murder.
Also, I notice Jesus didn't seem overly upset with anyone for his experience especially after he resurrected.
Breckmin said...
But I find it ironic how Lvka and Cole become the object of conversation rather that the questions and answers themselves which are independent of these two individuals.
Breckmin
What comments are you reading? Ryan has attempted to answer Lvkas silly response.
Ryan Anderson said...
Luka; I have no problem with the Lot story, it's a story after all. I have a huge problem with your belief that arranging a heterosexual rape to prevent a homosexual rape is somehow the "lesser of two evils".
So you accuse people of just attacking Lvka and Cole and ignore answers being given. (at least in this comment), a common fundy response.
Here is the deal, learned and unlearned people have crush your fundy garbage to smithereens, and yet people like you continue to ooze the same regurgitated crap. Nothing new that has not been refuted over and over again throughout history.
You see, one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So to constantly respond to fundy trash and expect different results would be going insane.
In Johns’ word from the O.P. “Socratic definitions pursued down the rabbit hole, splitting hairs, logical gerrymandering, re-framing the questions differently to suit one's faith, The Omniscience Escape Clause, The Faith Trump Card, and so many logical fallacies it can make one nauseous“
Yes John, it can make you nauseous, or drive you insane. So that is when you throw down the b.s for a little while, drink a cold brew and shoot some pool. Just keep what doing what your doing my friend. Just like fundies like to say, “If all my preaching saves even one sole it would be worth spending my whole life being a preacher”. If your writing is used to deliver just one PERSON out of fundy poison, I guess it’s worth the insanity hugh?
1of2
Breckmin said...
But I find it ironic how Lvka and Cole become the object of conversation rather that the questions and answers themselves which are independent of these two individuals.
Breckmin
What comments are you reading? Ryan has attempted to answer Lvkas silly response.
Ryan Anderson said...
Luka; I have no problem with the Lot story, it's a story after all. I have a huge problem with your belief that arranging a heterosexual rape to prevent a homosexual rape is somehow the "lesser of two evils".
So you accuse people of just attacking Lvka and Cole and ignore answers being given. (at least in this comment), a common fundy response.
Here is the deal, learned and unlearned people have crush your fundy garbage to smithereens, and yet people like you continue to ooze the same regurgitated crap. Nothing new that has not been refuted over and over again throughout history.
You see, one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So to constantly respond to fundy trash and expect different results would be going insane.
2of2
In Johns’ word from the O.P. “Socratic definitions pursued down the rabbit hole, splitting hairs, logical gerrymandering, re-framing the questions differently to suit one's faith, The Omniscience Escape Clause, The Faith Trump Card, and so many logical fallacies it can make one nauseous“
Yes John, it can make you nauseous, or drive you insane. So that is when you throw down the b.s for a little while, drink a cold brew and shoot some pool. Just keep what doing what your doing my friend. Just like fundies like to say, “If all my preaching saves even one sole it would be worth spending my whole life being a preacher”. If your writing is used to deliver just one PERSON out of fundy poison, I guess it’s worth the insanity hugh?
>> LADYATHEIST: I'm trying to develop a list of questions for Christians, since they always seem to have questions for me. The next time someone asks where I'll go when I die, I'll ask them why the Gospels trace Jesus' lineage through Joseph if he was the spawn of God?
Please do send me the questions, I'd love to take a stab at it. the answer to the question you give is simple, btw.
The reason is that the book of Matthew traces Jesus' lineage from Abraham and David through Joseph to show his authority (passed down throuh the man) to show that he was Messiah, and in Luke it shows Mary's lineage to show that he was also the full fleshly son of Abraham and David.
Look closely at the wording in Matthew 1:16. It does not say that Joseph begat Jesus. Joseph married Mary to whom Jesus was born. In a legal sense, Jesus was adopted by Joseph, and that makes him a son.
A little googling could have answered your question. For details, you can read http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVSermons/LineageOfJesus.htm or even wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogy_of_Jesus, or for an alternate view, http://www.theology.edu/ap10.htm. I found all these in 5 seconds using google.
Ryan and ExReformed,
the reason for my answer is self-evident, given the way in which homosexuality is viewed in the OT throughout: should've been obvious to anyone who has even the most cursory knowledge of the Bible..
Lvka, what I said was that you don't seem to know a great deal about your own beliefs. All you have to do about that is demonstrate that you do. If you do, I will gladly apologize.
The other thing I said wasn't an insult: it was the truth. If you did know about nautical affairs, you would never have said what you did say, which happens to be wrong.
A ship's captain does influence the morale, but not the morality, of his ship. Nonetheless, he is ultimately responsible for all that goes on aboard it. If there's not enough beans, or the ammo is the wrong caliber...it's his fault. But your God never seems to accept the final responsibility for all that goes on, even though his powers are greater than that of any captain.
A proper ship's captain knows better.
exreformed,
cipher's red herring of get a job, get a life is more of a personal attack on Lvka then actually dealing with anything specific.
Why not ask real questions and specifically deal with those answers (which are independent of the answerER themselves).
There are many questions to field like the one I asked under the "spooky" video of the baby/toddler worshipping.
Why did Jesus say forgive them for they knew not what they were doing? How can you judge someone who doesn't know any better?
How come there is so much suffering in the world today if God is an Infinite Power Who is in control of all circumstances?
These are logical questions to ask and begin to get real answers (if you are WILLING to connect the dots).
Question everything! but when you question...remember that God is more interested in hearts than just your knowledge and fear.
Post a Comment