Yet Another Unpleasant Truth
Note: “Mrs. Jane Ortega” and “Michael Ortega” mentioned below are real people whom I have come to know and been corresponding—only their names have been changed to protect their identities. And, uh…well, the letter pretty much explains the rest…
“Dear Mrs. Ortega,
I hope this email finds you doing well. Being that we have been acquainted with each other for some time now, and being that we have had the opportunity to look at the academic side of the problem of evil, I wanted to offer a finishing piece to “drive home,” as it were, what has been discussed.
Please understand that the things I will mention are not intended to be insulting or hurtful, but are to make clear to you that you have not taken to heart what we are debating. The problem of evil is an emotional argument, as well as a logical argument, and that is why the best Christian apologists in the world keep coming back to reconsider it. When one seeks to avoid the logical force of the problem, they are confronted with the emotional discomfort created by it, and this makes them reconsider the logical force of it once again. This is always the situation when people say the problem of evil “doesn’t affect” (your words) them. Like a sleeping pill, the problem hasn’t affected you because you haven’t digested it yet!
As you know, I met your son Michael at the bus station. That put me in touch with you, which, of course, I deem a good thing. But the unfortunate circumstance of your son is not a good thing. It is a terrible thing.
Each time I see him I think to myself how hard it must have been for you to raise a kid like that, and for forty-two years straight, be reminded of the fact that he will never be a normal man, that he will never pay his own bills, and that his brain will never stop requiring a handful of special pills everyday just to keep him out of trouble with the law. He will never get married and bring you grandchildren. He will never hold down a normal job or live in so much as a budget-sized apartment by himself. He will never host a thanksgiving dinner for the family, will never tend to his share of the chores, or even clean his own clothes. I deeply feel for you, and although, right about now you’re probably preparing to tell me how much of a joy and a gift from God you consider your son to be, even with all the heartache that raising a severely bi-polar/schizophrenic can be, I’m here to tell you no less forcefully that you don’t deserve it.
You don’t deserve any of this. You are a good woman, a wonderful person, and you deserved to get a son who would carry on your legacy, who would take care of you in your older years. But you don’t have that. Instead, your son has given you a bruised lip and broken furniture on more than one occasion. Your son consumed Palmolive dish soap and thumbtacks as a means to end his life earlier this year. Someone clueless enough to try and kill himself in a manner such as this is worthy of the utmost pity. That alone is a fountain of sadness. Your son has been arrested a great many times, and each time, could not make a single coherent statement in his defense. These are monumentally sad facts that I know you are aware of, but there is a reason for why I am reminding you of them—and I think you know that reason.
I want to tell you what your boy said to me the other day. I was standing guard in the bus terminal as usual when he approached me and immediately began to carry on about how cruel you were to him as a child, throwing him in snake pits and whipping him with thorns from rose bushes. As he stood in my face, twitching madly, I gently moved him out of my personal space and began for the fourth time this week to assure him that you did none of those things to him, that it was all in his mind. Failing to get through to him, I tried to convince him that even if he still feels that way about you that he should try and just move on with his life, and not go around telling complete strangers about it and having them come to me and ask to have him removed from the facility because he won’t leave them alone.
I could tell by looking into his distant eyes that he comprehended not a word I said. He went right on accusing you and the government of poisoning him with bitter herbs and by putting deadly sound waves in the Rod Stewart songs he likes to listen to. It’s so sad to see him walking around like that, in a never-clearing fog of paranoia and disorientation. I had to ask him to leave the station again a few days ago (but I think I already told you that the other day).
I know you love him and try to hug him before he goes to pushing you back away from him at your weekly monitored meetings. In tears, you assure him you love him, but it does no good. You do love him, and you always will, and no one’s saying you shouldn’t, but I’ve seen how you break down every time you are around him. It crushes you to see him in such pain and not be able to do anything about it or get close to him. That must hurt in a way that only a mother can know. He’s such a handsome man too—if only he had a normal mind.
Frankly, if your son is a gift from God, then God doesn’t think much of you at all. If such a higher power exists, he hates you or else couldn’t care less about you; there’s simply no other way of putting it. Now I don’t find it sound to believe that a deity hates you or loves you. You deserve so much better, but unfortunately, there is no God who will do you better.
For the last four or five conversations, we have been discussing the problem of evil, and in that time, you have acquitted your God of all charges of cruelty and evil. I would ask that you keep deliberating on this, and when you are ready, look your son in the eyes the next time you see him and ask yourself: “Do I really and truly deserve this?” What does your heart of hearts tell you? The only way the problem of evil can be ignored is when the problem is someone else’s, but when the problem becomes your own, it is impossible to ignore.
You are a very strong person, Jane, so strong that you have been able to take in stride and accept what would be too much for some people. Maybe you will one day be strong enough to accept yet another unpleasant truth.
Best regards,
(JH)”
36 comments:
Michael’s problem is not his alone. In the U.S. there are hundreds of thousands who struggle everyday with both paranoia and schizophrenia. Mental illness is a reality which, in most cases, can thankfully be controlled with modern drugs.
I’ve heard the theological claim that “Humans are not God” and we make mistakes. However, the fact is there is nothing either made by man or created by God that does not come with design flaws or mistakes in manufacturing or creation. The nice thing about what humans create is that most every thing comes with a warranty when new or a repair service when the period of the guarantee is over.
When God, on the other hand screws up, it’s up to “sinful, fallen and totally depraved” humans to clean us God’s mess.
Oh, religion tries to compensate for their God’s screw-ups with healing evangelist by the likes of Benny Hinn and Ernest Angley, but even they won’t touch birth defects!
It sure would make life simple again if Michael could only be brought to a healing Jesus type evangelist and have the demon or demons cast from him while all the people watching would marvel greatly and give God the praise, but mythology has a way of falling apart when faced with reality.
Damn, that is heart breaking. You didn’t pull any punches.
Behold atheistic compassion in action. Personally, I find it disgusting that you judge the value of a person based on their utility. So the kid may never produce grand children for his mother. So what? Does that somehow make him less valuable as a human being?
Hey, maybe if you raise your kids to believe your world view, they'll have the guts to put on a raft and send you out to sea to die when you're too old and feeble to productively contribute to society. Won't that be lovely.
Behold Theist intelligence in action. Darren, I don’t recall him saying the kid had no value. He was saying that the kid was dealt a really terrible hand and the mother as well. You are reading your preconceived prejudices into it. I notice you failed to address the point of the post about your god doing this to an innocent boy and his mother. But that’s okay. Just keep those fingers firmly planted in your ears and change the subject whenever you can. It’s worked for the past two thousand years, no reason it should be any less effective to the gullible today.
There is a wonderful blog written by a man suffering from schizophrenia - his work is inspirational and insightful. When presented with a "fallen person", I believe the faithful response is to respond with love (which doesn't include scrutinizing and cynicism but an honest appraisal of our capability to touch such). Thanks, and the best to you!
I read the autobiography of a 9 year old boy who suddenly started hearing voices, then lived years of hell until a new psychiatrist prescribed a new drug that immediately brought him relief (at age 35, I think) and the voices stopped. I think the title was "The Day the Voices Stopped" or something.
On a lighter note:
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/in_the_know_is_the_government
Bill Ross
http://bibleshockers.blogspot.com
wow, ok.
i will have to read the coments after posting, but this thought toward the post, i felt i should say.
I understand that your meaning to deevangalise the Woman or educate her, but does that mean destorying her?
I would be afraid of the back lash of her pent up depression, and rage toward her situation. All of the faith she has harbored in the efforts of copeing, and you yank the rug out...very clearly and cleverly, but what do you give her to stand on now that she stands on the daggers of reality?
Is your desire to destroy her cushions really in her better interest? Did you take glee in crushing her mental worldveiw?
Forgive my anger, i don't mean to "speak" as if i am yelling at you, i calmly ask and wonder about human compassion.
Was yours a compassionant act?
And please , how. What do you offer for her copeing now, is it ok becasue rather than praying she can now take some pills or maybe study yoga?
HI Joe,
has anyone expressed and interest or opinion about what is going on with his soul? Is it schizoprhenic too, or has it escaped somehow and is not being used? What's it doing in there? Whats going on with it?
Darren said...
YOU said...
Behold atheistic compassion in action.
MY reply...
You are just plain ridiculous. In case you haven't been surfing the net very long, let me point out for you that atheists tend to be big liberals who go the other direction...towards compassion for everyone. I am somewhat of an exception.
But let me ask you, How many atheists do you know who value a person based only on what they can do??? I bet you know none. Well, you know at least one--me (and that with qualification). Even I know of virtually no one who thinks like me on this issue. So criticize me for my views, and not atheists in general.
YOU said...
Personally, I find it disgusting that you judge the value of a person based on their utility. So the kid may never produce grand children for his mother. So what? Does that somehow make him less valuable as a human being?
MY reply...
Yes, more or less, it does. One should be judged on their utility value for the most part. Our society preserves the sick and the weak, and this weakens us overall. Sounds horrible, I know, but it is the truth. Read my second book for more on this.
Besides, the point of the article was not to deal with utilitarian/life concerns, but to break the surface of someone who does like so many do--see only the good in life. This sweet and fairly well-read Catholic woman needed a tough, eye-opening slap in the face. Maybe it opened her eyes to how blind she has been, struggling with the false belief that a deity loves her. I hope it did.
YOU said...
Hey, maybe if you raise your kids to believe your world view, they'll have the guts to put on a raft and send you out to sea to die when you're too old and feeble to productively contribute to society. Won't that be lovely.
MY reply...
I'll make you a personal promise, pal. If I'm around when I'm too old and feeble to contribute to society, I'll look you up and you can personally put me on a raft to die at sea? How's that? Seriously, do we have a deal??
I happen to believe their comes a time when everyone of us should gladly die well before the degeneration of old age sets in (no, I'm not kidding.) I really believe that.
(JH)
Lee Randolph said...
HI Joe,
has anyone expressed and interest or opinion about what is going on with his soul? Is it schizoprhenic too, or has it escaped somehow and is not being used? What's it doing in there? Whats going on with it?
MY reply...
I've often wondered that myself. God creates all these screwed up souls and THEN gives them brains. So, I'm led to believe that a person with a screwy brain probably has a screwed up soul too. But we don't know. The way preachers talk over the graves of fallen sickos, it's as though God's going to forget about all their sins committed from having messed up minds and just save them! So go figure!
(JH)
Insanezenmistress said...
YOU said...
I understand that your meaning to deevangalise the Woman or educate her, but does that mean destorying her?
MY reply....
Yes it does. There's no other way. Christianity, as is all theism, is a way of hiding from reality. Atheism is a comeback to reality. To get her to see the point clearly, I had to use a close-to-home example. Failure to use such examples is to fail to successfully make the argument of the problem off evil. The mixture of logic and emotion in the PoE is amazing, actually.
YOU said...
I would be afraid of the back lash of her pent up depression, and rage toward her situation. All of the faith she has harbored in the efforts of copeing, and you yank the rug out...very clearly and cleverly, but what do you give her to stand on now that she stands on the daggers of reality?
MY reply...
You make a good point; is the truth best known in this situation? To this, I respond: yes. You have to know her. With many people, a debate would never get this far and there would be no call to "go there." As I said in the article, she's a strong person, and she can stand it.
YOU said...
Is your desire to destroy her cushions really in her better interest? Did you take glee in crushing her mental worldveiw?
MY reply...
Yes, because she was anxious to argue with me at the beginning. She pursued the discussion. And no, I take no glee in destroying anyone's mental worldview--even one I believe to be false. But in a way, I did relish putting too missionary of a spirit in check. That's the way it's got to be...sort of a "Get back, bitch!" mentality! Hey, the evangelicals force our hand!
YOU said...
Forgive my anger, i don't mean to "speak" as if i am yelling at you, i calmly ask and wonder about human compassion.
Was yours a compassionant act?
And please , how. What do you offer for her copeing now, is it ok becasue rather than praying she can now take some pills or maybe study yoga?
MY reply...
Compassionate? Hmm. Don't know. It was "tough love" that she probably wasn't ready for, but she "asked for it." It's not like I go around slamming people facing crisis' with high-gear arguments.
How will she cope? If she de-converts, she'll cope like I did! You think your world is going to come crashing down in a loss-of-faith crisis, but it doesn't. You rebuild and keep going, as would (will) she.
(JH)
Hi Joe,
I'm glad you published this. I am preparing an article addressing some issues this raises, like the soul for example.
Another issue is one that I addressed in my most recent article, the problem of the heap and principles of morality.
Schizophrenia has genetic markers. It is passed down through families. There is a correlation to famous authors and other creative intellects and even Genius and schizophrenia in families. The more of these genetic incidents you have the more schizophrenia you exhibit. So now if a person has only a small amount, then we can infer and verify that some of those markers are related to creativity and Genius. For those of you that think I'm on a slippery slope, please refer to the info at the DANA institute on the relationhip between Madness, Genius and creativity. I have a huge interest in mental illness and reasoning. My mother and my grandfather on my dads side (who ironically was a preacher) suffered mental illness. Additionally and anecdotally, I have always been very creative and imaginitive and I get called "Genius" pretty often.
A related bit of info is that researchers in MIT have corrected inherited autism and retardation in mice using genetic engineering.
So now, back to business, since this is something we can correlate genetically, then how much genetic information does it take to make a schizophrenic, and how much less or more to make a genius or artist etc.
How much of our behavior is coded genetically and what relationship does that have to any proposed 'soul' that is indwelling? How much of that information absolves our responsibility to god for our behavior?
If some of these christians can get stop smacking you with the red herring of righteous indignation, maybe one of them can comment on your point (which seems to be an instance of the problem of needless suffering/evil) or how genetic correlation to behavior relates to our soul and gods judgment.
Thanks, Lee!
Glad I sparked a little more "genius" in the ole' noggen!
Seems like I read something in sci-am years back about the connection between natural selection and schitzophrenia, that there was an advantage it had.
I, for one, would be very interested in learning more about the relationship between creativity, genius, and mental illness. How it relates to God and judgment only makes an already deep subject even deeper.
On a light, observatory note: Such a sad world where we have defective units walking around, supposedly to the praise and glory of the Spirit who made them--and once in a great, GREAT while, one of those defective units turns out more gifted than the working units! Words fail me!
(JH)
hello Joe
Thank you for responding.
I accept that you where both having such conversations long before you wrote this to her.
And from reading your key posts i can see she must have known to whom she spoke, and was well sure of your position when she engaged.
And i do not doubt her strength.
It is not my method but no one said you had to do things my way.I am more of a bleeding heart than you, so be it.
As to the spiritaul fate of the mentally disabled. I have always been given that "age of acountibility thing" and have believed for myself that uopn death the limitations of the physical being dont exist. The soul person or Its mind would as it where become clear and that there would be a reveiw of life.
Of course christians dont teach that but as i grew up i always had the impression that the so called Judgement was not just god handing out eternal death sentences but a time of evaluation and reflection and learning. so let that be my diesitic theory about the fate of the dead.
Butch mentioned that no one has gotten to the point of the post ( in his veiw) being that "Their" GOD did it.
Bare with me on this bit. But we can agree that if any part of the world is free from the influence of religion it would be the animal world. And in that place nature agrees with Joe Holman about the weak become food for the strong so in that place there are no or not many Schizophrenic, or Mangled beings, unless of course the mangled finds a way to still be usefull.
In the human world, It is somewhat the same, such as the mangled like Stephen Hawkings, and the schiztophrenic like Mr.(?) Nash have made themselves usefull. But by and large the others will have been societies Problems.
The natural world would be a place where "god" would totally rule, the rules of that place are unrelenting, be usefull or die. And their are instances of the need to give extra ordinary care in that world such as animals nurseing prey as their own young. Or that pack makeing compensations for the wounded, and disfigured.
This can parrelle to our world in that some of our disabled people do provide the "joy" of careing to the parents. As humans with the ability to distugish we cant make some kind of law, kill the retards, kill the schizto, kill the mangled before they live.
But i digrees far from my topic.
What about the indictment against 'god' for Doing it?
Does God get too much blame? First off in "his" natural world the standard is set. But we being more evolved can bend that standard, which is also according to 'his' natural world, humans being able to create higher order society, with different rules.
I wonder if many of our unfortunates are caused by our own doing. I know a man whose daughter was retarded, due to the embiblical cord wrapping around her during birth, the natural world would have killed her but man's science saved her. That person was for ever 6 years old, and a joy to her Father. Did god do it?
Babies born with flippers due to thalidimyde, a birth control pill made by a human to regulate the natural world, did god do it?
We can try to blame the intangible, but if your Atheist the only being to blame is the tangible. If your dieist you still have only the tangible to blame, as the intangible becomes a scape goat or a copeing divice.
If we say God did do it, then we have only the tangible available to correct it. IF we chose to kill off the undesireables then we will find ourselves in agreement with 'god' anyway, as the perscription of the natural world suggests.
Could we argue that killing them all would be obedience to the intangible, rather than our free self will?
Can we agree that many of our problems with evil existing are the doings of Man? Man murders, man is greedy, man turns a blind eye to suffering, man stands about screaming at intangibles and clinging to the unknown hope to fix everything.
For many of the doers of the evils, it is his own will and not 'god's' that he obeys. or shall i say conscience.
To become a muderer one has to suspend a portion of their humanity and mind and blieve in their version of reason in oder to preform the act.
Man becomes Disconnected form his actions, and their results, man rationalizes.
In the natural world, there are not rapists,nor empires, nor murder for enjoyment. (that i know of anyway)
Though i believe in a God thing, i dont hold him accountable, because i can see my hand in much of the evil in my world. And the god thing becomes more of an Ideal i should hope to achieve.
Justine
Yes, more or less, it does. One should be judged on their utility value for the most part. Our society preserves the sick and the weak, and this weakens us overall. Sounds horrible, I know, but it is the truth.
Wow. I can see your point in wanting to be direct...sort of a fundamentalist tendency to not care about the impact as long the end justifies the means, but this is ugly and scary. This is the logical outcome of atheism. It reminds me of the movie Logan's Run where all people the age of thirty (?) were vaporized to allow room for the younger generations...until one of the "police" turned thirty.
Satan couldn't have done a better job of instilling self pity or discontent in an already difficult situation.
Hi Jennifer,
put your red herring away.
This is the logical outcome of atheism.
no it isn't. It is one mans opinion. Its not my opinion. It is missing some qualifiers to make it valid. Kind of like me saying that the logical outcome of christianity is to give all your money away and go be a missionary in Africa and only take your sandals and your clothes.
There is an emotional element to reason that can't be escaped by most people atheist or not. To see examples of this you can go look at the research for morality. There seems to be some type of natural algorithmic 'escape' hatch out of that kind of utilitarian reasoning built into us.
In other words, its easy to say but not so easy to do. It spans categories of people (just in case you want to fall back onto the 'gods law is written on our hearts' universal morality thing). Its too rudimentary and inconsistent to say its divine (if I understand the research correctly).
Lee,
I've tucked it away. You're right and I do think highly of you and several others who seek to live a life of compassion.
I retract that part of my post.
Insanezenmistress said...
YOU said…
hello Joe. Thank you for responding.
MY reply…
No problem. Though your spelling and grammar are horrible and your logic is highly skewed, I like your honest and broad thinking skills. I read some of your blog too. You are honest and you say what you feel. Kudos!
YOU said…
As to the spiritaul fate of the mentally disabled. I have always been given that "age of acountibility thing" and have believed for myself that uopn death the limitations of the physical being dont exist. The soul person or Its mind would as it where become clear and that there would be a reveiw of life.
MY reply…
But you can’t say that. It is not logically coherent. For you see, if a person’s mind is sick and cannot comprehend certain aspects of knowledge (trust, patience, etc.) then that person cannot be freed of an earthly body and suddenly have that knowledge. If you were never on earth, one could not say that a set of car keys would suddenly BE in your coat pocket, right? Knowledge, like inanimate objects, must be implanted, and this poses another problem for God-believers. The handicapped will have to be miraculously made ready for heaven because they won’t have the mental, and therefore, spiritual hardware to function there either.
YOU said…
Of course christians dont teach that but as i grew up i always had the impression that the so called Judgement was not just god handing out eternal death sentences but a time of evaluation and reflection and learning. so let that be my diesitic theory about the fate of the dead.
MY reply…
So you’re a deist then?? Not Christian?
YOU said…
Bare with me on this bit. But we can agree that if any part of the world is free from the influence of religion it would be the animal world. And in that place nature agrees with Joe Holman about the weak become food for the strong so in that place there are no or not many Schizophrenic, or Mangled beings, unless of course the mangled finds a way to still be usefull.
In the human world, It is somewhat the same, such as the mangled like Stephen Hawkings, and the schiztophrenic like Mr.(?) Nash have made themselves usefull. But by and large the others will have been societies Problems.
The natural world would be a place where "god" would totally rule, the rules of that place are unrelenting, be usefull or die. And their are instances of the need to give extra ordinary care in that world such as animals nurseing prey as their own young. Or that pack makeing compensations for the wounded, and disfigured.
This can parrelle to our world in that some of our disabled people do provide the "joy" of careing to the parents. As humans with the ability to distugish we cant make some kind of law, kill the retards, kill the schizto, kill the mangled before they live.
MY reply…
Not sure I understand where you’re going here, and I know we couldn’t (and shouldn’t) make more utilitarian laws now. Society has gone a different path. It’s really too late to change, but we can sure as hell make a few big changes, like fight to get euthanasia and abortion more accepted. That’s a start.
YOU said…
Does God get too much blame? First off in "his" natural world the standard is set. But we being more evolved can bend that standard, which is also according to 'his' natural world, humans being able to create higher order society, with different rules.
MY reply…
But why would a benevolent creator set up such laws as “his” own? It doesn’t add up. That we can supercede nature was never in dispute.
YOU said…
I wonder if many of our unfortunates are caused by our own doing. I know a man whose daughter was retarded, due to the embiblical cord wrapping around her during birth, the natural world would have killed her but man's science saved her. That person was for ever 6 years old, and a joy to her Father. Did god do it?
Babies born with flippers due to thalidimyde, a birth control pill made by a human to regulate the natural world, did god do it?
MY reply…
Yes, to both questions. When a result is unknown OR beyond our control, God (would) should step in. Please explain why he doesn’t, ok?
YOU said…
We can try to blame the intangible, but if your Atheist the only being to blame is the tangible. If your dieist you still have only the tangible to blame, as the intangible becomes a scape goat or a copeing divice.
If we say God did do it, then we have only the tangible available to correct it. IF we chose to kill off the undesireables then we will find ourselves in agreement with 'god' anyway, as the perscription of the natural world suggests.
Could we argue that killing them all would be obedience to the intangible, rather than our free self will?
MY reply…
Not exactly sure what you’re saying here. Please clarify.
YOU said…
Can we agree that many of our problems with evil existing are the doings of Man? Man murders, man is greedy, man turns a blind eye to suffering, man stands about screaming at intangibles and clinging to the unknown hope to fix everything.
For many of the doers of the evils, it is his own will and not 'god's' that he obeys. or shall i say conscience.
MY reply…
We don’t disagree on the point that many of man’s evils he brings on himself, but (a) there are many evils still unaccounted for, and (b) what kind of a father sets up a playpen with a knife in it?? Evil should never have been, period.
YOU said…
To become a muderer one has to suspend a portion of their humanity and mind and blieve in their version of reason in oder to preform the act. Man becomes Disconnected form his actions, and their results, man rationalizes.
MY reply…
Wrong. Wrong, big time! Most murders are accidental and not planned. Someone gets too mad, and in a drunken state, kills his best friend. And even in those cases when murder is premeditated, we find that a mental disorder is usually the cause.
YOU said…
In the natural world, there are not rapists,nor empires, nor murder for enjoyment. (that i know of anyway)
MY reply…
Oh, yes, there are. Rape, like masturbation, is found in every sexual species of animal.
YOU said…
Though i believe in a God thing, i dont hold him accountable, because i can see my hand in much of the evil in my world. And the god thing becomes more of an Ideal i should hope to achieve.
MY reply…
But Justine, then you are copping out. You are resigning that you don’t hold your higher power accountable because of some (your and other human’s) evils. That’s no good, my dear.
And besides, are you saying that you really DON’T believe in God, but that this “higher power,” this “God” idea is only a way to improve one’s self? Are you saying that it’s not really real, just something to strive for?? Please clarify.
(JH)
Jennifer said...
Lee,
I've tucked it away. You're right and I do think highly of you and several others who seek to live a life of compassion.
I retract that part of my post.
MY reply...
I'm glad you value honesty and humility enough to admit that, Jennifer. I sincerely mean that.
But I am a little offended. I'm offended that you think I don't aim to live a life of compassion. You act like I just want to cause pain and death. And that's insulting. Of course, I want compassion. Who doesn't? Your condescension sickens me. Before you go around calling me un-compassionate, consider a few things.
If you were paralyzed from the neck down and decided to end your own life, guess what your right-to-life friends would say if you asked them to help you? They'd turn you down, you know. Who would deliver you from your pain, from your fleshly prison? It wouldn't be the right-to-lifers. It'd be me. Yes, dear. I would be your savior. Think about it. I am not the cruel one. You (and your ilk) are the cruel ones.
And guess who's trying to give your aged parents some dignity in their older years? Not you, not your church, but me. No one should have to stay around and have their diapers changed in their "golden" (literally) years. Your people are making my right-to-die plans much harder to enact. But someday, you might very well stand in my camp.
I've broken the spell. I can see again. I hope one day you can see how sick your beliefs really are... how repugnant, revolting, nauseating they are. Even through a computer screen, seeing your words makes it so damn hard to look at you.
You and your churches are scaring people, hastling them to bring deformed and retarded children into this world to endure lives of misery. You do this by opposing abortion. I'd do the humane thing. I'd abort them, but you? No, you'll subject them to hell on earth to get them to heaven above.
And lest we forget, why are we even having this discussion? Let's ask ourselves who it is that is REALLY cruel here; it's your deity, my sweet! That's what we're talking about. That's how all this started. He saw fit to bring defective units into this world, at their - and everyone else's - hurt. He created them KNOWING their woe, and yet created them anyway. I call him out for it, and I'M the cruel one?? No, he's the cruel one, not I.
And you...well, you don't mean to be cruel. You just follow in your master's footsteps. But like it or not, that still makes you a monster.
You're a holy monster.
(JH)
Joe wrote to Jennifer, "You're a holy monster". Now what color of herring would that be to follow that line of logic?? Or is it an ad hominem attack?
Label it what you may, but if Jennifer is a monster, give me ten of her! Raising offenses and maintaining a record of wrongs after one has offered a humble apology and using anger to manipulate people - what is that? That is the way of nonbelief.
Yes, give the world a hundred people like Jennifer! She is a great blessing!
Martin
Uh,oh! What's this??
I have stumbled upon a meeting of the monsters!
"Rooooaaaarrr!!!"
AAAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!!
Blogger Martin Gamble said...
Yes, give the world a hundred people like Jennifer! She is a great blessing!
Martin
MY reply...
Yeah...good call! Give us people who tell mothers that they should carry to term a child we know will have Spina Bifida!
(JH)
Manifesting Mini Me (MMM) said...
Joe wrote to Jennifer, "You're a holy monster". Now what color of herring would that be to follow that line of logic?? Or is it an ad hominem attack?
MY reply...
Well, I call it True Descriptive Herring!
YOU said...
Raising offenses and maintaining a record of wrongs after one has offered a humble apology and using anger to manipulate people - what is that? That is the way of nonbelief.
MY reply...
Uh, maybe you drank a little bit to much Jesus Juice, so I'll forgive this bit of rampant stupidity, but you missed the part where I gave her credit for apologizing for her hasty generalization earlier.
The ironic thing is, you don't give me credit for that, and at the same time, you commit the SAME fallacy she committed by accusing atheists of "maintaining a record of wrongs after an apology and using anger to manipulate people - what is that? It is the way of nonbelief."
As usual, you've let your inquisition-like hatred of atheists skew your already non-sequitor thinking.
But hey--at least Jennifer has a friend to swing on the swingsets with! She needs one about now!
(JH)
Hi Joe ~
Thanks for devoting time towards responding here.
You wrote (to Jennifer) "You act like I just want to cause pain and death."
How would I know by your comments that you have retired from causing pain?
Then you wrote: "As usual, you've let your inquisition-like hatred of atheists skew your already non-sequitor thinking."
Did I use the term "atheist"??? I don't think so. Did I use the term "nonbelief?" Yes, specifically so.
Is it "inquisition like hatred" to interrupt the enablement of grudges and justifying revenge and punishment upon one another? You can decide for yourself.
*smiles*
Joe thanx again.
And thank you for adressing my argument. My appoligies for having very askew logic, but if i dont test myself against others how will i learn? As for my grammer,I hope it improves also.
My Christianity has been singing it's swan song for many years now and within the last few weeks finnaly croaked. I still like the idea of their being a god and can't grasp the idea of being nothingness when i die. Please don't yank my rug form me, i will step off on my own when i am ready.
Is my god real or a goal? Hard to answer. Buddhists dont belive in gods, yet they talk of a buddha mind. My "god" would be akin to their understanding of buddha mind.
To clairfy on the middle of my arguement.
"""We can try to blame the intangible, but if your Atheist the only being to blame is the tangible. If your dieist you still have only the tangible to blame, as the intangible becomes a scape goat or a copeing divice.
If we say God did do it, then we have only the tangible available to correct it. IF we chose to kill off the undesireables then we will find ourselves in agreement with 'god' anyway, as the perscription of the natural world suggests.
Could we argue that killing them all would be obedience to the intangible, rather than our free self will?""""
I mean that the diest cannot blame god because clearly the god thing is not helping to change things on a massive scale.Perhaps fixing everything is not his function. And the Atheist can't blame god because there is none. We both have ourselves to blame.
To which you have countered but if there is a god, then evil would not (should not) exist. I think that can't be logical because there is this evil no matter what we belive.
SO if there is a god, those who care about him ought to be doing their part to not be evil, and if there is no god those who live on earth ought to be doing their part to not be evil.
Real life fact is neither one of us are, as a whole, changing the world for the beter.
And you mentioned murder and mental disorder being linked and i agree they are, yet there are greed murders, deaths that occur due to selfish leadship, pleanty of things with nothing to do with a mind defunct.
And finally as to 'i am copping out for not blameing my god,' and """For you see, if a person’s mind is sick and cannot comprehend certain aspects of knowledge (trust, patience, etc.) then that person cannot be freed of an earthly body and suddenly have that knowledge"""
well what can i say about that? I haven't thunk it though very far. I think that the mental handicaps are due to physical troubles, and poor life training and that in the after life that person could be in an environment of healing even if it is by reincarnation.
As for god's fault i believe each aspect of life here is made for different levels of beings. Which includes evils.
I am not sure if i have clairifyed a thing. I think i am trying to explian somehting that can't be explained.(or not explained by myself anyway)
But i hope that my being a diest and not a christian, does not disqualify me from entering the fray. It seems many here are not JUST debunking christinaity but also belife in god.
Justine
Joe
I did not address....
But why would a benevolent creator set up such laws as “his” own? It doesn’t add up.
Could it be that his benevolence IS what we see? Oppurtunities to do what humans do best, improve their environments, solve their problems, grow in knowledge? (or for that matter our freedom to sit in our own shit like the viruses we are)
Imagine if "God" created the world we think would be perfect, given our different minds, industrialness and creativity, What would there be for us to DO in this creation if it where already "heaven"?
The world we would have and the activities then available to us in a perfect place would be just as boring and lifeless as what you argue heaven would be like for the christian.
And we would not have earned it. This world as it is with all its evils is a place where we get what we earn, as a collective whole.
Justine
Hi Joe,
you were right to point out that Christians will be the ones to force me to allow my loved ones to languish with cancer and bed sores, asking why god hasn't taken them yet, puzzling over the meaning to their suffering, I watched it last year and posted a couple of rants related to it.
Another thing some Christians are very willing to do is withhold medical care and vaccinations. I know that I and one Christian commenter on this thread have had a disagreement over his/her belief against vaccinations. Arguably one of the greatest achievements of the 20th century was to eliminate small pox and polio. Not participating in vaccines puts us all at risk and undoes that very scientific and altruistic project.
Joe,
Thank you for your sincere acknowledgment of my intention to be honest.
I would like to take more time to answer but it's late and I'm going to make this as brief as I can.
I know from comments that you've made in the past that you have compassion. I heard in your post that because you care about the state of people, you want this man to be whole for his benefit as well as the benefit to society. I understand your comment about people like him being a drain on the fully functioning people of the world. I think the reason you believe that is because you care about people and you want people to reach their full potential. Maybe?
BUT...I did intend to offend you. You are guilty of just what you accuse me of. You don't know my personal views about euthanasia or abortion yet you lump me in with everyone else. Just so you know I am not ignorant, before I knew God I had an abortion. No one told me I would grieve for years and feel horrible guilt. You know what God said when I finally asked Him to take away the pain and release me from the burden? He told me it was not the worst thing I could have done and He reminded me of the first commandment...breaking that one would be the worst. Not out of fear, but out of love.
About euthanasia...there's a very good movie called, The Sea Inside that is thought provoking. It's a complicated issue that I don't have a strong opinion about yet.
Here's the punch for me...
I think it was just plain mean of you to take the most vulnerable part of a mother's life and throw it in her face. As if she has not suffered and agonized over the responsibility of raising her son. I know a woman who recently left her husband and took their youngest son because she wanted a live, "without Bobby". She had a taste of what it was like to be away from the constant care of her severely handicapped son and now she's gone, leaving her husband to make the money and find care for his son. Is that what you're after?, because I can assure you this mother you speak of has been tempted by that before...anyone would be.
It's not fair and it's horrible that people suffer...but since that's the way it is, it's better to reach out in love with a helping hand rather than take pot shots at an open wound. Maybe you have offered to help and to work with the parents...maybe you have offered to lighten their load by listening and learning about how to interact with their son or how to NOT say anything that doesn't need to be said to increase their burden. You must know that every new person they meet through their son is full of advice and preaching...are you just another one? Be offended, it's OK with me. My dad was a program director in our community and school district for developmentally delayed and disabled kids and adults...I've seen it all and the parents are tired and frustrated.
MMM and Martin,
Thank you for your kind words, I'll try not to let them go to my head. :)
You're welcome on my swing set any time! Roar on.
Lee,
You called me out very respectfully so I'll come to the table on the vaccinations.
I do *not* disagree with vaccinations. I *do* think they were and can continue to be one of the greatest discovery of our time.
What I cannot stomach is the manner in which the cultures of some of the vaccines are grown AND the overuse of vaccinations. There are also a number of modern autoimmune conditions which may be linked to over vaccinating babies.
In Europe, since many here thing highly of the area, Rubella is not vaccinated against and for good reason! If a woman contracts this type of measles while pregnant, her baby will most likely die or be badly damaged. If girls get it young it is very treatable and beneficial to be immune and safe during a later pregnancy.
My position on vaccinations is to use them as needed and to grow the cultures ethically...on ethical tissue.
I read something similar, by a preacher once:
"There was a woman whom I'll call Mrs. Howard. She was a widow whose life revolved around her thirty-year-old son, Johnny Fred, who was physically deformed, his body twisted like a gnarled tree, he was mentally retarded and his speech was garbled. Every day Mrs. Howard parched and boiled peanuts and sacked them in brown paper bags. In turn, Johnny Fred would maneuver his convoluted body up and down Beulah Avenue, selling those peanuts to passersby.
"One day she asked me, `Preacher, why did God let Johnny Fred be born the way he is?'
"How could I say to this baffled mother, `God loves you. And this God of love has blessed you with a deformed, mentally deficient son who hobbles down Beulah Avenue selling peanuts while truck drivers frighten him by blasting their horns?'
"I think I would have made some sense if I'd said, `Mrs. Howard, I don't know the answer to your question. Here you are a widow with a deformed son, living in a shack behind a gas station, supporting yourself and Johnny Fred on parched peanuts. Frankly, Mrs. Howard, I think you're eating chicken s---.' ("Eating chicken s---" is a Southern expression that means a person was experiencing undeserved and irrational troubles.)...
"Repeatedly I met people who were hurting, experiencing a flood of irrational sorrow...As Tylertown's preacher I confronted a prevalence of pain among my people. My `coherence problem' has never gone away. I've never escaped from the shadowy side of life. I've seen children wasting away from leukemia. I've watched living bodies rot from lupus and cancer and cystic fibrosis. I've been with parents moments after a child has been killed by lightning. [Or, moments after a son or daughter has told their stunned fundamentalist Christian parents, "I'm gay!" - ED.] I've encountered people locked into deformed bodies, bodies twisted from birth - going through life in wheelchairs...And I've seen people existing into a senile and pointless old age, nature's final insult...Most of this human suffering - it seemed to me - was undeserved and served no purpose...
"Sooner or later every person with eyes to see and ears to hear stumbles into what theologians call `the problem of evil.' If God is a heavenly father who loves his children, why does he give some of them chicken s--- to eat, sending them leukemia and twisted bodies and broken hearts and minds? Did not Jesus teach, `What man of you, if his son asks him for a loaf, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him?'...
"In the presence of such undeserved suffering I saw the point of Robert Frost's couplet:
Forgive, O Lord, my little jokes on Thee,
And I'll forget Thy great big one on me.
"Why are some people brought into this world to hobble down Beulah Avenue in grotesquely-twisted bodies and to devote their life's energy to peddling peanuts? Christian thinkers tend to avoid questions like that. They leave the sad dimension of life to the Buddhas and Schopenhauers and Clarence Darrows and Mark Twains. But the tragic dimension of life will not go away. It causes us from a human viewpoint - the only viewpoint us humans have - to question the nature of God. So I was able, at least, to understand why a Tylertown Baptist said to me, `Preacher, the greatest fear I have is when I die and pass over to the other side I'll discover God is the bastard I've sometimes feared him to be.'"
CLAYTON SULLIVAN, "FALLEN SPARROWS" IN CALLED TO PREACH, CONDEMNED TO SURVIVE: THE EDUCATION OF CLAYTON SULLIVAN (MERCER UNIV. PRESS, 1985)
"The Most Provocative Things Ever Said About the way God "designed" the cosmos"
&
"Why We Believe in a Designer"
Both edited by Edward T. Babinski and located at
talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/4
Hi Jennifer! "Roar" to you too! :-)
I never thought of myself as a "roarer" before - I'm somewhat edified..
Obviously, there are different approaches and viewpoints towards those who are disabled and suffering/pain. A Dutch priest by the name of Henri Nouwen wrote compellingly about his relationships (after retiring from a high profile position) as a priest at Daybreak Camp for severely handicapped children. He was a very open, vulnerable and courageous lover of people. While most people stand by and scrutinize and judge and take offense, he drew close and cared. There are those people who want to serve and care for those who experience difficulties.
However, the fact is there is nothing either made by man or created by God that does not come with design flaws or mistakes in manufacturing or creation.
What are the design flaws in God's creation that do not have to do with the by-products of sin? Our immune systems are weakened by several factors (emotional, environmental, genetic etc..) and our genetic structure is fragile, relying on several factors as well.
If all creation were walking in tune with the Creator, wouldn't His design show it's perfection?
I find it interesting that the Jews were not as affected by the plague due to their hygiene practices. Their death rate fell to around 5% of the rest of the population simply by following guidelines in the OT.
Are you saying perfection means impervious regardless of influence?
Hi, Jennifer!
Thanks for the kind invitation.
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