What is My Ideal Kind of God?
The good thing about Blogging is that you can just have a conversation without always quoting a bunch of scholarly authors. Here's an exchange I've had in the comments section to this post of mine [Edited somewhat].
One Wave asked me this:
"I'm wondering what your ideal God would do if the world He created went against the things He knew would be best."
I answered:
We're talking anout an omni-benelovent God, correct?
Then I would at least like him to have the same kind of love for his creatures as a mother does for her children.
Do not respond that God does this. He doesn't. Yes, parents punish their childen, although, with Parent Effectiveness Training, they do not need to spank or hit them. But the punishments are called "discipline," beause they are geared toward helping to teach their children how to behave. A good mother never punishes her children in any harsh manner at all simply because they deserve it. It's always to teach them to be better. No mother sends a proverbial hurricane because her child "swears" or says "no" to his momma.
Can you honestly tell me your omnibenelovent God is more loving than a good mother? Really?
Even humane governments do not pluck out a criminals eyes, or maim him for life, or starve him to death, or burn him alive, or decapitate his head. Even when it comes to capital punishment we demand that it's not done cruelly.
Then an anonymous person wrote:
Then I responded:
Yes, God is more loving then a good mother. God, the creator of the universe, died for my wrongdoings. There is no greater love than laying down ones life for a friend. However Jesus died before I knew him, and he even died for those who rejected him.
How good is love to only love those who love you?
Okay, anon, now tell me why my sins are such dreadful things that someone had to die for my sins?
Besides, there is no coherent understanding of exactly how Jesus' death on the cross helps us.
Furthermore, if God is omniscient then he should understand what sin is from our perspective, or, if he knew in advance that he just couldn't stomach our sins, he should never have created us knowing that he'd have to send an overwhelming majority to hell. Why do that when everything was already perfect for him such that he needed nothing, desired nothing, and had everything he wanted...everything...he lacked nothing. To say he just wanted to share his love isn't a satisfactory answer, since he would also know that to share his love he would also have to condemn a great majority of human beings to hell in the process. To say he wanted free willed creatures who freely love him isn't a satisfactory answer either, for then arises the difficulty of whether or not there will be sin and free will in heaven. If there isn't free will in heaven, then why bother creating us on earth? If there is, and God can also guarantee people won't sin, then why didn't he just create us in heaven in the first place? If there is free will and sin in heaven then why bother to die for us on earth?
84 comments:
There will be free will in heaven, but no sin. We will have new heavenly bodies, and will no longer be under the rules of this world. (sin)
God is so righteous, that we can't even be in his prescence because were are so unrighteous. That is why Jesus die, so that we are no longer under the old law, but that we can be saved through faith, and thus be Jesus' blood we can become righteous.
Yes, God created us to love him and to be with him and to enjoy each others' prescence. He gave humans free will, so that we are not robots, we were made in his likeness. With this free will, Adam and Eve doomed the rest of man kind with sin, and God loving us so much, decided to send his son to die for us so that we might be saved.
That should answer just about everyone of your speculations.
What I wrote here will help answer you.
This proves God's patience. You should be glad that he does not give immediate judgment to sin or else you and many others would be long gone, probably including me.
Yet there will come a time when is patience will end because the world has become so full of evil acts and sin, just like Noahs days, that his judgment will be poured out on earth.
However, this does not mean that God is not just, in that everyone will be rewarded according to what they have done here. And I think suffering for a few years and getting eternal life with joy so imaginable, that the bible says we will not even remember the ways of the old(earth), is far better than eternal life in hell.
Why are our sins such dreadful things? Why? Think about it from the perspective of a loving mother, or a God who knows everything about us. He knows what we are going to do, and what we do is overwhelmingly based upon how we were raised. Do you know anything at all about psychology? If not, take a class in it.
We are not bad people. Our genes and environment overwhelmingly teach us to be bad.
What chance does a kid in the ghetto have for being good when he's raised by a prostitute mom in apartment complex where he must fight to survive, join a gang, carry a gun, and where everyone he knows is doing drugs and having sex in a fatherless home and in a racist society?
I just think some of you Christians live in a box.
anonymous sez:
"There will be free will in heaven, but no sin. We will have new heavenly bodies, and will no longer be under the rules of this world."
The common argument goes that God gave us freewill, because without freewill, there would be no capacity for real love from humans (God did not create robots).
If what you say is true, then why didn't God give us freewill without the ability to sin when he first created us?? Best of both worlds - he gets our true love, and we get to go to heaven.
So how can there be freewill but no sin? We will have freewill just so long as our choice is righteous? Then we really have no freewill in heaven, do we?. But without freewill, God has us as robots pre-programmed to love him....
Oh.. my head is gonna explode.
anonymous continues:
"God is so righteous, that we can't even be in his prescence because were are so unrighteous."
You know, I have heard this my whole life, but I just don't see a Biblical basis for it. Do you ever wonder why Satan, supposedly the epitome of sin and unrighteousness, presents himself before God in the Book of Job? I certainly do. Sin didn't seem to bother God then, why should it bother him now?
We are naturally sinful. If you confined two kids from birth in a room together, gave a big blue truck to one, and a little red matchbox to the other, the kid with the little red car will be jealous and will want to play with the big blue truck.
We may give this little thought but jealously is sinful, and no matter what circumstances, we are all sinful.
"Created without the ability to sin"
What does that mean?? We were created without sin, weren't meant to sin, but both Adam and Eve failed.
Sure, those brought up in the Ghetto have the toughest life to be brought up in. However, people during there life will be presented with the choice of Jesus Christ and if not, such as those in the Amazon, God knows their hearts and knows if they will accept him or deny him when they here is word.
"So how can there be freewill but no sin?"
We were created with freewill and no sin.
This on Job 1:6
http://www.wrestedscriptures.com/b07satan/job1v6.html
To say that we are corrupted by society begs the question. How did society become corrupt? Society cannot be a corrupting influence until it becomes corruot.
Anonymous said:
"This on Job 1:6
http://www.wrestedscriptures.com/b07satan/job1v6.html"
If God's nature does not allow sin in his presence, why did he allow Satan in his his presence? I checked out the link. After reading lots of inferences about what it could not be, here is the answer it gave me to that problem:
"Although it can be shown what the passage does not mean, an attempt need not be made to identify the adversary. Scripture does not provide a positive identification, and although some evidence might be deduced, ultimately "the secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us". (Deut. 29:29). "
In other words - we don't know, just trust God.
John,
I really wish I could visit with you and some of the others and really get into these things more quickly. There are many points I would like to make but typing just isn't as fast as talking!
John: ..tell me why my sins are such dreadful things that someone had to die for my sins?
Me: What do you think God should have done when Adam and Eve disobeyed and what should he have done to the civilizations, like Abraham's in Ur, who practices child sacrifice and the temple prostitution of young girls?
John:
Furthermore, if God is omniscient then he should understand what sin is from our perspective, or, if he knew in advance that he just couldn't stomach our sins, he should never have created us knowing that he'd have to send an overwhelming majority to hell.
Me: What do you think it means when God says He is mindful that we are dust and that He wants us to reason with Him even when our sins are as scarlet? I think God can stomach our sins, but I don't like to look at vomit just because I can stomach it.
John: Why do that when everything was already perfect for him such that he needed nothing, desired nothing, and had everything he wanted...everything...he lacked nothing.
Me: Why would anyone want children? My life was pretty easy before I had children. I wouldn't say I had everything I wanted becuase I wanted children, but I didn't lack anything else.
John: To say he wanted free willed creatures who freely love him isn't a satisfactory answer either, for then arises the difficulty of whether or not there will be sin and free will in heaven. If there isn't free will in heaven, then why bother creating us on earth? If there is, and God can also guarantee people won't sin, then why didn't he just create us in heaven in the first place? If there is free will and sin in heaven then why bother to die for us on earth?
Me: Free will in heaven:
There wont be any temptation in heaven so there would be no reason to sin. The hearts of the people who are there will have chosen to be there and may even have persevered through tough circumstances here and remained faithful to God. By faithful, I don't mean perfect, I mean they continued to seek God and know Him more instead of giving up in difficult times. Others may have chosen moments before they died but God would know if a person's mind and heart are sincere.
I can only imagine that God did not create us in heaven in the first place because then we would automatically be overwhelmed by Him and not have formed a will and a character that would be similar to His.
The Bible is clear. It gives a reason why God permitted evil. God wanted to demonstrate His nature. He wanted to demonstrate His wrath and power. Without sin it would be impossible for a good God to exhibit His justice and power. The same is true for the other side of His nature. Wishing to exhibit His mercy and grace He permited sin for that purpose. There would be no need for mercy if evil did not exist. God determined to demonstrate His nature in this way for His own good reasons and for His Glory. People in heaven are confirmed in grace and their hearts will be completely transformed. They will do what they want to do. Love and worship their creator. Libertarian free will is a myth. It is irrational and unbiblical.
Besides, there is no coherent understanding of exactly how Jesus' death on the cross helps us.
Yes, I have never understood this either. Why did God need to have Jesus killed in order to save us? He's God, why can't he just save us himself? I thought God could do anything? Did he really need Jesus to do his bidding for him?
And wow Calvin, you make God sound like a megalomaniac. Is God really that insecure that he needs to constantly exhibit his mighty powers? I mean, really, he's the most kick-ass being in the universe. Hell, he created the universe. He can do anything he wants. So why the big chip on his shoulder?
What do you think God should have done when Adam and Eve disobeyed
Well, I'm not sure I have the answer, but I can tell you what he should have NOT done: punish the rest of humanity for the supposed sin of Adam and Eve. What sensible person believes that it is even remotely fair to punish the children for the sins of the parents? Besides, he's frickin God. If he's so disappointed with them, then get rid of Adam and Eve and start over and this time make sure to create some beings who won't be tempted by an apple. If there are any problems with us humans, it's God's fault, not ours. He had the power to create "better" beings and chose not to. Like he didn't see the whole apple thing coming anyway? Holy crap, for the most powerful being in the Universe, this God sure does seem a bit impotent.
Calvin,
I hope you don't mind me asking where you find that reason in the Bible? I don't see the same thing when I read it.
I disagree with you. I don't know for sure, but I disagree that God would create us just to show His nature.
If that were the case, there could be no friendship with God. We would be in fear that at any moment He might choose to undo us to show His sufficiency. I don't think that is true. Adam and Eve could have just as well obeyed. They could have walked away from the tree and chosen to walk away from it every day thus deepening their character to become more like God, to exercise self control. Would that nullify God's justice or power?
Can you explain God's glory, Calvin? Can you really grasp that? God's glory is beautiful, He is powerful and gentle; kind and at the same time a fierce protector, He is love and laughter; wisdom and knowledge. God's glory is the sum of who He is...beautiful, powerful, pure and holy. How could any of us really believe a God who creates us to suffer for the sake of His glory? Allowing evil and causing it are two different things. It seems as if you are saying that God actually caused the right conditions for evil so He could display His glory and that would be the very definition of selfishness, would it not?
Bruce,
You and I must have been posting at the same time.
Where does the Bible say that God punishes the children for the sins of the parents?
And, Bruce, I would really like to hear someone give an answer to what God should do with evil people. Who gets to define evil anyway?
I can only imagine that God did not create us in heaven in the first place because then we would automatically be overwhelmed by Him and not have formed a will and a character that would be similar to His.
What character traits are you referring to here? Courage? Stamina? Patience? Generosity? Discipline? Others? They all presuppose a world that is not blissful, don't they? In heaven we will not need these character traits, correct? Then why bother with them in the first place?
I would really like to hear someone give an answer to what God should do with evil people. Who gets to define evil anyway?
The same things you propose to do with them, take them out of the general population by placing them in jails and prisons. Do YOU propose that we should tar and feather them and burn them alive? Do you propose that we should torture them or hang them or cut off their hands and pluck out their eyes?
On a much deeper level people are not evil at all, they are crazy, unbalanced, misunderstood, and sick. And if psychologists can figure these things out then how much more so can an omniscient God.
So I propose we take these sickos out of the general population.
Most people don't see God's passion for God's glory as an act of love. One reason is that they have absorbed the world's definition of love that says you are loved when you are made much of. The main problem with this is when you apply this to God's love for us it distorts reality. God's love is not mainly His making much of us but His giving us GRACE to enjoy making much of Him forever. God's love for us exults His value and our satisfaction in it. If God's love made us central it would distract us from what is most precious; HIMSELF. Love labors and suffers to enthrall us with what is infinitely satisfying; God. God's love breaks us from the bondage to the idol of self and focus our affections on the treasure of God. Love keeps God central because the soul was made for God. His love for us makes Him central. Scince God is Holy and perfect Jesus is the one being in the universe for whom self-exaltation is the most loving act. This is because the most satisfying reality we could ever know is Jesus. So to give us this reality, He must give us Himself. The love of Jesus drives Him to pray for us, and then die for us, not that our value may be central, but that His glory may be central, and we may see it and savor it for all eternity. God doesn't create evil in the hearts of men. Rather He removes His hand and allows them to follow their own will and evil desires. They are responsible for their evil deeds and therefore, justly condemned. God changes the hearts of His children with His grace and they do what they WANT to do; love and worship Him forever.
Romans 9:22 - What if God, desiring to show His wrath and make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory.
God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," Has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor. 4:6
It is by beholding the Glory of Christ that believers are first gradually transformed into His image, and then brought into the eternal enjoyment of it, because they shall be forever like Him, for they shall see Him as He is.
I see your point, Calvin. Do you think the vessels of wrath are all people? I thought your point earlier was to show that God created us with the intention of showing His wrath and power. Is that what you mean?
Although I don' know where the bible actually states that children are punished for their parents sins, there is that thing with Cain and his decendants being cursed. I wouldn't say that black skin is a punishment and it was meant to be a mark to show that they were his decendants, however I would say that his decendants have recieved alot of punishment because of their skin color. On a personal note I don't belive God holds us responsable for anyones sins but our own. I guess that also depends on when we are saying punishment for ones sins is dished out. If on earth, it seems there is evidence that this does infact occur, if punishment for sins is reserved for afterlife then I would say that we will not be punished for anyones sins but our own, and only if we haven't repented of those sins and tried our best to do what's right.
I happen to believe the latter.
As far as the other problem I mentioned, we are here to learn right from wrong and learn how to become free acting beings that want to choose right of our own accord and not by anyones control over our actions. We learn that there are things that we do that cause others to suffer at our expense. This is why it is important to be created with freedom to choose and act freely so that we learn the importance of choice and consequence. Alowwing us the freedom to make choices but limiting our actions to only the right choices would not be free will as I understand it to be. If I have a law/commandment that says I am not to consume alchohol I have the choice to make, but it is a continual choice. If free will is such an important thing to try and master here, why would it not be a part of our continued exsistance?
John
"So I propose we take these sickos out of the general population."
So basically we could create a place where we could place these evil-doers so they could reside away from the general population of goody-two-shoes? Wouldn't that be something like Hell? Maybe there should be many different places to put people of all types according to their level of goodness? When Hell is spoken of isn't it metaphorically so that we get the idea that it's not a place you want to spend eternity?
In heaven, we will be like little kids - innocent little kids - no one will be holding a bad reputation over our heads to manipulate or demoralize us, no one will be villifying or labeling us or impugning our motives, God will support our efforts to play and be creative and progressive - no one will be criticizing us or condemning us (that is considered murder in the spiritual realm) - no one will be mocking or ridiculing us - there will be no hatred. No one will have the burden of pretending to be something they are not - they will be fully known and fully loved. No one will be insensitive and try to put heavy and ill-fitting expectations and burdens on others. No one will have to be defensive for fear of reproach and no one will be rejected.
There will be plenty of diversity, but peacefulness - the lion will lie down with the lamb - there is no need for the lion to convert into a lamb or a lamb to convert to being a lion - they will be unique but united in peacefulness.
Heaven could very well exist in our hearts right here, except we won't be arguing about God's existance anymore - instead, our debating and discussing talents will be used to design new heavenly playground equipment, or the creation of a new constellation or galaxy. Or perhaps menu details for an eternal banquet - I think there will be lots of opportunities to use the talents of all who contribute here - I think we could do a better job in the here and now by loving each other the way God does.
May God Bless!
Thanks!
Anon 1035
Anonymous,
Where are Cain and his descendant cursed? Cain was put out of God's presence and away from his people and made to be a wanderer on the earth. Cain is afraid that he will be killed by others so God protects Cain by "appointing a sign" for him. We are never told that black skin is the sign and black skin would be a blessing in a hot culture like that, it would seem. Then God tells Cain that vengance will be taken 7 fold on anyone who tries to kill him. That doesn't sound like a curse to me. God curses the ground for Adam and for Cain but He never cursed them as people.
I wish I'd dived into this discussion earlier -- and had more time now to go into it with more depth. I'll just make a couple of comments and expand them later, but I have to get started because it gives me a chance to discuss some of my favorite things.
Maybe it is my background, and the liberal Catholicism added to my parents' wisdom in child rearing, but I have never seen the great evil in people that so many of you from an evangelical background do. Oh, there are some evil people out there, and none of us are faultless, but overall, most of us are a lot more good than evil -- and much of the evil in society has been improving over the years -- even over the years of my lifetime, and as a historian I will insist on greater changes over time. We have become sensitive to evil in society that we overlooked or saw as natural again, within my lifetime.
And many of the evils that remain -- and yes, some will 'always be with us' because some come from true sickness like sociopathy, and even lack of empathy, but I'm not talking about that -- I feel come from the type of religious teaching that people like Calvin represent, (Though I am not claiming in the slightest that he is evil, or that those who speak like him have done anything except blinded themselves with certain preconceptions and false ideas.)
I am not talking either, about 'evil done in the name of religion.' That happens, but even that type of evil is greatly lessening in this particular 'God-drunk' culture. (I spoke differently when I was on a forum the vast majority of members of which were Muslim. The main evil of Islam is that it remains locked in the pre-Enlightenment medievalism that most Christian and post-Christian cultures have put behind them.)
What I mean though is the corrupting effect of three Christian 'moral' ideas that, so frequently, cause precisely the opposite effect of what they intend, and drive people away from even considering the ethical aspects of their behavior -- and short-circuit the natural empathy all but the true sociopath possess.
These three ideas are that 'we are all sinners, deserving of damnation were it not for the undeserved forgiving grace of God.' (No we aren't. Most of us do have our petty flaws and weaknesses, but most of us are far more good than evil, and are seriously trying to make our lives and the lives of those around us better places.)
The second is seeing sin as an offense against God instead of an offense against our neighbor. (If we steal, or lie, or kill, we are doing wrong not because we're breaking some writing on a stone tablet, but because we are hurting our neighbor -- and ourselves because such actions dull our ethical sense and make us more callous.)
The third is seeing 'sin' as a unitary, undivided thing. It's an outgrowth of the previous poisonous tree. If sin IS an offense against a God, deserving of infinite punishment, then all sins become equal. If masturbation and murder are equal offenses, (not that masturbation is sinful in any way shape or form, but many religious people are taught it is) this does not heighten the supposed 'evil' of masturbation but lowers the sensitivity to murder.
That last is the key. If all sins are equal, and we are told that we are all sinners -- and if harmless activities are listed among the sins -- sooner or later we'll just give up, accept that 'what the hell, we're going to hell anyway,' or lose the ability to really perceive the ethical consequences of our acts on those around us. (The idea of a 'Last Judgment' as a trial doesn't help much, because we satart preparing our defense, and there's a little bit of the shyster in all of us.)
No time to talk about the type of 'moral instruction' I grew up with. I was lucky, my parents had a skill at parenting that helped me greatly, but that will be for the next comment later in the afternoon. (I see there were comments here since I began writing, but they will have to wait as well.)
Thank you John for answering my question.
John:
The same things you propose to do with them, take them out of the general population by placing them in jails and prisons. Do YOU propose that we should tar and feather them and burn them alive? Do you propose that we should torture them or hang them or cut off their hands and pluck out their eyes?
Me:
No, like you said I think they should be taken out of the population. I do believe in the death penalty, done humanely, for some crimes.
Asking me if I think these things are good options is irrelevant. I don't live in a time when these things happen. If I lived in 18th century England I would probably be subjected to watching or at least listening to people being disemboweled or drawn and quartered. Isn't it all frame of mind? I would imagine that large prisons and institutions were a bit expensive and burdensome to people who were trying to survive.
In the context of the time, what could God have done?
What does the word evil mean to you?
Arrrgh!!! I was going to get away from this, but I happened to glance at the comments, and won't be able to concentrate if I don't respond to the comments from Anonymous of 11:37.
If you are going to quote the ugliest parts of the Bible, the excuse that Christians used for racism and slavery, will you at least get them RIGHT
You say "there is that thing with Cain and his decendants being cursed. I wouldn't say that black skin is a punishment and it was meant to be a mark to show that they were his decendants, however I would say that his decendants have recieved alot of punishment because of their skin color." Even the racists never made that mistake. Black people were supposed to be the descendants of HAM -- see Genesis 9:18-25.
Sometimes I wish evengelicals actually read the Bible and studied it, and didn't just check out 'the good parts' that their preachers tell them about.
Prup, I suspect you might do good to others so that through that you feel better, that you did something. But thats where it's wrong. Everything we do should be for the glory of God, not for our own glory.
Yes, sin is not only an offense against our neighbors, but also against God. It's outrightly going against everything that God commanded us to do. His greatest commandment is to love God and love you neighbor. Through sin, you hurt both.
I don't know what you're getting at in your third point. All sins are equal and forgivable, except for one, and that is denying God and his spirit. Only God knows when you finally and lastly deny to accept God and who he is, and the bible says: his spirit stops striving with yours. That is scary.
Finally masturbation is wrong. It is using your own body for your own pleasure, and nothing else. This is a sin, and especially for Christians, because for Christians, are bodies are a temple, for in us now resides God's glory, rather than a building.
P.s. the new anonymous :)
Oh, and yes the world is getting worse. Everyday in the news is just on evil and deaths and wars and rumors of wars. To say that the world is "getting better" is ignoring everything that goes on in the world
livengrace sez:
"Finally masturbation is wrong. It is using your own body for your own pleasure, and nothing else. This is a sin, and especially for Christians, because for Christians, are bodies are a temple, for in us now resides God's glory, rather than a building. "
I used to get this a lot when I was in high school. Everything we do must be done to the glory of God. I love jazz music, but that was banned in my Baptist school because it is music that only gratifies self and does not bring glory to God. I also enjoy jogging and hiking - these do no good for anyone but myself. Shall we ban these activities? The movies we watch, the music we listen to, the art we create, the pasttimes that we participate in, even if benificial and wholesome are sin if they are not glorifying to God?
Taken to its logical conclusion - if we don't worship, pray, or witness or do something Glorifying to God every waking moment of our lives, we are sinning. Is this correct? You gotta be kidding me - we really don't have any freewill!!
Well - Paul did say to pray without ceasing, so it must be true.
I think you're mistaken. God created nature for us to enjoy, things to enjoy, and being a Christian is fun! All those things you listed are not sins, unless you idolize it and make it the center of your life. Everyone enjoys music and the sound of it because we were made to. I would suspect you are smarter to see the difference between masturbation and jazz and hiking.
My view of fun is hanging with friends, watching movies, going fishing, playing sports, watching sports. Not going to a party at night, leaning over a toilet, wake up at 12 the next day, and have a hangover. No, but in all those things previously listed I do thank God for, or wonder at His splendor and creation when I do go fishing or running. It's through God that I am able to do all things and am free, and it sure is a joy!
So basically we could create a place where we could place these evil-doers so they could reside away from the general population of goody-two-shoes? Wouldn't that be something like Hell?
Is Hell's punishment anything like the discipline that a mother does to teach a child to be better? If not, then Hell is morally repugnant, if evil people are just sick. The goal is restoration and healing and grace. But I see none of this from God's hell however conceived.
Besides, I know how God could change these evil people easily...stop hiding his love from them, and show them he cares. Don't say God does this because it's obvious he doesn't. The cross isn't something that shows God loves us if no one can make sense of it, and if it took place in an ancient superstitious period in history which few take seriously today.
Evil is pretty much what you think it is One Wave. We share the same moral understandings, probably, at least when compared to other eras and other peoples.
There is no reason why God should act differently under in cultural era than he does with another one, either.
You can't say anything of God's love if you haven't experienced it.
anonymous:
" I would suspect you are smarter to see the difference between masturbation and jazz and hiking."
My point is - I do none of things for the Glory of God. I do them for my own pleasure. According to you, this is sinful in God's eyes?
You can't say anything of God's love if you haven't experienced it.
I can say one thing about it: while it may give you a warm glowing feeling (which it would do even if it were all in your imagination....as it probably is) it isn't doing anything to ease the suffering of countless children who are starving today, or who are suffering slow agonizing deaths from congenital defects.
and a question:
how do you propose one identify whether a religious experience (your own, my own, or anyone elses) is simply a product of the fertile and suggestible human imagination or whether it actually has a supernatural source.
So far as I can tell there is only one way:
the supernatural being provided the experience must also provide some informational content which can be verified by which the experiencer couldn't possibly have known at the time of the experience.
This would demonstrate that the experience wasn't just a product of the believers imagination.
There really is no other way to identify one.
Though if you have some other criteria you think would be effective I'd be glad to discuss it.
The Christian finds his deepest pleasure in the glory of God. God's pursuit of His glory and my pursuit for happiness are the same pursuit. Saints find themselves pleased with the things of God. We are granted to see the infinite beauty of God and make much of Him forever. First the satisfying experience of God's grace and then a double satifying experience of sharing that grace with another. Love is the pursuit of my joy in the Holy joy of the beloved. There is no way to exclude self-intrest from love, for self-intrest isn't the same as selfishness. Selfishness seeks it's own private happiness at the expense of others. Love seeks it's happiness in the happiness of the beloved. It will even suffer and die for the beloved in order that it's joy might be full in life and purity of the beloved. God lures His people away from the fleeting pleasures of sin into the sacrificial path of obedient satisfaction in Him. The gospel wasn't made for peoples felt needs, but people were made for the soul-satisfying glory God.
All true virtue among human beings must aim at bringing people to rejoice in the glory of God. No act is truely virtuous (truely loving) that does not come from and aim at joy in the glory of God. God's passion for His glory is the measure of His commitment to the joy of His children.
David Ellis, good to see you here. It's really strange to me what I hear some of the Christians saying...really strange, and delusional. It's amazing to me. They just do not have the ability to connect the dots, do they?
It's like they were defending the belief in Zeus to me, and quoting book chapter and verse from Homer.
Let's drop that superstitious and strange book from the discussion. Defend what you believe based upon evidence and reasons.
It cannot be done.
The Christian faith is based upon superstition, fueled by fear, and sustained by ignorance.
Romans 1
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to
look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Yes it is a sin to live through your life, given by God, and to not glorify him or thank him. Don't be mistaken, this isn't a God who says "thank me or die."
NO! He says: "I am here, I love you, and I want you to be with me."
Through his grace and love, I glorify him and give him thanks.
Actually the world is getting less violent. See a history of violence by Steven Pinker. Our wars are less bloody per captita then they once were.
Yes our wars are getting less bloody, but the world is getting worse. People used to have the gut to stand up to evil or dictators that preached evil (i.e. Hitler). Now Americans don't even want troops in Iraq to hold back or defeat terrorism. But every time I read about the end times in the bible, I realize how close the world is to it.
livengrace, even from within the confines of your own skewed and false assumptions about history your comment doesnt hold up. In both world wars Americans held back as long as possible from getting involved in the conflict.
God lures His people away from the fleeting pleasures of sin into the sacrificial path of obedient satisfaction in Him. The gospel wasn't made for peoples felt needs, but people were made for the soul-satisfying glory God.
And so the attitude of grovelling obeisance learned at the feet of earthly despots and reflected in the religions of their cultures lingers still.
Thanks but no thanks, if I come to find myself before a god or gods in the afterlife they will have some tough questions to answer before they win my allegiance or respect.
I wonder what david ellis is doing for the starving and dieing children
To the Anonymous somewhere above who says that jealousy is a sin. God tells Moses in Exodus that he is a jealous God. So by your own definition, the God of the Bible is a sinner.
Not only is the God of the Bible a sinner, this fictional entity is at best a mean spirited incompetent.
Thanks for the kindness David!
I will say good luck to you, trying to speak before God!
Yes, America held back as long as possible in both wars, letting other countries take the casulties, but when they did go in, holding back is not the phrase I would use.
You wonder how strange it is for us Christians, who see athiests deny everything, ask for proof, and then say that the amazing features of the world came from nothing. I have connected the dots of love, life, faith, freedom, grace, and joy. Not a life to please myself and with no future. So please, quit hurting yourself and others when you say we can't connect the dots.
I'm pretty heated now and trying not to go down to your level of looking down at us "dumb Christians."
Superstition....What???
Fear...What can man do to me?
Sustained by ignorance...again What??? Yes we are the ones ignoring the creator of all things, of love and freedom from sin, and a free gift of eternal life.
Finally, evidence and reason? No evidence or reason I could give you will ever change your thoughts or heart. Once again, I would recommend reading Hebrews chapter 11.
Sorry revision to post above:
I have done nothing but accept Christ and only by him have I connected those dots.
;)
Live-n-grace, stop preaching to yourself. When you say things like "I have done nothing but accept Christ," and "It's through God that I am able to do all things and am free, and it sure is a joy!" you are just preaching and wasting our time.
And telling us to read the Bible is silly as we are well read in it, and some of us have been ministers.
What you need to be trying to do is to philosophically justify the idea of an omnipotent god having to punish his children far worse than any human parent could ever do. You haven't done this. You just preach and quote scriptures, and make it clear that you are an ignoramus who refuses to use common sense.
Parents don't torture their children in hell; god does. You can try and justify it, but you'll likely just be babbling like you are now.
(JH)
Give me the references that show God toruturing His children. The criteria is that it must be Israel.
Then tell me what a good mother does when she sees her sons raping her young daughters and killing each other unmercifully.
John,
If I understand you right you are saying that God should not treat people who practice child sacrifice or skin people alive or draw and quarter, any differently than people who steal a piece of gum.
You really think that the mentallity of a people who live in a secure society with affluence have the same mindset as people who built walls to keep invading armies out and witnessed horrific death?
I don't mean to insult you, but that is truly ignorant. We may all experience grief, joy, sadness etc... but people who can cut a person in half do not have the same view of human life as a mentally healthy American.
I rejoice in my sufferings for His sake.
Oh, much to comment on since I last wrote here, far too much for this late at night -- blame two straight extra inning games. But a few things need to be said, and I'll handle the rest tomorrow morning.
Atheists hardly deny everything. They accept and celebrate the Universe, man's essential goodness and wisdom, The growth in knowledge that has caused us to realize that 'God is an answer for which there is no question,' and the many varieties of religious thought man has come up with before he made that realization. We also accept evidence, the evidence of who wrote the Bible, when it was written, the facts that prove so much of it oure fiction, the selection process that gave us our current Christian canon, etc.
One Wave, the position you quote is the position of believers, the very argument I denied when I claimed that one of the many flaws in the Christian moral system is that it sees all sins as infinite in nature. I do thank you for your point that the mindset of the people for whom the Bible was written was so much different than our own. This ties in so strongly with the point that Eusto made against the claims of liv-n-grace. Our morality has changed. We have many fewer wars now, and conduct them, overall with much less barbarity -- that is even a change from a war as recent as WWII. We no longer -- for the most part, barbarians like the Serbs still exist -- accept rape as either a weapon of war or part of the 'spoils' due a victorious army. We do attempt to target our attacks -- as much as I condemn Bush's Iraq madness, in the war part of it he did attempt to limit civilian casualties greatly compared to previous wars. Again, the world is -- in general, and with some 'backsliding' -- becoming more and more moral, and the growth in communication and understanding of other peoples that the internet gives improves this. (When before 1990 could we have held a conversation between people living in China, Brooklyn, Italy, England, and wherever you, John and liv-n-grace live, with the rapid interchange of ideas and thoughts. Compare that to the isolation of, oh, say the Thirties, when the average non-urban person who had been neither to war nor to college never met anyone that much different from his parents and neighbors, never met new ideas and rejected them if he did because they WERE new.
I was saddened to see HelsSailing accept the difference between masturbation and listening to jazz or hiking. Because morally there is NONE. All three are pleasures, harmless ones, that -- unless they intrude on a person's duty to family, job, or other responsibility -- should be encouraged if the person enjoys them. (I always liked walking but not hiking -- and hiking is at least theoretically dangerous -- twisted ankles and the like.)
Oh and anonymous at 4:21 of April 14th: I entirely agree with you about parties and have rarely attended them And while I take the occasional drink, I find drunkenness in myself or others extremely distateful. I don't fish, and my age and arthritis limit my playing of sports, but I enjoy the same things you do, among others.
More tomorrow.
God doesn't torture His children in hell. He punishes the reprobate in hell. God shows His love and tendernes towards His children by executing His justice against the reprobate. Again, the seriousness of an insult rises with the dignity of the one who is insulted. There are infinte consequences when you sin against a being that is infinite in value and worth. God's not going to let someone into heaven that doesn't want to have anything to do with Him.
Also, there's different degrees of punishment in hell. The torment of Hitler's hell will greatly exceed the torment experienced by a garden-variety pagan. God is perfectly just and each person will suffer what he exactly deserves.
Nevermind. I'm assuming now that what you were referring to John, was hell??
I see that you are challenging us to come up with "proof" of God outside of the Bible. You know that no one can prove anything that you are not willing to believe. I could try and prove to you that men really did walk on the moon but if you believe that they did not, no amount of "evidence" will convince you. There are people who believe this. Do you believe the Holocaust happened? There are many people who think they can prove that it didn't. What will happen when the eyewitnesses are all dead? What if most of what they wrote dissapears and two thousand years from now, all we have are myths in a text book and fragments of letters, and ....you see where I am going.
One thing you said is a scarry prospect. You said that you think Christians are delusional which, unless you said that tongue in cheek, would lead to the possibility of some day having reason to commit to a mental insitution anyone claiming to believe in God. You, John W. Loftus, have become the standard by which all humanity must be judged.
Or maybe I am just reading too much into it. :o)
Prup,
This is my last comment as I will not be on here until some distant future date:o)
I do not believe that sin is infinite in nature. I believe every person is a new beginning. I don't accept the doctrine of inherited sin, but I do accept that the bad example of a parent will spoil a child's chances of being able to use his or her will for the right things. I would consider my first and second children to be very close to perfect...but that's just a mom's opinion, :o)
I'll read your comment, if you make one, but I won't respond cause I just have to get off of this computer! Goodbye Prup
I wonder what david ellis is doing for the starving and dieing children
Unfortunately, despite my limited financial resources and lack of magical powers, more than an "omnipotent" being appears to do.
One wave, we are not asking for absolute proof---just present arguments or evidence which you think are such that any reasonable person viewing them objectively is forced to conclude it is more likely than not the christian God (or any other) exists.
I have connected the dots of love, life, faith, freedom, grace, and joy. Not a life to please myself and with no future. So please, quit hurting yourself and others when you say we can't connect the dots.
And why do you assume a nonbeliever in God (or gods) chooses "a life to please himself". Most of us atheists are as concerned for the well-being of others as theists are?
such comments are rather insulting (not to mention false).
livengrace, rather than arguments or evidence you are, in effect, simply making the typical religious claim "I know it in my heart".
Unfortunately, the human heart doesnt have some magical ability to distinguish fact from fiction. Would that it did---but life--- and the pursuit of truth are not so simple as that.
Onewave. You are reading too much into it.
It is nice having you here. If you have to go, then I bid you farewell. Come back whenever, and let me know what you think of my book. Bertrand Russell's book is good, but if you want a direct discussion of the Bible and it's claims read mine. While it may seem bragging to you, I think I have written the best single book on the market today that debunks Christianity.
-John
One Wave:
First, let me add my best wishes to the others. You have been a well-liked addition here, and I hope you can make it back. We need someone like you to remind us of the best Christianity can produce, we have too much of the others here. I think your kids are lucky to have you as a mother -- I assume you are not the type to be influenced by the ugly Dobsonian and Enzo and other "Christian Child Rearing" manuals which I described as "Bible-based Baby Beating."
I hope you get a chance to read us, and we will be glad to welcome you back when you can make it here. (Library computers can be very useful.)
I'll be talking about some of the ways my parents taught me, I hope you get to see them and can profit from them.
And it is possible to find my e-mail address (ask John if you can't) if you get a chance to correspond. I'd enjoy it.
Why are you concerned with the well-beings of others?
Because it makes YOU feel better that you helped somebody. That is the truth.
Certainly that is a part of it, but a small part. (In fact, sometimes I do things for others in small ways when I know I'd feel better if I did something else that helped myself.)
No, I help others because I'm part of a 6 Bilion member club called the human race, and because I hapen to think that one of the 'duties' of club membership is to leave the world a better place than I found it.
That's why I spend my time posting here, btw, because I think the world is a better place the more people think about and reject their irrational and erroneous beliefs in God and the Bible. Believe me, if I weren't posting, I have just added five new mysteries to the collection that I'd enjoy reading. But I enjoy doing this, it DOES make me feel good, but much more I feel I am accomplishing something. If my words never penetrate your self-built wall of blindness, others who might be tempted to think like you might see them and reconsider.
And, btw, can you deny that doing what you see as 'God's will' does not make you think better of yourself. In that, of course, we don't differ.
Doing God's will makes me think better of God. It's by His grace that I do His will. It gives me joy to please Him
Why do the children suffer? Well, God is holy, and in His holiness He exercises judgement against the wickedness that is prevalent in human nature. The assumption that children are born in an innocent state is a false assumption. We are born in a sinful state. Of course there is a special measure of grace for children who die at a young age in that they go to be with the Lord.
The assumption that children are born in an innocent state is a false assumption. We are born in a sinful state.
Why are children born in a sinful state? Does God not have the power to make it that children are born innocent?
Adam was our representative head in the garden. Not chosen by us who are fallible but by God who is infallible. So I can never argue that Adam was a poor representative for me given that God is infallible. We are born sinners because in Adam we all fell. When Adam jumped into the pit we all jumped into the pit. The fault is ours. God wanting to display His nature allowed sin to enter the world. One thing is for certain, nature and the Bible both agree.
Why are you concerned with the well-beings of others?
Because it makes YOU feel better that you helped somebody. That is the truth.
Oh, so you are able to read my mind--even down to possible subconscious or unconscious motives?
I was unaware you were psychic.
Does it actually not occur to you that there are other quite likely and plausible motives? Like simply empathizing with the suffering of others (and this often involves no personal enjoyment). It doesnt make me feel good to sit beside the bed of someone suffering and try to ease their pain in the few small ways I am able---in fact, its all too often excruciating.
People of good will, including atheists, help others for the simple reason that they care about them---not because they get some personal enjoyment from the act.
Why do the children suffer? Well, God is holy, and in His holiness He exercises judgement against the wickedness that is prevalent in human nature. The assumption that children are born in an innocent state is a false assumption.
If an infant has a sinful nature this fact was not a matter of choice for the infant. It can be not more held responsible for this than a dog can for having a carnivorous nature.
The argument you are presenting is a perfect example of the harm we skeptics see in holding irrational, faith-based beliefs---for goodness sake, you're saying an infant is deserving of the suffering it receives from a congenital defect--- a living being which did not choose its "nature", sinful or otherwise, and which lacks the mental capacity to even form the intent to do wrong.
When Adam jumped into the pit we all jumped into the pit. The fault is ours.
How can it be an infant's fault in any respect that Adam "jumped into the pit"?
I have yet to hear a reasonable (or even coherent) explanation for this oft-heard christian justification for the suffering of infants
Yes Prup, lets rid the world of Christianity, great idea.
By the way, you'll also have to get rid of the idea to do to others as you would have them do to you, thats from Christianity. So is love your enemies, so it looks like a lot more wars are to come. Oh, forgot, the constution will have to be rewritten.
Finally, good luck, because it will never happen, guaranteed.
By the way, you'll also have to get rid of the idea to do to others as you would have them do to you, thats from Christianity.
Are you actually unaware that other philosophies and cultures came up with the concept of the golden rule (and close variants of it) entirely independently?
So is love your enemies, so it looks like a lot more wars are to come.
Try reading The Meditations Of Marcus Aurelius, or Epictetus, Buddhist scriptures, Taoist philosophy, just to name a few. All express similar ideas.
Oh, forgot, the constution will have to be rewritten.
Uh, the constitution of the united states makes no mention of christianity (or even theism)....a fact which, if I recall correctly, was debated at the constitutional convention and it was decided to make no mention of it deliberately (many of the founding fathers, after all, including Jefferson, Franklin and Washington, were not christians but deists).
Well, I explained it to you in the federal view of the fall and you seemed to miss it.
We are born sinners because in Adam we all fell. When Adam jumped into the pit we all jumped into the pit. The fault is ours. God wanting to display His nature allowed sin to enter the world.
This is what I was referring to earlier when I said that God makes children suffer for the sins of their parents. Because Adam jumped into the pit then all children are condemned sinners upon birth? Again, sounds like God has quite the chip on his shoulder. You'd think an infinitely perfect being such as God would be able to let go a grudge after so many years?
Liv-n-grace:
Not only is Bruce right that other cultures have come up with variants of 'do unto others,' but it was not even original to Jesaus. He was quoting Rabbi Hillel, and that is one reason why scholars suggest he may have studied in the school founded by Hillel.
Of course that shouldn't be a surprise since, to quote Enslin -- this time from REAPPROACHING PAUL, which I am just starting -- "Jesus lived and died a Jew, with his eye fixed on the speedy coming of the new age promised to Abraham and long awaited by Abraham's children."
And realize that when America becomes a post-Christian society, as Western Europe to a large extent already has, that does not mean that Christianity will be abolished. It will just be irrelevant, but there will be those who continue to believe, and more who pay lip-service to it as a part of their tradition. And no one expects that the number of good things, both ideas and art, that Christianity has brought to our culture will be thrown out. Certainly there are moral principles in Christianity that match up with the morals of non-Christians. "Loving your neighbor" will, I hope, be seen as much stronger an admonition.
(You may remember that I pointed out that Christians say "Love your neighbor because God tells you to." A much better way of looking at it is "Love your neighbor because he deserves to be loved, and because he's a fellow 'club-member,' a fellow human being.")
Love your neigbor because it brings joy to them and you and most importantly it glorifies God. Whatever you do do all to the glory of God. Do it because you want to. Show them God's GRACE.
Sorry Prup, and many of you, but my point was that much of, if not all, commandments, come from the Jews, and they were around far before the philosophers.
You are also saying that the best laws in the world come from religion, which I agree with, because without religion, then "everybody would do what is right in their own eyes."
I realize that America, not too long from now, will become like Europe, and looking at Europe currently, I see that it can only get worse from here.
But hey, you never know, at the Rose Garden at easter 1000 people were baptized.(14,000 attented!)
There are many very good ideas in the Old Testament, many ways in which it was a substantial step forward in man's evolving ethical sense -- paricularly in areas of social justice.
However, there are some areas in which it can only be described as horrible, and, to me, the greatest of these is the attitude it takes towards the relationship of children and parents. The 'original sin' story is one of these, but there are four more worth thinking about. I ask the believers to attempt to think about them as if you'd never heard of them before, as if they were stories from some 'pagan' religion, and judge them that way.
The first is the sacrifice at Moriah, the 'test' of Abraham. Yes, the story has a happy ending, God stepped in and stopped the sacrifice, and this is taken as a prohibition of all human sacrifice. But the 'Angel of the Lord' only praises Abraham for being willing to offer up his son to God. And imagine the scene through the eyes of Isaac, lying on the slab, knowing that, because of his belief, his father is willing to kill him, seeing the knife coming towards him, and his father not deciding "No, I cannot do this," but only stopping when the Angel tells him to.
Then think of the story of Lot and of Sodom and Gomorrah -- and the later parallel in Judges. Yes, the laws of hospitality in a desert country are powerful, but in both cases, when the crowd comes to the host's house, his response is 'go ahead and rape my virgin daughter.'
Then think of the law that if someone rapes an unbetrothed daughter, he owes a major fine to the father -- and must marry the daughter.
Finally the slaughter of the first-born in the Passover. (It may be mythical, almost certainly is, but it is still told.) These were children, some perhaps full-grown, others infants, who are put to death not even to punish their parents -- remember that Egypt was truly a despotic monarchy, and the everyday Egyptian had no way of either changing the mind of Pharaoh or refusing his commands -- but to influence Pharaoh.
The original sin story is ugly, but no more so than the others, if you see them afresh.
And wow Calvin, you make God sound like a megalomaniac. Is God really that insecure that he needs to constantly exhibit his mighty powers? I mean, really, he's the most kick-ass being in the universe. Hell, he created the universe. He can do anything he wants. So why the big chip on his shoulder?
He feels like it . That is the only justification you get from the Lord of Lords and King of Kings.
In both world wars Americans held back as long as possible from getting involved in the conflict.
There were very good reasons that Americans did not want to be involved in the first world war.
The second was blowback from the first.
Adam was our representative head in the garden. Not chosen by us who are fallible but by God who is infallible.
So the Adam represented God ?
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