An Update On What I've Been Doing Lately

For people wondering why I haven't participated much in some of the discussions here at DC, or that when I do, I seem out of it, or a bit cranky, I'd like to explain what I've been doing lately.

Lately I've been working on the copy edits of my book, Why I Became an Atheist. I know I'm the author and so you’ll want to take my recommendation with a grain of salt, but I dare say with Eddie Tabash that this book is the "finest refutation of Christianity," evangelical Christianity, in print. It helped to change Andrew Atkinson's mind, who was well-read and planning on entering Norman Geisler's Seminary. It is also being recommended by Norman Geisler, who said my book "is a thoughtful and intellectually challenging work, presenting arguments that every honest theist and Christian should face." It’s being recommended by James F. Sennett, who said it is "a wake up call to the church." And it is being recommended by many skeptics, like Daniel C. Dennett, Christopher Hitchens, Paul Kurtz, Robert M. Price, Richard Carrier, Dan Barker and David Mills. In addition to these recommendations of my self-published book, Hector Avalos, Michael Shermer, John Beversluis, Andrea Weisberger, and Charles Echelbarger will be taking a look at the Prometheus Books galleys for a blurb to be placed with the others on the back cover, and inside pages of the book. The Prometheus Books edition is a major revision of my former book. I'm completely satisfied with it. It's sure to make an impact.

So I'm putting my all into what I'm doing. I want to make it the best damn counter-apologetics book, bar none. Even if I don't achieve that goal, it's still a worthy goal.

Then I'm also in the beginning stages of putting together a "Contra-Christian Reader" for Prometheus Books, to come out on the heels of my first book. A rough draft of the first chapter can be found here.

I’m also planning on turning my self-published book into a companion volume with the best from Debunking Christianity, decisions and permissions will be forthcoming.

In the midst of this I'm in a financial crisis and looking for ways to earn some more money. This economy is bad, very bad, for my business where I live, and rather than spend extra time drumming up more business I've spent too much time Blogging and writing. I think I may be in for another career change. In the meantime I'd appreciate any donations you might be able to give me during this time. I have a hard time asking for help, so when I do, it’s dire.

While I'm pre-occupied with these things rest assured that everything at DC is under control. Your administrators are Lee Randolph, Joe Holman, Harry McCall, Evan, and Ed Babinski. They help me with moderating comments to keep the discussions going fluently. I appreciate all of them and their keen insights as they have the chance. They make DC the best place to discuss the issues that divide us, in my opinion. To read about our contributors here at DC, see this link.

Another Person Walks Away From Christianity!

Not long ago I received the following email from Ed Owens, who lives in Missouri and attends a Church of Christ there with his wife, who still believes. Here’s what he said:

I'm a 50 year old man from Missouri who preached for almost 30 years for the Church of Christ. Several months ago I read Joe Holman’s article at minister turns atheist and began my study of why he would do such a thing. I am now convinced by my own studies of the absurdity of the book called the Bible. My family on both sides are all members of the church and are now giving me pure hell about it. I'm seeing a psychologist at the request of all the family. They seem to think she will reconvert me, I guess. That's their knee-jerk response; I must be coo coo or something like that.

In another email he added:

I was raised in a Church of Christ family and was baptized at the age of 19 by my sibling brother who is an Evangelist for the Church of Christ. We are the one cup one loaf no Sunday School group. My wife also has the same roots in the Church and still does. My brother and I married sisters. He got the younger and I got the older. He is eight years older than me. My wife is seven years and a few months older than I am. She was married before to the same guy twice while away from the church. When she returned and confessed her unfaithfulness to the church and asked God's forgiveness she was reinstated as a member in good standing.

I began preaching in 1978 at the tender age of 20 and gave it all fervor and conviction that I could muster. My Dad was a preacher for the CofC and an Elder for many years so you could say I was following in his steps as was two of my siblings besides me.

I came across Joe Holman's article on the internet entitled “minister turns atheist” and I couldn't help but wonder what would posses someone who was once a minister to turn to atheism. To make a long story short I studied his arguments and many other atheist arguments and found the Scriptures severely lacking in credibility and accuracy. I've been in touch with Joe and have corresponded quite often in the past few months.

I left the church and had it announced last Wednesday evening of my intentions. It came as quite a shock to some but not to all. My poor wife came unhinged when she began to discover my intentions. She has settled down somewhat in the past week. I told her I would attend with her on Sundays if she wanted and of course she does. How long that will last I have no idea. It is very difficult to set through a service and listen to a message that is full of error and conjecture and not be tempted to jump up and declare, "It is a bunch of hooey!" You know what hooey is, don't you? I thought so. DUNG! MANURE! KA-KA!

When the de-conversion started I was devastated!!! I felt like I had been lied to all my life. I was raised to believe the scriptures were without error and had no contradictions whatsoever. When I took the blinders off and began to see the multitude of errors and contradictions I became angry and tried to point them out to my Evangelist brother, who by the way had been my mentor all my life, and how he might see the truth of all this. You can imagine the result. He began to tell me how deluded I was and not to read that junk, as he called it, it would just confuse me and warp my mind. I tried time after time to illustrate the errors to him but he would not hear of it. He and I no longer speak to each other. He's refused to answer my email because he can't control the situation by his overpowering personality and make me shut up!

I've tried subtly to show others the errors and to no avail. I've even been told to quit trying to proselyte members. Any advice you can give me I sure would appreciate it!!! My wife belittles me at every turn claiming that I'm headed for Hell if I don't change and repent. My brother likewise gives me fits. He is an Evangelist for the church and at one time my dearest and closest friend, past tense!

I told him that until he put his foot down they wouldn’t leave him alone, so he composed the following letter and read it after last Wednesday's services:

It has come to my attention that some folks believe I have lost my mind. I believe the term was mentally ill. Let me assure you each and everyone that is not the case.

I stand before you this evening to set the record straight. I AM NOT MENTALLY ILL.

I am quite sane, I assure you. If this does not persuade you then you may call my analyst, who I have been seeing at the request of family and friends, and will verify what I have just said. I have given written legal permission to divulge my mental state.

People sincerely disagree on a host of issues, from who should be the next President, to which diet is best for losing weight. No one ever thinks to say that people who disagree about such issues is mentally ill. So why should that be the case here? Many of us have decided to walk away from the Christian faith, including former Church of Christ preachers Farrell Till, Joe Holman and John W. Loftus. I no longer believe for the same reasons you don't accept Islam or Mormonism, and no one considers those who don't believe them to be mentally ill for doing so.

Now, that having been said, I wish to make some things crystal clear so that not a single person misunderstands why I am up here.

1. I am no longer a member of the church.

2. I do NOT need reconverting PLEASE RESIST THE TEMPTATION TO TRY!

3. I will not debate, verbally converse, or argue with ANYONE on the issues surrounding my decision to leave the church.

4. If you feel so disposed to chastise me, I reserve the right to respond in kind. When you do, realize that you are only reinforcing my decision by not showing that you care for me as a person.

5. I still love each and every one of you irregardless of your feelings toward me. I really do.

6. I may attend services from time to time out of respect, but I will be attending less and less, since it would be no different for you if you were asked to attend a Jewish service, which you don't believe. I admire your convictions even if I do not share in them.

7. I have been accused of trying to de-convert members with emails. I submit material for consideration by email and when I am told to stop, I DO!

In conclusion, I understand your concern for my spiritual well being. You have voiced it and I have heard. Now, please stop. I am assuming full responsibility for my own actions from this point forward.

You will not appreciate my decision I am sure, but you are going to have to learn to accept it because I am confident upon the ground I stand.

Then the shit hit the fan. Here’s what he wrote me last night afterwards:

I read the letter to the congregation after services had concluded and it was instant fireworks! My brother had to put in his two cents worth.

He claimed the analyst was my own decision, which was a lie, and then shouted that I was dis-fellowshipped. I thought that was really strange since I had just announced my own leaving of the faith. I asked if I was banned from the church assemblies and he said no, there was no need for me to attend ‘cause I would just be a hypocrite by doing so. I should have called him on the carpet right in front of everyone about not following scriptural process of dis-fellowship, but I didn't, I just walked out.

I know I did the right thing but now my wife has no intention of attending that congregation any longer. She says she will attend where my daughter goes.

Thanks again for your support.

Why in the hell do Christians have to make it so hard on us when we no longer believe? I’m proud of Ed. He did what was necessary and right. He's one of our unsung heroes. And I’m also proud of his wife for loving Ed enough to leave that church over it.

He's reading this. Any encouragement or helpful advice would be appreciated.

Announcing Joe E. Holman's Book, Project Bible Truth.

Another DC member wrote a great book, Project Bible Truth.

I have been able to read through it prior to publication. It's an excellent book written by a master writer. It contains the most comprehensive deconversion story I've ever read. A must have book. Go to the link and you can preview it.

The Firepower of Debunking Christianity.

I just want to thank the team members and commenters who make DC what it is. There is some real firepower at DC in our common goal. Here we are in alphabetical order:

Edward T. Babinski has edited a book, written chapters for others and is somewhat of an expert in the issues pertaining to creationism and evolution. He seems to have his hands everywhere, a sort of hub for people who leave the fold. He first encouraged me, and I'll always be thankful, I think. ;-)

Dr. Hector Avalos, a Biblical scholar of the New Atheism.

Jason Long has a Ph.D. in Pharmacology and wrote two books, Biblical Nonsense, and The Religious Condition.

Joe E. Holman was a seminary trained minister who is writing a book describing his deconversion and highlighting the many problems there are for the Christian faith. I just read a rough draft of his deconversion story in his book and it's the most comprehensive and complete one I've ever read. Plus he teaches creative writing and this is reflected in his book. He maintains a website and an online forum.

John W. Loftus, me, *ahem* I have the near equivalent of a Ph.D. in the Philosophy of Religion, have taught apologetics at a Bible College, and I too wrote a book.

Lee Randolph, is my right hand man in many ways. He's a polymath and dabbles in Comparative Religions, ancient Near Eastern and Mediterranean history and Mythology, Argument Analysis, Informal Logic, Cognitive Science, Philosophy, Game Theory and Information Technology. He has a great deal to share, and he helps maintain this blog.

Marlene Winell has a Ph.D. in psychology and specializes in helping people go through the process of deconverting. She wrote a book and she conducts seminars for people who leave the Christian faith.

Valerie Tarico has a Ph.D. in psychology and also wrote a book. Her specialty lies in the area of the psychology of beliefs, how we get them, and why the evangelical faith is so hard to shake.

That’s a pretty well-rounded group.

I am very pleased they have come on board and I greatly value their contributions. Of course, I wish some would contribute more often, but whenever I have a question, or whenever there is a person whom they can deal with better than me, I hook them up.

There are others who comment here, both skeptic and Christian, and I thank them all. Christians who visit here help to sharpen us, and I thank them for this. Skeptics who visit here do the same, and add to our combined knowledge.

I personally think this is a great place to discuss the ideas that separate us. I look forward every day to see what people have said. My aim is to make this a friendly place to debate, and I think that goal is being achieved. I also want DC to be a place where people who struggle with their faith can come to ask questions and learn. There are many such people in the church who dare not express themselves. At DC they can. If the church was more open to their questions they wouldn't have to visit DC to express them, and you all know the answers that we offer.


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Past Contributors at DC Include:

Andrew Atkinson

Aaron M Rossetti

Bart Willruth

Bill Ross

Brother Crow

Craig Duckett

DagoodS

Dan Barker

Dennis Diehl

Evan

exapologist

exbeliever

Former Fundy

Joseph

Ken Daniels

Matthew J. Green

Robert Bumbalough

S Burgener

Shygetz

Theresa Frasch

Troy Waller

Eddie Tabash Recommends My Book!

Today I went to the Grand Opening of the new Center for Inquiry Indiana, where Paul Kurtz, Toni Van Pelt, Joe Nicholl and Eddie Tabash were the main speakers. Tabash spoke on the topic, “The Threat of the Religious Right to Our Modern Freedoms,” and it was very motivating for me.

Eddie was talking to some people before he spoke and I went up to listen in and to introduce myself. He read my name tag before I could do so. Then he asked me, "did you write the book against Christianity," and I nodded. Then he turned to the people he was talking to and said, “John’s book is the finest refutation of Christianity I have read. I use it in my debates.” Then turning back to me he said, “I bought twelve copies to give away.” As the author of the book I think what I wrote is good too (of course), but hearing it from someone like him, whom I admire so much, felt really good. I saw a video of the debate he had with William Lane Craig before he had read my book (shown below). He did such an excellent job it’s hard to see how my book helps him in his debates. But he said it does, and for that I’m very grateful.

He joins the ranks of others who recommend it…

…like skeptics Daniel Dennett, Paul Kurtz, Christopher Hitchens, Richard Carrier, Edward Babinski (who wrote the Foreword to it), Dan Barker, Valerie Tarico, David Van Allen, Matthew Green, Joe Holman, Chris Hallquist, and others. Kurtz said my book "has the makings of being a great book,” and that he’s “eager to see it in print." On the back cover and inside pages of the Prometheus Books edition there will probably be recommendations by Michael Shermer, John Beversluis, Robert M. Price, Andrea Weisberger, and if the time frame permits him, from Jeffery Jay Lowder (at least, they all have expressed an interest in seeing it for a blurb).

On the Christian side of the fence, Norman L. Geisler and James F. Sennett both recommend it too. Other Christian thinkers who have expressed an interest in seeing it are Paul Copan, Michael Murray, Richard Swinburne, Mark Linville (who is potentially planning on using it in an apologetics seminar), and William Baker (the editor of the Stone-Campell Journal--my former denominational journal). Bill Craig knows about it and will surely take a look at it when it comes out. Scot McKnight is writing a chapter describing the reasons why Christians lose their faith and is highlighting my story.

I don’t tell my readers these things to bore them, or to pat myself on the back (even though it’s nice to be patted by others), or to make money off the sales (of course, if it can help pay a few bills that would really help me out), or to make a name for myself (although, as a middle child we learn that negative attention is still attention). No. My number one goal is to produce the best damn counter-apologetics book on the market today that does not just preach to the skeptical choir, so to speak, if possible (and if not, it’s still a worthy goal). The reason I want to do this is because the better I can make my book, the more it will be read, and I want people to read it! If I hadn’t written the book I would still want people to read a book like this one. If Eddie's recommendation and the others are even somewhat on the mark, my book has the potential of changing the thinking of Christians in America, and the reason why I want to do this was expressed very eloquently by Eddie today in his talk!

The debate between Tabash and Craig:

My Self-Published Book Will No Longer Be Available

My self-published book is being phased out. When Amazon has sold its copies the book will no longer be available. Prometheus Books has picked it up and will be available toward the end of February '08. You can order it now at a price that is about half what it'll be when it comes out. But there will be a time lag of about five months where you cannot get it. I just want my readers to be aware of this in case anyone was thinking about getting it soon. I also want to make a challenge no one yet has met....

I have had about five or more people email me claiming they were going to get my book and dismantle it page by page. One said he was planning on reading most of the books I refer to in mine in order to show me how wrong I am, book by book. Another said he was going to produce a website debunking my book. A couple of others have said they were going to email me their responses page by page. But one after another of these critics simply dropped off the map. Those who started emailing me about my book simply vanished after a few emails. The others I haven't heard from in months. What gives? I have no explanation for this. Maybe they thought my book was so lame it wasn't worth the effort? Maybe they couldn't understand what I wrote? Maybe other more important things crowded out their time? But then maybe what happened is they simply gave up?

Anyway, I challenge someone to try this with my book. I might learn a few things, and that's always a goal of mine. Pick it up and deal with as many arguments in it that you can. Deal with them all if you can. If it causes you to lose your faith (unlikely) then you can thank me, since it means your faith was delusional to begin with. If it strengthens your faith then you can also thank me for challenging you to think a little deeper about these issues. So either way you will be rewarded. And if that's the case you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Here are some of the positive recommendations about it:

Dr. James F. Sennett, Christian philosopher and author of Modality, Probability, and Rationality: A Critical Examination of Alvin Plantinga's Philosophy, and This Much I Know: A Post-Modern Apologetic (unpublished book): "For years I have been saying that Christian apologetics is answering questions no one is asking. Scholarly unbelief is far more sophisticated, far more defensible than any of us would like to believe. John W. Loftus is a scholar and a former Christian who was overwhelmed by that sophistication and damaged irreparably by the inadequate apologetics he had at his disposal. His story is a wake up call to the church: it's time for us to start living in, and speaking to, the real world."

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Dr. Norman L. Geisler, author The Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics: "First [John’s book] is an honest and open account of how a Christian became an atheist. Seldom are unbelievers so candid and open. Second, every Christian--let alone Christian apologist--can learn some valuable lessons from it on how to treat wayward believers. Third, it is a thoughtful and intellectually challenging work, presenting arguments that every honest theist and Christian should face. Indeed, some of his criticisms are valid."

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Dan Barker, author of Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist: "As a former fundamentalist minister who has followed a similar path from apostle to apostate, I empathize completely with the deep struggle Loftus had to make in order to shed his former cherished beliefs. I respect his scholarship, but more than that, I admire his courage. There are many treasures in this book, as well as provocative and controversial arguments, all presented with a crystal-clear and brutal honesty that is rare in religious scholarship. Loftus is a true freethinker, willing to follow the facts wherever they happen to lead."

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David Van Allen, webmaster of www.ex-christian.com: "This book is an absolute 'must have' for anyone who has left the Christian faith or is having serious intellectual doubts about the Christian religion. While the book starts out explaining some of his experiential reasons for leaving Christianity, the volume goes far beyond a mere personal testimony and dives deeply into the elemental contradictions of Christianity. The plethora of scholarly works referenced in this publication places it amongst the better resources for the honest student. To do the volume justice one must be willing to follow the research that has been carefully documented by Loftus. For those without the time or interest to explore the mountain of references, this book will, none-the-less, provide a significant store for future study when time or necessity dictates. Loftus deals evenly with the issues, carefully explaining the strengths and weaknesses of each argument. Loftus' coverage of the problems inherent in the claims of Christianity is comprehensive. Much of what he wrote sounds like an echo of many of my own introspections except expressed through the well oiled mind of an academia. Loftus does not come away from Christianity with the deep bitterness that affects many in de-conversion, but rather retains admiration for the good influence Christianity had on his own youth. If you are an honest seeker, or an honest doubter; if you truly believe, or truly doubt; I highly recommend you add this book to your collection."

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Richard Carrier, author of Sense and Goodness Without God, said this about The Outsider Test for Faith chapter: "that's an excellent chapter. The logic of it is insurmountable, in my opinion, even by a so-called reformed or 'holy spirit' epistemologist."

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Matthew J. Green: “It's not everyday that I get to befriend a fellow apostate and freethinker who left the Christian faith but also one who has a sharp theological mind such as John W. Loftus. A divinity school graduate with three master’s degrees, a former student of William Lane Craig, and an academic star in his school days, Loftus has a formidable resume. That's why I was eager to purchase and read Loftus' book Why I Rejected Christianity. This book is one of the best introductory texts on the philosophical problems with Christianity.”

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Christopher Hallquist, president of Atheists, Humanists, and Agnostics at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and blog owner of http://uncrediblehallq.blogspot.com: “Where I'm not familiar with the material, I have found Loftus' book quite helpful. I also have no trouble saying the section on the problem of evil was top-notch. Loftus' extensive use and citation of existing material makes this an excellent guide to the literature for anyone who wants to do further reading."

There are also a few real gems originality thrown in there. The best section, though, is at the beginning, in a section called The Outsider Test: "Test your beliefs as if you were an outsider to the faith you are evaluating." Here, Loftus solidifies an idea that has floated around in much skeptical rhetoric for some time. He opens up the possibility of consistently applying an idea that has so far only been applied haphazardly. When this is done, the effect is utterly devastating to religious belief. The Outsider Test should earn Loftus a permanent place in the history of critiques of religion."

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Joe E. Holman, founder of www.ministerturnsatheist.org, and author of Project Bible Truth: What Your Church Doesn't Want You To Know (Forthcoming): "With excellent scholarship and thorough detail, Loftus powerfully and systematically dismantles the Christian religion, refuting long held arguments of apologists, laying to waste sacred and traditional beliefs of the faith."

"The book's central strength lies in its information-rich content. In truth, a person could spend quite a long time following up on John's sources and recommended reading materials. There is a tremendous well of knowledge here. The work is chock-full of great information with one major theme underlying it all; the supporting "facts," the cardinal pillars of Christianity, cannot be rescued from unrelenting, submerging doubt--even if one happens to find belief in Christianity viable. Cause for serious skepticism is everywhere lurking. The major tenants of Christianity, the "core doctrines" at the heart of the faith, are shaky at best and vulnerable to attack from all sides of debate. John speaks the language of competent and well-known Christian scholars and apologists of both liberal and conservative affiliation, employing their own words against them, demonstrating that they themselves recognize the grave position they are in when facing the critical eye of a skeptical, modern world."

"I see this book being of exceptional value to college students, philosophy buffs, and particularly those who are "on the fence," actively struggling with an open mind to objectively beat their doubts about the validity of Christianity. I also see it serving as an ideal study-guide for someone looking to get in touch with other excellent works on the nature of the Christian religion. John's scholarship is solid, drawing from a host of proponents and critics in a wide range of disciplines, including history, philosophy, and theology. Loftus is very well read. Any doubts about that will quickly disappear upon reading the book."

"The Outsider Test for Faith is one of those chapters that says what every doubter of religion has always thought but perhaps never said so well. The chapter is an absolute jewel, an extended take on the old realization that "If you lived in Iraq, you'd be a Muslim." John did a masterful job at making application of this truth.

In addition to possessing some very fine chapters this work covers some ground that is seldom touched on in other comparable freethought works."

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Chris Knight-Griffin:
"If you have questions about your faith, read this book. Those nagging questions are addressed and exposed. Every skeptic should have this concise reference book on the desk, dog-eared, tagged, and highlighted. I’ve read Sam Harris' book, The End of Faith, and Richard Dawkins' book, The God Delusion. I've read numerous books on the subject but John’s book was what I was looking for. The other books hit the target but John’s book hits the bulls-eye. I doubt anyone with faith could walk away from this book with that faith intact."

"This book is a reference tool with sources documented well beyond most books in this field. Literally hundreds of sources are quoted throughout and it is amazing that someone could sift through that much material into a succinct, scholarly and easy to read work. Awesome book!!!! It is honestly everything I've been looking for so far in my ‘quest’ for knowledge. Thank you!"

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Harry Noetzel, Ph.D: “I find John’s book a well balanced, honest and succinct examination of orthodox Christian beliefs that I would highly recommend to anyone seeking the understanding of the foundations of Christianity.”

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Greg Meeuwsen: "I have read numerous publications on this topic, but I don't believe I've ever seen as many great reasons to reject religion in one place. John’s arguments are numerous and rock-solid. The book reads without even a hint of condescending tone towards his former faith. It is obvious that the man is simply sincere, and he resorts to no personal attacks on any level. This is more than can be said of most current atheist authors. The level of research and brutal logic applied to the Bible is absolutely stunning, as is the sheer number of examples given. There is "no stone unturned", as Loftus takes on nearly every apologist angle ever conceived. This book will give more insight into scholarly unbelief than you ever thought possible."

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Paul Harrison: "If you read Christian apologetics, you owe it to yourself to have this anthology of the best arguments against Christian apologetics in your library."

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Valerie Tarico: "What is unusual about Loftus is his breadth and depth of research in defense of the Christian faith before finally rejecting his faith. Loftus applies himself in this book with the same intellectual rigor he had applied to defending the faith, and effectively dissects those very same arguments. I found myself marveling at the impressively contorted reasoning used by apologists through the ages in defense their received traditions. Arguments on behalf of the “self-authenticating witness of the Holy Spirit” and the incarnation are extraordinary in this regard. These arguments are testimony to the power of the human mind when we are determined to make the evidence fit a preconceived story line---or when we are determined to hold an appealing belief despite being backed into an evidentiary corner. They are worth reading from the standpoint of cognitive psychology alone. It is thoroughly referenced, and quotes extensively from scholars on many sides. His encyclopedic knowledge speaks for itself."

The Lessons of Cho Seung-Hui Killings.

In the 48th comment on Joe Holman's satirical post about the Cho Seung-Hui killings, our own exapologist makes a very good point, one that I expressed to my wife last night, and one which is reminiscent of the Columbine shooters.

While many of us want to argue back and forth about the lessons learned from this killer for and against Christianity, exapologist wrote:

I'm worried about the extent to which this massacre is being used to make our pet points, without taking to heart what happened here.

There is a pattern. A kid, or group of kids, are picked on and alienated from their peers. I'm not talking about an occasional jab, but a systematic, coordinated rejection of a child as a non-person. The kid internalizes the message. It builds up until they can't take it any more, and so they explode -- with lethal consequences.

Why is it so hard to learn this lesson? This sort of systematic alienation is just too much for the human psyche. We're essentially social creatures, and can't survive this sort of global rejection. Can't schools, or at least parents, raise their kids well enough so that it would never occur to them to engage in this sort of bullshit?

Here are two links talking about the treatment Cho Seung-Hui suffered from people in general. See here, and here.

What is wrong with us that we cannot treat people who are different from us humanely and with some measure of respect?

Carnival of the Godless 53

Welcome to the 53^rd edition of the Carnival of the Godless!

I will arrange the posts by subject tags, but the numbering is arbitrary.

Debunking Theism

1. The God Conundrum, by Sean Carroll from Cosmic Variance: Responds to a review by Eagleton of Dawkins' The God Delusion
2. Fruitful Inconsistencies, by Stephen Frug from Attempts: You may want to scroll down -- the first half of the post discusses the way that contradictions in literature, far from being a blemish, can in fact be a source of literary richness; I then apply the same thinking to religion -- a kind of fiction, after all -- and discuss the ways in which the very contradictions that make it (to atheists) not believable is also a source of its imaginative power
3. Conceptual Time-Capsule Five, by Danieru from The Huge Entity: The post is a backlash to recent secular humanist writings from the likes of Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris. My submission explores the nature of our 'God-Shaped Hole' and dismisses claims that science can ever fully override religion.
4. The evidence of things unseen, (trackback) by John from Hell's Handmaiden: "Faith is rarely questioned. The unseen evidence of faith is taken as is. It is even worn as a badge of honor. Or taken almost as a proof of itself. I believe, because I believe."
5. ...And This Bird You Cannot Change..., by Akusai of Action Skeptics: A critical look at religious arguments surrounding free will and the nature of God.

Debunking Christianity (see bottom for more from this site)

1. Christian Presuppositionalism: A General Response, by Daniel Morgan from Debunking Christianity: Highlights a paper from a philosopher (Prof. D. Gene Witmer) responding to this style of Christian apologetics
2. Prof. Gene Witmer Debates Pastor Gene Cook on Unchained Radio, get the .mp3 here: Prof. Witmer and Pastor Cook lock horns over whether atheism is capable of explaining abstract entities like logic and morality, and the conversation turns to the problem of evil near the end -- very good show. Chris Hallquist has some of the transcript with analysis.
   
3. A Hard Look at Presuppositional Transcendental Arguments, #1, #2, #3, by exbeliever from Not Many Wise (formerly of DC): These three articles seriously examine the sorts of arguments that claim that Christianity is true because atheism cannot "account" for certain metaphysical entities, and clearly demonstrates the lack of substance to these arguments.
   
4. What Does Fact Matter?, by Michael Klaas from Klaas Acts: De-constructing a conversation between and evangelical Christian and his potential convert.
5. Burying the Dead -- Normalizing the Extreme in the Gospels: A Hypocrisy of Homilies, by Jerry Monaco from Shandean Postscripts to Politics, Philosophy, & Culture: I write an historical explanation of several passages in the Gospel where the character of Jesus urges his followers to to violate kinship norms, family piety, etc. Kinship systems were both the foundation of Ancient Eastern Mediterranean society and were falling apart everywhere. I explain why attempts to normalize or modernize the Gospels must fail historical scrutiny, because in the context of the time the attack on father-son relations and the chiliastic urgency of the Gospels led the Gospel writers to extremist views.
6. Picking and Choosing Belief, by Jeff Hebert from A Nerd's Country Journal: One atheist's method for deciding which parts of a religious text to give credence to, and which to reject

Evolution/Science

1. Religion, Science, and Bigotry, by Alonzo Fyfe from The Atheist Ethicist: Back in my home state of Montana a Republican law maker called Montana's governor a bigot for claiming that the state's education agenda should not promote the view of those who think that the earth is 4,000 years old. This article looks at the concept of 'bigot' and denies the charge that advancing science fact over science fiction represents any type of bigotry.
2. Francis Collins Does it Again!, by Shalini from Scientia Natura: Evolution And Rationality: On the famous scientists' attempt to save God from scientific falsification, rendering the hypothesis impotent
3. Ken Miller, by Mr. R. from Evolving Education: Talks about the difference in the positions of Dawkins and Miller with respect to evolution -- an ongoing debate amongst scientists and the godless everywhere
4. The Sad State of Science, by Daniel Morgan at DC: comment on the 2006 Science and Engineering Indicators, especially reflects the correlation between poor science education and superstitious thought/belief.
5. Groupthink, by Jason Rosenhouse: Who exhibits the 8 classic symptoms of groupthink more clearly: ID advocates or evolutionary theory (mainstream biological science) advocates?

Misc.

1. Famous Atheists - Butterfly McQueen, by Mojoey from Deep Thoughts: Mojoey has started a project to document and highlight the lives of famous people who are oft-forgotten as having been atheists.
2. Second Coming Insurance, by Stuart from Daily Irreverence: A real story about some Catholic girls who bought insurance to make sure that they'd have the resources to raise the next Jesus
3. Elements of Character, By Wenchypoo from Wisdom from Wenchypoo's Mental Wastebasket: Too often we try to unnecessarily inject the divine into analyses of character
4. The Four Stages of a Truth: Part 1, Part 2, by Francois Tremblay at Check Your Premises: Francois describes human reactions to arguments and facts along the spectrum from acceptance to non-confrontation.
5. Analyzing the Data for Social Trends in Xianity, by Daniel Morgan at GBLoGBB: Is Christianity growing? What are its leaders saying about growth? In what sectors? Are megachurches evidence of growth? What data supports the growth of atheism?
   

On Godlessness, Goodness and Meaning

1. Thus Spoke Zarathustra -- a Book Review, by Brandon Peele from Generative Transformation (trackback): Pretty self-explanatory
2. Make Your Own "Why", by Dave from Villa Nandes: Finding meaning in a godless life.
3. Thank Goodness!, by Daniel Dennett, posted to The Edge: Dennett talks about his very recent near-death experience, and what it taught him about goodness. One of my favorite posts.
4. Atheist pride, by purplebob: calls for agnostics to come out of the closet as atheists, and to use the label with pride, just as queers did -- I suppose the Brights wouldn't appreciate this effort ;-)
5. Peer-Reviewed Article Researching Deconversions, by Daniel Morgan at GBLoGBB: One of the few published journal articles laying out scientific observations among apostates
   

Politics

1. Playing Dirty for God, by the Dr. from And Doctor Biobrain's Response Is...: Questions the role of faith in Bush's own life, in his politics, and in the GOP generally, and concludes, "...it’s not just that Bush is running the False God Kool-Aid stand; he’s also a client."
2. Anti-Dominionism is not McCarthyism, by Alon Levy from Abstract Nonsense: rebukes the notion that people like Kevin Phillips and Michelle Goldberg are just hysteric about Dominionism the way McCarthy was about communism.
3. A Letter Sent to the Office of the Archbishop of York, by Alun Salt at Archaeoastronomy: Archbishops have been attacking public Atheism this week. The Archbishop of York has posted online an address to the Diocese of Newcastle in which the Archbishop insists Christianity should not be rammed down people's throats and the best way to do this is insist on people having Christian names on forms, wishing Merry Christmas rather than seasons greetings and restoring free parking to the good Christians of Plymouth.
4. Ted Haggard Shows the Virtue of Hypocrisy, by Jon Swift: Where did this strange idea that hypocrisy is not a moral virtue come from?
5. Jim Benton on Fundies vs. Gay Marriage, by Salto sobrius: The conservative Christian animosity towards gay marriage is most probably rooted in its interpretation of marriage as defined by women's submission to their husbands.
6. Why I will never vote for anyone who says this, By Barry Leiba from Staring At Empty Pages: Politicians who put God above the people are dangerous.
7. Have we got a minyan for the election?, by Barry Leiba from Staring At Empty Pages: Comments on people praying for favourable election results -- doesn't this amount to asking God to "fix" the election?
8. Evangelicals vs. the Religious Right, by Daniel Morgan at GBLoGBB: Pasted article from Newsweek with commentary afterwards on the intrinsic hypocrisy within the RR among those who give money and time towards the RR but not towards charity
   

A Sample of Debunking Christianity, for the interested:

1. Calvinism Explains Everything and Nothing, by John Loftus at DC: a hard look at the logical difficulties within Calvinism and gullibility required to believe it
   
2. Flat Earth Assumptions of Biblical Authors--Edward T. Babinski VS. Dave Armstrong & J.P. Holding, by Ed Babinski at DC: Examines whether or not the case for a flat earth was biblical
3. The Logical Problem of Evil Is Still Very Much Alive!, by John Loftus at DC: A response to the "solution" by Plantinga to the PoE
4. My Encounter With Calvinism, by Ed Babinski at DC: Discusses the degree of credulity needed to embrace Calvinism
5. Was Jesus Left Handed?, by DagoodS at DC: Wrestles with some of the logical absurdities of the Incarnation -- how God could've been tempted "in all points" like we are
6. On the Possibility of a Beginningless Past: A Reply to William Lane Craig, by exapologist at DC: examines the problems in the cosmological argument for God's existence
7. In Defense of Visions: Objection One, by Matthew Green at DC: rebuttals to naturalistic explanations of the stories in the gospels
8. A Corrupt and Scandalous Faith, by Joe E. Holman at DC: cites famous examples of Christianity's atrocities to support the idea that "Christianity is an albatross to humankind"
9. A Bad Taste!, by exbeliever at DC: cites Scripture to explain why some "have left the fountain [of God] with a horrible taste in our mouths?"
10. There is no Jehovah-Rophi, no Covenant, by Daniel Morgan at DC: investigates the promises of the old and new covenants, particularly with respect to health/healing, and concludes that either God is a liar, or there is no Covenant (and never was)

That's it for this edition. Here are the pages for COTG 52 and COTG 54 (Thanksgiving Ed.).

My Debate on the Problem of Evil

I just got back into town and it's after my bedtime on Sunday night, so I'm going to bed now. I realized after I announced this Blog as a place to comment and to ask questions about the debate, that several people in attendence (just over 100) couldn't comment because we don't allow anonymous comments here at DC. I've disabled that function to allow anyone who was at the debate to do so, but please use your real name.

I personally thought it went well. David Wood and his wife are a kind and winsome couple...a joy to know! I'll write more tomorrow. David hired a professional video company to record the event. We'll have to wait till they've produced the video, and I don't know yet what David wants to do with it. A transcript of the debate is being prepared too, but we'll have to wait for that too. I'll let others judge how well we each did, but I'll tell you what my wife said, and I quote: "the only people who will think David won the debate are those who are blinded by their faith, and/or people who cannot deal with arguments." Of course, she's not entirely objective and neither am I. So, like I said, I'll let others decide for themselves, and I'll tell more about our weekend later.

A big thanks goes out to several people who commented on earlier drafts of my opening statement, including Andrea Weisberger, Richard Carrier, Jeffrey Jay Lowder, Ed Babinski, exapologist, Joe Holman, and Daniel Morgan (who supplied my powerpoint presentation with a few pictures).

Reason Taught Me Selflessness

By Joe E. Holman

I distinctly remember looking at my cell phone. It was 3:04 PM on a Monday afternoon. I was at Walmart, picking up some groceries - some groceries I had to come back to get since I had forgotten them an hour and a half earlier! It was a busy day. I remember sweating and rushing around. I was tired and decided I would grab a quick bite to eat at the MacDonalds store inside before getting in the check-out line. I thought to myself, “Finally, a chance to sit down and just vegetate for about 30 minutes and enjoy a nice cold, double-chocolate milkshake with a Big Mac and super-sized fries!” The thankfully short line at the counter I had to wait in wasn’t that bad. All I wanted was to sit down and rest. My legs were aching, but it wasn’t long until I had my food and was seated comfortably. It was just too good to be true that day. Not a moment after I sat down, I was jolted out of my relaxation by what I saw...

A quaint-looking middle-aged mother with her paraplegic son approached my area of the dining room. Of the relatively few people in the restaurant, not a one of us could look in that direction without shooting off a tiny smile of pity (you know, the kind that severely handicapped people always get, but don’t want?). She wheeled him towards my table and ended up sitting at one of the wheelchair-accessible tables just across from me. I couldn’t help but notice this hideously ugly boy. He was wearing a dirty, light blue, long-sleeved shirt with the whitest albino skin I’d seen in recent memory. His arms were flailing, twisted, and deformed, drawing attention to the rest of his gaunt, crippled body. He couldn’t have been older than 10 or 12. The bones in his pale face were pointed and unnatural looking. His tongue would hang out and his vacant eyes would stare straight ahead and upwards as his misshapen head wobbled repeatedly up and down. He couldn’t keep still. He would squirm so much, he shook those tremendous bags of medical equipment attached to the wheelchair. His mother was feeding him. The patience of that woman was remarkable as she kept on assisting him while massive chunks of food fell out of his mouth, dirtying his stained shirt and the floor all around him.

Now my mind is on my busy day, and when I am trying to complete a task, I am as single-minded and inflexible about it as they come. I don’t want to be bothered. I don’t want to have my down time interrupted. I can’t stand the nasty sight of this boy. I would not have been able to eat had I not positioned my chair to look away from him. The restaurant was small. There was no where else I could sit to avoid seeing or hearing him. But I was hungry, hadn’t eaten all day. I was angry and disturbed, thinking about all the chores I had left to get done by the evening. Then, just when I thought I was going to drop my mind into the proper channel to actually enjoy a bite of the lucious grease burger that sat in front me, it really began, [COUGH, COUGH, COUGH, COUGH...etc.] That damn kid was disrupting my meal! The scene became so bad, I pondered just leaving, but remembered I still needed to check out. Oh well, maybe it’ll pass [COUGH, COUGH, etc.]. I was trying to look away, but was compelled to look back at him: spit-up, exactly the color of my milkshake, all over him and his table! I wasn’t going to be able to finish my meal now, I just knew it! Nothing had gone right this day and here I was being deprived of one of my few pleasures in life - eating! When this happened another four or five times, I wasn’t even hungry anymore! I was angry, damn angry! I couldn’t take my mind off his slobbering all over the place! [COUGH, COUGH, etc.] It continued, made me cringe inside! Every time I would try and look away, this palsied pretzel of a handicapped kid would recapture my attention by spilling more soda, regurgitate French fries, and twist and turn with an open mouth full of food. The twitchy movements and spastic tendencies increased, as did those distasteful moans of disability that sounded like a sick, dying cow [MOOOOAN, MOOANNN, MOOOANN, COUGH, COUGH, COUGH, COUGH, COUGH, COUGH, COUGH, COUGH, COUGH, SQUIRM, SQUIRM, SQUIRM, SQUIRM, SQUIRM, COUGH, COUGH, REGURGITATE, REGURGITATE, REGURGITATE, etc.] By this time, mom had partially chewed food all over her, but you could tell she was used to it. [MOOOAN, MOOOAN, COUGH, COUGH, etc.]The tension was building and my heart started beating faster. I couldn’t believe causality had selected this particular event to happen here and now. The moans got louder. I started to think of ways to wrap up my food and just carry it around with me till I got home, but in the process, I almost spilled my drink because I couldn’t concentrate due to this pitiable specimen of humanity! I so badly wanted to tell the lady to get that damn kid out of there! Why did it have to be happening when I was eating? Why? Why? [COUGH, COUGH, MOOAN, MOOAN, SQUIRM, SQUIRM, REGURGITATE, REGURGITATE, etc.]. The spark was ignited...

“GOD D**NIT, GET THAT F**KING FREAKAZOID KID OUT OF HERE, LADY! HOW COULD YOU BRING THAT MONSTROSITY IN PUBLIC, B**CH! I’M TRYING TO EAT! GET HIM OUT THE F**K OUT, NOWWWWW!!!!”

No...I didn’t actually say those words, but I had to exercise a feat of self-control like few times in my life to keep from saying them! Then I began to cool down...my reason took hold of me, and after a brief mental pause, I began to perspectivize. When I did, it was as though I slapped myself in the face for being a compassionless, selfish prick.

Here was this poor kid, this horrendous mistake of nature, sitting in a wheelchair, absolutely helpless to his circumstances, having to live in a world of shame and misery, and all I could think about is my blasted milkshake!! Here is a pitiable little being, confined to a life of round-the-clock care and all I can focus on is getting to the check out line quickly and scarfing down grub I can come back and get anytime I want!

This deprepid kid! He’ll never know the touch of a beautiful woman, nor the joy of sex. He’ll never know the independence of choosing and buying a house or a shiny new car. He’ll never know what it is like to run down to the local 7-11 corner store and grab a Big Gulp after a hard workout. He won’t even know the carefree fun of getting drunk with his buddies at a late night party. He should never have been subjected to this life. Someone, some people, should have known better and not let it come to this, but that wasn’t his decision to make. A mistake was made, and he was that mistake...a living, breathing mistake.

But not me. My faculties work fine, physically and mentally. Through and through, I’m a normal guy. I’m no Brad Pitt by any means, but when I go out in public, I never have to worry about being pitied as a freak of nature. I will never have to face the sort of mockery he faces. No sir ‘ee! I can go to the store and do whatever my precious self desires to do when I am good and ready!

But damned if I didn’t come within an inch of losing my head and saying something to that poor mother I would have forever regretted.

Here is this unfortunate woman, waiting night and day on this invalid. Her patience could be seen in her eyes. But I wasn’t thinking about either of them, nor the pain and the difficulties they must face everyday. I was only thinking about me and my precious, ordinary life. I was being selfish, totally selfish.

On their way out, this woman glanced at me, and I have a feeling as perceptive as she seemed to be, she might have been noticing how perturbed people were at her for subjecting them to her son. She glanced at me just for a second as she was about to head out the door, and as she did, I smiled at her to let her know that it was OK with me. I’m sure glad I had that chance.

Better late than never, I became unselfish. I became unselfish not by religion, not by Christianity, not by Islam, not by the principles of Tibetan Buddhism, not by the prevalent influence of so-called “Judeo-Christian Values”, and not by self-help books promoted by that crying-crew homefront known as The Oprah Winfry Show, but by the most valuable thing instilled in us all - reason. No deity was shaking his finger at me, telling me to become unselfish when I put myself in her place and made way for my anger to subside. I became selfless when the reason in me combined with my humanity, and when I remembered that old, cherished saying, “Tears are our common lot.”

(JH)

Both Sides of the Fence

By Joe E. Holman

Having spent roughly nine years of my life as a Christian minister for the protestant fundamentalist sect known as the Church of Christ, I am more than moved to tell my story and assist in the efforts of this fine blog to dispel my former religion, along with it’s many delusions and vices that plague our world.

The freethought movement is growing all over our planet. The clarion sound of liberty’s ring is being heard in places where only savagery abounded years before. Education levels are rising. Cultures are getting smarter and beginning to trust that their minds are good for more than memorizing vulgar prayers and sputtering out chants of flattery to vengeful sky spirits. Despite the best efforts of the religious right, a number of nations of the world are adopting that glorious Ionian spirit of tolerance and the freedom to express new ideas and knowledge.

Little by little, the cobwebs of Christianity are being cleared away and centuries old philosophical junk is being tossed into the dumpster of antiquity where it belongs. The dust, which is the fear, guilt, and oppression of the Christian Cult, is continually being cleansed away, revealing a bright and shiny new surface beneath with each passing century. With Christianity out of the way, Man steps up to the platform boldly to speak and declare his chosen new destiny. He now has nothing to fear, nothing to hold back his progress anymore. The tormenting demons are gone forever.

Many people, wielding many different talents and abilities, make for a lot to offer the freethought movement. My small contribution here stems from having been a minister, educated and trained as a Christian professional, to answer the deep and heart-rending questions of life. Having left the ministry behind, I resolved to take with me what little wisdom I could. The change from minister to atheist was a difficult one indeed, but it made me who I am today, the result being I can now see the world from both sides of the fence - without those disabling and crippling mental defense mechanisms which annoyingly pop up in the mind, subverting objectivity.

I have always said that it is starkly amazing what a naïve, willing mind will believe in, but what is even more amazing is when the individual looks back on his/her life and asks that ever-perplexing question which seems to have no answer, the one that I now ask about my previous adoption of Christianity, “How did I ever come to believe in that?”

(JH)

Joe's Website: ministerturnsatheist.org

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Edited by John:
Be sure to read Joe's deconversion story: FROM GOSPEL PREACHER TO GOOD ATHEIST