The Value of Conversion/Deconversion Stories

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We here at DC tell why we rejected Christianity in both personal deconversion stories, and with our arguments. Regarding our deconversion stories, it's disheartening when Christians on the web tell me I was never saved in the first place, or that deep inside I still believe. The equivalent for the Christian conversion story would be if naysayers argued that such a person never truly converted at all! Think how THAT would frustrate you! I take Christian claims of faith at face value. Why won't all Christians take our claims of unbelief at face value?

Let me comment on Dave Armstrong's recent evaluation of my deconversion story. In the first place, I want to thank him for thinking my story was worth reading and spending 4 hours on. I guess my story was worthy of a look (even if he won't bother to read the whole story until he can get my book for 25 cents at a bargain bookstore)!

When he criticized my deconversion story it was the last straw for my emotions that day. I think I've been treated like this for far too long, and I have been patient at worse attacks on me and my integrity. I think my problem was that I had hoped for better from Dave, that's all, which is a compliment to him that I thought this of him. I guess I will never hope for a better treatment again from any Christian apologist about my deconversion story, even if they read the whole story.

The argument that people convert to Christianity or deconvert away from it for less than justifiable reasons, is the natural reaction for someone who disagrees with that particular story, depending on which side of the fence one changes to. It's what we all do, depending on the particular story. When Anthony Flew claimed he was a Deist, many atheists said he did so for less than adequate reasons, for instance. This is natural. But these stories are also personal ones, so it's hard to see criticisms of them in a non-personal, objective way.

Personal reasons for converting or deconverting are just that, personal reasons. They only explain why someone changed, even if others don't see those stories as having any logical force at all. To the observant, these stories only make a rational case for the change when the person states the reasons for changing, even if no one can comprehensively articulate all of the reasons why he changed. Those reasons are left to be completely fleshed out later, and we do that here on a daily basis.

Carry on then. Let's stick to the issues.

My Deconversion Story--Criticized

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Dave Armstrong criticized my deconversion experience here. Please note my comment afterward. Does anyone understand why I don't bother to respond in detail to such drivel? He wants to fault me. So why bother dialoguing with him about it? No matter what I say, I'll be wasting my time. Oh, but I wish rather than fault-finding some Christian would seek to understand. But they cannot try, even though on any other issue of disagreement intelligent people will try. It's called respecting people as people, and Dave's Christianity does not do that with people who don't agree with him.

A Leader in the Atheist Movement Online?

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Raymond Lam recently wrote:
"I have noticed a lot of interesting secular/atheist websites that are devoted to disputing the core tenets and legitimacy of Christianity. Sites like Infidels and Debunking Christianity are the leaders in the atheist movement online."
Whether this is true or not I can't say (of us anyway), but it's a nice compliment that at least one person thinks we're doing well here. Thanks!

Dave Armstrong weighs in by saying DC is "my favorite atheist/agnostic haunt at the moment." Haunt us if you will Dave!

Should I Debate a Calvinist on the Problem of Evil?

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So far two people have responded that they would debate me. One is a Calvinist. To debate a Calvinist on the problem of evil is an open and shut case. All I have to do is to ask the Calvinist why God prefers a world like ours to a world where everyone obeys him. Now let's say a Calvinist offers an answer and is unconvinced by any of my replies. I never said I could convince those who hold to absolutely idiotic beliefs such as this one, that they are wrong. Any thinking person not already blinded by their faith would see the obvious and serious problem here. Why does God prefer this world to that one? Answer this if you can.

Richard Dawkins on BBC

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Richard Dawkins is interviewed here about his new book, The God Delusion, which I am presently reading. To read a review of his book see the Secular Outpost.

Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

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[Written by John W. Loftus] I don't believe what I wrote below for a minute, being the atheist that I am. But the two articles below got me fired from teaching philosophy at Great Lakes Christian College, Lansing MI. Those of you who read my book might be interested. See what you think.
Is Baptism Necessary For Salvation? [From: Integrity July/August 1995 issue]. 
When someone asks me what they should do to be saved, I usually say they can do nothing. Salvation is free in Christ Jesus, I continue. God in Christ has provided the sacrifice that alone offers us salvation. What God has done we could not do. Our responsibility is to lovingly respond to God’s personal gift in Christ. We do this by a faith that compels us to repent, confess, and be immersed in baptism. 
Nothing of what follows is meant to undercut this basic message. I am not of the opinion that we should change the message we have been commissioned to preach. If the message includes baptism, then we should teach and preach it, even if we don’t quite understand why. 
But we who wish to preach this message of salvation are presented with a particularly unique problem. The problem is that such a message is not widely shared among those who claim to be Christians. This fact must be recognized and dealt with honestly. Are we the only Christians, or are we Christians only? 
The Development of Legalism –  
When the Restoration Movement began in the 1830’s, many different churches united into one body of believers. The people of these various churches claimed no other name but Christ’s, no other book but the Bible, no other creed but Christ. Our movement brought Christians together under the Lordship of Christ even though many of them didn’t agree about everything important. And herein lies some irony. In our zeal to restore a biblical view of baptism in the salvific process, somewhere along the line we developed a legalistic view of baptism, demanding its necessity before someone can be saved. Hence, rather than uniting all believers in Christ as we did in the past, we now exclude them from our fellowship because of their views on baptism. A movement that began to unite people under Christ now separates them. 
The legalistic view of baptism in its extreme form maintains that unless someone is baptized that person will be in hell throughout all eternity; an unbaptized person is a lost person regardless of his or her faith in Christ, and should not expect to have eternal salvation. A Christian who holds this extreme view of baptism probably could not worship with an unbaptized person, and would certainly not want to be a part of a worship experience where an unbaptized person is the worship leader or preacher. “What fellowship has a believer with an unbeliever?” they might ask. (II Corinthians 6:15). 
Have We Forgotten Unity? –  
In the interest of helping us regain our role in uniting people who seek to follow Christ, let me ask some questions and offer some criticisms of the legalistic view of baptism. In doing this I know there will be Christians who will respond quite negatively. A sacred cow is, after all, something which does not come down easily. But it’s one that must tumble if we want to be honest with God’s word and his interests in the world. 
Some of my questions will be based upon reason as well as Scripture. There is little that should alarm a Christian at such an admission. God created us with the desire for intellectual coherence of all that we believe by faith. It is through our reasoning abilities that we try to make sense of the data of Scripture and our lives into a coherent whole. To deny reason is to deny our faith because ours is a reasonable faith. Of course, reason should not be the judge of Scripture, nor should it be used to deny a clear teaching of Scripture. Faith and reason compliment one another, and they shouldn’t come into conflict because we serve a reasonable God. 
Having said all of this, I offer the following ten clusters of questions: 
Ten Clusters of Questions – 
1) Why is it the N.T. never states that anyone who has not been baptized will go to hell? Can we honestly conceive of a loving God who would condemn a person to hell who deeply loved him—except that the person failed to be baptized? It isn’t hard to see why many people view us as misguided, legalistic, and cold-hearted. If such a God existed, they would say, he would not be good. 
Besides, there is a huge difference between an affirmative statement and a negative one. If I gave someone detailed directions on how to get to my house, I would be telling them the best way to get here. What I would not be telling them is how they can’t get here. Telling people how to get here is an entirely different question than telling them how they can’t get here. There may be several ways to my house. By the same token, by telling us to be baptized God is revealing to us the best way to accept salvation. What he’s not doing is revealing that there is no other way to be saved except by being baptized. 
2) Baptism pools (called mikvehs) were abundant throughout Israel in John the Baptist’s and in Jesus’ day. These pools pre-date the preaching of John the Baptist, who baptized Jews in preparation for Jesus’ coming. They were used in a ceremonial rite of cleansing in preparation for worship. To these people baptism symbolized purity. Any visitor to Israel today can still see the ruins of these pools at Masada, Qumran, Capernaum, Korazin, and Jerusalem. Is it too hard to suppose such washings were brought into Christianity as a cultural symbol, yet divine requirement, of full commitment? There doesn't seem to be anything transcultural about the act of baptism itself. People from other cultures would not automatically recognize the act of baptism as indicating purity or suggesting full commitment. Perhaps baptism was a divine requirement to a people who understood its meaning. If so, then what would God think of believers in today’s culture who failed to be baptized because baptism was not viewed in the same way? 
3) Isn’t it true that throughout the gospels we see a Jesus who is much more interested in the heart attitudes than any outward act? While some acts were important (Matthew 23:23), it was the heart that mattered the most to him (Matthew 5-7; 12:33-34). Outward acts of righteousness merely show the inner disposition of the heart. 
4) Paul opposed anything that could be considered a sacred cow in deference to the worship of God himself. The apostle Paul is on record as opposing the rite of circumcision because some Jewish Christians used it to exclude uncircumcised believers from their fellowship. Paul argues against this view in the book of Galatians. Likewise, when the Corinthian believers took undue pride in the person who baptized them, Paul minimized baptism. He wrote: “I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name.” He also stated that “Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach (I Corinthians 1:14-17). Could Paul really say this if baptism was the exact point of salvation? Even though many Corinthians boasted of who they were baptized by, Paul nowhere commanded them to be rebaptized. He calls them “brothers” (I Corinthians 1:10), indicating Paul thought their baptisms were legitimate ones. If Paul thought they were saved at the point of baptism, shouldn’t he rejoice in their baptism, regardless of the mixed motives at work? Paul’s response here stands in contrast to his view of those who preached from mixed motives. There he rejoices that the job is getting done regardless of their motives (Philippians 1:15-18). 
5) Paul taught baptism as a response to God’s grace (Galatians 3:27; Romans 6). But we must ask what Paul might say if he met the legalists among us who border on stressing baptism to the exclusion of grace through faith? His message stressed grace through faith, and surely he would reject anything that would supplant it or disgrace it. When I have asked students in many of our Sunday Schools what they must do to be saved, most often the answer I hear from them is this: “Be baptized.” This is a gross misunderstanding of Paul’s message. It leads me to wonder how much Paul would downplay baptism in order to stress Christ. What would Paul say if he saw baptism profaned like the Jews profaned circumcision? Would Paul once again stress “a circumcision of the heart” (Romans 2:29) over the rite itself? 
6) Is God narrow-minded enough to condemn people for minor offenses of ignorance if they earnestly seek him? To answer in the affirmative is to misunderstand the holiness of God whereby holiness is equated with legalistic righteousness, like the Pharisees of Jesus’ day. Whom do you think is more valuable to God, someone who loves him, prays daily, studies his word, tells others about Christ, or someone who is baptized and just attends church once a month? I find it extremely difficult to think that God, in all of his intelligence, cannot see life in terms of a series of trade-offs, like most of us do all of the time. When our kids offer sincere commitment to help us around the house, should we condemn them when they forget to do something we consider important? Or should we look past what they neglected to do and note their desire to please us? I don’t see anywhere in the Bible where sincerity in devotion to God is outright condemned in nonessential matters. In the case of Christian baptism, aren’t our faith and our love the essential things about the act? 
7) Should the experience of all unbaptized people who claim to be Christians be discounted in total? We use universal experience to argue for the existence of God. Most scholars will also admit that we simply cannot interpret the Bible in a vacuum—that personal experience helps to interpret the Bible—and that anyone who says they discount all experience when coming to the Bible is merely naïve. Many unbaptized people who claim Christ as Lord and Savior have received manifestations of the fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). They testify to answered prayer, they are zealously evangelistic, and have an inner strength they claim could only come from the Holy Spirit of God. I myself experienced this three months before I was baptized. 
8) There are many commands in the Bible that we fail to obey on a daily basis, called sins of omission. Why is it that omitting to be baptized is so grievous a sin when compared to the person who fails to evangelize, or who doesn’t care for orphans and widows (James 1:27), or fails to visit those in prison or feed the poor (Matthew 25:34-40)? The legalistic view of baptism makes an unbaptized person one who has committed the unpardonable sin. Is this a just God? Is this a merciful God? Is this a proper view of God’s holiness? 
9) God is God. He is not in a box of our making. The Pharisees misunderstood God, although they did their exegesis. Can we be humble enough to admit that the legalistic view may be wrong? There are many people in other Christian churches who read their Bibles and cannot see it any other way than what their particular denomination teaches. Some of these people are poor, unintelligent, illiterate, downtrodden, and abused. How will God judge these people because they could not see the error of their church leaders, whom they respected and trusted? While in ministry Jesus showed a special love for these very people (Luke 4:18-19). Would God reject them because they could not see the truth on this issue? 
10) Then there is a very practical problem. I baptized both my son and daughter when they were each ten years old. Most all of us will say that my children, at the earliest stages of their lives, were not yet accountable and so were safe in God’s hands. But what if my wife and I misjudged their faith and baptized them before they were fully accountable? If this is the case then, like infant baptism, is their baptism null and void? And what if they are never rebaptized, thinking they had already fulfilled their duty to God? Are they now lost? But what if we put our children’s baptism off because we wanted to make sure they knew what they were doing? Would we be placing them in danger of eternal condemnation because they may indeed be accountable to God but not yet baptized? What if they died while we waited an extra year or so? To deny them salvation would place an undue burden upon parents who would be required to decide the exact day each child was ready to be baptized. If baptism is the exact moment of salvation, then we dare not baptize our children one day early or one day late. 
Conclusions – The result of all of this is that there are cases in which baptism is not necessary for salvation in a legalistic fashion. Surely God is not Pharisee-like in his holiness, but instead desires a loving interpersonal relationship with his creatures. Yes, he has commanded baptism as a part of the soteriological process, but only as a loving Father and not a legalistic potentate. He is a personal God who responds to us in personal ways. 
 
Is Baptism Necessary--One More Time [From Integrity, Jan/Feb 1996]. 
I’ve received several negative responses to my previous article titled: “Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation.” Some thought I was offering a promise of salvation to those who refuse to be baptized. But this simply missed what I was saying. I stated quite clearly that the message of salvation includes baptism, and this is what we tell those who desire to be saved. I dealt strictly with the issue of the unbaptized believer and how God would respond to such a person on judgment day. As far as I can tell there are any number of positions to take on baptism. Here are four positions on baptism: 
Position one: They preach baptism for salvation and also believe those who aren’t baptized are lost. 
Position two: They preach baptism for salvation, but they don’t claim to know the fate of the unbaptized. 
Position Three: They preach baptism in order to “identify with Christ,” but those who aren’t baptized can still be saved. 
Position Four: Baptism is not included in their preaching, because it is just a cultural symbol of salvation. Baptism just isn’t that important. 
 While there are other positions on baptism, my position is closest to number three above. In my previous article I was arguing against position number one above, and while I at least understand view number two, I will argue against that view shortly. I do not hold to position number four. 
A "Cluster" of Responses --
My articulation of the third position comes from Virgil Warren’s writings. He speaks of “a cluster” of responses to God’s offer of salvation in Christ, which in turn restores our relationship to God and allows us to receive the gifts that come with that restored relationship. Taken together these responses identify us with Christ on an interpersonal level. He writes: “Repentance, faith, and baptism are not three things, but aspects of one whole response: repentant faith expressed in baptism. The total response identifies a person with Jesus Christ. Identity with Christ is the basic condition for the natural set of gifts that form one whole consequence: restored relationship.” 
“There is one issue--interpersonal relationship, one condition--personal identity with Christ, and one consequence--reconciliation between persons. [Virgil Warren, “The Interpersonal Nature of Christian Baptism,” Christian Standard, Jan. 7 & 14, 1990]. 
Because we have adopted a legal--versus interpersonal--system for understanding baptism, Warren charges that “Christian baptism gets transformed into something akin to a business transaction with the feel of (a) automatic and (b) uniform results.” Hence, “a repentant believer committed to Jesus Christ might die without baptism through some misunderstanding or insuperable circumstance. His situation gets interpreted as being like the case where someone has not filled out properly all the right documents for a passport, or like a case where someone becomes a traffic fatality on the way to signing for a sizable life insurance policy.” By contrast, in an interpersonal system, Warren writes, “formal matters like baptism can even be overlooked entirely for legitimate practical reasons. Paul observed this principle when he says of circumcision in its spiritual dimension: ‘If then the uncircumcised keeps the ordinances of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?’” (Romans 2:26).[Virgil Warren, “A Position Statement on the Meaning of Christian Baptism.” As far as I can tell this paper is unpublished, but similar statements can be found in his “Concepts and Practices Foreign to Christian Baptism” Christian Standard, July 22 & 29, 1990]. 
Warren continues by claiming that: "We are not dealing with a God who is trying to see how many people he can send to hell; so we do not expect condemnation on a technicality or condemnation because the ‘paperwork’ did not get done in time.” “What is really necessary is identification in Christ, and God has commanded baptism as the formal way of doing that.” But “the identity with Christ, not the act that identifies us with Christ, is what provides the basis for salvation.” [Virgil Warren “A Position Statement...” See also his “Understanding Christian Ordinances,” a paper delivered at the Open Forum in Indianapolis March 15, 1989, and his book: What the Bible Says About Baptism (College Press, 1982), pp. 194-409].
In another context (including but not limited to baptism), Warren speaks about honest misunderstanding in formal matters, and he argues that such misunderstanding “should not be categorized with intentional disobedience in interpersonal matters. In respect to honest misunderstanding we take it that God looks on the heart and knows people’s intentions.” And while sincerity does not save us, “hopefully it does make us forgivable. Misaction based on honest misunderstanding is still misaction, but something can be erroneous without being reckoned against us. Errors are not reckoned till knowledge comes (Romans 7:9, 10; cp. 3:25; 4:15; 5:13; Acts 17:30-31) at which time the repentance-forgiveness process comes into play.” [Virgil Warren “Central to Less Central: An Interpersonal Format for Prioritizing Issues in Christian Unity” Christian Standard. September 4, 1988]. 
When Baptism Becomes Legalistic --
I turn now to the major objection some have with my claim that “baptism is not necessary for salvation in a legalistic fashion.” This objection is phrased something like this: 
1) “God commanded baptism in order to receive salvation, so you do not have the authority to change his command.” 
2) “Moreover, what God says cannot be changed because God is unchanging and His word is eternally true.” 
In regard to the first objection: By admitting that people can be saved without being baptized it is true that I am commenting on something God didn’t comment on, speaking where he didn’t speak, making a claim that he didn’t make. I admit this. Yet I think we do this all of the time. Anytime we deal with an issue that God didn’t deal with we are doing this. For instance, there are a great many ethical issues that the Bible doesn’t strictly speak to. Where in the Bible is a direct discussion of the morality of nuclear war, socialism, contraception, euthanasia, gambling, genetic engineering, surrogate mothering, suicide, civil lawsuits in a democracy, and so on? There are a host of ethical issues, apologetical issues, and theological issues where the Bible simply doesn’t speak about directly--issues too numerous to list. Yet when confronted with these issues we must make decisions about them based upon inferences and deductions from Scriptural premises. [Thomas Campbell in the Declaration & Address (Proposition 6) admitted that “inferences and deductions from scriptural premises, when fairly inferred, may be truly called the doctrine of God’s holy word...”]. 
The objection, of course, is that God has spoken regarding baptism and that the message is clear. So by speaking otherwise I am changing what he so clearly stated. To the contrary, I claim that God didn’t speak to the issue of the unbaptized believer. He didn’t do so precisely because there weren’t any such people in the early church. Every believer was a baptized believer. This is Paul’s assumption in Romans 6, because at that point in his discussion Paul was finished speaking about God’s gift of salvation and our response of faith. In Romans 6, Paul uses baptism to illustrate the effects of salvation, something every believer in his day had done. 
The argument that I’m making is similar to the one claiming that the Bible didn’t speak directly to the kind of dehumanizing slavery that existed just prior to the Civil War. It’s clear that the Bible doesn’t outright condemn slavery, so the argument goes, because the slavery in Biblical times was different; it was more “humane.” The slavery in Biblical times could be the result of the spoils of war, but it could also be voluntarily chosen, or a form of punishment for non-payment of a debt--something socially acceptable. At the very least it did not deny the full personhood of slaves. By contrast, our country in the nineteenth century denied black people the status of personhood. Slavery in our era could be much more brutal. But if American slavery was very different from slavery in Biblical days, then the Bible didn’t speak directly to the issue of American slavery. Therefore, the anti-slavery movement turned instead toward principles found in the Bible that condemned it, like the brotherhood of man (cf. Acts 17:26). The modern argument on behalf of homosexuality depends on the same kind of argument. This argument is based upon the claim that the Bible does not speak directly toward a loving monogamous relationship for life between two persons of the same sex. Sound hermeneutics admits such a possible argument. Those who would argue against homosexuality cannot merely quote Scripture verses unless they deal seriously with the claim that the Bible is only condemning gratuitous homosexual lascivious acts. 
There is nothing wrong in doing this. Jesus himself regularly claimed that certain Scripture verses did not directly apply to the ethical and/or theological issues before him. The “sermon on the mount” of Jesus is an example of this. Overall, it is a sustained argument that seeks to show that the Pharisees of his day misapplied the text of the Old Testament in life and teaching. That is why Jesus is seen stressing his strong belief in Biblical authority before the statements that followed. He said: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (Matthew 5:17-20). Jesus knew that he had to stress Biblical authority because the Pharisees would think that by denying their understandings he would be denying God’s word. Then too, Jesus’ controversy over the Sabbath day is mainly an argument over the applicability of certain Biblical texts to certain situations. Jesus maintained that these texts didn’t apply legalistically to the particular issues at hand. 
Likewise in the case of Christian baptism, the whole issue depends entirely upon whether or not the New Testament speaks directly to the issue of the unbaptized believer. I simply maintain that it does not do so. The fact that I believe this is not changing God’s commandment at all, for there isn’t anything to change. I do believe however, that there are Biblical principles that speak indirectly to this issue which force me to conclude that “baptism is not necessary for salvation in a legalistic fashion.” 
Is God Flexible? --
Let me now turn to the second part of the major objection to my position: that “what God says cannot be changed because God is unchanging and his word eternally true.” Your readers should know that the immutability of God is presently undergoing a revision by non-Calvinists, among whom I count myself. The Calvinistic doctrine teaches that God cannot change at all. I believe this doctrine comes from the Greek philosopher Plato, who argued that God must be an eternally perfect being so that any change in God must by definition be a change for the worst. Now it is true that God is described as unchanging (Ex. 3:14-15; 34:6-7; Numb. 23:19; Psalms 33:11; Mal. 3:6; Heb. 13:8). But what does it mean to say this? Christians agree that God’s nature and character do not change. But do these verses require more of God than that? Does God know of no change whatsoever? God is described as changing in several passages (Gen. 6:6-7; Ex. 32:10-14; Dt. 9:13-25; I Sam. 15:11; Psalms 106:44-45; Jer. 18:7-10; Joel 2:13; Amos 7:3; Jonah 3:10). 
Along with many other non-Calvinists I deny that God is the sort of being Plato said he was. He is not a Platonic idea, law, or static Being out there who cannot adapt to new situations and human choices. I would consider such a Being an imperfect God—one who cannot be flexible. I would affirm that God is a loving person (I John 4:8), and it is the essence of love to be flexible and to change in response to the ones to whom love sets its affection. A static God who cannot change in response to us cannot be a loving God. Instead he remains an aloof judge or rule setting potentate. A loving father on the other hand, is something quite different. So I maintain that we either serve a dynamic God or we don’t serve a God of love at all. [For an introduction to this non-Calvinistic kind of thinking see Clark H. Pinnock & Robert C. Brow, Unbounded Love (Downers Grove: IVP, 1994). While it still has its problems see also The Openness of God by Clark Pinnock, Rice, Sanders, Hasker, and Basinger (Downers Grove: IVP, 1994). To be fair, one doesn’t need to accept this point in order to think God is flexible and accommodating to us. I fail to see though, how an inflexible and completely unchanging Being can be a father to his children]. 
The Calvinistic doctrine of God’s immutability is blown apart in the incarnation of Christ. God-in-Christ revealed himself as one who enjoys relationships, makes decisions, acts upon plans, and has deep feelings. The parables of the lost coin, lost sheep and lost son indicate a God who knows both loss and discovery, joy and sorrow. We also see him deal creatively with each person he meets. 
This more correct understanding about God doesn’t lead us to the conclusion that God doesn’t mean what he says. On the contrary, what God says is eternal, and his word is ever true (Mt. 24:35). But what it does suggest is that he is a true Person, and this involves being flexible with his people. That is, while his overall will for us doesn’t change, because his nature and character are immutable, his methods do change. He adapts to our feeble efforts to please him, he is flexible with us because of our capriciousness, and he is compassionate with our shortcomings. This is his grace. 
In the Old Testament we see God being flexible with people on the issue of divorce. Jesus said that it was because of the hardness of their hearts that an exception granting a divorce was allowed by God. (Matt. 19:8). [While Jesus informs us that it was Moses who permitted this exception, it would be incorrect to read Deuteronomy 24:1-4 and conclude anything else but that Moses was speaking by God’s authority]. Yes, God was not pleased to allow such an exception, but, and here’s the extremely important point for our purposes, he allowed/tolerated it because of his love for his people. They didn’t follow his intended rules, but God made allowances for this because he loved them and didn’t want to make life unduly unbearable for them. 
God also allowed/tolerated the eye for an eye, tooth for tooth principle of revengeful judicial punishment (Ex. 21:23-25; Mt. 5:38-39). Apparently, such a limiting principle actually saved lives since many people of that day undertook revenge on every member of a particular family for a particular offense. The eye for eye principle ends up legitimizing a brutal and uncivilized kind of punishment because it was more “humane” than the barbaric kind of punishment meted out by ancient people. In the Gospels Jesus stressed a love for one’s enemies that would eventually undercut such a barbaric kind of revengeful punishment among civilized societies. God accommodates to us with his commands; this too is his grace. He deals as a Person to persons. 
In the New Testament Jesus demanded all or nothing when it came to following him; but he certainly tolerates less. Jesus demanded an all or nothing approach to possessions: “sell your possessions and give to the poor” (Luke 12:33), and “you cannot serve both God and money” (Mt. 6:24). Yet, most people in his day and our own do not obey this. Jesus further stated that the cost of being a disciple involves being willing to “hate his father and mother, his wife and his children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life.” Otherwise, Jesus continued, “he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26-27). Whom would you suggest has obeyed this command fully in his or her heart? Even if you can find people who have done this to a great degree, it doesn’t mean that Christ rejects those who don’t have this complete commitment. The reason, again, is because of his gracious love and mercy. He loves us and accepts us where we are in our commitments and understandings. This is exactly what it means to love. There is no contradiction in God demanding everything but accepting less. This is the point at which God’s holiness meets his grace, where God’s commandments meet man’s misobedience, and where God’s desires meet man’s actions. 
So let’s grant the entirely Biblical view that God commanded baptism for salvation. How would he lovingly respond to the situation we presently face today with a wide divergence of opinion in the denominational world over baptism? What exactly would God do about the person who was misinformed about baptism by a denominational preacher, and who didn’t have the intellectual muscle to see through that teaching? Would God hold a person accountable for not being able to think through the arguments of such a preacher, when this is the only thing he’s ever been taught? 
Someone might simply respond by charging that baptism is clearly stated in the N.T., and I agree. But then we must ask: If it is so clearly stated in the N.T., then why have a majority of Christians gotten it wrong, both in the past and the present? I don’t have an answer for this. I do know that we think foot washing is cultural, and so is greeting one another with a kiss. We reinterpret what a woman should be wearing in church on her head, and whether or not we should sell all our possessions and give to the poor. Many denominational church leaders think this way about baptism, and we think they are wrong. But will God actually punish someone eternally simply because they are wrong on this? The answer I believe that is the most Biblical, reasonable and loving is that he would accept/tolerate their ignorance on this issue provided they longed to follow him with their heart and sought to obey all that they knew God to command. He demands baptism but he would lovingly accept the other committed believers in Christ. 
Some would disagree by saying, “we simply don’t know whether or not they’ll be saved--they have no guarantee of salvation.” I understand this. But didn’t Jesus compare our love with God’s when he said that if we know how to give a loaf of bread to our children when they ask for it, then how much more will God give us that which we ask for? (Matt. 7:9-11) In other words, our love for our children is something like God’s love for us, except that God’s love is much more than that. So if any of us were to judge a committed but unimmersed believer, it would be a no-brainer--we would show mercy. So I ask, if we humans would extend mercy, then how much more would a loving God be willing to do so? 
God is Holy (Isaiah 6:3). This is true. But the Biblical God does not have a Pharisaic or legalistic kind of holiness (cf. Mt. 5:20). This is something Jesus battled against most forcefully in the Sabbath Day controversy. Jesus taught that it was okay to break the Sabbath law in order to save someone out of a pit, and likewise to heal simply because people were more important than mechanical obedience to laws (cf. Mt. 12:1-14). It is here Jesus quoted from Hosea 6:6, in which God says: “I desire mercy not sacrifice.” I think it’s fair to say with Jesus that God is much more interested in our character (our “mercy”) than in being punctiliously obedient in the outward observance of baptism (our “sacrifice”). 
A legalist is someone who stresses the letter of the law: “be baptized or else be damned.” I simply reject the notion that a holy God must by definition be a legalist. I follow the principle laid down by Jesus who stated that “the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.” (Mark 2:27) I would preach baptism, but in following this principle, baptism would not be allowed to be legalistic stumbling block in the way of human need--in this case a restored relationship with God. To paraphrase Jesus here, “baptism was made for man, not man for baptism.” 
So again I ask, knowing what we know about God, would he really withhold salvation from people for whom he died merely because they were misinformed about baptism? With all of the sins we have as Christians I think God has much bigger problems to deal with than whether or not we’ve been baptized (cf. 1 & 2 Corinthians; Revelation 2-3). And if his grace isn’t active before conversion leading us to him, then how would we come to him in the first place (John 6:44)? And why would he withhold his mercy and love from us because we failed to do an act that neither feeds the poor, or helps a neighbor in distress--things which he surely is more concerned that we do (Jas. 1:27; Matt. 25:31-46)? 
Evidence of God's Blessing --
Those who disagree on this remind me of the people who argued with Paul and Barnabas at the first council in Jerusalem (Acts 15). Here they were debating whether to accept Gentiles into the church who were not circumcised. They made their arguments and counter-arguments. Paul’s argument however, included personal experience and testimony that he had witnessed God giving Gentile believers the Holy Spirit, and that God “purified their hearts by faith.”(vs. 9) In the midst of their debate it says that “the whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them.”(vs. 12) The irony is that those who disagreed with Paul were claiming that God wouldn’t accept uncircumcised Gentiles, when God was already doing so! 
Likewise our discussion about whether God will save sincere but unimmersed believers needs to stop and examine the testimony of what God is doing around the world in the lives of people.
I have met many such people and heard their testimonies. I have been affected in my view of baptism by attending Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, and Marquette University, and meeting what appeared to be believing students and teachers who were unimmersed. I have attended philosophical lectures and debates where Christianity was defended by believing philosophers who probably were unimmersed, and I have read their writings. I have been affected by listening to some musical artists like Amy Grant, Steve Green, and others who lead me to God even though I have no idea as to whether they have been baptized. I have read the writings of Charles Colson, James Dobson, and others who don’t see it as essential. Seeing the number of lives that have been changed by Billy Graham rallies and meeting some of them, has affected my understanding. So also has my being involved in pro-life causes and rallies, and the Promise Keepers, none of which views baptism as an important doctrine with which they are concerned about. I cannot deny what I have experienced in seeing lives who were obviously touched by God, yet not baptized. Mine was one of them prior to baptism. 
Then too, I’ve done a lot of reading of some great defenders of the faith in Christian history who were apparently unimmersed. There are also long-standing denominations whose official teaching and practice allows infant baptism. 
Those who deny experience in assessing the status of the unbaptized believer are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Paul’s experience of conversion was itself a powerful argument for the truth of Christianity (Acts 9, 22, & 26). While experience is not the test for truth, our understanding of the truth must be able to explain personal experience. I cannot stress this truth too much. Experience has always been a check on exegesis, whether it comes to Wesleyan perfectionism, perseverance of the saints, second coming predictions, Pentecostal miracle workers, understanding marriage, parenting, ministry, and so on. The whole science/religion discussion is an attempt to harmonize the Bible with what scientists have experienced through empirical observations of the universe. According to James Sire in The Universe Next Door [(IVP, 1988), p. 214-217] one of the tests to judge worldviews is whether they comprehend the data of reality--data of all types. Likewise, for our purposes here, the data that must be comprehended within the Restoration movement is the experience of thousands upon thousands of unimmersed believing people who have had the same experience of God as we. That they do have the same experience can’t be denied, as far as any outsider can tell anything of someone elses experience--except that I am not an outsider to such an experience before baptism
Before I finish, let me quote from someone who took a very strong public stand on the clear teaching about baptism, and yet personally believed that sincere unimmersed people were Christians. He wrote: 
“Who is a Christian?...I cannot make any one duty the standard of Christian state or character, not even immersion into the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and in my heart regard all that have been sprinkled in infancy without their knowledge and consent, as aliens from Christ and the well-grounded hope of heaven. 
Should I find a paedo-baptist more intelligent in the Christian Scriptures, more spiritually-minded and more devoted to the Lord than...one immersed on a profession of faith, I could not hesitate a moment in giving the preference of my heart to him that loveth most. Did I act otherwise, I would be a pure sectarian, a Pharisee among Christians....I do not substitute one commandment, for universal or even general obedience. And should I see a sectarian Baptist or a paedobaptist more spiritually minded, more generally conformed to the requisitions of the Messiah, than the one who precisely acquiesces with me in the theory or practice of immersion as I teach, doubtless the former rather than the latter, would have my cordial approbation and love as a Christian. So I judge and so I feel. It is the image of Christ the Christian looks for and loves; and this does not consist in being exact in a few items, but in general devotion to the whole truth as far as known....” 
The author of the above quoted letter was Alexander Campbell recognized as one of the founders of the Church of Christ. [From his famous “Lunenburg Letter” quoted by James DeForest Murch in Christians Only (Standard Publishing, 1962), p. 118.] According to James DeForest Murch, this was a position he reiterated in columns of the Millennial Harbinger and quoted extensively from The Christian Baptist and other published works to show that he had always held to this position. 
At this juncture I’m reminded that in Thomas Campbell’s Declaration & Address (Proposition # 3) he wrote: “nothing ought to be inculcated upon Christians as articles of faith, nor required of them as terms of communion, but what is expressly taught and enjoined upon them in the word of God.” If I’m correct that the New Testament doesn’t expressly teach about unbaptized believers, then by Campbell’s own standards what I conclude in this area is not something that should receive censure--it falls into the area of liberty. 
Barton Stone, the other leader in the Stone-Campbell movement, would go beyond a mere personal statement on the issue. He favored fellowship on an equal basis between the immersed and the unimmersed in Christian churches, thus “making Christian character the sole test of fellowship.” [James DeForest Murch, Christians Only, (p. 119)]. 
------------------------------------------------------ 
John W. Loftus is an adjunct instructor of philosophy for Kellogg Community College in Battle Creek, MI; and Tri-State University in Angola, IN. Because of his previous article, “Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation” (Integrity July/August 1995) his teaching contract with Great Lakes Christian College, Lansing, MI, was not renewed.

Landover Baptist Church Preacher

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This preacher caught my attention. Take a look. It's a parady, of course. Kinda funny too. And better than others I've seen from the Christian side of the fence.

When Does God Turn on Us?

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I was contemplating the statements of a recent comment in which the person indicated, in a macabre Jack Chicksian sort of way, that in the afterlife God would be stamping on heathen faces until the blood splattered on His clothing.

What is it about Death that makes God so mad at us?

Read more…


Traditional Christianity paints a picture of a God that is extremely interested in humanity’s well being. This is a God that is so concerned about how the world is turning out, that it is willing to kill every single living creature, preserving only a miniscule amount, in the hopes that the conditions in which humanity survives will improve. (Gen. 6:21)

This is a God that is willing to kill millions of people in order to preserve an ethnic group to provide means of a possible resolution for some. (Ten Plagues)

This is a God that performed the ultimate act of humility, literally giving up its God-like abilities and powers for a time, in the hopes that some will learn of him. (Phil. 2:6) A God that committed to the greatest act of love every known in the entire course of history, by somehow killing itself, in order to save me. (John 15:13) A God that is patiently waiting and hoping that I will recognize him as God. (2 Pet. 3:9)

Christianity paints a picture of a God, that for time eternal has moved and turned the course of historical events, in the hopes that I (along with other humans) will be restored to a relationship with him. A God that has interacted, wept, begged, pleaded, sweated, strained, bled and died on the chance that I could be saved. A God that has withheld its own sense of justice, and has patiently and continually restrained itself, in an act of mercy, on the hopes that I will find Him.

Until I die.

Then it is a no-holds-barred, full frontal assault of excruciating pain, misery and punishment for all time.

Jesus: Father, you know I died for that DagoodS fellow. Here are the nail prints in my hands. I can re-play the events of my death, all for this person to come to you.
God: Well….

Jesus: I am begging you; pleading with you. It is for him that I stripped myself of God-hood, became a mere human, suffered, and was horribly tortured. Worse, I was separated from you—something I have never experienced and never will again. A new experience for a God—all in the off-chance that you will call him to us. (John 6:44)
God: You make a good point. Maybe—

Angel One: psst. Jesus? Sorry. DagoodS just died.
Jesus: What? Oh, never mind, God. Whoopee! He just died! Put on the Golf cleats. It is face-stomping time. Oh, this is the best part of the job. Maybe this time I can get a good one meter splatter!

Does that really make sense? Christianity claims a God that can muster a universe, is so loving it performs a sacrifice unlike any heard of before or since, but somehow death makes God turn a bit ugly. He is unable to maintain that loving attitude after we die.

What, exactly, is the lake of fire for? Punishment?

Punishment (as we understand it) comprises of four elements—punish the wrongdoer, rehabilitate the wrongdoer, recompense the victim, and be a deterrent to the general society.

Hell certainly won’t rehabilitate us. We have no second chance. Nothing about our getting better. No “time off for good behavior.” No opportunity to re-enter society. Rehabilitation is not it.

It is useless as a deterrent. In order to be a deterrent, one must be firmly convinced of hell’s existence. The only ones that believe in hell are the ones that aren’t going there! (Ever think about that?)

Remember when our moms told us that if we crossed our eyes, they would stay that way? Perhaps I was the only gullible five-year-old, but a small part of me was concerned. Sure, I had never seen people with permanent cross-eyes. I have never seen sad documentaries of people who had crossed their eyes against their mother’s advice, and it became permanent.

Yet it was a defective deterrent. We might still cross our eyes, but never for very long. Just in case…

But now that I am an adult, it is an ineffective deterrent. I now realize that my eyes won’t stay that way. In order for punishment to be effective, we must be convinced it will happen. (Part of the reason that punishment in society remains a generally ineffective deterrent is that criminals always presume they will not get caught. They don’t believe it will be imposed, either.)

How can hell compensate a victim? The people that suffered from the effects of immoral acts would either

a) be in Heaven; or
b) be in Hell.

Is it claimed that victims in Heaven are slowing improving their position, when those who harmed them are suffering? Or are victims in hell also lessening their suffering while the criminal is suffering more?

And no, God cannot be “compensated” by making people suffer. That would make God wanting. Less than perfect. Incomplete. In need of something. (And it makes a curious kind of victim that can ONLY be compensated through inflicting pain on others.)

That leaves us with punishment. A penalty imposed for doing something wrong.

What did we do wrong? Was it the fact we sin? Or that we did not believe correctly?

As to sinning—we have no option there. All humans sin. God is punishing us for being human. Is it appropriate to punish us for something we have no choice over? None of us can “choose” to be non-human. We cannot discard our humanity.

If God is going to make us roast in fire…er…excuse, me, stomp on our face for being Human, there is not much I can do about it. Makes Jesus’ coming a bit of a waste, frankly. How did his dying on the cross make some people non-human?

Bottom line-we will be punished for not believing correctly. This all fits together nicely with Romans 10:9—believe: you go to heaven. Don’t: you go to hell.

Apparently, though, belief after death doesn’t count. Being confronted with real evidence, with physical confirmation does not qualify. The only belief that counts is that which is specifically performed without evidence.

The only way I get to keep my face intact is to believe without evidence. If believing with evidence is sufficient, then death would not be necessary as a cut-off.

I am to be punished eternally because God deliberately did not give me evidence. O.K. Sucks to be me, but if that is the way it is, so be it. Just don’t try and sell the idea that God loves me, or is moved with compassion or is even remotely considerate toward me. At best, he is gleefully looking forward to the day to inflict tremendous pain on me (and others) and is only holding off in some sort of perverse sense of anticipation.

OR, is it more possible that since the Bible is made up of conflicting authors, we have conflicting pictures of this God. Some authors desired to focus on a loving, benevolent, forgiving God. Some authors focused on a God imposing some sort of “ultimate justice.” When the two concepts were placed together in an anthology, we end up with a creepy dual-personality type God that makes a hard right turn upon human death.

God Chose A Very Poor Medium To Reveal Himself!

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In a previous blog entry, here, I asked why so many professed Christians disagree with each other when interpreting the Bible.

As a former Christian I had difficulty with why there were so many different ways that professed Christians interpreted the Bible. I could never answer that question. I just put it on the backburner of things I didn't know, and I proceeded to try to come up with what I considered the correct interpretations, because that's all I could do.

What I now believe is that history is not a reliable "point of contact" for God to speak with man, assuming God exists. Anyone who studies the philosophy of history knows that history (and historical writings) should be interpreted in light of the historian's present perspective. Why? Because that's all we can do...we cannot do otherwise. So women gain rights in Christian countries and Biblical historians (theologians?) interpret the Bible to say what they have come to believe on other grounds, and so forth, hell being another doctrine. Besides, practically any event in history can be rationally denied, even if that event actually occurred! And this goes for non-miraculous history, so how much more does it apply to purported miraculous claims in history? If God chose to reveal himself in history, then he chose a very poor medium to do so.

The Debate Video Will be Available in a Few Weeks.

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Just a quick note. The debate video between Mr. Wood of Answering Infidels and I will be aired on The Infidel Guy Show after it's produced, in a few weeks.

Journal Article Researching Deconversion

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A friend pointed me to a journal article by Heinz Streib studying deconversion experiences:

"The Variety of Deconversion Experiences - Contours of a Concept in Respect to Empirical Research" (co-author: Keller, Barbara), in: Archive for the Psychology of Religion / Archiv für Religionspsychologie 26: 181-200 (2004) (.pdf)

My comments will be placed below the fold.

The author reflects the lack of research done on deconversions, and I like his outline for clarifying the concept itself:
It may however be important for understanding the process of deconversion to attend to the loss of specific religious experiences which deconverts talk about in their interviews. The loss of religious experiences, or the attraction to a new kind of religious experience, may be an element of deconversion which occurs as early in the deconversion process and are as important for this process as intellectual doubt and denial or moral criticism.

Thus we may add this to our list of elements in our conceptualization of deconversion.

We conclude the interindividual commonalities of deconversion with an extended list of definition elements.

Deconversion consists in:

1. Loss of specific religious experiences (Experiential Dimension); this means the loss of finding meaning and purpose in life; the loss of the experience of God; of trust and of fear;
2. Intellectual doubt, denial or disagreement with specific beliefs (Ideological Dimension); heresy (sensu Berger) is an element of deconversion;
3. Moral criticism (Ritualistic Dimension) which means a rejection of specific prescriptions and/or the application of a new level of moral judgement;
4. Emotional suffering (Consequential Dimension); this can consist in a loss of embeddedness/social support/sense of stability and safety;
5. Disaffiliation from the community which can consist of a retreat from participation in meetings or from observance of religious practices; finally, the termination of membership which eventually follows.

These interindividual commonalities of deconversion can be used to structure empirical research, and as criteria of what characterizes biographical accounts as deconversion stories.
I just find #1 rather problematic if it is not taken as an "interindividual commonality" - something which may not be shared coequally amongst deconvert groups. After all, many of us would argue that the phrase, "God has purpose for my life" is meaningless and inspired much confusion as a believer, and that self-ownership follows from, and is necessary for, one to evaluate the value/meaning/purpose of ones own life.

The implicit association here is between deconversion and ultimate loss, rather than temporary transition, in values and purposes. That is fallacious. All of us go through changes in the way we view our purposes and meaning whether we apostasize, remain Christian, or never become one. Life and its experiences bring us new perspectives, and it is rare for people to exist in an existential vacuum.

Christian Presuppositionalism - A General Response

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I'm sure most of our readers are familiar with the style of apologetics known as Christian Presuppositionalism (CPS). In general, it argues against all other worldviews via reductio, or internal critique. One of the favorite sorts of positive arguments that CPS employ are the Transcendental Arguments for God's Existence (TAG) [also see here]. These all run along the same lines (If X, then God):
i) God is a precondition for X
ii) X exists
iii) Therefore, God exists
(X = logic, uniformity of nature, induction, morality, mathematical truths, universals...)
My student freethought group, AAFSA at UF, enjoys a hell of a faculty advisor -- a philosopher who specializes in religion and metaphysics. Prof. D. Gene Witmer (from Rutgers Phil Dept.!) is a pretty well-known guy in the world of physicalism (so far as I can tell from his numerous citations in academic works on the subject), and he teaches a phil of religion course every year, PHI 3700.

I attended a PhilSoc meeting in March where Prof. Witmer discussed the problem of evil, after which I asked him how he would respond to Van Tillian Presuppositionalists (from C. Van Til) on the PoE. He seemed taken aback, and had no idea what in the hell I was talking about. I later came to find out that this is because the CPS ideas are basically absent from awareness in academic circles (at least at secular universities). Following this, we exchanged quite a few emails discussing CPS, and I suppose I piqued his interest into the arguments and methods employed by CPS's.

On Sept. 26, I asked Prof. Witmer if he would talk to our group, and we discussed possible topics a bit before he decided to talk about CPS at our meeting 9. I have now made the abstract of the talk, and the full-text (.pdf) of his presentation available online. Please download and feel free to comment on his arguments and major points. I especially enjoyed his presentation of a "conditional PoE", wherein he argues that either there are moral facts or there aren't, but either way, the PoE shows that God does not exist.

Download the .pdf HERE.

Which is it? You Pick!

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Ed Babinski e-mailed me with a list of some interesting books published in the evangelical community, listed below. I have some of these books. But let me pose a question here. Either God was not clear in his revelation about these issues, or the Holy Spirit isn't doing his job in illuminating the truth of the Bible, or God doesn't care what Christians believe. If God doesn't care, then he's also partly to blame for the wars and inquisitions and heresy trials of the Christian past, which claimed many lives. You pick. Which is it? [This doesn't even begin to address the issues that separate different branches of Christianity].

In the 1980s two Evangelical Christian publishing houses began publishing a series that featured debates between theologians (who remained in disagreement following such debates). InterVarsity Press published...

Two Views of Hell: A Biblical and Theological Dialog
What About Those Who Have Never Heard? Three Views on the Destiny of the Unevangelized
In Search of the Soul: Four Views of the Mind-Body Problem
Divine Foreknowledge: Four Views
Four Views on Divine sovereignty and Human Freedom
Four Christian Views of Economics
Four Theologians Debate the Major Millennial Views
The Meaning of the Millennium: Four Views
God & Time: Four Views
Science & Christianity: Four Views
Psychology & Christianity: Four Views
Women in Ministry: Four Views
Divorce and Remarriage: Four Christian Views
Theologians and Philosophers Examine Four Approaches to War

While Zondervan Press, part of their Counterpoints Series, published...

Two Views on Women in Ministry
How Jewish Is Christianity? Two Views on the Messianic Movement
Three Views on the Rapture
Three Views on the Millennium and Beyond
Three Views on Creation and Evolution
Three Views on Eastern Orthodoxy and Evangelicalism
Remarriage After Divorce in Today's Church: Three Views
Are Miraculous Gifts for Today: Four Views
Show Them No Mercy: Four Views on God and Canaanite Genocide
Understanding Four Views on Baptism
Who Runs the Church? Four Views on Church Government
Four Views on Salvation in a Pluralistic World
Four Views on the Book of Revelation
Four Views on Eternal Security
Four Views on Hell
Evaluating the Church Growth Movement: Five Views
Five Views of Law and Gospel
Five Views on Sanctification
Five Views on Apologetics
Exploring the Worship Spectrum: Six Views

Neither counterpoint series, above, is at an end.

How To Write a Book Review

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FYI: I have read several reviews of my book now. Most all of them aren't written very well at all. Two of them proceeded to argue with it chapter by chapter. A couple others went hodgepodge through it, pointing out things they liked and didn't like. But good reviews will first summarize the book, tell what the author is attempting to do, tell who would benefit the most from reading the book, compare it to other books he's seen on the same topic, and offer a generalized statement about how effective his book is in attaining his stated goals. Then at that point the reviewer can speak about some specifics in the book as examples that support his generalized statement by arguing with them or supporting them. This is High School stuff here.

Will God Answer This Prayer?

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My de-conversion from Christianity is fairly recent and has been difficult for my family. My father is convinced that the reason I am no longer a Christian is that I have never personally experienced God. My Dad is probably right. If I had a sense that God was communicating with me, even if it were to say no to my every request, I never would have questioned the truth of Christianity. This weekend my father and my non-Christian brother Jon are visiting. My father has proposed that this weekend, we all get together and pray that God give us a manifestation of himself. I have agreed to do this. My case against Christianity is inferential and I don’t hold to it with certainty. A manifestation such that occurred to Doubting Thomas would certainly have a large effect upon my assessment.

If you are a Christian that believes that God answers prayer, feel free to pray that God answers my Dad’s prayers. My Dad believes that God answers prayer and is actively performing miracles even today. However, I do fear the disappointment that my Dad will experience if he goes through with this. Of course, the disappointment could eventually be good for him. I’ll let you know how it goes after this weekend.

My Debate on the Problem of Evil

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I just got back into town and it's after my bedtime on Sunday night, so I'm going to bed now. I realized after I announced this Blog as a place to comment and to ask questions about the debate, that several people in attendence (just over 100) couldn't comment because we don't allow anonymous comments here at DC. I've disabled that function to allow anyone who was at the debate to do so, but please use your real name.

I personally thought it went well. David Wood and his wife are a kind and winsome couple...a joy to know! I'll write more tomorrow. David hired a professional video company to record the event. We'll have to wait till they've produced the video, and I don't know yet what David wants to do with it. A transcript of the debate is being prepared too, but we'll have to wait for that too. I'll let others judge how well we each did, but I'll tell you what my wife said, and I quote: "the only people who will think David won the debate are those who are blinded by their faith, and/or people who cannot deal with arguments." Of course, she's not entirely objective and neither am I. So, like I said, I'll let others decide for themselves, and I'll tell more about our weekend later.

A big thanks goes out to several people who commented on earlier drafts of my opening statement, including Andrea Weisberger, Richard Carrier, Jeffrey Jay Lowder, Ed Babinski, exapologist, Joe Holman, and Daniel Morgan (who supplied my powerpoint presentation with a few pictures).

Comments on the Wood-Loftus Debate on Evil

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I'm going to announce during Saturday's debate with David Wood on the problem of evil that if anyone wants to comment on it they can do so here. While I don't know if anyone will, this space is still being made available in advance of what I will announce. I'll take a look at any comments when I get back.

A Little Levity

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Top Ten Reasons Religion is Like Pornography
10. It has been practiced for all of human history, in all cultures
9. It exploits perfectly natural, even commendable, impulses
8. Its virtues are debatable, its proponents fanatical
7. People love it, but can't give a rational reason for it
6. Objectifies and degrades women even when it worships them
5. You want to wash up after shaking hands with any of its leaders
4. The costumes are outrageous, the performances silly, the plots unbelievable
3. There's nothing wrong with enjoying it, but it's nothing to be proud of, either
2. It is not a sound basis for public policy, government, or international relations
1. Its stars are totally fake
(HT: PZ)

The Follies of Faith (part I of II)

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Jesus said, “If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.” (Matthew 17:20)

You know, I agree with Jesus when he says faith is powerful. He’s right. Faith is a very powerful thing, much more powerful than we stop to realize. The Bible is replete with examples of this. Take, for instance, the book of Hebrews as it gives us an extensive list of other great works of faith…

“32. And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33. Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions. 34. Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36. And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37. They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38. (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: “ (Hebrews 11:32-39)

Faith is an incredible thing, but I don’t think this list is fair. It mentions only positive things from a Judeo-Christian standpoint wrought by faith. I think, to be fair, we need to focus on some of the many negative things faith has been primarily responsible for…

By faith, radical Muslims fly planes into buildings, killing thousands. By faith, suicide bombers explode themselves on sidewalks full of people and on school buses full of children. By faith, large groups senselessly riot over the publishing of stupid Muhammed cartoons and call for the life of the artists that produced them. By faith, Jewish and Arab teens throw rocks at each other, stab each other, and get together in mobs to beat their enemies to death with makeshift blunt objects, in the absence of a handy gun or sword. By faith, dedicated Muslim families place their own babies and young children in front of U.S. tanks as they roll through town, trying to clear out terrorist cells. By faith, reporter Nick Berg had his head sawed off by extremist Muslims while videotape rolled and caught his silenced screams and gasps for breath as he died. His severed head was placed upon his body. By faith, Muslims, Jews, and Christians gather in large numbers, to assemble at the Wailing Wall, nodding and praying, rocking back and forth, in adoration of a god who sits by and lets the never-ending holy land dispute go unresolved, allowing the respective religions to remain bitter enemies for centuries, even amidst the desperate cries of some of their own representatives for the senseless violence to stop. By faith, a Muslim man is moved to throw acid in his sister’s face, grossly disfiguring her, because she was raped and is no longer a virgin. By faith, a Somalian Muslim man brings his young daughter to the village elders so she can undergo cliterodectomy before she reaches sexual maturity to help ensure that she will never be tempted to know sexual pleasure, and therefore, be tempted to cheat on her future husband. By faith, a number of Christians on December 31 of 1999 quit their jobs, loaded up their cars with toilet paper, bottled water, canned goods, and bibles, in fear of all the computer systems crashing because of Y2k. By faith, some preachers behind this panic told their congregations that this would be the beginning of the “antichrist” and his reign of terror, as he reset all computers and began to takeover everything, thus, beginning the tribulation period. By faith, Christians have awaited the return of Christ for centuries, gathering outside of their houses on rooftops, selling their possessions, waiting to be raptured up to heaven. By faith, U.S. courts refused charters to atheist organizations who publicly declared their intentions to speak out against Jesus and his church. By faith, green wood was used to fuel the fires of stake burnings to ensure that the impenitent heretic burned slower and suffered longer before expiring. By faith, a working class, divorced mother of two breaks her arm at a local Pentecostal assembly, after a crowd of fellow idiots spin her around by her arms to get rid of demons, but drop her accidentally. By faith, a number of charismatic preachers end up in the obituaries due to snake bites. By faith, a woman is encouraged to leave her husband and break up her marriage as a preacher tells her she had no right to get remarried. By faith, another woman in the same situation is caused to worry endlessly whether or not God will forgive her for staying with a man after she has been divorced and remarried with questionable scriptural authority. By faith, monks, priests, and Catholic church officials are prevented from marrying or enjoying any conjugal benefits. By faith, a number of young baptized men go to their fundamentalist fathers and ask what can be done to keep from being overcome with the temptation to masturbate, since it is a temptation they cannot escape from. By faith, dedicated single men entering the ministry, after finding that they are unable to fight off their own lusts, decide that if they are not married by a certain point in time, would consider castrating themselves (I have actually seen students say they would do this!). By faith, a Church of Christ Scientist family refuses to medicate their children when they are sick, allowing the children to die. By faith, a strict father charges into his son’s room and smacks him in the face, and tells him to, “Shape up and be a man!”, and “Be the man God wants you to be!”, destroying his child’s respect for him, and his religion.

How long can this list be? Much longer than it is, that we know. Faith is the motivating factor in an untold number of negative things. What little good can come of it is either delusional, rare, questionable, or superfluous at best. But the list I made a theist could respond to. I know how I would have responded to these points as a minister. I could wax quite eloquent doing so, arguing that bible faith, properly applied, is good and spiritually profitable. But for every explanation I would give, an entire group of believers would have their own explanations for what they believe is spiritually valuable.

For starters, I’d have pointed out that God wants us all to work and not futilely wait for the coming of Christ (2 Thessalonians 3:10-14), that God does not encourage berating children, nor how this father was too hard on his son, “fathers provoke not your children to wrath.” (Ephesians 6:4). I’d have said that medicine should be used per the principle of I Timothy 5:23, and on and on I could go, justifying my version of Christianity. But for every bone of contention that my faith, "correctly applied," would produce good fruits, another religious leader, a believer in some other sect or faith, will have a different take on things. A radical Muslim will defend his exhaustive methods to rout his enemies whom he thinks have taken his land, and might go so far as to include a justification for throwing acid in the face a woman who lost her virginity before marriage in a rape. A believer in a number of tribal faiths will defend the removal of the clitoris as sacred tradition, similar to circumcision. Such a leader might even point to alleged reduced infidelity rates among their women, or point out that taking pleasure away that is never known to a person is not missed or cruel. A snake-handling pastor will defend their faith based on Mark 16:9-11. A conventional dispute with the pastor will not change his views on the scriptures, and it will be just another religious division in an already divided religious world. No one will have solved anything by arguing, and faith will still be the root cause of all of these evils, justified or unjustified. This makes faith a bad thing, a thing so easily abused and capable of being misdirected that the negative applications of it far outweigh any good that can come from it.

Of course, faith goes beyond mere dogma, beyond some bland rule book. Religious faith, though irrational, is personal and captivating, seemingly grafted deeply into the heart of the faithful. It makes man capable of what he otherwise wouldn’t be capable of, and this is why it so very often results in folly. (JH)

I'm Headed to My Alma Mater to See Paul Copan

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The last time I visited Lincoln Christian Seminary, in Lincoln, Illinois, was nearly 10 years ago to hear Dr. Craig give the James D. Strauss lecture series. This lecture series sprang out of a student apologetical group called the Chi Lambda Fellowship, of which I was the vice-President and founding editor (of the now defunct) student journal called A Journal For Christian Studies (first issue Mar 1982). It was at Lincoln that Dr. James Sennett and I were student/friends.

Dr. Paul Copan is doing the lectureship this week, and I'm specifically interested in his lectures titled: "The Perplexing Problem of Evil," and "Divine Hiddenness and the Problem of Hell." But I'm more interested in meeting him, since he asked if I could come. Paul is very interested in my upcoming debate with David Wood of Answering Infidels this weekend, and will probably write up some comments about it (although he said five books of his are coming out this year, so he's really busy).

Paul and I have a lot in common and we've struck up an internet friendship this year. He entered Trinity Evangelical Divinity School the Fall of the same year I graduated in June 1985. We both studied under Dr. Craig. We both studied at Marquette University. Paul graduated but I did not. I dropped out of Marquette primarily because my Dad had just learned he had cancer and I wanted to spend some time with him for his remaining days, so I took a church back home to be with him. I thought I'd finish school later....but I never did.

There are professors and administrators at Lincoln who know I'm an atheist. The present President was a good friend of mine while we were both students there. How will I be received? The strange thing is that I feel like the same person I was when I attended there. I just don't believe the same things anymore. To me it's like rooting for the Colts when everyone else is rooting for the Steelers, and that's it. No big deal. But to them, and to Christians on the internet, my beliefs threaten them and are dangerous. I miss these people. We're all good people. We'll see.

Gareth McCaughan: "Why I Am No Longer A Christian."

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Here's his deconversion story, here are some more of his essays, and this is who he is

Vic Reppert pointed this out.

Should Women Wear Hats in Church?

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When I was a Christian, I thought that I should look to the Bible for insight and guidance regarding human nature and ultimate truth. In fact, since the book was authored by the author of human nature, it could give surprisingly clear insights into people’s motives and feelings. I had been taught that the seeds of the doctrine of natural law were found in the Bible and as a result had resulted in the best theory of morality available.

Now some of the writings were not meant to convey guidance for all times. For example, regulations regarding the temple only had to be followed when there was a temple. However, some to the teachings are meant to be timeless. I had been taught that appeals to human nature were examples of truths that should be regarded as intended for Christians today.

One example of the early appeal to natural law is found in Romans 1. Paul states that there are certain moral facts that God has made known to all mankind. However, as a result of man’s failure to glorify God, our thinking became darkened. A consequence of our disobedience is trading natural desires for unnatural desires. In essence, Paul is appealing to human nature as a clue to morality. Based upon this verse my church opposes gay marriage regardless of the popularity of the position within the culture at large.

However, it was clear to me that my church did not take all of the natural law arguments made by the Apostle Paul equally seriously. Consider 1 Corinthians 11:

3)Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4) Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5) And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. 6) If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7) A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8) For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9) neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10) For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.

11) In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12) For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. 13) Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14) Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15) but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering.


Notice that Paul is appealing to man and woman’s creation to support his point. If Paul’s argument was ever valid, then it is valid now. Paul is appealing to the nature of humanity as guide to how we should behave. It is clear that Paul thinks women should cover their heads while praying. However, in my church women are not expected to wear hats. However, Paul’s conclusion is guided by the insight provided by the Holy Spirit, why should this passage be ignored?

This may seem like a trivial example, but when this passage was brought to my attention it weighed on me when I was a Christian. I was not about to impose on my wife that she needed to wear a hat. I thought require head covering seemed silly. It was evidence that I didn’t act like I believed the Bible was inspired, despite what I thought and proclaimed. My pastor had preached on this verse had given reasons other people didn’t think it applied today. However, he acknowledged that the reasons weren’t convincing. He just left it at that.

It is an open secret of many “Bible Believing” churches that only a small percentage of their members study the Bible with any degree of interest (see Dallas Willard in “Hearing God”). In retrospect, it seems that actually reading the Bible forces the Christian to deal with the division they have placed in their own minds. It is easier to proclaim belief and ignore the teaching of the Bible when you don’t actually read the Bible.

Only At Ionian!

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At John’s request, I am making a brief reminder post about my discussion board, Ionian Spirit.

  • www.ionianspirit.net


  • I know there are lots of forums out there, particularly freethought forums to choose from. But if you haven’t visited, please stop in and see the difference between our board, and some others out there.

    When I created Ionian, I was thinking of not just a place for every non-fundamentalist to visit and enjoy enlightening exchanges, but a forum where people can just be themselves and not be obligated to post a certain kind of topic or be forced to stay with the group interest. That tendency is a killjoy on many boards. At Ionian, people are not tied down to supporting a certain agenda.

    As I put it in my first book, Laws for Living, “Bad friends are interest-dependent friends.” If everyone’s interests and views must always align, that’s when the fighting starts. Our members pride themselves on being able to enjoy what they have in common without actually agreeing on everything.

    Of course, all of our active members agree that fundyism is wrong and dangerous, but our members and their views tend to vary. We have the usual blend of atheists and agnostics, several mystics, one pagan, and even a few Christians. Anyone is welcome who can appreciate common ground and the commerce of ideas—provided, of course, they realize that sometimes we step on each other’s toes! Any idea or view you express is fair game to receive criticism or praise! Such is life!

    The Ionians were the forerunners of the ancient Greeks. They were characterized by a great love for science, open criticism of ideas, and freedom of expression, and we are carrying on that tradition in the cyber world today.

    Our board includes forums on…philosophy discussions, debate and biblical criticism, poetry and literature, the sciences, the exposure of the pseudo-sciences, news and politics, media reviews, religious history, comedy, a rants and raves section, an entire sub-forum dedicated to the problem of evil, a sensuality/mature issues forum, and a private lounge for higher ranking members.

    If you care to stop by and join in on the Ionian tradition, please feel free to do so!

    (JH)

    The Differences Between My Book and Martin's Book

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    Some people have wondered what the difference is between Michael Martin’s The Case Against Christianity and my book on Why I Rejected Christianity. Let me offer what I think are some differences.


    1) My book reveals a personal account of both my conversion and my deconversion, which explains the whole process of both coming and leaving the faith, whereas Martin does not. A personal story which shares the kinds of things that caused one to accept the faith and then to leave the faith produces a level of understanding for the whole process itself. It offers a reasonable understanding how this process happened and how it could possibly happen to other Christians.

    2) Because Martin does not show evidence he was ever an insider to Christianity, some of his arguments may not resonate with the Christian reader, whereas I have a better understanding of what questions a Christian needs to have answered.

    3) My book covers issues that Martin’s book leaves out. He leaves out a discussion of the existence of God, the problem of religious diversity, the problem of unanswered prayer, the relationship of science and the Bible, the nature of the Bible, the problem of the historian in assessing the claims of the Bible, the self-authenticating witness of the Holy Spirit, the Devil, hell, the problem of evil, and he only barely touches the philosophical problem of miracles. Granted he deals extensively with some of these issues in his other books, especially his book Atheism: A Justification. But the questions that I write about are the most important ones for the evangelical Christian. And these issues can all (or nearly all) be found in just one book.

    4) Martin is a scholar and he’s writing to other scholars, and as such the topics he deals with are probably better argued than by me in my book, especially since the level of writing I'm doing is for the informed college student. But that means with my book Martin’s arguments and those of other scholars are made accessible to a much wider audience, and I refer my readers to his book several times, along with other scholarly books on those same issues.

    5) Finally I end my book describing the process of why I finally became an atheist and what it’s like to live life without God, which isn’t found in Martin’s book. Again, I reveal the whole story, from start to finish about my journey from a Christian to an atheist along with a nearly comprehensive cumulative set of powerful arguments that persuaded me to change. It's a complete story.

    I hope this explains the differences without anyone concluding that mine is a better book. Both books serve their purpose at their respective levels, and mine would be worse off had Martin not written his book at all. These are the differences I see, that’s all.