February 28, 2006

My Purpose in Posting

I'd like to lay some cement here in terms of my posting. First off, I want everyone to understand that I am an atheist. However, I am an intrasigent atheist; this means that I am an uncompromising, to-the-deathbed, staunch atheist. I am not a militant atheist. Just to be clear, I am fighting for reason, freethought, and rational skepticism. I am not out to attack or destroy religion, if we take this to mean deconverting people. I am not out to challenge, destroy, or deconvert the faith of people. My purpose here in "debunking" Christianity is not to be understood in the sense of militant skepticism and active evangelical atheism. My purpose is to help educate other Skeptics, not necessarily to deconvert people from the Christian faith. My contributions should be understood as being mostly thoughtful, intelligent, and schoarly critiques of various Christian doctrines or creeds.
I may, for instance, post an essay about the Trinity and some intellectual problems I may have with it or, perhaps, about why I feel the doctrine of inerrancy is badly flawed.

My chief purpose on here is to help serve as a source of counter-apologetics. I wish to provide "the other side" so to speak. I want to provide answers to Christian arguments so Skeptics can have something to rebut and counter the tactics and arguments of would-be evangelists who are trying to convert them and perhaps even militant apologists who are determined to argue, and perhaps even intellectually bully, a nonbeliever or Skeptic into the Christian faith. I also want to reach out to those who are undecided and give them some information and arguments so they can make an educated and well-informed decision. It's precisely this reason that I am a participant in Tekton's "Scholarly Diplomacy Series".

Look, I see no reason to be a militant Skeptic or evangelical atheist, at least not yet. I haven't any desire to argue with anyone. I am very content just to live in peace with others and help to foster understanding and respect. This means that I am willing to do it even if respect isn't exactly mutual. The chief reasons for my posting here are that I like working with apostates who have some advanced training or academic education such as John Loftus and others on here and I want to engage in counter-apologetics. I just want to get feedback on counter-apologetic arguments and see if there are any flaws in my reasoning.

With respect!

Matthew

February 27, 2006

Life After the Vortex (An Existentialist Reading)

In my previous post, "Step into My Vortex" (which you should read before this one), I suggested a "braver" way to deal with our insignificance in the universe is to take Camus' approach to the situation presented in his Myth of Sisyphus.

Here's something I posted about this book on another blog.


***

I've written several times about the influence that Albert Camus' The Myth of Sisyphus has had on me. Camus starts with the assumption that humans seek meaning and purpose in their lives. The universe, however, always appears meaningless and purposeless. People suffer and die for no apparent reason, natural disasters devastate humans and animals, people mistreat others, people hoard resources, etc. Additionally, they discover (through astronomy) that they are insignificant specks in an unimaginably vast universe. When people begin to see the chaos in the universe, they are faced with a decision. Should they continue to live in this indifferent world or should they end their lives? If they choose to live, how shall they continue to do so?

Camus suggests that most people who decide to continue living make some kind of 'leap of faith.' They choose to believe that there is some kind of secret, hidden meaning and purpose to their existence. They posit a god who hides him/herself from humans, but who will some day right all wrongs. They invent another world outside of the one they know in which everything is good and different from the present world. This invention helps them deal with the reality glaring at them (viz. the universe is indifferent to their existence).

Camus offers another alternative to suicide and this 'leap of faith.' He recommends that humans learn to accept the universe as it is, that they stop trying to make it look better than it is, that they courageously accept the obvious senselessness of existence. The way to do this, Camus suggests, is to just stop picturing something better than what actually is. Our lot in life (as an insignificant collection of atoms) is only miserable when one attempts to imagine something better than what exists.

This is where Camus' allegory of Sisyphus is enlightening. The story of Sisyphus comes to us through ancient Greek myth. He was a man who did not properly fear the gods. He deceived them and would not follow their direction. For his insolence, Sisyphus was condemned to spend all eternity rolling a huge boulder up a steep mountain only to have the boulder roll down under its own weight before he got it to the top. Sisyphus' punishment, then, was to engage in eternal futility.

Camus believes Sisyphus' fate is analogous to every day human existence. We are all engaged in perpetual futility. Nothing we do has any lasting effect upon the vast universe in which we live.

How we choose to feel about the futility of our existence, however, is up to us. We could engage our thoughts in speculation about how the universe could be better and more responsive to our existence. We could imagine heavens and gods and pleasant things that do not exist in the world we know.

Another option, however, is that we could accept our existence for what it is ... futility. We could acknowledge that we could imagine a better existence (one with good gods, eternal life, and pleasures of every kind), but that this imagined existence simply is not what we have. We have a pointless existence, but this pointless existence is our pointless existence. It's all we have and as such it is good, because at least we have it.

This is how Camus imagines Sisyphus. Because he knows that the labor of rolling the boulder up the mountain is the only existence he will ever experience, it is not a punishment to him. It loses its misery. Only if he imagines something different, something "better," does what he does have become unbearable. If, however, he accepts his lot as his lot, then it is neither good nor bad, but simply what is. And because it is, it is better than not being and is, therefore, something to take pleasure in. Sisyphus learns happiness in the futility of his action because he stops imagining another, better existence.

At this point in my life, I feel that I can relate to Sisyphus. Sure, it would be nice to imagine some kind of eternal pleasurable existence (my "heaven" would be an eternity to love and be loved by my wife). It would be pleasing to think that my life here has some kind of eternal significance.

The evidence, however, suggests otherwise. And I'm okay with that. When my brain stops functioning and my heart stops beating, I will cease to exist. I will feel neither pain nor pleasure, grief nor loss, regret nor pride. I will no longer be. There will be nothing left to mourn the absence of my wife in my life. There will be nothing left of me. My body will decay, human life will go on and then eventually end without me.

This may sound sad, but it is what all the evidence seems to point to. It is what is. It is neither happy nor sad; it simply is.

I choose to live the life that "is" without fear or regret. I will not invent mythical worlds so unlike the one that actually does exist that it makes this one unbearable. I will face each day with courage. I will surrender to the futility of this life, not fatalistically, but with joyous acceptance of reality. I will make my friendships count in this world, in this life. I will not attempt to hide the person I am to please others because this is the only life I have and I want to live it honestly and openly. I will not waste this precious, short time I have hedging myself in an imagined religion that robs me of the only existence I will ever experience.

This is my philosophy of life.

Step into My Vortex

My wife and I love to read. We usually choose a book series, go to bed early and read aloud to one another every night until we finish the series. Last year, we read through Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series of novels.

One night, we were reading a section in The Restaurant at the End of the Universe and it described one of the most terrible possible tortures in the galaxy, the "Total Perspective Vortex." This torture involves showing someone, "The Universe... the whole infinite Universe. The infinite suns, the infinite distances betweeen them and yourself an invisible dot on an invisible dot, infinitely small." The shock of seeing this has the affect of annihiliating the viewer's brain, because "if life is going to exist in a Universe of this size, then the one thing it cannot afford to have is a sense of proportion." Knowing one's true place in the Universe causes the brain to explode.


The Total Perspective Vortex was invented by extrapolating matter from a piece of fairy cake into the whole Universe. Since I don't have any fairy cake, I can't recreate it, but here is my Vortex.

Size is always relative, so there needs to be a starting point, some point of reference. Let's start with you as our reference. There are just less than six billion people on this planet. Now, we use numbers like billions and trillions a lot (especially with a Republican president who doesn't mind debt). That overuse can warp our perspective on numbers. Maybe an illustration would help. If you were to spend sixteen hours per day (so you could still get eight hours of sleep) counting one number per second, it would take you approximately three hundred years to count to six billion. Relative to the rest of humanity, you are small and insignificant.

Now, our Earth holds all six billion of these people. So that's pretty big, huh? No. Relative to the other bodies in our solar system, the Earth is tiny.


Relative Size


Look at the size of Earth relative to Jupiter. I don't remember how many Earths will fit into the tornado (eye) on Jupiter, but I remember it being more than one. Now look at the Earth relative to the Sun. And that is only a piece of the sun.

Well, at least, the Sun is relatively large, right? Not really. Our Sun is on the medium-small side. Our sun resides in a galaxy called the Milky Way. The Milky way is a whirling collection of over a hundred thousand million stars around the same size as our sun (it would take you over 3500 years to count that high at the same rate mentioned above).


Milky Way

Notice the insignificant location of our sun. It is in an insignificant point on an insignificant spoke of a spinning wheel.

Well, then, maybe our galaxy is significant? Not really. Estimates from the Hubble teliscope suggest there might be one-hundred, twenty-five billion galaxies (it would take you about 6000 years to count that). Each of those galaxies contain billions of stars. This is just a snapshot from Hubble.


Hubble Snapshot

Those galaxies pictured are huge and are speeding away from us at tremendous velocity (isolating us even more).

Now, go back and rewind this tape. Start with a picture of all the galaxies in the universe. After a long period of time, find our insignificant galaxy among the billions of others. Look toward that insignificant spoke and continue to zoom in until you find the insignificant star (i.e. the Sun) in the midst of the billions of others. Go past the larger planets until you find the tiny blue and green one. Start zooming in on the continent you live in. See all of the huge structures of the surrounding cities. Catch a glimpse of the hundreds of thousands of small human creatures walking around. Keep going until you see one of them sitting in front of your computer reading a stupid blog.

Breathe in, breathe out and quickly try to forget it all. Pretend that you matter. Pretend that anything that happens here matters in the scope of the universe.

Or, if you are brave enough, read The Myth of Sisyphus and find a "more excellent way" to deal with your smallness.

***

For an even cooler, animated version of this, click here

February 26, 2006

Both Sides of the Fence

By Joe E. Holman

Having spent roughly nine years of my life as a Christian minister for the protestant fundamentalist sect known as the Church of Christ, I am more than moved to tell my story and assist in the efforts of this fine blog to dispel my former religion, along with it’s many delusions and vices that plague our world.


The freethought movement is growing all over our planet. The clarion sound of liberty’s ring is being heard in places where only savagery abounded years before. Education levels are rising. Cultures are getting smarter and beginning to trust that their minds are good for more than memorizing vulgar prayers and sputtering out chants of flattery to vengeful sky spirits. Despite the best efforts of the religious right, a number of nations of the world are adopting that glorious Ionian spirit of tolerance and the freedom to express new ideas and knowledge.

Little by little, the cobwebs of Christianity are being cleared away and centuries old philosophical junk is being tossed into the dumpster of antiquity where it belongs. The dust, which is the fear, guilt, and oppression of the Christian Cult, is continually being cleansed away, revealing a bright and shiny new surface beneath with each passing century. With Christianity out of the way, Man steps up to the platform boldly to speak and declare his chosen new destiny. He now has nothing to fear, nothing to hold back his progress anymore. The tormenting demons are gone forever.

Many people, wielding many different talents and abilities, make for a lot to offer the freethought movement. My small contribution here stems from having been a minister, educated and trained as a Christian professional, to answer the deep and heart-rending questions of life. Having left the ministry behind, I resolved to take with me what little wisdom I could. The change from minister to atheist was a difficult one indeed, but it made me who I am today, the result being I can now see the world from both sides of the fence - without those disabling and crippling mental defense mechanisms which annoyingly pop up in the mind, subverting objectivity.

I have always said that it is starkly amazing what a naïve, willing mind will believe in, but what is even more amazing is when the individual looks back on his/her life and asks that ever-perplexing question which seems to have no answer, the one that I now ask about my previous adoption of Christianity, “How did I ever come to believe in that?”

(JH)

Joe's Website: ministerturnsatheist.org

---------------------

Edited by John:
Be sure to read Joe's deconversion story: FROM GOSPEL PREACHER TO GOOD ATHEIST

February 25, 2006

On the Subject of Authorship

I figured since we were on the subject of authorship and certain Christians' inability to determine it, I would dust off some golden oldies (I think I read them first in Paine's Age of Reason) about Moses' authorship of the Pentateuch.


A few of these aren't great arguments (i.e. they do not stand on their own as a "proof"), but they are statements that best make sense if one believes that Moses did not author these books. In other words, they best support the assumption that someone else wrote the first five books of the Bible.

1) Moses is always referred to in the third person. This is a weird style of writing. Why not just say "I" instead of "Moses"?

[This one is weak on its own.]

2) Deuteronomy tells where Moses is buried and states that "no one knows his burial place to this day." This indicates that this was written some time after Moses' death because it is remarkable that no one knows to this day--i.e. in a time far removed from his death.

[Even conservatives admit that Moses didn't write this. Usually, they say it is Joshua, but that really wouldn't make sense of the "to this day" comment.]

3) In Genesis 14, it states that Abraham chased his nephew's captors to the city of Dan. The problem is that Dan wasn't a city until the time of Samson (Judges 18:27) some 331 years after Moses died. Moses could not have known about Dan.

[This one is better. Was it a different Dan in the same location 300 years before it was renamed "Dan"? Unlikely.]

4) In Genesis 36:31 it lists some kings of the other countries "before any king reigned over the Israelites." In Moses' life there were no kings in Israel. This didn't happen until Saul, hundreds of years after Moses died. And the fact that they say any king implies that there have been at least more than one before this passage was written. Moses couldn't have written this.

[This is pretty difficult to get around. Sure, Moses was a prophet, but the fact that this statement is said so matter-of-factly is notable. One wonders why it wouldn't have been brought up by Samuel when the people were calling for a king hundreds of years later.]

5) Exodus 16:35 reads, "The Israelites ate manna forty years, until they came to a habitable land; they ate manna, until they came to the border of the land of Canaan." Moses was dead before the Israelites reached the border.

[Hmmm. Doesn't sound like a "prophecy" to me. Sounds like a statement of fact.]

6) In trying to prove the existence of giants, Deuteronomy 3:11 says, "Now only King Og of Bashan was left of the remnant of the Rephaim. In fact his bed, an iron bed, can still be seen in Rabbah of the Amorites." In this passage, this bed is already an ancient relic that can still be seen in Rabbah (a city which was not even conquered until King David ruled over Israel). This is much too late for Moses to write.

[More prophecy? Certainly doesn't sound like it.]

***

Is this even important? Maybe.

Jesus seems to believe that Moses wrote those books. In John 7:19 Jesus says, "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me."

Paul attributes the books to Moses: "For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness." Romans 10:5

Throughout the history of the early Church, Christians believed in Moses' authorship of the Pentateuch.

Is it possible that Jesus, Paul, and the early church was wrong? [Of course, I guess you could say that Moses wrote parts of the book and that Jesus and Paul were only refering to the parts that he wrote, but I'm going with the "they were wrong" theory, well, because I'm an apostate.]

***

Okay, so normally I don't buy into "black helicopter" theories, but this one is a little too hard to resist.

When could the Pentateuch have been written?

In 2 Kings 22:8-13, there is this interesting story. Israel had long been divided into two kingdoms. Josiah had just come to be king of Judah. He wanted to repair the temple and told the priest to go through all the stuff and see how much money they had. While the high priest was looking, he found the "Book of the Law" and gave it to a secretary who read it to Josiah. When Josiah heard it, he tore his clothes because he realized that they had not been obeying God.

[Here's the passage lest you thinks I makes this stuffs up: "The high priest Hilkiah said to Shapan the secretary, 'I have found the book of the law in the house of the Lord.' When Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, he read it. Then Shaphan the secretary came to the king, and reported to the king, 'Your servants have emptied out the money that was found in the house, and have delivered it ion the hand of the workers who have oversight of the house of the Lord.' Shaphan the secretary informed the king, 'The priest Hilkiah has given me a book.' Shaphan then read it aloud to the king. When the king heard the words of the book of the law, he tore his clothes. Then the king commanded the priest Hilkiah, Ahikam son of Shaphan, Achbor son of Micaiah, Shaphan the secretary, and the king's servant Asaiah, saying, 'Go, inquire of the Lord for me, for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that has been found; for great is the wrath of the Lord that is kindled against us, because our ancestors did not obey the words of this book, to do according to all that is written concerning us.'"]

Now, what if instead of "finding" the Law (another way of saying the first five books of the Bible) here, this is when it was actually written?

What if most of the Hebrew Bible was actually written at a time in the divided kingdom of Israel when Josiah wanted to control the people he was ruling? What if it was written to keep a crumbling kingdom together as a system of control?

Governments and institutions make money off the labor of the masses. What better way to keep people in their place than make up some crap about eternal rewards for faithful earthly servitude? Religion keeps people docile and obedient to the "powers that be." Maybe it's all made up to that we can be manipulated into being sheep (interesting that that's such a well established biblical metaphor, huh).

***

So, maybe that is stretching it a bit, but it is an interesting theory, isn't it?

Incomprehensible Stupidity

I'm literally shocked by how stupid steve from Triablogue is. I mean, this has to set some kind of world record of stupidity.

On Thursday, I wrote this comment. Later on Friday, John added a section to it. He wanted to make sure that everyone knew that he was making this addition, not me. He wrote, "The following is added by John..."

Seriously, his addition was that big. Only a moron could have overlooked that (and two of them did).


In spite of the blazingly clear statement that John was adding to my post, steve (a village idiot):

1) attributes the comment to me--"posted by exbeliever"

2) writes some response to John's comments (that I didn't bother to read), and says, "So that, Exbeliever, is the proper exegesis of these verses." (emphasis mine)

GeneMBridges, universally noted for his inability to put together a coherent thought, once again displays his stupidity:

1) Commenting on steve's post, he writes, "The funny thing here is the Ex-believer has gone out of his way to say he is acting in a detached fashion, yet he keeps writing these jeremiads. " (emphasis mine)

2) Again, "He [i.e. exbeliever] would want us to believe he has no agenda, but to "refute" Evan, he picks up on a passage of Scripture dealing with 1st century Christians who were also being persecuted by the pagans around them and suffering for their faith." (emphasis mine) Gene says that "I" am picking up passages to refute Evan. Gene can't read the huge red letters either.

3) Still again, "One wonders, is Ex-believer now admitting he does have an agenda and that it includes causing suffering for the faith on the part of Christians? If we assume his use of v. 9, for example, is correct, then it would also mean that he has himself abused and done evil and believes that we at Tblogue are repaying him in kind."

4) He writes, "No, Ex-believer." and then writes some stupid drivel.

So, I read this and I think, "How ironic; here two idiots trying to correct someone's ability to read and understand someone's written expression, and they are making the most ridiculous reading errors imaginable."

I decided I would tell them about it. I wrote:
So, I'm supposed to trust your exegesis of passages, when you miss the biggest freakin' red letters on the planet that say, "The following is added by John..." [That's John Loftus, not exbeliever] and then go on to attribute the whole thing to me? You address all of your comments to me when I didn't write anything that you quoted.

It's called reading, my friends. I'm afraid that this is typical of your intellectual abilities.

So, am I going to get an admission of a mistake?! Are you going to admit that you can't read for crap and that you missed those huge red letters that I saw at 3:00 pm this afternoon that explicitly state that I wrote NOTHING that you quoted.

I won't hold my breath.
Well, it's a good thing that I didn't hold my breath.

Look at how crap-for-brains responds:

The "red-letter" words are attributed to Loftus, but the post is attributed to you. We can attribute it to either of you since that comes from the composite authorship of the post itself.

So, yes, it's called reading, exbeliever. I'm afraid this is typical of your intellectual abilities.
Hmmm. . . Need I say anything about this? He can't admit any mistake! He says that it is perfectly justified to attribute something to me even though John, who actually wrote the statement, clearly distanced the statement from me. Moron!

Not wanting to leave any doubt about his stupidity, steve responds to my question, "So, am I going to get an admission of a mistake?!" by saying:
Well, ordinarily I don't admit other men's mistakes for them, but since you insist, yes, it was a mistake for you to let Loftus amend your original post.
He simply refuses to state that he made a mistake!

Is there anyone--Christian or non-Christian--who will agree with these idiots? Will anyone justify these blatant errors and steve's pride for refusing to admit when he is wrong? Does anyone blame me for writing off these idiots?

February 23, 2006

A Very Sad Farewell

Steve, over at Triablogue, is an interesting fellow. If for no other reason than the spectacle of unexcelled hubris, he is worth the read.

I mention this because he seems to have become obsessed with this blog. Here is what he's posted so far: Why does John Loftus ask so many dumb questions?, Debunking Loftawful bunk, Social conditioning, Exbrainer, To the ends of the earth, God can damn well damn anyone he damn well pleases, Autobiographical Atheism, The Legend of Sleepy Hollow, The Loser's Club, Baby Atheism.

I really don't have anything to comment on. If you want to read some of the most sophomoric and laughable ad hominem arguments that have ever been formed, peruse the above.


Somehow, Steve has come under the impression that he is some kind of intellectual. In his latest post, he wants everyone to know how intelligent he is and says to John Loftus, "I can run to your right both as a believer and an unbeliever. IÂ’ve been on both sides of the fence. YouÂ’re just canon fodder." He also claims to have given "rigorous counterarguments," but if you can find those anywhere in his posts, please point them out.

As you can read from Steve's posts, apparently his idea of "rigorous counterarguments" is the "You're-a-big-liar" defense. That's where he assumes you are a liar and proclaims himself the winner of a debate.

Anyway, if you need a good laugh, read through some of Steve's "arguments." I tried to stick with the blog hoping that something intelligent would be said, but I think I've read enough to know that they really have nothing. From now on, I'm going to read a more intelligent Christian blog.

-----------------------
The following is added by John...Look at the hermeneutical skills of evanmay here. The people at triablogue do not seem to be able to properly exegete simple sentences, so how do they propose to properly understand paragraphs, arguments, mild arguments, and/or complex arguments? How can they propose to even understand their Bible? Most all of the same hermeneutical skills are required.

If God exists, his first order of business should be to save himself from these so-called defenders of his. They only serve to remind me almost everytime they post something why I'm glad to have left what they seek to defend. Their behavior is indicative of the fact that the Holy Spirit does not exist because they exhibit none of the fruits of the Spirit.

My challenge to evanmay: Prove to me that you can properly understand what I meant with my one liner, and thereby debunk yourself, or, forever be thought of by me as being so blinded by your faith that you cannot think straight.

Your choice.
----------------------------

And while you're exegeting my statement, try properly exegeting these verses:

12 Conduct yourselves honorably among the Gentiles, so that, though they malign you as evildoers, they may see your honorable deeds and glorify God when he comes to judge. 13 For the Lord’s sake accept the authority of every human institution, whether of the emperor as supreme, 14 or of governors, as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right. 15 For it is God’s will that by doing right you should silence the ignorance of the foolish. 16 As servants of God, live as free people, yet do not use your freedom as a pretext for evil. 17 Honor everyone. Love the family of believers. Fear God. Honor the emperor. [I Peter 1:12-17]


9 Do not repay evil for evil or abuse for abuse; but, on the contrary, repay with a blessing. It is for this that you were called—that you might inherit a blessing. 10 For “Those who desire life and desire to see good days,let them keep their tongues from evil and their lips from speaking deceit; 11 let them turn away from evil and do good; let them seek peace and pursue it. 12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous,and his ears are open to their prayer. But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”13 Now who will harm you if you are eager to do what is good? 14 But even if you do suffer for doing what is right, you are blessed. Do not fear what they fear, and do not be intimidated, 15 but in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be ready to make your defense to anyone who demands from you an accounting for the hope that is in you; 16 yet do it with gentleness and reverence. Keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who abuse you for your good conduct in Christ may be put to shame. [I Peter 3:9-16]



I don't have to follow this advice, but with only a few exceptions I think I do much better than they do at following it, and I don't claim to have the Holy Spirit helping me either.

Religious Faith and Internal Critiques....

Here's an LA Times piece about a Mormon faith crisis: Bedrock of a Faith Is Jolted

A few years ago, a Mormon believer named Loayza said his faith was shaken and his identity stripped away by DNA evidence showing that the ancestors of American natives came from Asia, not the Middle East. For Mormons, the lack of discernible Hebrew blood in Native Americans is no minor collision between faith and science. It burrows into the historical foundations of the Book of Mormon.


But look what these Mormon believers do--they merely reinterpret their Scriptures:

Yet at the same time, the church has subtly promoted a fresh interpretation of the Book of Mormon intended to reconcile the DNA findings with the scriptures. This analysis is radically at odds with long-standing Mormon teachings.


And look what they eventually are expected to choose to believe...

Some longtime observers believe that ultimately, the vast majority of Mormons will disregard the genetic research as an unworthy distraction from their faith.


This is how believers tend to defend their beliefs, because they have a huge stake in the results. Why can't they be dispassionate about the truth of their faith? I've offered reasons why. I think these reasons apply to religious believers across the board. Believers are so blinded by their faith that they will not allow themselves to see things any other way, even in the midst of a changing world and in this case, hard evidence. It should cause all believers to be cautious when they see other believers do this.

How is it possible to truly offer an internal critique of another's faith when it continually moves and is unaffected by science? Religious faith is untestable and yet it is held on to like it's the only thing known for sure, even though the religion we initially adopt is the one we are all born into, and even though almost anything can be rationally denied.

The Justice of God and Penal Substitution

The centerpiece of Christian theology is the atonement. Various theories of the atonement have been put forth by theologians throughout Church History but the dominant one in evangelical circles is the Penal Substitution Theory. To emphasize this point, John MacArthur states:

"The doctrine Anselm articulated, known as the penal substitution theory of the atonement, has long been considered an essential aspect of all doctrine that is truly evangelical. Historically, all who have abandoned this view have led movements away from evangelicalism. "

In simple terms, the penal substiutionary view states that Christ suffered the penalty for sin in man's place by dying on the cross. His death satisfies the holy wrath of God against sin and allows God to justly forgive sinners.This view seems at its root to be unjust. How can it be considered justice for an innocent party to suffer the penalty due a guilty party? This seems to run contrary to the basic idea of justice; yet we are told that it is precisely because of God's unswervable justice that the death of Christ was necessary.

An Evidentialist Challenge, Restated

I was asked to justify the laws of logic in a godless universe.

I did so here:
As for the laws of logic, what if they are only seemingly universal, but are truly not so? In the atheistic worldview there are objects in the universe. The relationships between those objects, however, are "not" in the universe. Steven Pinker's work (expanding on Chomsky's) has shown that the brain has different grammatical "sections" inside it. One section holds information about nouns, another verbs, another conjunctions.


When I say that the universe contains objects, I have the idea of "nouns" in mind. Now, what if the brain has simply evolved in a way that it attempts to grammatically relate nouns to each other? The laws of logic rely on words like "and," "or," "not," "is," etc. These words do not name things that exist in the universe. The laws of logic are made up of these words, however. The law of non-contradiction could not exist, for example, if the concept of "not" didn't exist. The laws of logic give rules of how objects relate to one another. There would be no laws of logic were it not for our language that holds certain relational concepts.

If the laws of logic were simply the result of the way that the human brain has formed, this explains why they would certainly "seem" universal. Inasmuch as human brains are similar (and they are very much so), then the laws of logic would seem universal to everyone with a similarly functioning brain. We could not fathom a possible world in which those laws would not apply because we cannot imagine the world differently than our brains allow us to. We would read our thoughts about the relationships of objects into every world that we imagined. The laws of logic would seem to us universal even if they were not.

But this theory does more than just explain why laws of logic can seem universal. It also has powerful explanatory power in cases of so-called "madness." If the laws of logic are simply mental constructs about the relationships of objects, then this would explain why people with brain damage and "malfunctioning" brains are so consistently "illogical." These people constantly deny the laws of logic. They see the world very differently than the rest of us. If the brain is responsible for constructing relationships between objects, then, it would come as no surprise when people with damaged or "malfunctioning" brains did not construct these same relationships.

Imagine, for example, a world filled with people with a similar brain damage. The laws of logic would look very different in this world.

Also, this theory has powerful explanatory powers when it comes to the Saphir-Whorf hypothesis. This hypothesis suggests that language is responsible for shaping worldviews. In countries with dramatically different languages, what is considered "logical" is very different. We have Eastern and Western logics that are extremely dissimilar. While the condition of the human brain would explain the similarities between different cultures, the languages of those cultures would explain these logical differences.

My point, here, is to demonstrate that while universal laws of logic may, in fact, be unjustifiable in an atheistic worldview (though many atheists have good reason to deny this), seemingly universal laws of logic are easily justifiable by the theory I explained above.

I was asked to justify moral judgments in a godless universe.

I did so here:
But are all relative judgments invalid?

Consider motion. Imagine sitting next to me in a bar when I suddenly begin screaming, "My Guinness is moving! Sweet Lola, save me, my Guinness is moving!" You look at my glass, however, and say, "Man, atheism is really rat poison to the intellect! Your Guinness isn't moving; it's perfectly still."

Is it both possible that my Guinness is moving and that my Guinness is not moving? Of course it is!

I could respond to your skepticism, "Isn't this continent drifting, the earth rotating and revolving, our solar system spinning in a pinwheel galaxy, and our galaxy speeding away from others in the universe? How can you say my Guinness isn't moving?!"

At the same time, you could have said, "Look EB, there is a spot on the bar next to your glass and we can tell by this ruler that your glass is neither moving towards that spot nor away from it. Your glass is stationary."

Both contradictory statements are correct, but are relative to specific spatio-temporal frameworks. From certain spatio-temporal frameworks, my Guinness is stationary; from others, it is moving. The "fact" of the motion of my Guinness is relative to the spatio-temporal framework that is adopted. There is no one, "true" spatio-temporal framework that truly determines whether something is "really" moving or not, there are only different frameworks from which to judge.

But though my Guinness' motion is relative, it is still "objective." You would certainly admit the validity of my statement that my Guinness is moving from any of the other spatio-temporal frameworks that I mentioned as justification. I would certainly admit the validity of your statement from the spatio-temporal framework that you mention. Both statements are correct, but are so relative to specific spatio-temporal frameworks.

Now, what if the same could be said of moral judgments? What if I could say objectively that it is morally wrong of P to D (I'm stealing all of this from Princeton's Gilbert Harman if you are wondering), but had to qualify my statement that it was morally wrong according to a specific moral framework? My judgment would be objective, but not universal.

If morality is not universal, though, must I accept everyone's moral judgments as equally valid? Of course not. For one thing, it is certainly possible that someone makes a moral judgment that does not fit the moral framework they use to justify it [Just like it would be possible for someone to say that something is stationary from a framework in which that judgment is inconsistent].

Secondly, acknowledging that a belief may be justified by reference to another moral framework does not mean that I have to abandon my own moral framework. For example, I believe that it is morally wrong to rape someone. If I were to happen upon a man trying to rape a woman, my moral framework demands that I do whatever action is permissible according to that framework to prevent that action from taking place. I may acknowledge that the action is permissible according to the rapist's moral framework, but that does not mean that I must ignore what is demanded by my own moral framework.

Moral relativism, then, does not necessarily lead to moral nihilism.

Anyone familiar with Foucault's work on power structures will know that, if he is correct, social ideas and morality are shaped by power. There is nothing called "madness" out in the world. One cannot catch "madness" in a bucket and paint it pink. It is an idea that must be defined. Originally, the church and the family were the primary power structures that made this definition. The church needed a way to distinguish between God's directions to his people through the Holy Spirit and the babblings of a madman. People that had certain heretical "visions" and "promptings" from God were considered "mad." Now, it is the physicians who define these kind of terms. Whatever the age, though, power is the driver behind these definitions.

In the case of morality, then, power will be the stabilizing (or destabilizing) force behind societal morality. Obviously, that does not mean that one must accept society's morality (both the Christians here and myself reject our current society's morality, but for drastically different reasons). For example, though most of current, American society opposes same-sex marriage, I adamantly support it. I do not have to accept the majority opinion even if I acknowledge that that opinion is justified by reference to a certain moral framework. I can exert my power (however limited it is) to try to change societal opinion. I can also point out that denying homosexual couples marriage is inconsistent with other, primary societal values like equal treatment under the law.

Just like one can make objective statements about motion even though the statements are relative to spatio-temporal frameworks, so I can make objective statements about morality that are relative to specific moral frameworks. So, contrary to Bahnsen's argument, I can be outraged by the Holocaust and not have a universal morality to do so. Does someone else have to agree with my outrage? Certainly not, but I will exert every power available to me via my moral framework (which excludes violence) to make others see things my way. Morality, like every idea (according to Foucault) is a power struggle.


I have, also, expressed my willingness to be convinced of the truth of Christianity in such a way that circumvents the Christian charge that the unregenerate will not accept proof of god's existence because they do want to "continue in their sin."

I wrote:
But don't read this to mean that I refuse to be convinced of the "truth" of Christianity. If it can be proven that Christianity is true, I'll shout it from the roof tops.

My sermon title, however, would be, "There is a Real Son of a Bitch in Charge of This Universe; Run for Your Lives!"


In other words, I am saying that I don't need to not believe in a god to "continue in my sin." I would rebel against most notions of a god even if I believed that god existed. My "rebellion," then, need not stop me from accepting rational arguments.

So, I believe that I have said enough. It's time for the Christians to speak up. It's time for all of you to express some positive reason for me to believe in your god.

I've done what you asked of me. You have offered no challenge to my theories of logic and morality.

Now, return the favor. Give me your arguments for why your god exists.

February 22, 2006

Would I Ever Follow the Christian God Again?

In the comments section of Matthew's introductory post, Matthew wrote:
I would ask that you not think that if all of freethinking skepticism was in error and that the Bible was shown to be inerrant and inspired that I would become a Christian. I find the Christian faith to be almost deathly repugnant these days and I would rather take my own life than let the Christian deity have it.

In response, albert wrote:
"In other words he would reject, rebel against,ignore etc 'reality'."

Let's say that you are a Christian and this strange guy comes into your town and tells you that God wants you to go and kill your atheistic neighbor, his wife, 9-year-old son, 3-year-old daughter, bunny rabbit, cat, and 3 dogs.


Let's say that you were skeptical, but then proved absolutely that it was, in fact, God ordering you to do this (For you cessationists, let's just assume this is possible just as it was "back in the day"). I don't know how you proved it, but you did beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Would you obey that command of God that you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt to be true?

Personally, I would tell God to go fuck himself and damn me to hell. I would not do something so blatantly evil just because a god told me to (just like I wouldn't go kill a bunch of Iraqis just because a president told me to).

I think this is what Matthew is saying (and if he isn't, then I am saying it). I (we?) find Christianity so morally reprehensible (e.g. it degrades women, robs homosexuals of the joy of their lover, celebrates murder for offenses, etc.), that I would not follow it even if I knew it was the case.

But don't read this to mean that I refuse to be convinced of the "truth" of Christianity. If it can be proven that Christianity is true, I'll shout it from the roof tops.

My sermon title, however, would be, "There is a Real Son of a Bitch in Charge of This Universe; Run for Your Lives!"

And, yes, this sounds Romans 1-ish, but why? Is it because Paul really knew the heart of unbelievers or is it because my reaction is how most people would react (and did react) to such an evil idea of God, and Paul only "predicted" how people should act when confronted by this Christian god? I think Paul probably heard moral people everywhere reject this vile picture of a god, and then wrote his little letter so that it sounded like their rejection was simply the mark of an unregenerate person, not the only morally good decision a person could make when faced with that kind of god. Chicken or egg? "Prediction" or right reaction?

So, to answer my question above, "No, I would not worship the Christian God I believe is presented in the Bible even if I knew he truly existed." I could believe he existed, but I would not follow him. Or, if I were shown that my interpretation of the Christian God is wrong and that he is actually a good being AND that he actually existed AND that there is a good reason that the world is in the messed up state that it is in, then I would have no problem worshipping that God. I would re-join the ministry!

As it stands, however, I find the Christian God morally reprehensible and the state of the world such that it does not appear to be in the hands of any powerful, wise god. I would gladly accept any evidence to the contrary.

Religious/Moral Pluralism and The Outsider Test

I’ve written about the Dependency Thesis (DT) before, when speaking of The Outsider Test . The DT is well known among ethicists as one of two legs supporting cultural relativism. The DT states “morality is not a matter of independent rational judgment but is causally dependent on cultural conditions.” The DT is actually the second leg supporting cultural relativism. The first leg is known as the Diversity Thesis (DV) that states “moral practices and beliefs do in fact vary from culture to culture and at different times in history.” Once someone acknowledges the first leg (DV), then the second leg (DT) offers a reason for the diversity we find around the globe.


I’m arguing pretty much the same things are true with regard to religious and metaphysical beliefs, primarily because they are related to moral beliefs in at least three ways: 1) Anthropologists have discovered that they both have geographical locations, for the most part. That is, just like you find regions where the overwhelming majority of people are Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim and Christian, you will also find people who are chauvinistic, in favor of capital punishment, against polygamy, who disregard human freedom and rights for all, and so forth. Even in a democracy, where people share the same views about freedom and human rights for all, people still have divergent views. But in a democracy we find little cultural pockets of people who do share the same religious and ethical views, like the Jews in Skokie, IL, the Amish in Northeastern Indiana, and so forth. 2) There are no empirical tests to finally decide between moralities, and there are no empirical tests to finally decide between religious viewpoints. Since this is the case, social, political and cultural factors will play a much stronger role in what people believe about such things than anything else. 3) There are people who believe that one’s morality is derived from their religious viewpoint. That is, morality is dependent upon one’s religion. While I don’t think this holds true in most religions, it certainly does hold true in some of them.

Here are some randomly chosen moral and religious beliefs that the odds are very strong we would have adopted them if we were those people: Had we lived in the ancient past in Babylonia, and the Greco-Roman worlds, we would have been very superstitious and polytheistic. In the ancient world we would have sought God’s guidance through divination, and appeased his wrath with barbaric blood sacrifices. Like Plato and throughout the Middle Ages, we would have been opposed to democracy and preferred instead the divine rights of kings. If we were a first century Christian we would believe God sent illnesses and disasters to discipline and punish people for their sins, while for the first 900 years we would have believed in the Ransom theory of atonement. We would see virtually nothing wrong with killing witches, persecuting people of different faiths, torturing heretics, and conquering Jerusalem from the infidels in the Crusades.

Along with Andrew Jackson we would have believed in Manifest Destiny and the land grabbing of westward expansion into Native American territories, because it was our God given mandate. Up until the beginning of the 18th century we would have believed that women were intellectually inferior to men, and consequently, we would not allow them to become educated like men. Like Thomas Jefferson and most Americans we would have thought this about black people as well, that they were intellectually inferior to whites, while if we were born in the South we would have justified slavery from the Bible.

If we were born black in today’s world we would still to this day believe that O.J. Simpson is not guilty. If we were born in modern Palestine we would hate the Jews, and probably want to kill them all. If we were born in France we would have opposed the Iraq war. If we were born into a Democratic family in the 80’s we would hate Bush and have a strong tendency to believe anything negative about him.
Such beliefs based upon cultural conditions can be duplicated into a long lengthy list of moral and religious beliefs we would have had if we were born in a different time and place.

One objection to both the DV and DT theses is that even if moral and religious beliefs were 100% correlated with the “accidents of birth” (when and where we were born), this would not have anything to do with whether a person's particular religious belief is true, therefore making it possible that Christianity is true anyway. To this I answer, yes, this is possible. After all, someone can be right if for no other reason than that she just got lucky. But how do you rationally justify such luck?

I'm sure that the whole reason Christians object to what I'm saying is because they must do so in order to believe their faith is correct. They simply will not acknowledge the implications of what the sum total of geographical, demographical, historical and cultural indications tell us about what we believe based upon the “accidents of history.” With all of this evidence they don't merely want to maintain that their beliefs could be true, despite the “accidents of history," they want to claim that their particular belief is true.

Then those who make this objection will merely challenge me to show why their faith is false, as if to show that they have reasons that transcend the cultural conditions that gave rise to their faith in the first place. Well, I can do this, and I am doing so here, one piece at a time. But I can imagine a Muslim, a Jew, a liberal Catholic or a Hindu issuing that same challenge. Then what?

Some may object that they wouldn’t have adopted certain of these beliefs, like the inferior intellectual nature of women and blacks, and so forth. Really now? That reveals such an arrogant ignorance, and has been dubbed as chronological snobbery, that it’s hard for me to know how to properly respond. The main reason someone might maintain they wouldn’t have been swayed by the false and hurtful cultural ideas of the past is that they want to maintain that what they believe today is not swayed by cultural factors much at all. But what they believe today is equally swayed by cultural factors, such as OJ Simpson’s guilt or innocence based to a great extent on whether or not they are a Black persons in America. It’s pretty obvious that cultural conditions still heavily sway us in what we believe.

Another objection has been stated like this: “Did Loftus' cultural conditions 'determine' his beliefs? If so, he has no reason to think they are true. If not, then he thinks he can transcend culture, but he doesn't think a Christian can transcend culture.”

A person could still accept what I’m arguing for here and not be a moral or religious relativist. In fact, a person can deny relativism and still claim that she doesn’t know much of anything else is true except that relativism is false. That is, someone could deny relativism and claim this is the only thing she knows to be objectively true. Another person could simply say that religious and moral relativism is false in the end, but she could also believe that to rise above the circumstances of our times is extremely difficult to do, and that only a very few people in every generation have done it. This may actually be the case, if we grant that there is objective truth. But if so, then what becomes of the Christian claim to truth in a world overwhelmingly dominated by religious beliefs, which are almost entirely, but not completely dependent on the “accidents of history”?

Of course, if it is the case that “the accidents of history” completely determines our beliefs in those areas where there is no empirical test to decide between them, then what exactly wrong in admitting this? Let’s say this is the case, i.e., that our moral and religious beliefs are completely determined by when and where we are born, including atheism. What would be the basis of this belief?: “The accidents of history.” If I believed this, then it still doesn’t follow that what I believe is false. I may be lucky and just happened to get it right. If so, I'd be just like the Christian who, if right, is right because of luck. And if it's luck that causes us to get it right, then we both agree that what we believe we do so based upon when and where we're born. But one major difference between us is that I don't believe I'll go to hell if I am unlucky and get it wrong because of when and where I was born.

And let's say that "the accidents of history" made me the atheist that I am today. So what? If true, this does not undercut what I'm saying at all--it supports it in several ways. I'm saying that cultural conditions have an extremely strong influence on us to believe certain moral and religious beliefs that cannot be empirically tested. If I am an atheist because of these cultural conditions, then I'm right that cultural conditions lead us to believe these things after all. And while I might be wrong about what I don't believe, such an admission doesn't undercut the main reason for The Outsider Test in the first place.

The best that could result from this admission is agnosticism. But this doesn’t grant the believer any ground. For to be agnostic about my agnosticism would again be admitting the basis for testing any moral or religious belief system, and that is to be agnostic, or skeptical, all over again, which once again, is what I mean by The Outsider Test, and once again something I'm asking of those who claim to know and to believe certain things that cannot be tested empirically. So you see, I don't object to my own skepticism. I'm willing to be skeptical of my skepticism. But it's sort of redundant, from my perspective, and so it merely reinforces itself. Besides, I would be quite content to be an agnostic; since my atheism isn't something I am that confident about. I'm merely asking, given the proliferation of religions and the fact that these kinds of beliefs are largely, if not totally dependent on the accidents of birth, why Christians aren't willing to test their beliefs with a healthy measure of skepticism?

Try this thought experiment on for size: There is no God, this universe happened by chance, and what we believe about morality and religion is all based upon the “accidents of history.” Let’s assume this is all true, that is, this is what actually happened and correctly describes the state of affairs we live in as social and cultural animals. If this happened as described, then it did, whether we can claim to know this truth outside cultural factors that determine our beliefs or not. But if it did happen, then there is nothing inconsistent with claiming both that what we believe is based entirely upon our individual cultural experiences, and also that this is the actual state of affairs.

As a matter of fact, if our religious beliefs are tied to our cultural upbringings, then what we find around the globe and throughout history is exactly what we should expect to find if this universe happened by chance.

Another objection is that there are exceptions to this belief forming explanation of mine. There are people in every generation who rejected the dominant moral and religious views of their cultures. So I am asked to explain why there are exceptions, if there are any. But Christians are being asked to explain why there is the rule in the first place, that is, why do religious and moral beliefs dominate in specific geographical areas and during specific time periods? Why is that?

Based on these things I'm merely saying we should initially treat all religious and moral beliefs with a healthy measure of skepticism...but wait...skepticism leads to agnosticism and atheism. Isn't that odd? But I have some very good initial reasons to be skeptical, that's all I'm saying.

The bottom line. An atheist denies every god that is denied by any one particular religion, plus that one. It's like an atheist walking into a room filled with hundreds of people arguing and fighting with each other and threatening each other with divine disasters and afterlife punishments and imposing their morality upon societies, if the others don't agree. He listens and watches for a while and then turns and walks away, rejecting them all. After all, they deny each of the other faiths in the room, so he can just deny one more than the rest of them do.

How can the atheist be skeptical of his non-belief? To do that would be to basically choose one of the faiths represented by one of the people in that room. But when he listens to all of the rest of the other people debunking any particular faith he might choose, he just cannot bring himself to believe that faith either, so he remains outside of them all, choosing instead to reject them all rather than to believe in any of them.

But is this circular, that I have merely chosen a different religious faith? Maybe it is in some sense, although about this it would have to be shown, but it definitely is not viciously circular. For I have very good initial grounds for starting out with skepticism in the first place, given the DV and the DT. In the end, atheism is a denial of all religious beliefs, customs, rituals, traditions, claims of miracles, Scriptures, priesthoods, and doctrines.

February 21, 2006

Another Infidel!

Hey Everyone!

I wanted to thank John Loftus for inviting me to post here. I consider it an honor to be a part of this group. I got into contact with John through Ed Babinski. I have had a good exchange with Ed these past several days since the time he has seen my work in a discussion with the infamous "JP Holding". I am pleased that I have had friendly correspondence with Ed and John. John gave me an indication that he liked what I have written on a Christian discussion forum we both frequent. I am pleased to be acquainted with John considering that he's a seminary graduate and a former student of the Christian philosopher William Lane Craig. I hope to contribute to this blog and I look forward to good, fruitful discussions with our team here! I hope to contribute essays I am working on for review and I even have a website in the planning stages of assembly.


A bit about me. I am nearly 28 years old and I am an atheist. I tried being a Christian for 10 years until a combination of intellectual and emotional skepticism did my faith in. I am the son of an ordained fundamentalist/Evangelical minister. I, too, considered going into the ministry and becoming an apologist when I was a teenager. I was a former YEC, then an OEC, and finally a theistic evolutionist. I credit freethought publications that finally got me to see that the Bible was errant. I ought to post my full deconversion story sometime (and update it in the process!)

I am currently a university student majoring in history with an emphasis in ancient , Greco-Roman classical history. I hope to study history and biblical criticism in graduate school. I'd like to eventually become a Bible scholar so I can help educate others about biblical criticism and work as an educator to help explode fundamentalist myths about the Bible such as inerrancy. I also hope to contribute deeply to the anti-apologetics literature and hope to help inform skeptics and Christians having doubts about their faith and others who aren't sure what to think.

Proud to be a contributor...

Matthew J Green

For Matthew's deconversion story see here.

February 20, 2006

A Call for Civility

John and I are catching a lot of crap for taking "exception to 'personal attacks,'" in these blog entries.

I thought I would try to explain my philosophy of blogging about this stuff so that everyone would understand the kind of conversations I would like to have on these issues.


First, I just love ideas. I love hearing other people's opinions and justifications for their beliefs. I especially love when those opinions are different than my own. Seeing something from someone else's perspective allows me to learn about my own perspective. It makes me question why I think the way that I think about these issues.

In short, I blog to learn more about my own beliefs.

Second, I don't believe there is much "at stake" in these conversations. I believe that we are all collections of atoms that stick together for a while and, then, disperse. I don't believe that there is some grand purpose for existence. None of these conversations will result in anything of universal significance.

Why do I bother, then? Simply because I enjoy the process. This is the only life I have to live, and I want to enjoy it. One of my greatest joys is challenging myself and my beliefs.

For me, then, there is very little at stake. I'm participating just because I've got some time to kill.

I have to believe the same is true for most reformed believers. Your god is sovereign; he will save who he wants, he will damn who he wants. I am a little child sitting on his lap and slapping his faith. I can do nothing to harm him or his elect. You are assured of your victory, so it seems there should be no reason for you to get excited or upset. Your arguments, no matter how good, cannot "save" me; only your god can do that. No soul is in danger. The elect will come to your god, the damned will not.

Third, I have a very full life. I'm involved in a lot of things. I have familial obligations, friendships to maintain, a job to give my best to, and school on top of everything else. I simply don't have time for anything that gets me riled up.

Which brings me to my fourth point. I have thin skin. When someone says that I am "ignorant" of something, I don't take it according to its "technical definition"--lack of knowledge in an area. I consider it to be an insult. I have no problem with someone saying, "The way you are expressing your idea of [insert idea] is not what I mean by it or what I read others to mean by it." Sure, it takes a lot more words, but it seems more civil to me.

Fifth, I prefer to engage in talks in which both parties assume certain characteristics of the other party. In fact, I believe it is necessary to assume certain characteristics of the other party in order to have a reasonable debate. Some of those characteristics are: (a) that both parties are intelligent people that have something important to say, (b) that both parties are being honest with the other, (c) that neither party enjoys being made to look stupid, (d) that both parties deserve common courtesy and respect.

I believe these are vital commitments to any reasonable debate. The other day in a dialogue with steve from Triablogue, he wrote, "Quoting you assumes a measure of candor which is absent from your sophistry. You prefer to trade in innuendo." Ignoring my explicit statements to the contrary, steve insisted that I was being dishonest in my attempts to converse with him.

Rational conversation cannot proceed from this point. Someone commenting on that post asked, ". . . why not try to defend the fact that you are neither [a liar or deceiver]?"

How can I? If it is the operating assumption that I am a liar because "my father, the devil" is "the father of lies" (John 8:44), then any "defense" that I give of myself is also a lie.

If there is no trust, there can be no rational dialogue.

I simply don't have any desire to be personally attacked for my beliefs.

Sixth, I don't like the "debate as war" metaphor. I don't like to think in terms of "winning" a debate, or coming up with a debate "strategy," or having "opponents." I prefer to think of debate as an act of clarification. It helps me think through my own beliefs better. I don't want to be "at war" with any of the people that post here. I just want to use their ideas to sharpen my own and, hopefully, they find the conversation beneficial as well.

So, this is my position on blogging here. I would love to engage in clear, challenging, dispassionate dialogue with people who do not share my beliefs. I do not want to be "at war" with anyone. I do not want to "win" the debate (it's pointless anyway, even if I "win" an exchange with one Christian doesn't mean that I've disproven the Christian faith anymore than "winning" an argument with me means that someone has disproven atheism; our worldviews are more than one individual). I don't want to be called names (like I said, even the word "ignorant" hurts my feelings) or attacked personally.

I wrap up with two biblical passages that I hope we can all agree follow:

1) Colossians 4:6--"Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person."

2) 1 Corinthians 13:4-8a (emphasis added)--Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. . ."

From an Atheist's Perspective

I have to say that it's difficult to side with either party in the Outsider Test debate going on here.

On the one hand, I understand the presuppositionalists' refusal to take part. They firmly believe that Christianity is the truth, that their god created this world and is the king over all of it. It would almost be an act of unfaithfulness to deny their god's sovereignty and adopt a perspective that assumes the very opposite of their faith. The Outsider Test asks them to act as if their god does not exist, something that they see as unfaithful.


At the same time, though, I'm with John on this one. From the atheist's perspective, it seems too coincidental that religions just happen to dominate certain geographic locations and culture.

Consider this map of world religions found here:


World Religions Map

Here's the key enlarged a bit in case it is too small in the picture:


Map Key

Now, from an atheist's perspective, it certainly seems reasonable to assume that, generally speaking, people adopt a religion because it is part of the culture of the geographic region they are from. In India, most people are Hindu. In the Middle East, most people are Muslim (though, some of the Christians here have made a good point that this is a state-imposed religion in much of the Middle East; I still think that it might be a stretch to assume that most Muslims in the Middle east only believe from coercion). In South America, most people are Roman Catholic. In the US, there is a close split between Roman Catholics and Protestants, but even these are geographically located.

I think that Christians, here, might even agree with this partially except in regards to their own Christianity. It doesn't seem unreasonable for a Christian to also assume that a person is Hindu because they grew up in a country of Hindus. I'm sure the reformed among us would say that these people have rejected the Christian god because they love their sin and that they have adopted a religion only to justify their rebellion, but it still seems reasonable to conclude that they adopted that particular religion because it was the popular religion of that geographic location.

I know that most Christians, here, believe atheism is a religion and we hold it like any other religious person holds their faith. I know that the Christians, here, believe that we are only atheists because we love our sin and we want to deny the Christian god's sovereignty over us. But I have to say, as honestly as I can, that it doesn't feel that way to me.

I feel that I am "unaffiliated" when it comes to religion. I feel that I am not a Christian because there is simply no good reason to believe and a lot of reasons not to believe. My moral life since leaving my faith is virtually unchanged. I have been faithful to my wife. I have a job that most people would not work that allows me to help poor, racial minorities in an infamously difficult inner-city setting. I have very close friends (all of whom are Christians, by the way--three career missionaries, two seminary students, one seminary graduate (i.e. aside from the career missionaries who are also seminary graduates)), a good family (who are also all Christian), etc.

My point is that it feels to me that, because I am unaffiliated, I am being "courted" by the various religions. The Muslims are recommending Islam, the Hindus are pushing Hinduism, the Christians are offering Christianity (in all of its various forms). . . Each of these groups say that theirs is the only "true" religion. I look at the map above, though, and I wonder if that same person would be arguing for a different religion if they had been born in a different place in the world.

In other words, it is hard not to dismiss a religious person's claim that their religion is the truth when it certainly seems, from my point of view, that that same person would be pushing another religion had they been born in a different part of the world.

In my post on presuppositionalism, I discussed relative, but objective, judgments regarding motion. I said that contradictory statements about motion can both be true given certain spatio-temporal frameworks. I can both say that my Guinness is moving and that my Guinness is not moving understanding that one statement belongs to one spatio-temporal framework and the other belongs to another one. I imagined that no one would really disagree with this, that it is easy to see the truth of a statement from a particular framework.

So, I'm willing to admit that, from the perspective of the Christian, the Outsider Test is an unacceptable act of unfaithfulness to their god. It asks them to reject the one they feel is the rightful ruler of the universe. I understand that (though, I would argue that if your god is truly a god, then he should probably be able to hold up under critical examination).

But can the Christians, here, not also admit that, from our point of view, it is certainly suspicious that world religions dominate geographically and that it is not unreasonable for us to conclude that religions are products of culture and geography, not products of "truth" and "falsehood"?

February 19, 2006

The Outsider Test is Hypothetical....

Earlier I proposed an Outsider Test here for all metaphysical and religious commitments.

Let me clarify one misconception about this proposed test based on the following sets of forseen criticisms:


It's impossible to actually test every metaphysical commitment at the same time, since we can never be outsiders to everything. Furthermore, anytime we do test another belief system we do so from inside a different belief system which we are assuming and not at that precise moment testing. That is, we always operate from the inside of some kind of control belief or system. So the objection is that a person can hardly be blamed for not doing something that is impossible to do.


But I never said we could actually test our metaphysical commitments this way. It's a hypothetical test. Scientists and especially philosophers imagine hypothetical thought experiments all of the time.

So let's call this a hypothetical thought experimental test.

What lessons can we learn from it?

Answer that for me, and you'll know what I have been getting at.

My Conversion/Deconversion Story

In my book Why I Rejected Christianity: A Former Apologist Explains I’ve written 40 pages about my conversion to Christianity, my deconversion away from Christianity, what I believe now, and why. To read the complete story of my conversion/deconversion and what I believe today you can purchase the book here.

But let me offer the Cliff Notes version:

I grew up being taught to believe in the Christian faith. In fact, until I converted at the age of 18 I never remember encountering anyone who didn’t believe. I just thought everyone around me believed. So when I found myself down on my luck at the age of 18 there was no one else I knew to turn to but Jesus, and I did.


I had a dramatic conversion as an 18 year old. I had dropped out of High School, and was arrested six different times for offenses like running away, theft, and battery. I had also hitchhiked around the country with a friend. I was heavily into drugs, alcohol, sex, fast cars, and the party scene.

But one night I gave myself over to this Jesus in repentance and faith in response to what I believed at that time was his substitutionary death on the cross for my sins. At that time I claimed to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, and a new calling to spread God's news of salvation to anyone who will believe.

And my life radically changed. Here’s how I later described my new life and new sense of mission in a newspaper devotional column that area ministers took turns writing every week: “I can identify with the apostle Paul who said, ‘But by the grace of God I am what I am’ (I Cor.15:10). I knew I needed help, but no one could break through to me, until I turned my life over to Jesus. Only he could save me. Only he could change me. I have totally changed due to the grace of God. When I look back on those years, it’s like I’m talking about someone else. Without God I shudder where I would be today. Now, I gladly preach the message that God can change you too. Believe it. It happened in my life. Believe that it can happen to your rebellious teenager. Believe it because we serve a miracle-working God who answers prayer, and who intervenes on our behalf.” Then I ended the devotional with these words: “From out of my own personal experience my heart bleeds for the victims in our society, for I know what it’s like to be a victim and a victimizer. That’s why I fight for the unborn, the poor and homeless, those victimized by pornography, but especially for those trapped in sin. People need the Lord.” [Herald Republican, August 10, 1990].

With such a passion for my purportedly new relationship with God-in-Christ, I began to understand my faith and to minister it. I graduated from Great Lakes Christian (Bible) College, Lansing Michigan, in 1977. Afterward I became the Associate Minister in Kalkaska, MI, for two years. Then I attended Lincoln Christian Seminary (LCS), Lincoln, IL, and graduated in 1982 with M.A. and M.Div. degrees, under the mentoring of Dr. James D. Strauss. While at LCS I was the founding editor for the now defunct apologetical quarterly, A Journal For Christian Studies. After LCS I attended Trinity Evangelical Divinity School (TEDS), and graduated in 1985 with a Th.M degree, under the mentoring of Dr. William Lane Craig, considered by many to be the foremost defender of the empty tomb of Jesus and his bodily resurrection from the grave. I also took classes at Marquette University in a Ph.D. program with a double major in Philosophy and Ethics, but I didn’t finish because I lacked the needed funds to stay in school and because I wanted to be close to my Dad who was dying of cancer.

From 1987 to 1990 I was the Senior Minister of the Angola Christian Church, Angola, Indiana. I served in the Steuben County Ministerial Association, and for a year I was its President. Before that I had several ministries in Michigan, Wisconsin and Illinois. I was in the ministry for about fourteen years, or so. After leaving the church, I’ve stayed in Angola, and now I own my own business here.

I was a Christian apologist with several master’s degrees set for the express purpose of defending Christianity from intellectual attacks. I was not afraid of any idea, because I was convinced that Christianity was true and could withstand all attacks. I have taught both apologetical and philosophical classes for a few different Christian and secular colleges. I was in the “Who’s Who Among America’s Best Teachers” in 1996.

I knew most of the arguments against Christianity, and as a philosophy instructor in a secular college I could debate both sides of most any argument. As a philosophy instructor, in many ways, I am a purveyor of doubt. Too many people have a superficial faith handed down from their parents. As a teacher my goal is to cause them to doubt much of what they believe, be it atheist or believer, or in between. Doing so is what’s needed for them to develop a deeper faith, and it allows them to see points of view they’ve never considered before, thus making them more tolerant of other people’s beliefs. One thing that I must do as a philosophy instructor is to eliminate from my students a smug, simplistic, and dogmatic belief system. Such beliefs are childlike and unbecoming of the adults they should become. Anyway, I have told people time and time again that I could teach philosophy until I was blue in the face so long as I knew I had a loving, caring, and faithful Christian community to fall back on after my class is over. When that fell through the floor, the doubts crept in my life.

There are three major things that happened in my life that changed my thinking. They all happened in the space of about five years, from 1991-1996. These are the three things that changed my thinking: 1) A major crisis, 2) plus information, 3) minus a sense of a loving, caring, Christian community. For me it was an assault of major proportions that if I still believed in the devil would say it was orchestrated by the legions of hell.

Let me just briefly mention the information that changed my mind. I carried on a correspondence debate with my cousin who was a Lieutenant in the Air Force (now a Colonel) and teaches Bio-Chemistry at a base in Colorado. I handed him a book arguing for creation over evolution and asked him to look at it and let me know what he thought of it. After several months he wrote me a long letter and sent me a box full of articles and books on the subject. Some of them were much too technical for me to understand, but I tried to read them. While he didn’t convince me of much at the time, he did convince me of one solid truth: the universe is as old as scientists say it is, and the consensus is that it is 12-15 billion years old.

Now that by itself isn’t too harmful of an idea to Christian thinking. But two corollaries of that idea started me down the road to being the honest doubter I am today. The first is that in Genesis chapter 1 we see that the earth existed before the sun, moon, and stars, which were all created on the fourth day. This doesn’t square with astronomy. So I began looking at the first chapters of Genesis, and as my thinking developed over time I came to the conclusion that those chapters are folk literature—myth. You can see my studies on this later in this book.

The second corollary is this: if God took so long to create the universe, then why would he all of a sudden snap his fingers, so to speak, and create human beings? If time is not a factor with God when he created the universe, then why should time be a factor when it came to creating human beings? If God took his time to create the universe then why wouldn’t he also create living creatures with greater complexity during the same length of time? In other words, what reason can be given for the different ways God created? Is this the same God? Why did it take God so long to create the stuff of the universe, which is less valuable and presumably less complex to create, than it did to create the most valuable and highly complex creatures to inhabit that universe? Astronomy describes the long process of star, planet, and galaxy formation. It then becomes uncharacteristic of God to do otherwise with human beings. I concluded that God created human beings by the same long process he created the universe as a whole, if he created us at all.

I carried on a correspondence with Dr. Virgil Warren for about 6 months, who was a professor at Manhattan Christian College, Manhattan, Kansas. I was asking him what he thought about the issues raised by the age of the universe. In a final letter to him on March 19, 1994 I wrote: “My problem is that I earnestly desire the truth whatever the result. I do not concern myself with the results just yet, although I know I’ll have to face them sometime. Right now I just want to make sense of it all, results be what they may. When I consider the possible results, they scare me, but that’s only because they are unfamiliar to me. This is natural. The real question for me right now is the truth question. If the answers upset other cherished beliefs then I’ll have to re-examine my answers, and perhaps revise them in order to maintain those cherished beliefs. On the other hand, my answers might cause me to give up on some of these cherished beliefs—there’s no way to tell at this point which way I’ll go. But as time permits I am committed to finding answers that produce the least amount of tension among the things I believe.”

Nearly two years later and I came to deny the Christian faith. There were just too many individual problems that I had to balance like spinning plates on sticks in order to keep my faith. At some point they just all came crashing down.

I personally think more than anything else, it was a deeper knowledge that caused me to leave the faith. But it was my faith that inspired me to gain that knowledge in the first place. I was so sure and so confident in my faith that I didn't believe I could learn anything that would ever cause me to doubt my faith. I believed I served a God of reason, so I was not going to be afraid of any argument to the contrary. And with this assurance I sought to understand and argue against those who would debunk my faith.

It is quite ironic, really. I started with faith. That faith inspired me to understand. With more understanding, my faith increased to the point where I was confident no argument could stand up against my faith. So I proceeded to gain more and more knowledge for the express purpose of debunking the skeptics. But in so doing I finally realized that the arguments on behalf of the Christian faith were simply not there. The skeptics were right all along. Even though everything I studied was done from the presumption of faith, and in the service of the faith, my studies ended my faith.

My doubts were simmering these last few years. I didn't think much about them. But when Mel Gibson's movie “The Passion of the Christ” came out, it made me think about them again, intensely. Plus, while I was describing in class how, with Arthur Peacocke, I believe God could've used chance as a radar beam searching the possibilities for the direction of creation, one of my students laughed at the thought. It was these last two things that have put me on course to finally come out of the closet and tell what I think. I have always had reasons for what I believed. Only recently have I begun sharing my doubts. I want people to know that I have thought through answers for the way I life my life.

While the things I have just written might explain to some degree why my thinking has changed, I want to stress the fact that my thinking has indeed changed. You cannot explain away my present doubts by pointing to bad experiences in my life. They may be what provoked my thinking, but they don’t explain my thoughts. I am an atheist regardless of the experiences that led up to my present way of thinking. In talking with me you will have to deal with my arguments. Otherwise, I could point to your past experiences and explain your beliefs away as a product of what you have experienced too! People believe and doubt for a wide variety of reasons, and that’s all there is to it.

Now there will be those who might say I chose my theology based on how I wanted to live my life. In other words, my ethics dictated my viewpoint. But the chronological historical truth is that first my theology changed, and then I started living my life differently. My theology of doubts began to dictate my personal ethics. I started to live my life in keeping with my new set of beliefs.

I tried as best as I could to be a faithful Christian, and good minister. I accepted God’s grace, and it radically changed my life when I was a teenager, as you have read. After being saved I wanted to show God how grateful I was for his gift of salvation by committing my life over to him with all I had. Even though I knew it was by grace that I had been saved, I almost always felt guilty that I wasn’t doing enough in response to God’s love. Whether it was spending time in prayer, evangelizing, reading the Bible, tithing, forgiving someone who had done me wrong, or whether it was struggling with temptations of lust, pride, selfishness and laziness, I almost always felt guilty. It may just be because I was so passionate about Christianity that this was the case, and so it just might be my particular temperament. But I never could understand how Christian people could come to church every Sunday but never get involved much in the Church’s programs, because that’s what believers should want to do. To be quite frank here, if Christians really believed that the non-Christian was going to hell, and that God loved them enough to send his Son to die for them on the cross, then how would they behave? How many true believers are in the churches today?

Today I am pretty much guilt free. That is, I have no guilt in regards to the Christian duties mentioned above. I am free of the need to do most of the things I felt I had to do because I was expressing my gratitude for what God had done. And yet, I am still grateful for my present life, even more so in many ways. I love life. I’m living life to the hilt, pretty much guilt free, primarily because my ethical standards aren’t as high. In fact, I believe the Christian ethical standards are simply impossible for anyone to measure up to. Think about it, according to Jesus I should feel guilty for not just what I do, but for what I think about, lusting, hating, coveting, etc. I’d like every person who reads this book to experience the freedom I have found. It is to you that I dedicate this book.

For more about me as a Christian Minister see Nostalgic Today.

Comment Policy

[Edited 2/20/11]

I'm leaving this post up but I have revised my comment policy. What you'll read below has been superseded by my new comment policy. A few things have been changed.

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Here at Debunking Christianity I welcome most anyone to comment on what is written. I like the challenge of educated discussions between educated people. I think educated people can disagree agreeably. Only people not fully exposed to alternative ways of thinking will claim their opponents are stupid merely because they disagree.

This blog is open to comments by anyone interested, provided: (1) the comments are civil in tone, (2) they speak directly to the issues discussed, (3) they are not spam-like sermons, or book length comments; (4) they don't monopolize the discussion or repeatedly offer ignorant off topic comments; and (5) they come from Blogger profiles that are make public. Comments posted by people whose profiles aren't made available are not allowed, sorry (although I might make an exception or two). They are equivalent to anonymous comments which I don't allow either. There are are several trolls and blog terrorists who visit here each week using different names who have already been banned. Some of them purport to be atheists who are not.

I reserve the right to ban anyone who regularly abuses this forum by willfully mischaracterizing what is said in order to belittle others, or by personally attacking any person, including myself. This also goes for ignorant comments. This is not a site for grade school level arguments. First finish High School, take a few college classes and then come back after doing so.

If your comments are not published you only have yourself to blame. You may try again. Consider posting a comment like writing a "Letter to the Editor" for the local newspaper where people who read what you write will know you. Editors of local newspapers do not publish every letter they receive for some of the same reasons I just mentioned. This Blog is an intelligent and friendly place to debate ideas in a mutually respectful environment. For a more detailed comment policy, I also adhere to this one.

Yes I am an atheist, and yes I think Christianity is wrong and needs debunked. But I still like testing my ideas against my former beliefs. Maybe I was wrong to leave Christianity in the first place? Of course, I no more think this than do Christians who participate here to test their own faith. But this is what we're all doing, admit it.

If Christianity is true then Christians should be able to argue that it is. Most likely they will learn to better defend their faith, since I can help them see things they wouldn't have considered before. And that's good, isn't it? So in some sense I'm doing them a favor.

If the Christian faith can withstand the skeptical arguments Christians will be better for it. If they lose their faith, then it wasn't worth having in the first place. Likewise, if what skeptics think is misguided, then show us where we are wrong. Christians will not change our minds by calling us names or demeaning us. In fact, every time they do, it only serves to reinforce why we left the Christian faith in the first place.

I oppose other religious belief systems too, especially militant Islam. I just know more about the Christian faith than the Muslim faith, being an ex-Christian, ex-minister and ex-apologist.

I'm sorry that many Christians may feel personally attacked by virtue of the fact that this Blog even exists. But I have no animosity toward Christian believers as people. In fact, I have close relationships with relatives, friends and neighbors who are Christians.

Reformed believers are assured of their victory, so it seems there should be no reason for them to get excited or upset. Their God is sovereign; he will save whom he wants, he will damn whom he wants. Their arguments, no matter how good, cannot "save" skeptics; only their God can do that. So no soul is in danger. The elect will come to their God, the damned will not.

I will respond to the posts I choose to respond to if I have the time. But please don’t assume that because I didn't respond to a post it means anything at all. I read all of the comments, even those on the archived posts of old.

When it comes to posts I disagree with, don't assume that if I haven’t responded I won’t, or if I don’t respond that I can’t, or if I can’t respond that my opponents are right. There are always people who agree with me who can answer the objections I haven't studied up on sufficiently. No one can claim to be an expert on all of the relevant issues between believers and non-believers.

Other than that, have some fun; learn something from each other, and disagree all you want to here at Debunking Christianity. But if you’re a Christian, be forewarned that your faith may just take a hit.

John W. Loftus