Prosperity as Salvation and Government Taxation
Back in the late sixties and early seventies there was an African-American radio evangelist called Reverend Ike. He made no excuses of why he was on the radio: To get money.
Rev. Ike coined phrases such as: “The more you pay, the harder I pray.” “Some people need a checkup from the neck up!” and “Don’t send in that chicken feed, give me those green frog skins!”
Though I thought it was funny and no real evangelist would ever be so brazen, I must admit I have been proven wrong and the Prosperity Gospel is alive and well more than ever today!
Although I have not heard Rev. Ike on the air from for more than 30 years, his absents has been filled with Prosperity Preachers (the Gospel of Health and Wealth) by the likes of Kenneth Copeland, Binny Hinn, Mike Murdock and Richard Roberts to name but a few. Most are reaching the multi-million dollar level in personal income and some, such as Kenneth Copeland (as reported last night on the CBS evening news last night), have become multi-billionaires.
With the blessings of the Lord Jesus Christ, CBS reported the Rev. Copeland has a fleet of jet air craft with the last one purchased at $22 million dollars. All his jets are storied and land at Copeland’s ministry's own private airport.
It was reported that Evangelist Copeland has personal and family holdings in oil, aviation, real estate, cattle and a number of other for profit enterprises all paid for though income directly from preaching the Gospel of Prosperity (you give God a hundred dollars and He will pour out His blessing upon you and bless you ten fold! Hey, it's in the Bible).
The United States Congress is now investigating Rev. Copeland along with a number of other big name televangelist for tax evasion which, if Evangelist Copeland is convicted, could cost the world of the Prosperity Preachers millions of dollars and time in prison. And yes, as these Prosperity evangelists have already claimed, Satan himself is behind this attack.
If I was a believer in the Prosperity Gospel, I would argue (as they have in their defense) that they believe and live what they preach! Proof is that God (though the Lord Jesus Christ) as abundantly poured out His blessings on them!
Rev. Ike coined phrases such as: “The more you pay, the harder I pray.” “Some people need a checkup from the neck up!” and “Don’t send in that chicken feed, give me those green frog skins!”
Though I thought it was funny and no real evangelist would ever be so brazen, I must admit I have been proven wrong and the Prosperity Gospel is alive and well more than ever today!
Although I have not heard Rev. Ike on the air from for more than 30 years, his absents has been filled with Prosperity Preachers (the Gospel of Health and Wealth) by the likes of Kenneth Copeland, Binny Hinn, Mike Murdock and Richard Roberts to name but a few. Most are reaching the multi-million dollar level in personal income and some, such as Kenneth Copeland (as reported last night on the CBS evening news last night), have become multi-billionaires.
With the blessings of the Lord Jesus Christ, CBS reported the Rev. Copeland has a fleet of jet air craft with the last one purchased at $22 million dollars. All his jets are storied and land at Copeland’s ministry's own private airport.
It was reported that Evangelist Copeland has personal and family holdings in oil, aviation, real estate, cattle and a number of other for profit enterprises all paid for though income directly from preaching the Gospel of Prosperity (you give God a hundred dollars and He will pour out His blessing upon you and bless you ten fold! Hey, it's in the Bible).
The United States Congress is now investigating Rev. Copeland along with a number of other big name televangelist for tax evasion which, if Evangelist Copeland is convicted, could cost the world of the Prosperity Preachers millions of dollars and time in prison. And yes, as these Prosperity evangelists have already claimed, Satan himself is behind this attack.
If I was a believer in the Prosperity Gospel, I would argue (as they have in their defense) that they believe and live what they preach! Proof is that God (though the Lord Jesus Christ) as abundantly poured out His blessings on them!
24 comments:
To watch CBS News where they talk about Copeland ministries, you can watch it here (it is about 11 minutes into the program, the 2nd segment).
that is totally unfair to try and judge the truth Christianity by those guys. Those guys are abusing it and everyone knows it. the vast majority of Christians know that.
I think Rev Ike was always considered a cult leader.
The vast majority of Christians know this? Are you kidding? Why are these people still thriving and still making billions? It take a hell of a lot of poor old ladies paying out their life savings for these guys to make this kind of money. Leaches on society, they are.
yeah, because that's what christianity is all about.. good call, mccall :-P
even you should know better..but then again, maybe not
J.L. Hinman and thoughtcrossed have thoroughly embraced the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. You two act as though there is some way to tell a Christian from a "Christian". When citing statistics indicating how widespread and successful Christianity is, are you so careful in excluding these "Christians"? I imagine not.
i am not saying that you can't be successful and be a christian at the same time. they are in their work for the money.. which is a problem.. and they are have terrible doctrine with their health and wealth crap that morons like you try to make out to be regular christianity.
Shygetz wrote: "J.L. Hinman and thoughtcrossed have thoroughly embraced the "No True Scotsman" fallacy."
The "No True Scotsman" refers to discerning an argument based on denial and dysfunctional alliances - JL and Thoughtcrossed did not say a Christian would never do such a thing - as a believer, I know God loves the likes of Mr. Copeland (and in the 7 letters to the churches, Y'shua fully acknowledges there are followers who function at various levels of faith), but does Mr. Copeland love God??? By faith, I have come to experience and recognize that there is a progressive relinquishment of proprietary pursuits. I respect that an individual is responsible for actualizing and expressing their level of faith in acts of love.
Concerning the comments made by J.L. Hinman and Thoughtcrossed.
Let us look at the facts and be real. Once a evangelist becomes larger than life, he becomes the savior himself as a cult figure and his empire becomes a family run business.
Some facts:
Oral Roberts (ORU)benefactor son Richard Roberts
Pat Robertson (700 Club) benefactor son Gordon Robertson
Billy Graham benefactor son Franklin Graham and now a grandson
Jim Bakker (former PTL) benefactor son Jamie Bakker
Jimmy Swaggart benefactor son Donnie Swaggart
Paul Crouch (TBN) benefactor son Paul Crouch, Jr.
Kenneth Copeland benefactor’s wife Gloria and daughters
Bob Jones Sr., (Bob Jones University) benefactor Bob Jones Jr., benefactor Bob Jones III, benefactor Peter Jones.
Bob Schuller (Crystal Cathedral) benefactor son Robert Schuller, Jr
Jerry Farwell (Thomas Roads Baptist Church) benefactor son Jonathan Farwell
Charles Stanley (In Touch Ministries) benefactor son Andy Stanley
John Hagee (John Hagee Ministries) benefactor son Christopher Hagee
Benny Hinn (Faith healing Televangelist) benefactor brother Henry Hinn
I could go on with many others, but I'm sure you two have some reason why tax free money is often spent on life styles becoming those of the Hollywood jet set or are you just going to pick and choose who is “Really a true Christian”?
Just curious: are there any "true" Christians here who would venture to guess how many of the people in Harry's list are "true" Christians? Of course, only God knows for sure...
I have a confession to make: I once filled in a donation form to Rev. Ike with a friend's name, said that I had enclosed twenty bucks, and tore the envelope so it looked as though the (non-existent) money might have fallen out. My unfortunate friend (yes, we're still friends) got quite a lot of mail from the good Reverend as a result.
Zilch my son: I have now heard your confession.
Please do 6 "Hail Marys".
Your sin is forgiven...depart in peace!
"Father Harry"
Ave Maria
Gee it's good to see ya
Ave Maria
Gee it's good to see ya
Ave Maria
Gee it's good to see ya
Ave Maria
Gee it's good to see ya
Ave Maria
Gee it's good to see ya
Ave Maria
Gee it's good to see ya
Thank you Father Harry! That's a tremendous weight off my shoulders! Will that take care of the time I "did it" with an unmarried Catholic in her parent's bed too? Please say it will...
Those guys are abusing it and everyone knows it. the vast majority of Christians know that.
That would explain the wealth of these people.
Oh, and the growing number of them out there. Enough to get the attention of congress.
Good call j.l..
Look at the riches of the Roman Catholic Church, Episcopalian, etc.
Not much different to me.
I grew up in Tulsa there aren't too
many churches that aren't prosperity
based there. Is it really that
much different in other places?
Zilch, my child. My foolish child!
Now we are talking about a Mortal Sin.
Apart from 100 more years in Purgatory, you must do major penitence!
You MUST sell your entire earthly holdings and give the money as a monetary penitence to the Church.
Now, as a broke and destitute sinner, you are to join a monastery of the Benedictine Order where, in prayer, you’ll serve out your wretched life in penitence.
Your case has been forwarded to Rome for review by his Holiness who, regretfully, can not have you burnt at the stake!
“The Grand Inquisitor”
Mark 10:25 "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Peace
Harry- you may be joking about the Holy See, but the old spirit lives on. Soon after I came to Vienna, about twenty years ago, I got into a conversation with a priest. My German wasn't that good back then, so I missed some of the details, but I understood enough, and he was kind enough to speak slowly and clearly. When he found out that I was from California, he started into a long reminiscence about the "good old days", when the Church, in the form of Spain and Portugal, owned all of the Americas. And he said it was a great tragedy that the Church was forced to "gave it up".
I couldn't quite believe what I was hearing, but I found out later that I had been talking to a member of Opus Dei, the spiritual descendent of the Inquisition. Brrr.
I do have a queasiton.
If saying that the Health and Walth Prosperity Gospel is not representitve of Christianity as a whole, and that htose who preach it clealry do not represent Christian teachigns as understold by the majority, is automaticllay a No True Scotsman Fallacy, why is it that citing the fact that the Spviet Union, Communist China, Cuba, and other OCmmunist Remggemes whre Athiestic and base don the same Humanistic principles that are so louded on this blog, and by hte New Wave of Ahtiesm elsewhere, is not a No True Sctosman Fallacy?
Am I expected to ebelive that the deeds done by Atheists, often cruel acts of sheer britality, the oppression, and the desolation fo the Human condition, all carrie dout int he name of an Ideology rooted in the same Ahtiesm, love of a Sicnetiifcally advanced society, and the Ideal of Brotherhood and helping humaniy now, for its own sake, is not implicative agaisnt Athiesm as a whole, and htose who share htose Huamjistic Values, while nevertheless, not only are all Christaisn Universlaly branded byt he Cruel deeds in Hisotry ( even if they are exagerated tot he point of myth), and now by the Prosperity gospel?
It does seem a double standard.
Humanism is claimed by many here, including a recnet post by AZilch, I beelive, to be netter. Ziljch, I think, even said Humanism mayhave taken root earlier had it not been for Christianity, and this was seen as a good thing. ( I realise it was speculaiton, butthe poitn is, clealry Zilch though Humanism woudl improve the world.)
Yet, whensoever that Humanism has been the basis of a society, it has bred tyrany. ( No, the United States asnot base don Humanism.It was badsed mroe on Liberterian ideologies, but thats another matter.)
Dipie this, not all Modern Athiests who cling to Humanist ideals are blamed for this. Nor are all Modern Ahtiests who cling to this said to beleive in oppresison just because Communist natiosn are oprpssive.
But, as a Christain, I have to accept that the Prosperity Gospel is representitive of mybeelifs and hsows it to be corrupt.
Isn't that ludecrous?
OH, and...
Opus Die is not the Spiritual decendant of the Inquesition.It is a Lay order, focuse don helping laymen live mroe Holy lives.
The Holy Office of th Inquesition actulaly still exists in the form of the Congregation Of The Doctrine And Faith.
Likewise, the claims about burnigns at the stake, and heresy trials,and the Inquesition, only show historical ignorance.
The Modern Catholic Churhc woudln't want ot burn anyone, and in fact, the Inqusition never direclty did. They had to turn he accused, once the verdict was passed, tot he state, and the state passed sentence.
Obviously, sicnthe Modern Cahtolic Churhc is largley agaisnt the Death Penalty, and sicne , with the xception fo a fw naitons, the Deaht Penalty no longer exists, that claim is just cobblers.
Then again, what shoudl I expect?
Zarove stated: “Then again, what shoudl I expect?”
Jesus stated: “Our Father which is in Heaven,
Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.”
If God will BURN sinners in Hell, The Lake of Fire (forever), or cause them to suffer pain in Purgatory, then just why, Zarove, do you think without separation between the Church at Rome and the State that the Catholic Church and the Pope’s hands are innocent?
Fact the facts! Without the Catholic Church, hundreds to thousands of humans would not have been burnt.
Anceitn ROme, long prior tot he advent of Christianity, burned at the stake numerous peopel for numerous offences.
So, too, did the tribes of Europe often use this method.
Though strangulaiton or throatslittign was also common.
It was nto unheard of in Greece, and was carrie dout with regularity in Carthage.
The brutality of hte lawcodes Humanity as invented, and its ratioanlisaitons in how they ae to be disposed, long preceed the Christian faith, and , after CHristendom was suppressed and Ahtiesm reinged, was the Soviet Union better? Oh, surley they did not brun at the stake anyone. But, they tortured and killed millions, oftne for beleifs they held.
The point I make is only this, and in several parts.
You are judging a historical situaiton which you do not properly understand via he double lences of mythic hisotry that hasbecome common knowledge andmodern standards.
You cannot judge a mans actions base dupon standards you hodl to in a different culture, much less can you project onto the past society modern values.
That said, the Pope nt he modern world woudl liekly not want to execute anyone shoudl their be a new Iquiesition. Even if the Cahtolci Churhc was given the power to execute criminals, all Major Popes sicne the time of John the 23rd havebeen avocates of imprisonment over the Deaht Penalty, and the standard argument is that the Death Penalty shoudl be invoked only when no othe roption avails itsself.
When oen speaks of th emodenr spirit ofthe Inquesitin still loomign large, and acts as if our only security omr it is a mdoenr culture iwht seperaitn fo Churhc and State, one surly makes a false statment. If the Cahtolci CHurch where givne supreme Powr in Europe, and the Pope made temproal tuler of Europe, ther is no reaosnt ebelive, in todays Cahtolci Churhc and reflected by Todays Pope, that such a thing as those trisl woul even exist, much less that the eaht Penalty woudl eb invoked, and lesser still that the stakes woudl be boguth back.
The Middle Ages, and Ealry modern period, where not our world.
Secular Authorities killed you for stealign a Horse as early as the late 19th century America.
In the 18th century, and ealry 19th ceury, the United Sttaes of America still permitted tarring and feathering as a punishment, for civil crimes, not connected to Religiosiu beelifs.
Base dupon that much mroe recent evidence, shoudl I then say that Americans and Modenr Europeans, even when acitgn as Civil authorities andnot conencted to the Church, will Tar and Feather people? Or kill horse theives?
Or do you admit that I'd be a bit silly for thinkign that?
If so, why am I silly for htinkign a Contemproary Cahtolci Church has also changed in the coruse of years?
That said, it is still nevertheless true that it was the State civil authority which condemned the party to Death, not the Churhc itsself.
And, the punishment was routine for civil offences.
If the Europeans returned to such a model oof govenrance and allwoed Inqusitiins, those found Guilty bthe Chruch woudl be turned over to a Modern, Secular European Court. They woudl eb subject to Modern, Secular authorities and modern Secular punishments. ( Secular not beign oppsoed to the CHurhc in this instance.)
After the CHurch ruled that the accused is guilty of Heresy, the Sttae is likely to either fine him, or improison him for a few months or a year.
That woudl be in keepign wiht the modrn European pracites.
This, and perhaps seeing a Pschiatirst to rehabilitate the Criminal.
That is farmroe likely if the Inqiesuitin was haopenign today, because thats a reflectoun of our legal values.
The same values praised byt he Current Pope.
( And no, he doens praise it because he cannot change it. he condenes a lot fo Modern EUropean pratices and laws.)
Harry, before you get too steamed up on the history you should first read
Earthly Powers: The Clash of Religion and Politics in Europe, from the French Revolution to the Great War
by Michael Burleigh
while it does not paint a good portrait of the Catholic Church in those years it does give an excellent perspective of the Alter vs Throne power struggle and tends to separate the theology of the church and the secular power struggle quite well.
He has a later book that I have not read Sacred Causes: The Clash of Religion and Politics, from the Great War to the War on Terror which promises to be as good and should clarify your thinking.
Sala kahle - peace
Zarove: As the old saying goes; “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.”
No matter how hard you pull forth cases where atheism has killed thousands to millions of people, atheism is simply a godless view controlled by people in charge. In this respect, atheism has no creed or a past based in a loving covenant such as a Bible.
On the other hand, the Catholic Church has a Judeo-Christian past and a Bible to base its actions on, so it is MUCH MORE accountable for its actions.
So, if the secular (and I use this term “secular” very loosely in that the Catholic Church had tremendous power on governments then) medieval government killed heretics and witches, these governments were nothing more than the gun held in the hands of the Catholic Church.
Have you ever heard of the European Witch-Craze and the book the Catholic Church used to check for witches called The Malleus Maleficarum 1486 (the witch hammer).
The Catholic Church used it to try and execute 80,000 to 100,000 witches and heretics in Europe. Protestants were as guilty too.
Your comparison of atheistic government’s actions to the church action is flawed by the fact that the Catholic Church is a Gospel based creedal sect while atheism is simply an open ended term to be used or abused as the government see fit.
Thanks for the suggested reading Akakiwibear. I’ll have to check them out.
Harry
Zarove: As the old saying goes; “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.”
But, at the same time, peopel argue agaisnt Guns.
That said...
No matter how hard you pull forth cases where atheism has killed thousands to millions of people, atheism is simply a godless view controlled by people in charge. In this respect, atheism has no creed or a past based in a loving covenant such as a Bible.
BUT...
Atheism is not the oposite of Christianity, it is the Oposite of Theism. Theism has no creed either. It has no past based on a creed.
Theism is beleif in God, and Ahtiesm is lak of such beleif.
Those two are oposites.
I did not, hwoever, argue that Ahtiesm has killed millions, I argued that the values held by most COntemproary Ateists, namly Humanism, has.
Humanism is a religious beleif system, much liek Christianity, except that it is Atheistic.
You are thus qwuiet right by sayign Ahtiesm has not killed millions, but neither has THeism, and merley beleiving in God is not responcible for a single Death Corrlelay beleifs have ot be added, and the same wudl hodl true for Atheism. But Athiestic Ideologies have proven to be capable of bloodshed, so one cannot sya simplybeign an Ahtiest woudl end that sort of barbarianism in mankind.
On the other hand, the Catholic Church has a Judeo-Christian past and a Bible to base its actions on, so it is MUCH MORE accountable for its actions.
And, all of th emodern Ahtiest I have read lay claim both to the ideals and Principles of the ENlightnment and to the Ideals of Humansim as firts formulated out of those ideals int he 19th centuy.
Again, you rpostiulation of "Atheism" with "Christianity" is in and of itsself meanignless. Atheism is th eoposite of Theism.
But are Ahtietss just Ahtiests? Did Stalin really share no views else in common with modern day folsk lile Sam harris?
The truth is, Stalin wasn't just an Athiest, just as mere theism is not the same as Catholisism.
Stalin was a Societ, whose enture Philosophy was rooted int he Ideals of the Enlightenemnt and bin Humanistic Values.
Everythign you have espouse don this blog, along wiht your confederates, agrees with the basic worldview adopted by Stalin and the Soviets.
You, and the Soviets, both praised Science and wanted a society that was modern and Scientificlaly progressive, and heaivly emphaise theneed or Sceicne as the way we learn abotu our world.
Both you, and the Soviets, lay emphasis on helpign mankind today, not because of a Mythival deity, but out of fellowsheip and ot meet practical, real needs of the people.
Both you, and the Soviets, wanted modern, progressive mroal values base don ideas of Human orogress to be implemented.
In fact, if you look at a Humanist website and at the teachigns of Humansim, and hten read the same sort of list in regards to what he Soviets beleived, tis the same.
So, even though Ahtiesm, which is lakc of beleif in God, didn't kill anyone, neither did Theism, which is beleif in God.
ITs the worldview that incorporates thos things, Humanism and Christainity, we are really dealign with.
As you said, GUns don't kill people, and neither does THeism. Peopel do.
So, if the secular (and I use this term “secular” very loosely in that the Catholic Church had tremendous power on governments then)
Your very ignorant of Histry f you want to claim this, and donot really know of the ;ower struggles between the Nobility and the Clergy.
medieval government killed heretics and witches, these governments were nothing more than the gun held in the hands of the Catholic Church.
Your still just makign excuses, both for Ahtiesm, which you falsly deposit as the reverse of Christendom and exhonerate form brutality by claiming it has no creed ofr central ebelif, and against Cahtolisskm, whose aciosn you do not understand, and bae don events from another era.
To ignore the fact that abolishing Theism woudl not abolish the cruelty mankind is capable of performing is itsslef a vross error, and to ignroe the fact that a godless, Humanistic Ideology can be shared by peopel and still be tainted by the same bloodshed is simply reprehensable.
again, you also ignore the fact that the Midaevel world is not th eModerl world, and still haven't demonstrated why we shoudl beeleive the Modern Catholic Churhc woudl want nayone killed. This is less plausable when you consider how many of the Senior clergy are opposed to the Death Penalty.
John Paul 2 was opposed, as ar emost Cardinals and Bishops worldwide.
So why shoudl I think the Cahtolic CHurhc today, if given any sort of power over the Naitosn of Europe, woudl insteute oen agaisnt Heretics?
Your enture presentation is based upon projecitng onmodern times actiosn that appeend int he past, after distortign that past.
Unless its inovled in an Ahtitsic Philosophy, which you seem to ignore the murderous streak to and claim that Athism has no creed.
Have you ever heard of the European Witch-Craze and the book the Catholic Church used to check for witches called The Malleus Maleficarum 1486 (the witch hammer).
Of coruse I have, but unlie you, I have also studied the hisotry of that book by Kramer.
Did you knwo that Witch trials happened long before Christianity emerged?
DId you knwo that the Malleus Malifactorum was acutlaly not used by the CHurhc, but was adopted by Secular judges?
Did you know that many Bishops opposed its method, and some even refused to have the witchhunters into their Diocese?
Or shoudl we ignfoe htis base don the mythic hisoty of the CHruhc nburing withces and modenr, enlightene ahtiest such as yourself not being capable of such?
Come now.
The Catholic Church used it to try and execute 80,000 to 100,000 witches and heretics in Europe. Protestants were as guilty too.
You are not beign Honest.
Only about 30'000 ever died form the witch trials in an 800 year span. Most where not killed continuously year by year, and the crazes happene din spurts. Likewise, the bulk of the witch trials whre not conduictedby the Catholic CHurhc, or their Protestant counterparts, but by Civil authorities.
Even the Malleus Malifactorum was mainly used by Civil Authorities, after the Churhc had rejected it.
Numeorus Bishops opposed the withc trials ahte itme of Kramer.
So shoudl I ignroe this real hisotyre to go along with the myths that make Christendom look bad?
Of course i shoudl, because that'd make you happy to knwo how rotten tot he core Christaintiy is.
Your comparison of atheistic government’s actions to the church action is flawed by the fact that the Catholic Church is a Gospel based creedal sect while atheism is simply an open ended term to be used or abused as the government see fit.
And your use of the term "Ahtiesm" as a noncreedal and open ended hting is flawed, because THeism is just as Open ended. Nevertheless, the sme beelifs that Underlie the modern-day Humanist posiiton, and contemproary Ahtist htought, is foudn in the SOviet Ideology,a nd you share a good deal more than mere lack of beleif in God.
Also, coudln't one argue that the rulign Govenrments at the itme in the Middle Ages also just used Cahtolsisim as a tool, and abused it? Or woudl you thik thats a No true scotsman fallacy?
WHy shoudl I acceot the Midaevel govenrmental actsn doen int hename of Cahtolsisim as Cahtlsisim?
And, why shoudl I htink Modern Cahtolsiism is identical toht emidaevel counerpart?
And whyshudl I buy into your false hisotry about Cahtolsisim which inflates the deaht toll and increases the blame fo the CHurch artifically?
Atheists had better hope they're right! At least if we Christians are wrong, we have nothing(literally) to worry about. I think most of us can agree on one thing: the Truth is what it is, and it is our subjective identity to find out(or not) what It
is.
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