Another One Bites the Dust...er, Leaves the Fold
Here's Brian Green's testimony from two emails sent to me [Used with permission]:
The first one:I'm a newly deconverted christian who just wanted to thank you for your book and blog which have greatly helped me see the world for what it is (and isn't). It's very freeing not being bound to a restricting and honestly irrational way of life.
Thanks from a fan!
Brian Green
ps: looking forward to the release of your new book!
The second one:I was born into a Christian home and was born again and began taking my faith seriously after my daughter was born. There were always a few things that didn't seem to make sense, such as why is belief regional (where you live mostly determines how you will believe), and if there is a holy spirit why were the mature Christians no more gifted with the 'fruits of the spirit' than anyone else. In fact the ministry personnel are the worst (my wife works for a church).
So because of these doubts I was really into apologetics and have many books but all of them are from Christian authors. I never thought enough to read any opposing literature. That was until I had a crisis in my marriage and the lack of help and true compassion from our church friends (not unlike your story) that caused me to truly doubt and look elsewhere.
That's when I got your book and was blown away! I couldn't believe the evidence. There were other gods who died and rose again? And the Bible is very inconsistent, which of course was never covered in church. Other books I've read that helped are Dan Barkers Losing Faith in Faith and Gary Lenaires An Infidel Manifesto. These all made so much sense when reading, as opposed to the Christian books that I needed a road map to follow the logic.
This has all happened within the last year and I feel better about myself and my life than ever before. My wife is still a Christian but clearly is seeing my point and I believe she is very close.
Thanks again I read DC every day!
26 comments:
That was until I had a crisis in my marriage and the lack of help and true compassion from our church friends (not unlike your story) that caused me to truly doubt and look elsewhere.
Christians, are you listening? A person is never so vulnerable to rejecting his faith as when he's experiencing a crisis, not unlike how people convert to Christianity in the first place.
Again, are you listening?
How will YOU respond to a Christian in YOUR church who is having difficulties?
I'm finding out that my true friends were not my christian friends. It seems that they can live any kind of life they want and treat people poorly and just pray for forgiveness and no worries. I realise that the church does not teach this but it is true any way, which is a big indictment against the holy spirit and therfore christianity.
If it seems I'm a little bitter, probably. But I know that my decision regarding christianity and gods existience was made after a long look at the actual evidence presented by both sides. And to be honest it wasn't even close.
Brian and John, I'm with you. The lack of company and help from my church (when I was going through a time in my life so difficult I was considering suicide for weeks) was a factor, though not the greatest one, in my deconversion. I was searching the Bible, wondering why I was expected to give and give and love and love, but at the end of the day I was left out in the cold by people who felt that because I was down I must also be kicked.
Brian, I see our stories are similiar, just wanted to welcome you to the "club". It maybe bumpy sometimes but there is no other direction I see or would rather go.
I never thought enough to read any opposing literature.
If this is the case then how could you have been sure of your faith, Brian?
John said**How will YOU respond to a Christian in YOUR church who is having difficulties?
Good question. Most Christians would respond in an un-Christian way unfortunately. As for me, I would support them and encourage them. Call me a narrow-gate Christian.
Hey Brian,
While my deconversion is significantly different (which I believe I'm going to write to John about as well), I have seen a lot of other people with your story. I'm glad to see you and Gabe leaving the sheep herd and joining human-kind.
I've come to the conclusion that most religious people are not human. They rejoice in being slaves and being hurt for no good reason. These is anti-human.
There are just as many, if not more, Atheists becoming Theists as there are the other way around... Here is a name you should know, Antony Flew. Most atheists look up to him for his work while he was an atheist, but they refuse to look at the conclusion of that work. He was an atheist, but being led by science, is now a Theist...
Brian- welcome. I'm sure you know this, but lots of good supportive folks are Christians too.
msvoboda- yes, we know about Anthony Flew. Read this post here at DC.
you say:
Most atheists look up to him for his work while he was an atheist, but they refuse to look at the conclusion of that work.
I can't answer for "most atheists", but this atheist never heard of him before his conversion. After reading some of his pre-conversion stuff, I can't say I am very impressed: just another philosopher spinning his wheels in a playland of words without real-world referents. But that's just my humble opinion.
Merry Christmas, or Cephalopodmas, or Saturnalia, or whatever, to everyone!
Jim,
Why would a good and loving god create a 'narrow world' It's ridiculous to think a good god would condem the majority (or any for that matter) of his creation to everlasting punishment. It just doesn't make sense.
And before my crisis I'm not sure I really wanted to clearly hear what the other side had to say.
Thanks all for the encouragement!
Brian,
God doesn't condemn the majority... Our sin condemns us. It does make since, you just haven't cared enough to really study and see what scripture actually teaches. It teaches our sin condemns us. God being perfect, makes him just. It would be unjust for a judge to pardon all criminals of there crimes. It is the same with God. It would be unjust for God to pardon all people of their crimes and sins... So he sends Jesus Christ to die for our sins so that we wouldn't have too...
msvoboda, the Bible says we are all sinful. The Bible says a lot more foolish, nonsensical things that it doesn't see fit to supply evidence, let alone proof, for. I fail to see why we should just take its word for anything.
Unless you can show me unimpeachable evidence that leads to the inevitable conclusion that the Bible is correct, I have no interest in any arguments that start with "the Bible says," or, indeed, in the Bible itself.
You can say "God wants this" and "God wants that" until you're blue in the face. We don't have any more reason to listen to you than we have to listen to a raving maniac tied to a bed in a hospital somewhere.
msvoboda, the Bible says we are all sinful. The Bible says a lot more foolish, nonsensical things that it doesn't see fit to supply evidence, let alone proof, for. I fail to see why we should just take its word for anything.
Unless you can show me unimpeachable evidence that leads to the inevitable conclusion that the Bible is correct, I have no interest in any arguments that start with "the Bible says," or, indeed, in the Bible itself.
You can say "God wants this" and "God wants that" until you're blue in the face. We don't have any more reason to listen to you than we have to listen to a raving maniac tied to a bed in a hospital somewhere.
Speedwell,
It is not just the Bible that says we are sinful, history clearly tells us that we are sinful. Or wait, do you believe people are naturally good? I guess you think people are naturally good it is just their behaviors that fail them?
People are clearly sinful, whether the Bible says so or not. Daily experience shows us that we are sinful.
Msvoboda
Actually it's because that I cared enough to thoroughly study scripture plus alot of books written by people way smarter than me (christian and not) that I hold the position I do.
If I didn't care it would be much easier to still be a christian.
...Also where did sin come from and how can sin condem us? Everything starts and ends with god, or is goodness from god and sin from? Can anyone other than god create anything?
Brian,
Ok.. You might of studied throughly, but it is obvious that you got it wrong. It is clear you don't understand the full message of the Gospel. If you did understand you would know that it isn't God who condemns us to hell, but our sin that condemns us.
Msvodoba,
I have a book by John MacArthur- The Gospel According To Jesus and a book by Tony Evans- Free At Last, they have completely opposite views of sin and salvation. Both are well known christians and both use scripture to back their arguments.
Which do you follow and are you willing to bet your soul on it? I personally could never figure out which christi
People are clearly sinful, whether the Bible says so or not. Daily experience shows us that we are sinful.
That's absolutely untrue, mslovoda. Daily experience does show us we sometimes act contrary to what we regard as correct, moral, optimal, etc. But this is not sin. You are making the rather common error of conflating "crimes against God" (sins) with "crimes against self" and "crimes against others."
The fact is, that if you cannot demonstrate the existence of God, then you have not shown that there is anything that calls our foibles and wrongs sins. No God, no sin.
Again, we certainly do sometimes do things that we regard as bad or wrong. But "sin" is something that has meaning only in the context of Christianity. Understand now?
Msvoboda, my apologies for mistyping your name; I don't know what I was thinking. Probably about tomorrow's massive dinner, that I am ninety percent responsible for cooking... :)
i don't need to 'bet my soul' on a particular view of sin... I need to 'bet my soul' on the person and work of Jesus Christ! Having perfect doctrine isn't what gets someone to heaven. Believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and trusting in the work of the cross is what saves a persons soul.
Speedwell,
Now it is clear that you really don't understand what sin is. Obviously sin is always 'against God' but if you murder a person that is sin. If you do any wrong to another human being you are sinning against God. When you commit a crime against others you are sinning...
You are terribly mistaken about sin. I think if you read the Sermon on the Mount it will be more clearer to you.
Yes, all sin is 'against God.' But you are assuming that it isn't sin when we do wrong to another person. When Jesus clearly points out that it is!
Good luck with your dinner tomorrow!
It's stiil amazing to me how two people can read a passage in the bible (sermon on the mount) and come aways with different meanings.
God sure does work in mysterious ways.
Msvoboda, once more: Murder, by definition, is a bad act. Bad acts are bad. Everyone can agree on that.
What everyone fails to agree on is that a bad act is sinful. "Sin" is a religious term. it has meaning only within a religious context. You are correct, then, to point me to a religious context, the Sermon on the Mount.
However, I have been at great pains to point out to you that I do not consider your Bible worth taking seriously. Therefore you are not furthering your argument by appealing to it. You are, in fact, having the exact same effect on me that a witch doctor shaking a feathered stick and shouting "Ooga booga" would have on you.
Speedwell,
Again... You miss the point. It doesn't matter if you use the 'religious word' sin or not. It is a matter of right and wrong. Any time that you do wrong it is a 'sin.' But I bet that you are a pluralist who doesn't believe in absolute truth... But if you aren't I don't know why this is so hard for you to grasp...
Sloppy, sloppy. You remind me of a child who approaches his mother with, "Mommy, I just thought of a fun game, play it with me!" When Mommy says, "Not right now, honey, I'm busy," the child laughs and shouts, "A hundred points for my side!"
"Sin" is a specific term your side thought up, Svoboda. I'm not playing your game. One last time, you are trying to apply a specifically religious term in a nonreligious context.
That is true whether or not you want to "smear" me (amusingly) with your pet epithet of "relativist." (As a matter of fact, I'm a card-carrying Objectivist, and I care what words mean, which is obviously more than you do.) Your imaginary friend is a layer of obfuscation between you and reality. I'm not the "relativist" here--you are.
Just remember, reality is that which doesn't go away when you stop believing in it.
"Just remember, reality is that which doesn't go away when you stop believing in it."
That was the smartest thing that you said! Whether I stop believing in God or not, he doesn't go away. Whether you ever believe in Him or not, he is still a reality. Well put, Speedwell!
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