The So-Called Unique Transformative Power of Christianity
Here’s my response to some interesting questions about the so-called unique transformative power of Christianity.
Anonymous said...
Cheers.
Anonymous said...
You stated that when you became a Christian it delivered you from a hard life of drugs and so forth. If you hadn’t had your ‘Christian experience’ do you think you would have been able to over come your struggles?Most certainly, since I grew older. And even if the Christian faith did help me overcome my juvenile delinquency that says nothing about the truth of the Christian faith. It only shows the power of an individual person’s faith, regardless of the object of that faith.
Anon: Are you aware of any atheist testimonies relating to an individuals rationalism delivering them from a life of drugs and alcohol?Young male atheists who decide to settle down by getting married and having children, plenty of them. Atheist prisoners who decide to go straight when released. Atheists who simply decide they deserve better than a life of drugs, plenty of them. And the basis for their decision is not because of any authoritarian approach to living life based on an outdated superstitious barbaric Bible, but rather as the result of thinking for themselves. By contrast, I know plenty of Christians who live a life filled with prescription drugs, even illegal narcotics, and alcohol. The Christian people I know from being a counselor in the churches I’ve served have just as many psychological problems and addictions as atheists.
Anon: This is just to satisfy my own curiosity, I have found Christianities transformative power as some rather convincing evidence in it’s support.If so then you need to read what Ed Babinski wrote about it.
Anon: You stated that there was an event that happened and based on that event your Christian community abandoned you. You stated that if they hadn’t responded in the way they did you might still very well be a Christian today.No one knows what would’ve resulted if something different had happened in his or her life, that’s all. Do you know if you would still be a believer today if you were raised by an atheist, or if a preacher/priest you trusted molested you, or your daughter? No one knows, except God, if he exists. And if he does exist and he knew what it would’ve taken to keep me in the fold, and he didn’t do what it took, even though Christians themselves are morally obligated to do what it takes to keep people like me in the fold, then God failed miserably in my case. He's also a hypocrite. His motto is this: “Do as I say but not as I do.” And he really does not love people like me either, for now all that awaits me according to your faith, is everlasting hell. And he doesn’t care about anyone I will reach with this Blog or my book, if he foreknew I would do this once I left the fold. You’d think a foreknowing God would’ve given Hitler a heart attack before starting WWII, and that he would’ve done whatever it took to keep me in the fold. Don’t tell me he couldn’t do this, otherwise God cannot answer any prayers for the salvation of another person, or prayers for Christian people who are experiencing doubts. And he couldn’t turn the hearts of kings as he said either: "The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases." (Proverbs 21:1)
Anon: So how do I not take your book and this blog as your emotional response to a perceived slight by God and Christians?There is an emotional component to all decisions that have to do with our personal lives. This is unavoidable since we are not logical machines. We are persons with feelings, and as such, we react emotionally to stimuli. I could just as well ask you if your decision to become a Christian was an emotional one based upon hearing the most wonderful story of a father-type God who loved you so much to die for you, even though no sense can be made of the existence of such a triune God who didn’t cease being divine when he became incarnated in a human being, who supposedly died on the cross for your sins, even though no sense can be made about why his death was necessary for this, and even though there isn’t enough evidence to believe in any of this, including the claim that he arose from the dead, which is subsequently disconfirmed by the fact that Jesus did not return to earth as he predicted in the lifetimes of the people of his era.
Anon: I appreciate your time.No problem. I treat reasonable people reasonably, and you seem reasonable.
Cheers.
35 comments:
During my couple years as a born-again Christian in my late teens, I always felt hypocritical when sharing my faith because I knew that I had not found the inner peace that I had claimed to find. I liked the people and the Bible studies, but I still suffered from the depression that plagued me until I found Welbutrin twenty years later.
I have no doubt that some people undergo real transformations, but I suspect (and suspected then) that a lot of people just say that they feel transformed because that is how they are supposed to feel.
We have empirical scientific methods of determining transformation. IT's not a matter of anecdotes. It is not a matter of just saying "I feel so much better now." There are scales that measure types of psychological adjustment and authentication. There are empirical about drug use and its cessation after religious experience. There are empirical studies about the rate of depression and mental illness among religious experience vs non experiences.
These things do prove the existence of God. Come debate me in a formal debate and I will demontrate that. I say this not just because I like debate but because there is no room here to make that argument. We would need the open spaces of a real debate to let all the arguments unfold.
you are cheating yourself by not doing it. Because, I know this sounds arrogant and I don't mean to, but I believe I would really show you something.
I can and have proven the existence of God about four ways now.
Joe, all you do is provide evidence that there might be some sort of nebulous higher power out there. You may not realize that you cannot claim it's anything more than this. Your God is NOT, I repeat NOT the God of Christianity, unless he is also the God of Buddhism, an unspecified spiritual force or entity. Moving from your arguments to a specific exclusive Christianity is like trying to fly a plane to the moon, and as such it's an uninteresting argument to me.
"Anon: Are you aware of any atheist testimonies relating to an individuals rationalism delivering them from a life of drugs and alcohol?"
How about this?
As a evangelical Christian, I began seriously struggling with an addiction to pornography and began to have serious anger issues. Because of these issues, the relationship I had with my then girlfriend was going down the drain. As I identified these problems, I began praying harder, reading the bible more, going to church more, etc... I was doing everything I believed would help me overcome these problems. However, it wasn't until I abandoned my faith and started living a life that is rooted in reality that I was able to overcome these problems. I am now happily married to that same girlfriend with three kids, and my life is much more fulfilled than it ever was as a Christian. I have also become much more successful at my job and am the envy of many Christians that I work with (I have been told many times by these Christians that they want to emulate my behavior).
There are scales that measure types of psychological adjustment and authentication. There are empirical about drug use and its cessation after religious experience. There are empirical studies about the rate of depression and mental illness among religious experience vs non experiences.
Narconon! Criminon! All hail the perfection of L. Ron Hubbard's tech for overcoming the ravages of Xenu, the Galactic Overlord!
Let's look at the success rate of Alcoholics Anonymous, the most popular religious addiction program.
Project MATCH by the NIAAA found no difference between AA and other twelve-step faith-based programs and secular treatment programs based on Cognitive Behavioral Coping Skills Therapy or Motivational Enhancement Therapy.
I say this not just because I like debate but because there is no room here to make that argument. We would need the open spaces of a real debate to let all the arguments unfold.
What? You're saying that you have "insufficient space" in an unlimited comment thread with hyperlinking allowed? What, do you require 3D models?
I can and have proven the existence of God about four ways now.
Just show me that witch that raises people from the dead and I'll be convinced.
The plural of anecdote is not data.
I have to agree with anon in one thing. If there was a unique and measurable transformative power in christianity, I would certainly take that as evidence for god.
Unfortunately for anon, this is not the case.
My transformation from Christianity to Atheism was much more powerful than when I first became a christian. As a christian, I kept thinking, 'god help me.'
As an atheist, I realized I had to help myself. That's the transformative power of atheism.
wow, I'm sort of an idiot for saying that anecdotal evidence doesn't mean anything, and then providing an anecdote.
My perspective is that it doesn't matter if some people 'feel god' or have their lives transformed. I gave an honest effort to be a Christian, and it didn't work. Unless someone can demonstrate otherwise, I'm going with my own experience.
Joe, all you do is provide evidence that there might be some sort of nebulous higher power out there. You may not realize that you cannot claim it's anything more than this.
(1) I don't see why I have to do more than that. you have to experince God. It's not a words on paper kind of thing. there is some "ambiguous" power, you have to experience that and form your own relationship with it.
(2) sure I can, but not in this text box.
Your God is NOT, I repeat NOT the God of Christianity, unless he is also the God of Buddhism, an unspecified spiritual force or entity.
show me anywhere in the bible where it say "God is the Christian God and no one else's God?" Paul said he put people where they live so they will seek him and find him.
that has to mean he's Tao, the Buddha mind, all of it. (see Acts 17:12-29
what did Paul tell the Greek Philosophers? "you already worship him, now I'll tell who he is.
Moving from your arguments to a specific exclusive Christianity is like trying to fly a plane to the moon, and as such it's an uninteresting argument to me.
I don't need an exclusive Christianity. that was your mistake. you were in the wrong end of things.
Meat:There are scales that measure types of psychological adjustment and authentication. There are empirical about drug use and its cessation after religious experience. There are empirical studies about the rate of depression and mental illness among religious experience vs non experiences.
Narconon! Criminon! All hail the perfection of L. Ron Hubbard's tech for overcoming the ravages of Xenu, the Galactic Overlord!
that is totally unfair and ridiculous. Obviously you are not well studied on the matter. These are valid scales developed by real shirnks in the academy. People like the great sociologist Abraham Maslow and Ralph Hood whose "M" scale has become standard.
Let's look at the success rate of Alcoholics Anonymous, the most popular religious addiction program.
that's a straw man and it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. AA merely has a philosopher. I said experince, not philosophy experince. you experience it. people who have religious experince, not merely people who quotes sayings about having an higher people, people have actual experiences of God's presence.
you can get that through TM, through eastern forms of mediation, or western forms or prayer.
Project MATCH by the NIAAA found no difference between AA and other twelve-step faith-based programs and secular treatment programs based on Cognitive Behavioral Coping Skills Therapy or Motivational Enhancement Therapy.
that's because they did not have peak experince. this has nothing to do with that.
you come over to my boards and I'll explain it to you.
I "say this not just because I like debate but because there is no room here to make that argument. We would need the open spaces of a real debate to let all the arguments unfold."
What? You're saying that you have "insufficient space" in an unlimited comment thread with hyperlinking allowed? What, do you require 3D models?
yes
(1) you guys control the zap button
(2) I have rhemes of material, page upon page.
(3) you are not going to let me present a major argument here int his box.
(4) I think this is the kicker, I want people to see it, just like you. you want all the advantages, it's your home turf and all. that's not fair debate. We culd find a nuetral place, like CARE atheist board.
I can and have proven the existence of God about four ways now.
Just show me that witch that raises people from the dead and I'll be convinced.
my father was dead and came back to life and at the time he was dead, I was dreaming that he came to me and told me it would be ok. He was dead about 20 minutes.
I met a guy who my professor knows who was dead three days in moruge and came back. I talked to him.
If you want to discuss it further come here
have to agree with anon in one thing. If there was a unique and measurable transformative power in christianity, I would certainly take that as evidence for god.
Unfortunately for anon, this is not the case.
O yes there sure is and I have a ton of empirical studies to prove it. I have at least 326 and counting.
My transformation from Christianity to Atheism was much more powerful than when I first became a christian. As a christian, I kept thinking, 'god help me.'
see what he does. He denies the empirical evidence having read not one word of it, but he's so suer it doesn't exist he just refuses to believe it, then he uses his own anecdotal evidence in place of having his own data.
I was ana theist. I was raised in a fundie family then becamse an atheist. so I know what you are saying it can seem like when you go from bad religion to do your own thing you think its tranformative. but it's nothing compared to findit the real thing. nothing.
the thing is you are talking about holding a belief.I'm talking about really actually experiencing something!
My perspective is that it doesn't matter if some people 'feel god' or have their lives transformed. I gave an honest effort to be a Christian, and it didn't work. Unless someone can demonstrate otherwise, I'm going with my own experience.
nope not it. not just a bunch of people saying I feel good. It's mesaureable change across the board. when they compare non religious smokers to reilgious smokers they even fair better then so even religous smokers do better health wise than non religous.
Measurable concrete change, health, mental health, sense of self authentication, and other things.
data here
that's a no go. If it was really across the board, I would have been effected.
If you want to get me to look at your research, please display it in a way that makes sense. I'm more than happy to look at double-blind studies published in peer-reviewed journals. If you provide me with a list of such citations, I will look them up. If you provide a summary, or the abstract, even better.
If you really have 300+ of them, that shouldn't be difficult. Just send me 10. That should be more than enough. I patiently await your reply.
Sweet, I got my own post. Thanks for taking the time to respond John.
I have a follow on question regarding a statement you made.
And if he does exist and he knew what it would’ve taken to keep me in the fold, and he didn’t do what it took, even though Christians themselves are morally obligated to do what it takes to keep people like me in the fold, then God failed miserably in my case.
I've never heard an argument like this before, what is your reasoning behind it?
Well, Anonymous got his or her own post and look what I got in return: Anon said...I've never heard an argument like this before!
Cool!
Anon also said...what is your reasoning behind it?
I could write it out more in detail but I don't have the time. Maybe others can. I think it's self-explanatory, don't you?
I don't think it's self explanatory, and what's with the condescending remarks every time someone asks you to clarify a point?
What is the basis for your argument that Christians are morally obligated to prevent someone from walking away from the fold?
You also stated that God, (if he exists), is obligated to prevent someone from walking away. I was under the assumption that there are arguments/evidence both for and against the existence of a higher power. Individuals weigh the evidence and make their decision. I've never heard someone state that God should know what would convince them of his existence, and if He didn't provide said evidence then it's His fault, (if he exists), not theirs that they walk away. It's our job as rational human beings to gather the evidence, and make a decision based on that evidence.
It sounds like you are blaming others for what was your decision. Is this what you are saying, that if God does exists he should have known better than to let you go through this emotional turmoil that caused you to reject your faith?
Again, I appreciate your time. It is both fun and enlightening to be able to interact with an author on the subject they are passionate about.
Giving Hitler a heart attack? Why just not create evil to begin with, thats the real doozy! I know you've studied the problem of evil, I just don't understand how you come to the conclusion that God is required to intervene in the manner you describe?
that's a no go. If it was really across the board, I would have been effected.
(1) you didn't have mystical experince.
(2) across the board the affects run the scale of human aliments and advantages, not necessarily that every single individual will experince them.
If you want to get me to look at your research, please display it in a way that makes sense. I'm more than happy to look at double-blind studies published in peer-reviewed journals. If you provide me with a list of such citations, I will look them up. If you provide a summary, or the abstract, even better.
can't you see the sites listed with the quote?
If you really have 300+ of them, that shouldn't be difficult. Just send me 10. That should be more than enough. I patiently await your reply.
did you read page 2?
the sites are listed with the material
this was right there on p2 for anyone to see
lso called Transcendent Experiences, Ego-Transcendence, Intense Religious Experience, Peak Experiences, Mystical Experiences, Cosmic Consciousness. Sources:
Wuthnow, Robert (1978). "Peak Experiences: Some Empirical Tests." Journal of Humanistic Psychology, 18 (3), 59-75.
Noble, Kathleen D. (1987). ``Psychological Health and the Experience of Transcendence.'' The Counseling Psychologist, 15 (4), 601-614.
Lukoff, David & Francis G. Lu (1988). ``Transpersonal psychology research review: Topic: Mystical experiences.'' Journal of Transpersonal Psychology, 20 (2), 161-184.
Roger Walsh (1980). The consciousness disciplines and the behavioral sciences: Questions of comparison and assessment. American Journal of Psychiatry, 137(6), 663-673.
Lester Grinspoon and James Bakalar (1983). ``Psychedelic Drugs in Psychiatry'' in Psychedelic Drugs Reconsidered, New York: Basic Books.
Furthermore, Greeley found no evidence to support the orthodox belief that frequent mystic experiences or psychic experiences stem from deprivation or psychopathology. His ''mystics'' were generally better educated, more successful economically, and less racist, and they were rated substantially happier on measures of psychological well-being. (Charles T. Tart, Psi: Scientific Studies of the Psychic Realm, p. 19.)
Long-Term Effects
Wuthnow:
*Say their lives are more meaningful,
*think about meaning and purpose
*Know what purpose of life is
Meditate more
*Score higher on self-rated personal talents and capabilities
*Less likely to value material possessions, high pay, job security, fame, and having lots of friends
*Greater value on work for social change, solving social problems, helping needy
*Reflective, inner-directed, self-aware, self-confident life style
Noble:
*Experience more productive of psychological health than illness
*Less authoritarian and dogmatic
*More assertive, imaginative, self-sufficient
*intelligent, relaxed
*High ego strength,
*relationships, symbolization, values,
*integration, allocentrism,
*psychological maturity,
*self-acceptance, self-worth,
*autonomy, authenticity, need for solitude,
*increased love and compassion
Short-Term Effects (usually people who did not previously know of these experiences)
*Experience temporarily disorienting, alarming, disruptive
*Likely changes in self and the world,
*space and time, emotional attitudes, cognitive styles, personalities, doubt sanity and reluctance to communicate, feel ordinary language is inadequate
*Some individuals report psychic capacities and visionary experience destabilizing relationships with family and friends Withdrawal, isolation, confusion, insecurity, self-doubt, depression, anxiety, panic, restlessness, grandiose religious delusions
Links to Maslow's Needs, Mental Health, and Peak Experiences When introducing entheogens to people, I find it's helpful to link them to other ideas people are familiar with. Here are three useful quotations. 1) Maslow - Beyond Self Actualization is Self Transcendence ``I should say that I consider Humanistic, Third Force Psychology to be transitional, a preparation for a still `higher' Fourth Psychology, transhuman, centered in the cosmos rather than in human needs and interest, going beyond humanness, identity, selfactualization and the like.''
Abraham Maslow (1968). Toward a Psychology of Being, Second edition, -- pages iii-iv.
And if he does exist and he knew what it would’ve taken to keep me in the fold, and he didn’t do what it took, even though Christians themselves are morally obligated to do what it takes to keep people like me in the fold, then God failed miserably in my case.
O poor you.I don't have pain, nothing bad has ever happened to me.
Giving Hitler a heart attack? Why just not create evil to begin with, thats the real doozy! I know you've studied the problem of evil, I just don't understand how you come to the conclusion that God is required to intervene in the manner you describe?
7:59 PM, Januar
God is not required to do anything. God did not create evil. Evil is the absense of the good not a positive force.
God's intervention is intermittent, it has a specific purpose in each instance, it only comes when certain things are met.
It's not done to make everyone feel better. It's not a whim it's in response to faith, timing, purose, and other things.
I don't understand the point of religious conversion stories coming from people with a track records of making stupid choices. Wouldn't christians rather point to converts who had a record of good judgment before they "found Jesus"? Young people normally try to imitate adults in their environment they perceive as competent and successful, and we worry about the kids who adopt criminals, drug addicts, sexual deviates, etc. as role models.
How can one attribute a personal change to any god, when so many people (including me) have made similar incredible changes withOUT the help of any god. Using such examples as "proof" is illogical. Does my working through my own problems discredit god? No more than it proves god. Maybe it means that *I* am god? Oh dear... I won't go there! :-)
We've all heard about the "healing power" of prayer. Of course, scientific studies have shown us that I'd have a better chance of surviving surgery and recovery if NO ONE prays for me! It's a shame that any god would hurt - or not help - someone because they were prayed for!
The placebo effect works - that's been proven empirically. Self-hypnosis works for some, but not for others. Any god can be put into such the category with placebo, hypnosis, self-delusion, etc. etc. I put it in with mental illness. But that's just IMHO.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html
(clip)
"And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.
Because it is the most scientifically rigorous investigation of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients, has for years been the subject of speculation."
Joe said...Evil is the absense of the good not a positive force.
Joe, would you put this in terms of suffering? That's what we're talking about when discussing the problem of suffering. Are you saying that being burned alive during the witch hunt is somehow a lack, or that such suffering doesn't exist since evil doesn't exist except as a negation of the good? That's just absurd.
Besides, if you say evil doesn't exist except as a negation of the good, then it has no metaphysical grounding...it doesn't really exist. And since that's the case your solution to the problem of suffering is a concessionary one. YOU CONCEDE THAT IT WORKS! Since the problem of suffering only works as an argument when one admits there is evil, you concede that it works and merely deny that premise. But Augustine's solution produces his own separate problems.
Mark Plus,
I don't understand the point of religious conversion stories coming from people with a track records of making stupid choices.
I often have the same reaction: "I am glad to hear that you are no longer a wife-beating drug-addicted Satan worshiper, but I really don't really think I want to make you my life coach."
J. I.
Most Buddhists do not believe in God or Gods.
Several Buddhist monks have allowed researchers to observe their minds during and after meditation using various brain imaging techniques. They've found there are biological reasons for their states of mind which can be generated by directing one's focus and practicing mindfulness. Monks who had decades of practice continued to exhibit the same brain activity for several hours after ending their medication session. This is in contrast to a few minutes for laymen or relatively new students.
Once you learn this technique, you can become more aware of your surroundings, concentrate better and make more informed decisions. Buddhism also provides insight on how our minds work and reveals motivations we might normally not be aware of.
For example, you might be camping at your favorite campground, but then hear a owl that is specific to the camp's location. Hearing the owl can trigger a feeling of longing to visit the camp, even though you're actually at the campsite that very moment. We experience these sorts of thoughts and emotions all the time, but often don't realize it or understand them.
This knowledge often result in what would be considered "better outcomes" and more happier lives, since we can cut down on and see though all the "chatter" that is constantly distracting us from the task at hand - being present in the here and now.
No mysterious supernatural being or experience is required. In fact, It's all common sense once you become aware of the process of how our minds work.
often have the same reaction: "I am glad to hear that you are no longer a wife-beating drug-addicted Satan worshiper, but I really don't really think I want to make you my life coach."
And this is compared to a life coach that cleaned up their act after being threatened with eternal damnation by an invisible being? If these sort of threats are required, what is their real motivation?
I am prepared to debate this at length with evidence:
Here, please come.
I don't understand the point of religious conversion stories coming from people with a track records of making stupid choices.
I often have the same reaction: "I am glad to hear that you are no longer a wife-beating drug-addicted Satan worshiper, but I really don't really think I want to make you my life coach."
I see. so you really don't believe people can be changed by the power of God? Vin
I see. so you really don't believe people can be changed by the power of God? Vin
I don't think that is it. It is more that I don't know how to tell the difference between someone who has undergone a supernatural transformation and someone who has simply decided to be less of an idiot.
Joe, would you put this in terms of suffering? That's what we're talking about when discussing the problem of suffering. Are you saying that being burned alive during the witch hunt is somehow a lack, or that such suffering doesn't exist since evil doesn't exist except as a negation of the good? That's just absurd.
Frankly I'm speechless. I don't want to be insulting but I think it should be oblivious, the distinction between a metaphysical appraisal of what evil is, vs the description of the effects of it.
evil is the absences of the good. injustice is the absences of the good. It has concrete effects when people do things that lack goodness, does that mean the source of evil metaphysically has to be concrete? I don't' think so.
Besides, if you say evil doesn't exist except as a negation of the good, then it has no metaphysical grounding...it doesn't really exist. And since that's the case your solution to the problem of suffering is a concessionary one.
are you trying to confuses the effects of evil with a metaphysical account of its source? Evil is like cold air. There is no such thing as radiant cold. Is is only the absence of heat. That's how air conditioning works, it doesn't create cold air, it takes out the heat. But it can create the illusion of creation of radiant cold because the air is radiant and it has less heat.
YOU CONCEDE THAT IT WORKS! Since the problem of suffering only works as an argument when one admits there is evil, you concede that it works and merely deny that premise. But Augustine's solution produces his own separate problems.
sorry, that doesn't make any sense at all.
again I think you are trying substitute suffering for the metaphysical source of evil rater than understanding one as the cause and the other as the effect.
7:17 AM, January 31, 2008
I see. so you really don't believe people can be changed by the power of God? Vin
I don't think that is it. It is more that I don't know how to tell the difference between someone who has undergone a supernatural transformation and someone who has simply decided to be less of an idiot.
I don't think you can really decide that. I knew a guy once who was a crooked cop. He claimed to be a sociopath when he was a crooked cop. Then he got saved and he had compassion and felt emotions. Now maybe he had them all along, but he didn't think he did. I think that was a dramatic change the he could not just decide to have. Some might say he was faking it, but I saw him being pretty emotional and he never did anything to hurt or scam me so I don't that's that the case.
I don't think you can really decide that.
My point exactly.
To John Loftus~ As being new on the block and after reading the exchange it looks like J.L. Hinman knocked you the HECK OUT...that was like and Ali 1st rounder or an old Tyson 30 second(er). Nice try though.
And for Josh to speak against anecdotal evidence and proceed to offer his own anecdote almost made me fall out of my seat...(LOL) That was a good one.
So far as me, let me catch up on the arguments for a minute before chiming in to deeply. One thing I can say is that although logic is good in many cases, God is greater than logic so logic cannot contain God, therefore it's backwards to think that God has to be constrained in any way by logic to communicate or deal with mankind. To do so would make logic superior to God.
That may be off the points being made here but most of what I read has this little fallacy at it's heart. It'll be ok though.
The tone of the first blog post, from Loftus, itsself is rather Hostile to the claims of transformation, and in fact seems rather aggressive.
The dismissals of the Testamonial evidence from Christians while he accepts the same testimonial evidence from Atheists is like when he tries to limit the discussion on te Bible to prove that it has generatedmore evil than good by saying the good could have come from elsewhere.
The truth is, the cold, hostile tone that I note is found in several Atheistic posts and articles and books, whereas, even thoufh Christians can do the same, it is much less of an occurance in the proffessional writtings of Chrstians, and certainly not somethign that seems to grow as one develops ones faaith.
And, this, to me, is suggestive of a difference.
The Atheists have a larger percentage of condecending and hostile statements, usually aimd at the Christian, whre the Christian seems more polite, on average.
I grant you, this is an average, but nevertheless, it is somethignt o go by.
but then, even the Polite Ahtiests aren't a goo dindicator, as the whole of the Western world developed on Christian principles, the Ahtiest can eaisly have adopted Christian moral ethics by osmosis, form the ambeint surroundings, to explain his good behaviour.
and htis is actulaly mroe valid an argument for a moral Atheist, than the Atheist aruing the Bible has causedmroe evil than good by cliaming the Bible contians no moral teachign that could not have been found elsewhere.
One thing I can say is that although logic is good in many cases, God is greater than logic so logic cannot contain God, therefore it's backwards to think that God has to be constrained in any way by logic to communicate or deal with mankind. To do so would make logic superior to God.
So God can make round squares and rocks so immutable even God can't change them?
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